A fundamental flaw with FL (and PvP in general)

[Divinemight]

Suck at killing healers? Go learn how to play in WD. Simple as that.

I dont think both sdies are on the same page. The real issue with healers are from having too much tools for offensive, crowd controlling, and healing ability that signficantly decreased DPS's output time on the healer. During 8 v 8 combat over the node, this uptime is futher reduced by healer's teammates. I personally dont think WD experience would help anyone here. Unless you are running with a 3 man premade yourself, most of pug healer will just die pretty fast by opposite's 3 man premade team. DPS players wont get improve by playing WD.

[Shake0615]

The real issue with healers are from having too much tools for 1) offensive, 2) crowd controlling, and 3) healing ability that signficantly decreased DPS's output time on the healer.

1) I agree that a healer should not be able to compete with any damage that a melee or DD caster should do in theory. But the thing is that if a healer is able to put out any damage at all, it's because no one is pressuring them. That's a team problem, not a balance problem. If a Scholar is DoT'ing people up or a White Mage is spamming Holy it's because they have no one to heal and they're given free reign to deal damage. A healer simply should not be given this option because they should be pressured the moment they appear on the battlefield. If they choose to deal damage in lieu of healing in the hopes that they can wipe out your party before needing to heal, then they're taking a tactical risk that may or may not pay off.

2) White Mages have Repose, Fluid Aura, and Stone. Each one can be easily countered by an attentive player so this is really a non-issue. Everyone has multiple ways of breaking (or more importantly, pre-empting) crowd controlling effects.

3) In order to survive in FL, healers have to gimp their own healing to be more survivable. It's standard practice to have healers go full Vit in PvP traits and equip the best tank accessories. But it's a trade-off. If you want big heals, you'll be easier to kill. If you want more survivability, you'll have to decrease healing output. That being said, the notion that healers can significantly outperform competent DDs is completely spurious.

[tehomegaking]

DPS players wont get improve by playing WD.

Sorry but this is just stupid. You don't learn anything in FL because you rely on zerg to get the job done. In such hectic situations, the subtlies of combat are lost in numbers countering combat dynamics. To truly learn, you need to learn in a small scale environment where you have full awareness of whats going on and the luxury of 3+ other players covering for your mistake is removed. 90% of success is based on understanding the system, the nuances and dynamics between the classes. Until players learn all this, they should expect to have problems everywhere. This is why 99% of all FL generation players suck.

If you are unable to see why your healing potency is stronger than dps potency in ilvl80 PvP, you are really just trying to defend your own job instead of being a true PvPer.

In otherwise, if you ignore a key dynamic of healing and come to any other conclusion that that of my own, you are not a true pvp'r? Get real.

The real issue with healers are from having too much tools for offensive,

And yet again you completely ignore the fact that we can't cast if we are focused outside of ONE SKILL. Swiftcast, thats it. Our only other methods of casting are via situation safety skills. They are situational because, you need to be either A: stun immune, or B: at too far a distance to be stunned to use surecast. Same goes for equanmity, and both are subject to pushback. So we have swiftcast as our one viable means of guaranteeing we can use these offensive tools. Outside of that, we have a 30 second cooldown that can easily be made useless, then theres the once every 2 and a half minitues of equanmity that much like surecast, can be easily be rendered useless.
So we have no means of using these offensive tools if people focus us.
Leave a healer unfocused? Well thats on you/your team.

edit: yeah we have the instant aero/bio/misama 2. but they are hardly worth complaining about

Frontline players felt healers are too strong simply because healers have all the tools for offense, crowd control

We have one reliable CC on both heal classes, fluid aura (whm) and aura blast (sch) and then melee countering us with feterward/hg oh and purify/tempered which can be used much more liberally on DPS, on heals we need to save them. Outside of that? Guess what, our CC's have a 2 and a half second cast. Everything I mentioned above applies here. Nothing is reliable outside of swifcast to apply these CC's and scholar doesn't have any.


ITT: People who have no idea how healers work, trying to tell us how things are, lol.

I am strongly suggest you try to play other job on the Fronline and seeing other job's PoV instead of being trapped in one job's tunnel visioned world.

I'd strongly suggest you stop talking about things you don't understand.

[Divinemight]

I'd strongly suggest you stop talking about things you don't understand.

This is exactly why I am saying both sides are not on the same page. While healer side is defending themselves from pure healer's PoV, the otherside is having issue with those players who turned healer role into a dps role by taking advantage of healer's mechanics.

Since it is very important and i need to to quote it since you seems misunderstand me:

The issue is with those players who use healers (Scholar or White Mage) as DPS role.

Turn on your cleric stance and we get? A fully self functional DPS with high CC ability, medium DPS output ability, and high healing ability. These players mainly show up and attack outpost. They are more tanky than both Paladins and Warriors with damage output that par with DPS jobs by using sprint.

If you take other job's PoV, what are these players showing them? Exactly, they would feels healer is so OP.

I am perfectly aware of what I am saying. Thank you. Yet, did you even try other job on FL yet to find out their PoV because you questioning my knowledge about Frontline PvP?

