Can we just have the Wrath of the Lich King Raiding Scheme?

[Zumi]

They already have the normal/heroic system of raids with the Normal coil and Savage coil. It is just that since the idea for making savage coil came up mid patch they didn't have better drops. Yoshi P already said if the format is popular they will in the future have specific savage mode items that drop. I am guessing in 2.4 there will be a normal coil and a savage mode right at the start with savage having slightly higher item levels then normal coil but being way harder, with possible recolor or the ability to dye the gear for savage drops.

Games like wow were made vastly easier by having user created addons like boss mods that make stuff louder and alert you to most every mechanic of and had timers for all boss abilities and when they will go off on fights since wow is very scripted much like arr. Tell you when an attack is coming out, warns you about having to move, dispel a debuff. For example if SE actually got around to releasing their addon API I am sure someone would make a similar boss mod. Your average player who isn't skilled enough to watch Twinitania's cast bar for Twister and also have her focus targeted when killing dread knights and always dies to Twister would do much better if there was so boss mod addon was making some obnoxious loud noise and yelling at you to RUN AWAY FROM TWISTER in huge letters they would be able to do that part.

I also remember when Blizzard invited the 2 best guilids to race eachother at blizzcon in a raid with no addons and they couldn't beat the last boss because they were so use to having to rely on addons to tell them about incoming attacks.

[Duelle]

The reason WotLK's model worked was mostly due to how people were introduced to raiding. I mean, if you look at the entry level content (Naxx10/25, Sartharion, Archavon), most of the bosses were pretty straightforward while others did require a gameplan in order to clear. You could "faceroll" Patchwerk so long as you knew who your Hateful Strike tank was, whereas you needed a kill order for Grand Widow Faerlina, needed to know how to safely kite Anub'rekhan and Grobbulus, not to mention coordinate mind controls for Instructor Razuvious. I'll admit mods made this content "easier" than the devs probably intended, but DBM/bigwigs had nothing on raid coordinations as well as players knowing what to do to get the kill.

[Krr]

I recently did t5 in a learning group with i90+i100 gear. We didn't clear it. I was nervous as hell before going through it mind you, but when I did I actually laughed. Oh god, the whole thing was so laughably easy. Sure, we wiped at Snakes, but people blew snakes up early and I didn't have enough heals thrown on me to survive four snakes. That and DPS were getting tired at that point I believe. Also, some silly mistakes from puggers, but it was otherwise all around... easy. Have I gone to t6? Nope. Do I think it will also be as laughably easy once I figure the whole thing out? Yes.

Come back to in two months when you're still watching puggers wipe to snakes and you're wondering if 1 million gil is worth it.

It doesn't matter what you or I as MMO Veterans or as people who've raided in the past feel. Many pugs in FFXIV are new to the art, and very rarely if ever clear this content for a number of reasons intrinsic to the game's design, and no other alternatives (that aren't cleared in less than a day and really just exist to 'gear you up' for these encounters) exist. These days, you pretty much need a static, some friends who've already done it to rub up on, or a seller to progress past these 'content walls'. Some of which are, honestly, actually harder than what lies beyond them mechanically, though they might require you to know your rotation a little better. And that content is considered outdated and irrelevant gear-wise. Is that good for long-term game life?

[Noel_Clover]

I'm a little confused on your view right there Krr. From the first part of your post I see that you're pointing out that it's a player-skill matter, right before you immediately turn it on the game. I do hope that you'll tell me why you think that it's a problem with the game.

NOTE: This is totally an opinion and is not meant to be read in any way hostile.

I really, strongly hold that it's a player-skill problem. Saying that pugs are new to the art of gaming ((which may be true and is completely fine. I like helping newbies up the ladder.)) and so under-perform isn't exactly acceptable. I point this out because this game holds a really nice number of dungeons which gradually teach players to settle into clearing dungeons and the like. You learn to deal with positions, AoE, look out for stuff in the dungeon, manage resources and watch out for cues. These lessons are taught over and over and over again to the player. Heck, they teach it to the player so many times it's like playing the starting stage of Megaman over and over and over again. I'll say it again: Nothing in t5 is hard ((unless latency laughs in your face like the die gods as you roll a 1 in DnD)). The wall is something easily scaled if players simply knew their classes and how to do the fight, something completely related to skill and knowledge. Heck, I'd happily say that the wall isn't even really there anymore with people over gearing and having the Echo buff around since the only actual problem was gear.

