[Pole] Do you want to see the summoner class reworked?

[Dwill]

Yes, amongst other things. This is a too much of a generic MMO without enough of what made Final Fantasy stand out in it. All the biggest summons and best spells are possessed by NPC's, and the PC's all can't wield that kind of power. We are allowed to play the B-string instead of the A list, left riding the pine with generic ideas from WoW. I only began playing about 6 days ago and so far, I am underwhelmed. The whole game needs another overhaul. Come back when Black mages can cast Ultima, Meteor, and Xzone, and when summoners can summon as well if not better than Yuna from FFX. Also when you can come up with quests that are more interesting than having my adventurer deliver pie, pickup dry cleaning, etc. FFS. I feel like SE is way outta touch with Final Fantasy anymore, for more proof look at FFXV aka SE's take on Shadow of the Collossus meets Assassin's Creed meets Metal Gear. *SMH*

Because that kind of thing would be totally balanced without any problems whatsoever.

Come back when you'll have noticed the difference between a single player game and a MMO.

[Verityrant]

I wish developers would notice that there is a difference between designing a MMO and copying WoW. Way to break the mold and strike out, use your good ideas from Final Fantasy that made that series good back in the day...not! I will come back when there is something other than tired design and white knights here.

[Seaku]

I wish developers would notice that there is a difference between designing a MMO and copying WoW. Way to break the mold and strike out, use your good ideas from Final Fantasy that made that series good back in the day...not! I will come back when there is something other than tired design and white knights here.

So, someone who likes the current design is a White Knight just because it doesn't adhere to what you think it should be?

Also I have to really wonder here with all the 'copy WoW' people out there, have you played WoW? Do you know what warlocks play like? Since honestly the only similarity is they have DoTs and Pets. Warlocks like all classes in WoW are 3 classes in one. That isn't to say they all play differently, rogues for quite some time regardless of spec played very similar, though for warlock they were quite different in playstyle. Not to mention none of them played like the FFXIV smn, except for the fact that they have dots.

Let's take affliction warlocks as they are the most 'similar', it is about balancing your regenerating soul shards and you do that by channeling (continuous cast at the target) or regenerating them off procs from dots. So you can regenerate them on demand and it's about buffing spells you already have. Smn 'equivalent' mechanic is Aetherflow stacks which is about managing powerful abilities over a 1min period that can only be used with said stacks, as opposed to buffing a spell. Aff Warlock pets are even more fire and forget then Garuda, as Garuda has the ability to extend dots so you have to pay attention to that at least (or use AOE but that doesn't require too much thought). Not to mention you actually have more buffs for your pet then a warlock does in WoW, I don't think warlocks have any other than summoning another pet for a limited time. There's also whole builds that eschew the pet completely. So really the similarities between the two things are the fact they have dots, and sometimes pets. Great!

Also I wouldn't be surprised if the 'summon big eidolon thing' for a limited time is going to be the reskinned limit break for Smn coming out at some point. The Smn could do with more summons but we know we're getting that with the expac.

[Dwill]

I wish developers would notice that there is a difference between designing a MMO and copying WoW. Way to break the mold and strike out, use your good ideas from Final Fantasy that made that series good back in the day...not! I will come back when there is something other than tired design and white knights here.

Someone disagreeing with your overly exaggerated ideas of balance and your incapacity to distinguish between a single player RPG and a MMO doesn't make them white knights, it means that have an actual grasp of how a MMO actually works.

Playing 6 days of this game and having your Summoner at 30 and Black Mage at 32 gives you nearly zero insight on how the game plays as a whole. Pet classes with DoTs have existed before WoW and will continue to exist after the game dies so I highly suggest you get over it because it ain't changing anytime soon.

[Mjytresz]

So, someone who likes the current design is a White Knight just because it doesn't adhere to what you think it should be?

As opposed to what you think it should be?

Also I have to really wonder here with all the 'copy WoW' people out there, have you played WoW? Do you know what warlocks play like? Since honestly the only similarity is they have DoTs and Pets. Warlocks like all classes in WoW are 3 classes in one. That isn't to say they all play differently, rogues for quite some time regardless of spec played very similar, though for warlock they were quite different in playstyle. Not to mention none of them played like the FFXIV smn, except for the fact that they have dots.

