A fundamental flaw with FL (and PvP in general)

[Hailie]

To be honest, a premade is a premade. They destroy any pug party either way. This is not really an argument. If a healer doesn't die from a coordinate attack from a premade party, then we got a serious issue.

Both healers have really strong tools for PvP survival. While it is ok for healer to have survival ability against 2 to 3 players in Wolf Den, but that level of survival ability has become an issue in the environment of Frontline.

If they dont die from a coordinate attack from a premade party, it might be that their team could possibly be a premade too helping them stay alive.. If you have some REALLY good Vet pvp healers on your team its gonna be just as hard to bring them down.

You nerf healers you will be also nerfing the healers that heal you too

[Shake0615]

There are currently too many ways for a healer to survive and too few ways to actually kill them.

I agree with you that healers should not be able to dish out much damage (perhaps disable Cleric Stance in FL?) but this statement is pretty much nonsense. There are more than enough ways to lock down a good healer with a coordinated attack and take out a bad one with a pug. Here's a quick list of a WHM's main defensive skills and their counters (and this just what I have off the top of my head).

1) Fluid Aura -> Fetter ward, Esuna (from your healer), Purify, Bind ward potions
2) Repose -> Fetter ward, Sleep ward potions, Purify, an inattentive DD who will break it anyway
3) Equanimity/Surecast -> Steel Peak, Brutal Swing, Shield Bash, Repose, Sleep, Fluid Aura, Blunt Arrow, Leg Sweep, Blast Shot, Mythril Tempest, (One-Ilm Punch and Glory Slash could conceivably remove Surecast though that would be difficult to time)
4) Stoneskin -> One-Ilm Punch, Glory Slash, enough damage
5) Attunement -> Ignore them and burn their teammates until effect fades.
6) Sprint -> Tri-disaster, Weapon Throw, Blizzard II, Sleep, Repose, and any other stun/bind that you please.

It really is easy to take down a healer if your team is using their stuns/silences appropriately and not working them into their regular rotation like in PvE (if you save them for Equanimity then the skill becomes useless anyway). As for Covering and Tetsudo, that requires teamwork that - let's face it - rarely exists in a Frontline pug. The average Paladin just doesn't do their job properly on a consistent basis. I can count on one hand the number of times I've been Covered in the last 50 matches and I routinely wind up in groups with 2+ Paladins. I also rarely deal with a Monk who knows how to Perfect Balance + One-Ilm Punch spam me while I'm being focused. That could potentially remove Stoneskin, Surecast, Galvanize, Regen, Medica II, Protect, and even Swiftcast if they caught me during the 1 sec hidden CD.

On this point, I completely agree with everyone else that your team is more than likely the issue. That's not an ad hominem attack because you may be doing your job properly but if your team is not then it will be tough to kill the enemy healer. It's not because healers are overpowered - it's because some people just don't understand the dynamic of PvP in this game.

[NorthernLadMSP]

I'm sorry, if you're group of 5-8 people can't take down a healer, you're doing something very wrong. It's as simple as that. Like many others have stated already, there are PLENTY of methods to knock healers out.

[Gor]

What makes healers so deserving of being the ultimate gods in PvP that can tank, heal, deal damage, and support? Why do they get more PvP skills than any other role on top of their already overpowered arsenal?

these questions have already been addressed in previous pages. try reading them for a change. you're beating a dead horse.

my short answer tho ... because SE felt like it

[Gor]

They are though and I keep providing evidence that supports my claim while you sidestep and backpedal at every opportunity.

no. you just keep ignoring what has been told to you that this discussion has been made time and time again for months and people are tired of repeating themselves just for the sake of some joe who wants to feel special and bring it up again to state their argument that also has been made time and time again, month after month. it gets to be a neverending circle of discussion of which SE has nerfed healers quite a few times as a result of it, yet people still come in here biching and moaning and crying tears of woe that they still can't kill a healer. SE made MNKs and PLDs able to remove Aetherflow stacks so SCHs can't Lustrate (instant heal), MNKs more than PLDs really, and do you know how many times i have had a MNK or PLD use their Glory Slash or PB+ILM Punch on me in FL? ONCE! and the MNK that did it was someone I knew, a veteran PVP player, so it's not my fault if MNKs don't use the abilities that SE gave them to kill a healer easier. that's why I keep saying, it doesn't matter how much nerfage of buffage is done to healers and everyone else, healers will still stay alive because the problem is the enemy team, not the healing classes. to be perfectly honest, i stay alive most of the time because of kiting and los'ing behind walls at bases and i run around with 3 stacks of Aetherflow up with 2 MNKs on me ... but do they punch them off? no. they rather Shoulder Tackle me until i'm stun immune and all other random stuff that I just laugh at.