If people are paying mercenaries ((I have no problem with this at all, selling a service is nothing more than business.)) to clear content, it's their choice. Admitting that one lacks ability in certain areas and compensating it through the use of money is absolutely nothing new ((I don't farm and instead buy my food for example)) in real life and in game.

Even if I do meet terrible players ((And I've seen so many it's really, really horrific)) who are unable to do t5 I still won't pay for a win or ask for the bar to be lowered. I'd tell everyone to start bucking up.

You don't ask a challenge to lower itself. You rise to the occasion. That's how you get better. Coddling players who are bad, lowering the challenge just for them is nothing more than telling them that it's okay to be bad and to stay bad. Giving them access to harsher content will not motivate them to get better.

While I would gladly promote the longevity of the game I would rather have bad players do different content as opposed to doing hard content they can't do simply because they won't get good.

[Dwill]

Come back to in two months when you're still watching puggers wipe to snakes and you're wondering if 1 million gil is worth it.

It doesn't matter what you or I as MMO Veterans or as people who've raided in the past feel. Many pugs in FFXIV are new to the art, and very rarely if ever clear this content for a number of reasons intrinsic to the game's design, and no other alternatives (that aren't cleared in less than a day and really just exist to 'gear you up' for these encounters) exist. These days, you pretty much need a static, some friends who've already done it to rub up on, or a seller to progress past these 'content walls'. Some of which are, honestly, actually harder than what lies beyond them mechanically, though they might require you to know your rotation a little better. And that content is considered outdated and irrelevant gear-wise. Is that good for long-term game life?

While I agree that plenty of people playing this game are new to raiding, it doesn't justify making this game mind numbingly boring and not remotely challenging that even my cat could complete it by sleeping on my keyboard. Some form of challenge as to exist in a game, something that people can strive to overcome.

The whole thing here is a matter of lack of skills. During your whole leveling process, the game teaches you how to avoid AoE, how to position yourself, how to deal with adds and pretty much everything you will find in a group/raid environment setting. Now people just to take this set of skills they acquire and use it in said environment and they will be able to raid and do endgame content just fine. The whole difference between a terrible play and an exceptional player is their ability to do perform at their jobs optimally while dealing with mechanics. If people can't do it, then they just have to get better at it until they can. Dumbing down content so that everybody can do it not matter how good they are is not healthy for the game in long-term run. Yes there are some content that is worse than other in this game but there is nothing that's hard enough to justify nerfing it (Savage Coil excluded, not saying it needs a nerf), especially considering the amount of people who already cleared it at the same iLvL and often even lower.

[Fendred]

While I agree that plenty of people playing this game are new to raiding, it doesn't justify making this game mind numbingly boring and not remotely challenging that even my cat could complete it by sleeping on my keyboard.

Then you have nothing to worry about because the suggestion I made wouldn't do that.

Also, the fact that WoW blew every other MMORPG out of the water in subscriptions shows that addons did not ruin the game during Wrath of the Lich King. If anything, it suggests that the use of addons made the game more enjoyable for a greater number of people. Also, some of those indicators were pretty awesome to look at, and it freed up people to look at all the other cool things around them. Being forced to stare at a health bar for the majority of the time you are doing a fight never has been, and never will be, a fun thing.

Plus, I think Yoshida is treating the accomplishments of the modding community like they haven't played an integral role in the evolution of MMORPG game play when they were just as instrumental in tuning the balance of the game as anything the developers did. Someone above gave an example where all the players in a contest couldn't defeat a boss because they were used to playing with addons. The aforementioned poster is looking at this in the wrong way though: The fact is that the benefits of addons to improving the game play experience were so prevalent that everyone, even the best players, had to have them.

