Dear SE, Yoshi, etc, remove Coil lock outs. Right now.

[blowfin]

So how do you propose we stop people who clearly aren't able to clear the content themselves from obtaining gears that they don't deserve?

Well, people will be selling these runs soon enough anyway, and I think some groups do already. It's a non-issue if the concern is being carried. Yoshi has tricked people into thinking that the lockout is for the players good, when in reality it's part of their business model.

I'd much rather be in an active FC/LS who takes time to run their members through the ropes of encounters than simply pay a group for the clear. "Carry" isn't a dirty word, much less so than "paid carry", and it's a very healthy thing for FC's and LS's to do if they want to retain members. As it stands at the moment, we don't have anything remotely resembling this for coil2, and it's lousy.

[Ryel]

So how do you propose we stop people who clearly aren't able to clear the content themselves from obtaining gears that they don't deserve?

Brutal Coil be the standard
Easy Coil be the lower version

Let's take Third Coil of Bahamuat; Brutal drops i135 gear and is tough, 100% guaranteed loot, weekly lockout. Normal version drops i120 gear, 20% chance to drop gear, easier and no lockout. Seems like a fair way to look at it.

I'm not sure where the concept of deserve comes from to be honest when talking about Coil gear.

I would understand if it prepped you for some higher tier raid content right off the bat that the gear was tuned for, but realistically you're ending up with i110 gear and an i115 weapon for 6 months of Brayflox farm and maybe a Halitali hard? Sure it makes current coil easier as you gear through but those turns are tuned to be cleared in the high i90-i100 range, which you'll soon be able to get without entering coil at all.

Don't take that statement as me condoning carries because i'm sure someone will read like 2/3rds of this post and immediately jump to that. It's just an observation really, considering that the next set of tomes gear that will come out with Third Coil of Bahamut will most likely obsolete it anyway (or come close) as such was the case with the previous coil.

While i wouldn't be opposed to two forms of coil one with no lockout and one with I'm not sure why it needs to be all that complicated to begin with, the bar for gating gear in any MMO should always be the difficulty of the content not the difficulty of allowing people to play said content, the idea that the hardest part of SCoB is making a static is ludicrous.

I personally felt that 1.23's Garuda loot system was probably the best implementation of a non-lockout, non-fury inducing RNG that the game has used so far. A mix of RNG for loot drop in the chest in addition to guaranteed tokens for each person to eventually buy the same rewards via NPC. This not only gave you the chance for instant gratification (RNG drop) but a reason to repeat the instance should you not see certain items EVER (See: Tanaka RNG) because you could eventually buy them given enough time / attempts.

Do the majority of posters who are so afraid of people being carried feel the battle team is so inept that they wouldn't be unable to create challenging content that would prevent such measures?

If so i would wager that's a much larger issue at hand for the longevity of this MMO.

[PrimeEvilPanda]

Well, people will be selling these runs soon enough anyway, and I think some groups do already

That is correct. Without jeopardizing my friendship with a mate of mine, I can confirm people are already selling SCoB runs and have seen in writing the Tells that they have bought a carry/run from some active FC's whose members are already geared enough/or have enough members to sell the carries.

In saying this, I'm originally from Aion, where'd you see shouts in LFG all the time from groups farming an instance, selling the loot from the Boss kills. It was like a service and how many active Legions made a living.

I'm just not sure, for FFXIV, if we should still be using the same argument about the dangers of unlocking Coil with the threat of sell carries becauseee...... it's. already. happening....

[blowfin]

That is correct. Without jeopardizing my friendship with a mate of mine, I can confirm people are already selling SCoB runs and have seen in writing the Tells that they have bought a carry/run from some active FC's whose members are already geared enough/or have enough members to sell the carries.

Yeah so this is already taking place, which of the two evils is lesser then?
- Paying for a carry from a group who doesn't care about you long term. You learn nothing from the fight.
- Working with FC/LS mates who are willing to teach the content and have shared long terms goals. Eventually you might even help people clear the content yourself!

It's such a no-brainer that it's ridiculous.

