Break the Trinity System Please

[Delily]

Supports would just enhance the game is all.

And yes, Supports for the sake of enjoyment alone is a worthy reason for implementation.

It's a GAME.

No, if you NEED a support class, it means you've weakened all your other classes simply to have a support class.


This thread boils down into having more interesting fight mechanics that would encourage people to use their CC and support abilities more.

[Gramul]

No, if you NEED a support class, it means you've weakened all your other classes simply to have a support class.

I dunno.
Are Tanks weaker for having to rely on Healers?
Are DD's weaker for not being able to take as many hits as a Tank?
Are Healers any weaker for not being able to attack as hard as DD's?

Mechanically they could just make it where you, as a solo character, where fully capable of fighting anything. The 3 role system is as arbitrary as any other RPG structure. The battles in this game are just designed around it.

[silentwindfr]

Are Tanks weaker for having to rely on Healers?
Are DD's weaker for not being able to take as many hits as a Tank?
Are Healers any weaker for not being able to attack as hard as DD's?

the question is more:
do the support will make up for the difference of dps?
do the support will bring anything to the group worth the loose of one dps and the increase of the duration of the fight?
do the support will be able to level up without rely to a whole group?

and the more important one:
do a lot of player will really play it? or do it will simply be played by a small number of player?

don't get me wrong i'm the first at think that the trinity have simplify way too much the mmorpg...sadly, we are forced to admit that dev in the last 10 years didn't make anything that worth the add of a support.

[Gramul]

the question is more:
do the support will make up for the difference of dps?
do the support will bring anything to the group worth the loose of one dps and the increase of the duration of the fight?
do the support will be able to level up without rely to a whole group?

and the more important one:
do a lot of player will really play it? or do it will simply be played by a small number of player?

That's not really the point I'm trying to make. I'm not really sure how to clarify what I'm trying to say, but I'll give it a shot and try to retroactively address your questions too.
Let's say this game started out as you being able to destroy any enemy before it kills you. But then they patched it so that you need someone to take the brunt of damage because it's too much for you to take.
Then they patch it again so you need healers to manage overall damage because they hit even harder now.
If they where to add more stat boosters and downers that lasted for longer periods, we would need a job to counteract that.

The only reason we don't see ourselves as weaker for relying on each other is because we already do. We're used to it.

People play as healers and tanks because they're needed and because they are fun to play. A stat based job would be no different if implemented well. Things like strong poisons and being able to weaken certain defenses could help solo players not feel so helpless.
The problem is, so much of the game is already designed around the trinity system that it would need a lot of reworking to make it relevant for past content. And I can't see them doing that, or players being happy with the initial change.

I wouldn't call it arbitrary, more emergent.

Emergent gameplay was the intent behind 1.0. With players being able to cross class more viable skills, but that was never fully realized.
This game is constructed on the trinity idea. It demands it of the playerbase.

[Delily]

Emergent gameplay was the intent behind 1.0. With players being able to cross class more viable skills, but that was never fully realized.
This game is constructed on the trinity idea. It demands it of the playerbase.

I was referring more to the path themepark MMOs have taken, not strictly 1.0 to 2.0. The trinity system tank/heals/dps is the most slimmed down design you can build a game against given that players will always look for ways to increase damage output.

[Delily]

I dunno.
Are Tanks weaker for having to rely on Healers?
Are DD's weaker for not being able to take as many hits as a Tank?
Are Healers any weaker for not being able to attack as hard as DD's?

Mechanically they could just make it where you, as a solo character, where fully capable of fighting anything. The 3 role system is as arbitrary as any other RPG structure. The battles in this game are just designed around it.

I wouldn't call it arbitrary, more emergent. I could go through a whole history, but I would say it's really the simplest design around which to design and balance a game. Once you NEED a support class to fight (FFXI, EQ, DAoC), you run into the problem that they generally are the lowest played classes around,since they're usually not very interesting. (Seriously, we have a tank shortage as is right now). I think FFXIV's design of spreading out support and CC to the various jobs is an excellent compromise, but that the designers need to build encounters that encourage people to use their CC and enhance skills more.