Btw, WoW was still gaining and maintaining subs during Wrath of the Lich King, so I think I can be fairly confident in saying they found the golden middle with raiding difficulty. Looking at how they balanced the encounters without looking at how the addons also helped tune those fights would only be getting it half right.

[abzoluut]

Yes please! http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...18#post2351718

For those who use savage coil as their argument: while it is nice to have yet another difficulty, "normal" Coil still remains too hard for the average Joe. Not to mention that right now it's just in there as a Beta so the devs can make the right call with this kind of content, hence no rewards.

Right now it feels like Yoshi wants to cater to the new people he so often mentions. So the difficulty is somewhere in between. Another fact is people having problems creating/managing a group they can clear stuff with apart from being on at the same time. So yes, give a "Raid Finder" option so pugs can clear Coil and for us, people who are motivated to put effort in a static, have more of a challenge.

[Fendred]

So what's wrong? Is the bar elevated too high for people to actually challenge?

Pfft. Hardly. I would say that the gaming level of the community is terribly low...

so your point is that...

A) We're playing an entry level MMORPG designed for mass appeal...
B) Puts all of those different player demographics it is appealing to in the same room and...
C) ... lots of people get stuck on raid content regardless of individual skill because others on their team are far less skilled then they are...

I'm failing to see how you are disagreeing with me in the slightest. My suggestion wouldn't even effect high end static groups. It just opens a middle ground for mixed teams.

I'm starting to think these forums have a negative effect the reading comprehension of people who come here. We all need to get away from this place before it destroys our minds and turns us into zombies.

ZOMBIES!

I don't have a zombie picture to accompany this. Someone help me!

[Noel_Clover]

Actually they lost 800,000 subs. ((SOURCE)) : http://www.gamespot.com/articles/wor.../1100-6421529/ . But then again they lose and gain every now and then.

I would like to point out that add-ons made things easier, and so players were unable to work with a more manual system. I think I'm the one you're quoting on add-ons by the way, I could be wrong and presumptuous. Hope I'm not. It would be terribly embarrassing.

I would also say that your view of the add-on usage is also a wrong view then, because people were really coddled by the use of add-ons and really can't do raids and stuff without them. And I'm being perfectly serious here. I'm looking at it in a very broad, general view with the idea of players actually getting better in mind. I'm not dismissing that add-ons do help ((I used add-ons to modify text and location of words, but never, ever used anything to tell me to start running and stuff)) a gamer, but it's most certainly a crutch for players who do use it. Remove this crutch and you get what we have now in FFXIV: Players being unable to complete simple objectives, like going to a dedicated damage sponge team or not get under Twintania for conflag because they're used to giant text popping up in their faces with wonderful alerting sounds blaring up their ears.

It's like driving stick after driving a wonderful, convenient auto for a long, long while. You'll probably suck at it.

The "best players" ((Term used loosely mind you)) had to use mods because at that point everyone was using and applying the rule of "Use it or beat it" ((seriously)) , and I remember something about Blizzard starting to tune stuff to the use of add-ons. I might be wrong on the latter mind you, but the former was the case with some of the people I talked to. Not that it's everyone since I don't talk to a few million people, but it still gave an image.

[Dwill]

Yes please!http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...18#post2351718


For those who use savage coil as their argument: while it is nice to have yet another difficulty, "normal" Coil still remains too hard for the average Joe. Not to mention that right now it's just in there as a Beta so the devs can make the right call with this kind of content, hence no rewards.

Right now it feels like Yoshi wants to cater to the new people he so often mentions. So the difficulty is somewhere in between. Another fact is people having problems creating/managing a group they can clear stuff with apart from being on at the same time. So yes, give a "Raid Finder" option so pugs can clear Coil and for us, people who are motivated to put effort in a static, have more of a challenge.

We don't need more reasons justify people being bad and waste developer times because they can't clear something that's been cleared by thousands of people already. Echo is there a to help people. If you can't kill it with Echo, you seriously need to just get better.