Yes, actually. Warlock is 3 different specs rolled into one. This is why when we reference warlock, we reference the spec. Affliction Warlock is, what, exactly? A DoT based character with a pet and built-in sustain and debuffs? Kinda like SMN is a DoT based class with a pet and built-in sustain and debuffs? Same general archetype?
Oh wait, nevermind.

Sad fact is Warlock could actually attempt to pull off a pet-based spec. SMN doesn't even get the option.

Let's take affliction warlocks as they are the most 'similar', it is about balancing your regenerating soul shards and you do that by channeling (continuous cast at the target) or regenerating them off procs from dots. So you can regenerate them on demand and it's about buffing spells you already have. Smn 'equivalent' mechanic is Aetherflow stacks which is about managing powerful abilities over a 1min period that can only be used with said stacks, as opposed to buffing a spell. Aff Warlock pets are even more fire and forget then Garuda, as Garuda has the ability to extend dots so you have to pay attention to that at least (or use AOE but that doesn't require too much thought). Not to mention you actually have more buffs for your pet then a warlock does in WoW, I don't think warlocks have any other than summoning another pet for a limited time. There's also whole builds that eschew the pet completely. So really the similarities between the two things are the fact they have dots, and sometimes pets. Great!

Yea, except Afflock and SMN both feature everything I typed above and more. Might as well say they're nothing alike because the names are different. That's about as credible as your argument gets.
Anyone who successfully played Afflock in PvP and SMN in FF14 can feel the difference. It's nearly tangible.

Also, let's just pretend like Warlocks can't pull off a pet-oriented spec, which is actually pretty useful in PvE, whereas SMN is pigeonholed into the same spec regardless. Nothing screams "options" like the lack of options.


[QUOTE=Seaku;2366155]

Also I wouldn't be surprised if the 'summon big eidolon thing' for a limited time is going to be the reskinned limit break for Smn coming out at some point. The Smn could do with more summons but we know we're getting that with the expac.

Actually, I'd prefer a general rebranding of the class or an option for how the class is played.
Just going off of your post, what's the point of SMN when the only useful skill is Contagion? Like I said, that's 1/12. Even fucking Scholars have more useful pet skills than that. And that's pretty pathetic.

tl;dr rename SMN to WL and create an actual pet-based class.

Someone disagreeing with your overly exaggerated ideas of balance and your incapacity to distinguish between a single player RPG and a MMO doesn't make them white knights, it means that have an actual grasp of how a MMO actually works.

Playing 6 days of this game and having your Summoner at 30 and Black Mage at 32 gives you nearly zero insight on how the game plays as a whole. Pet classes with DoTs have existed before WoW and will continue to exist after the game dies so I highly suggest you get over it because it ain't changing anytime soon.

Regardless of whether WoW was not only the most successful MMO to date or whether it set the standard back in the day and even today.
Good point.

PS - What's the difference between a 30 SMN and a 50 SMN? Awareness of what the class lacks in design and playstyle.
How many builds is a single Warlock capable of?
And how many builds for SMN?

[Mister-Wonderful]

Distracted by the pole, can't vote in poll.

[Dwill]

Regardless of whether WoW was not only the most successful MMO to date or whether it set the standard back in the day and even today.
Good point.

PS - What's the difference between a 30 SMN and a 50 SMN? Awareness of what the class lacks in design and playstyle.
How many builds is a single Warlock capable of?
And how many builds for SMN?

Can you actually start making sense at one point and stop the ridiculous comparison of Affliction Warlock vs Summoner ?

[Seaku]

As opposed to what you think it should be?

Okay, tell me, the people arguing that the Summoner is fine and enjoy playing the summoner as it is now are somehow white knights? Is that what you're saying? Or it could be that the people arguing against it just don't agree with you?

Yes, actually. Warlock is 3 different specs rolled into one. This is why when we reference warlock, we reference the spec. Affliction Warlock is, what, exactly? A DoT based character with a pet and built-in sustain and debuffs? Kinda like SMN is a DoT based class with a pet and built-in sustain and debuffs? Same general archetype?
Oh wait, nevermind.

Sad fact is Warlock could actually attempt to pull off a pet-based spec. SMN doesn't even get the option.