[Brainberry]

Its all cosmetic, the disparity in ilvl is whats eating at people.

Hopefully these new methods of obtaining sands/oil will help ease that pain because if it were truly were about doing the content itself you would try a little bit harder your own group and do it.

[PrimeEvilPanda]

-snip-

You're asking the wrong person, sorry. My mate and I don't advocate to pay for a carry because it's a waste of gil - the content will eventually become old and anyways, we're on a JP server. Our lag isn't as terrible as some people's so we don't have the same issues as the poor ones who can't clear some content.

What I am a bit confused is when people note that if you unlock SCoB it will open the floodgates to encourage sells ... when in fact it IS already happening. THAT was my whole point.

tl;dr - I need to take a course in putting my point across more clearly and there should be more substantial arguments other than "this will encourage sell carries" for not unlocking it

[blowfin]

You're asking the wrong person, sorry. My mate and I don't advocate to pay for a carry because it's a waste of gil - the content will eventually become old and anyways, we're on a JP server. Our lag isn't as terrible as some people's so we don't have the same issues as the poor ones who can't clear some content.

What I am a bit confused is when people note that if you unlock SCoB it will open the floodgates to encourage sells ... when in fact it IS already happening. THAT was my whole point.

No no, I was just asking a rhetorical question to the thread as a whole. Not implying anything at all, we're both in agreement that the "carry" argument is a pretty silly reason for not opening up coil more.

Mainly saying that given the option, the vast majority of players would rather work on this content with FC/LS members (sans lockout) rather than pay randoms to carry them.

[Archulak]

Yes sells are happening but at the rate of 1 sell per group per week. The flood gates opening would not be the ability to sell but the rate at which it would happen. All of SCoB takes about an hour to complete so in a week those same dedicated groups could go from 1 sell per week to 35, running 5 sells per day. I don't know about you but a 3500% increase in the amount of gear becoming available per week sounds like a pretty substantial increase.

[PrimeEvilPanda]

-snip-

Understood and my apologies! ><;

Yes please, I too would like to see more substantial reasons.

If even the reason of "the lock exists so as to prolong the content, else if it was available without a lock-out, people would burn through it" might be moot now as well....? Because apparently people are refusing to run Coil(?) due to the fact they can't access it/are having issues finding a steady group to clear it - and those said people see that this is the pattern for all future content so they un-sub - then where do we go from here?

On a side note, SE could just throw us more amazing horsey mounts as a distraction and we can forget allllll this deep Coil thinking /sarcasm

no seriously. I want a horsey mount

[blowfin]

Yes sells are happening but at the rate of 1 sell per group per week. The flood gates opening would not be the ability to sell but the rate at which it would happen. All of SCoB takes about an hour to complete so in a week those same dedicated groups could go from 1 sell per week to 35, running 5 sells per day. I don't know about you but a 3500% increase in the amount of gear becoming available per week sounds like a pretty substantial increase.

It's a catch 22. You open up the lockout and more people would be able to participate in coil through normal means, which would be a fantastic thing, but more people would undoubtedly sell carries. Again though, I'm not sure why this is detrimental apart from the fact that it screws with SE's planned gating and progression. It's better than losing players directly and indirectly because of the lockout, which has happened in spades. Regardless, mercing content has been a part of MMO's since day dot, it's common in this game too, and undoubtedly when the lockout gets removed from coil2 it will happen there too. Sure some chumps might get powerful gear they haven't truly "earnt" (that is debatable if they're able to pay for a carry), but they're only hurting themselves really by not using the content to develop their skills.

If even the reason of "the lock exists so as to prolong the content, else if it was available without a lock-out, people would burn through it" might be moot now as well....? Because apparently people are refusing to run Coil(?) due to the fact they can't access it/are having issues finding a steady group to clear it - and those said people see that this is the pattern for all future content so they un-sub - then where do we go from here?

Exactly my situation, after a few runs of T6, I've chosen to not touch Coil2 with a ten foot pole because of the trial of finding a decent, reliable static. Not worth it.