i don't even have to use my PVP skills unless the shit hits the fan. and i'm able to keep my other healer up not because of some god mode, but because i look at what classes are on them, i predict what the enemy team is probably about to do and i keep my counter-attacks ready as well as my PLD friend i always run with or tell whatever PLD on my team to help someone. if our other healer has phantom dart on them, i use focalization. if our other healer has full swing up on them, i use eye for an eye and so on and if i run out of stuff, i tell my PLD friend or whatever PLD on my team i run with to Cover or Testudo me or the other healer as needed. if all my cds and my PLDs cds are down and i'm taking damage, i stand away from my group and so i can see when i am about to get surged and i kite. by then, everything on the enemy team should be dead. what is so god mode about that? nothing. do i die? of course i do sometimes, but my objective is not to die thus i'm not going to just bend over to make butthurt people happy. if i get overwhelmed, i'll even flee and come back if i have to.

there is no amount of nerfing or buffing in the world that SE can do to force bad players to be good and look at a healer's buffs so they know what to punch off because they all want to do is dps and not think or play strategically. they think they can just dps down the world. this is the breed of player SE has fostered since making alot of the PVE content easy mode by ignoring mechanics and still killing the bosses, so thus these are the kind of bad players we all have to deal with in PVP as well.

or do you really think you're the first and only one who has whined about this? there are countless threads about this, like someone said earlier, SE has addressed it, tapped it and its time to move on.

[Gor]

No class should be able to perform every role well in PvP. Healers can do that and then some, depending on whether it's a White Mage or Scholar. It's as simple as that and isn't even debatable. Name one class that is even close to being as versatile and powerful as healers are in PvP.

Well sweetie, it's like that in every mmo i've played. Try playing a healer in WoW and you will see the same thing only 10 times worse. Two healers in one area IS god mode in WoW unless you bring your entire squad and even that is iffy. FFXIV is no different than any other mmo pvp because the healer is primary target thus takes more damage than any other class in the game so they have to be able to heal themselves and others or there would be no game. We are not tanks. Unlike a tank we die in 1 second flat when focused. And we are not a dps, yes we can 1v1 and maybe 1v2 against weak players that are not another SCH or WHM, provided there are not any other players around, but that damage output is weak and is only as good as Aetherflow being up or we risk getting crushed in the process. Against a strong pvp player though, we won't be able to dps and will spend a big chunk of that fight trying to stay alive and get back to our team rather than dpsing while a straight dps class would be able to kill the target asap. So no, we cannot fulfill all roles to their max potential and when under pressure we can't do any of it.

[tehomegaking]

Suck at killing healers? Go learn how to play in WD. Simple as that.

[Divinemight]

If they dont die from a coordinate attack from a premade party, it might be that their team could possibly be a premade too helping them stay alive.. If you have some REALLY good Vet pvp healers on your team its gonna be just as hard to bring them down.

You nerf healers you will be also nerfing the healers that heal you too

Your first argument is a two edges blade because it can go either way. If you are having issue to survive as a healer, you can also blame on your teammates not providing assistance to you when they are suppose to.

Your second argument also not solid because that would apply to both sides, it is going to even out. The only change is that your Paladin will have to do their job better and all Marauders have to go back to Warriors.

Please do understand. I am not bashing on the healers but trying to point out the obvious fact. I am not expecting a nerf on healing ability but they do need to take away your offense abilities so healer dont feel that super powerful at all aspects. A lot of Frontline players felt healers are too strong simply because healers have all the tools for offense, crowd control, and healing ability. It is too good to be true for a job to be good in all aspects, you have to give up something for game balance.

Also, the survival ability you need in Wolf Den is just too much for the environment of the Frontline in which right now is the main stream PvP in this game. You are not going to be able to increase the PvP population size if you let a job to stay at current OP status. Most of us have WoW PvP background and we all aware of that 30% healing debuff mechanic from WoW PvP. Why is it there? It is simple. The healing ability provide to your for PvE is too strong for PvP because player character will never be able to output same amount of damage as scripted AI boss. If you are unable to see why your healing potency is stronger than dps potency in ilvl80 PvP, you are really just trying to defend your own job instead of being a true PvPer.

I personally do not want to see Sqaure/Enix use same approach as Blizzard's 30% healing debuff and it probably wont need to because there is no morale and Frontline is capped at ilvl 80. I am strongly suggest you try to play other job on the Fronline and seeing other job's PoV instead of being trapped in one job's tunnel visioned world.

[Gor]

and if you're going into FL or WD as a PLD and you're geared with vit, don't expect to be able to kill a healer ... or anything else with that because that would be 80% of your problem.

[Divinemight]

Suck at killing healers? Go learn how to play in WD. Simple as that.

I dont think both sdies are on the same page. The real issue with healers are from having too much tools for offensive, crowd controlling, and healing ability that signficantly decreased DPS's output time on the healer. During 8 v 8 combat over the node, this uptime is futher reduced by healer's teammates. I personally dont think WD experience would help anyone here. Unless you are running with a 3 man premade yourself, most of pug healer will just die pretty fast by opposite's 3 man premade team. DPS players wont get improve by playing WD.