You do realize a Warlock has LESS capabilities with a pet than a summoner does right? They have 1 ability (Command Demon) for it other than summoning one and pressing attack whereas the very least summoners have CDs for their pets and interact with them more. Also the proportion of the Warlock's damage that is the pets' is less than that of a Summoner. So I thoroughly disagree with your statement of that somehow Summoners can't play a pet based spec.

Though again, let's compare the Summoner to a Survival hunter than shall we? That's a dot based class with pets. How bout the necromancer from GW1? Necromancer from EQ and UO (both of which predate the warlock I might add)? Loremaster from LoTRO? Druid (cleric) soul from Rift? Could it be that this pet + DOT paradigm is just an archetype across multiple MMOs and did NOT start with WoW?

Also to note, the Warrior in this game builds wrath in a similar way to how a Protection Paladin from WoW builds holy power, I don't see any comparisons that they're the same. I just don't get why people get hung up on this Archetype and somehow say it's from WoW. It ain't, never has been.

(Honestly now thinking about it I think the FFXIV summoner is closest to BM Hunter but w/e)

Yea, except Afflock and SMN both feature everything I typed above and more. Might as well say they're nothing alike because the names are different. That's about as credible as your argument gets.
Anyone who successfully played Afflock in PvP and SMN in FF14 can feel the difference. It's nearly tangible.

All you typed above is that they have dots and a pet. I already said that is where the similarities begin and end. Aff locks play quite different to a summoner in PvE. By pure mechanics one is about balancing a back and forth resource, burning them on a big buff spell and one is about planning ahead to use a limited resource. I'm sure just from that you can tell the difference. I'm not going to speak for PvP since I don't play PvP in either game.

Also, let's just pretend like Warlocks can't pull off a pet-oriented spec, which is actually pretty useful in PvE, whereas SMN is pigeonholed into the same spec regardless. Nothing screams "options" like the lack of options.

I ain't disputing the lack of options, I agree with you for this one. All classes lack options since there is no such thing as specs in this game. That is a problem for every class and not just the summoner, which I do hope they fix.

Actually, I'd prefer a general rebranding of the class or an option for how the class is played.
Just going off of your post, what's the point of SMN when the only useful skill is Contagion? Like I said, that's 1/12. Even fucking Scholars have more useful pet skills than that. And that's pretty pathetic.

tl;dr rename SMN to WL and create an actual pet-based class.

Hmm, okay, all of Titan's abilities are useful for what he does, namely tanking. You don't use that in raid scenario however. So that's 4/12 useful skills already. Garuda's Aerial slash is far from useless since its our only instant cast burst AOE skill though I wish that was on a 10 second timer instead of 30. 5/12. Contagion you've brought up. 6/12. For ifirt, Burning strike and Flaming crush are integral to his damage. 8/12.

Considering you are saying out of 12 skills you said only 1 is useful so I'm guessing you think Wind blade is useless too? 9/12.

So the pointless skills are shockwave (this just needs to go), Radiant shield (at least let us cast it on the tanks), Crimson Cyclone (remove the damn stun!).

They just need to redo some of the skills to make them more viable. There doesn't need a complete rework or rebranding to do it. Just make the skills more useful and done. No need for any sort of overhaul.

How many builds is a single Warlock capable of?
And how many builds for SMN?

I just want to bring this one up as the design of WoW is that all the classes are 3 classes in one. (4 for the Druid). Similar to rift in that regard (8 soul tress pick 3), the specs don't really play like one another with some exceptions (rogues namely). That is a different design paradigm to what FFXIV does. One of which I will agree needs to change, I'd like some customization, heck I'm sure everyone does. Though again, this is nothing to do with the Summoner and is just jobs in general. For that I'll just wait to see what 3.0 brings.

[Exstal]

Summoners who don't use Ifrit on Turn 3 don't know what they are doing.

Titan is pretty awful though.

Also isn't Death Knight and Warrior the same thing? You can probably draw parallels to all WoW classes from Final Fantasy classes. I'm sure someone, somewhere, has already done it. People only cry waterfalls about Summoner because...Summoner?

[Akiza]

To re balance Summoner they should swap the damage dealt by the master and pet and have the Summoner do 33% the damage of the Pet.

Make the Pets Hyur size Primals.

Make the Summoner summon management keeping the dots and adding Hard Mode Primal move sets to the summons, Summon skills, Pet Buffs and Pet Enhancement Traits.

Change the current Summoner to a Red Mage, add en spells and remove pets.