[Gor]

Turn on your cleric stance and we get? A fully self functional DPS with high CC ability, medium DPS output ability, and high healing ability.

over-stretching. turn on cleric and you'll get a dps that hits for 100 with Ruin and about 300-400 with Energy Drain with a 60 second cd if not all 6 stacks of Aetherflow are on cd. and no, it does not have high healing ability while in Cleric, you would only heal for about 50% less so your 500 heals now turn into 200 and 250 heals which isn't enough to keep anything up if hit hard and especially not enough if it is sustained damaged as the healer would be forced to go back out of Cleric to heal and run. and then only doing half the damage of their initial damage. so no, we are not a fully functional dps in cleric. our damage is gradual, slow, only hits for a limited time, and is only effective on a target that is not getting heals from something else because the damage is so gradual and low that our damage can't out-dps a target thats getting healed.

the only targets we can kill are the ones who try to 1v1/1v2 us, without a healer, which one should not be doing in the first place. if someone is trying to kill me 1v1, i have every right to be able to kill them back and i will.

[Divinemight]

over-stretching.

I am not over-stretching. You have more on your plate as a Scholar. Instead of using vit accessories, you could equip INT accessories and not using Cleric Stance. Most of you guys equip vit accessories is to put your HP treshold above lvl1 limit break. You have more freedom and variety of pattern to play as a Scholar. Scholar is just an improved version of FF11 RDM.

When you play Scholar as DPS, you do not need to worry about being interrupt because all you need to do is to play like a Bard. Keep your target at 20m and just bio and aero and rune 2. You are a good player, you know how to handle meele when they are close, i dont need to write it out for you. Meele hp is about 4k and it only probably take you about 20s to take him down. Reserve your aetheric burst for the limit break.

If you played a lot, you definitely encountered a lot of these players who play healers as dps role.

[Hailie]

Instead of using vit accessories, you could equip INT accessories and not using Cleric Stance. You have more freedom and variety of pattern to play as a Scholar.

When you play Scholar as DPS, you do not need to worry about being interrupt because all you need to do is to play like a Bard. Keep your target at 20m and just bio and aero and rune 2. You are a good player, you know how to handle meele when they are close, i dont need to write it out for you. Meele hp is about 4k and it only probably take you about 20s to take him down. Reserve your aetheric burst for the limit break.

OK! lol earlier post YOU SAID this was a problem!

the otherside is having issue with those players who turned healer role into a dps role by taking advantage of healer's mechanics.

The issue is with those players who use healers (Scholar or White Mage) as DPS role.

OK! lol earlier post YOU SAID this was a problem!

Either you have a problem with healers being able to CLERIC -> DPS or you don't... ? you have contradicted yourself my friend from what you reply to Gor up top

[Divinemight]

Either you have a problem with healers being able to CLERIC -> DPS or you don't... ? you have contradicted yourself my friend from what you reply to Gor up top

Read my reply to Gor. You have variety of play patterns. Vit accessores or INT accessories and switch between clearic stance is depend on individual player's skill. Players with Bard background can keep you check at bay with Clearic stance. Players can also doing INT accessories without clearic stance. If you think you are super good can outplay your opponent, you can go INT with Clearic Stance on.

You have that freedom Hailie, you just need to get out of your tunnel vision world

[Hailie]

The issue is with those players who use healers (Scholar or White Mage) as DPS role.

I think you have Clearly missed 1 of the points Bob is making.. If you leave a Healer unchecked and they have nothing to heal they will possible pop on cleric and start to DPs to help their team, its exactly what I would do.
Thats no ones fault but you are who ever you play FL with. again I said this before.. people want Healers to be defenseless and helpless and just rely on their team mates to survive.

I don't think anyone is misunderstanding what your saying. It seems like you dislike to be challenged when you make a post in a thread, you want others to see your side of the story but you refuse to see anyone else side because you believe only what you say .. It's almost like arguing with a Stop sign.

Shake also said the same thing

1) I agree that a healer should not be able to compete with any damage that a melee or DD caster should do in theory. But the thing is that if a healer is able to put out any damage at all, it's because no one is pressuring them. That's a team problem, not a balance problem. If a Scholar is DoT'ing people up or a White Mage is spamming Holy it's because they have no one to heal and they're given free reign to deal damage. A healer simply should not be given this option because they should be pressured the moment they appear on the battlefield. If they choose to deal damage in lieu of healing in the hopes that they can wipe out your party before needing to heal, then they're taking a tactical risk that may or may not pay off.

[Divinemight]

I think you have Clearly missed 1 of the points Bob is making..

By all mean, Hailie, I am not sure if we are playing the same game. The job you are playing right now, the WHM, has more potential than just a healer. I really dont get where you are getting this notion where WHM cant survive without teammate. If you are playing WHM as a DPS and on puposely challenge a full party, that is beyond me.

Did I ask for nerf on your survivil ability? Go ahead and browse my previous posts, I am strongly disagree that your survial ability (healing) should be touch. It is the offensive ability need to be adress.

I mean, go ahead, browse my posts. I hold different ground, I do not agree about nerf healer's heaing and crowd controlling. Dont hold personal grudge because I made a statement relate to healer, you are just making yourself sound like White Knight.

I was planning to do BLM next, but fine, I will focus on WHM next and try to provide you a video to backup my argument.