WAR MT + PLD OT vs. PLD MT + WAR OT in terms of DPS

[Fated]

I see this thrown around a lot and though the general consensus seems to favor PLD MT + WAR OT, I see a lot of comments in the other direction as well. Some of the arguments I generally read are flawed because they'll state things such as "WAR with STR accs beats PLD with tanking accs" and things of that nature.

Fight or Flight and Berserk are available regardless of which job is tanking, but the main differences lie in the following:

WAR MT loses 25% damage due to Defiance, but can use Unchained every 120 seconds to regain it for 20 seconds. WAR MTs also have varying extra critical %.

PLD MT loses 50 potency on auto attacks due to being in Shield Oath over Sword Oath.

I'd like to hear from stat junkies who crunch numbers (if there are any).

[Nabian]

I don't have the numbers...and from a offensive stand point I don't think it matters very much. It's going to be very minimal either way. I think Pld MT + War OT, might be a bit easier to maintain higher DPS as the warrior can focus more on keep up cooldowns and less on threat, but a good warrior/paladin will be able to handle either roll equally well.

As for the argument about a warrior with dps accessories being better than a paladin in tank accessories. I expect that would be true...but can't we say the same if the situation was reversed. Why couldn't a paladin just wear str accessories. I'm seeing more commonly that both jobs are beginning to wear strength accessories due to the quickly escalating level of VIT. There is no need for 10k+ hp for really anything in this game currently. More and more tanks are just setting a HP threshold and anything over that is swapped into str accessories (I think most warriors are using 9k hp as the threshold).

[Lemon8or]

PLD MT loses 50 potency on auto attacks due to being in Shield Oath over Sword Oath.

PLD also does 20% less damage just being in Shield Oath.

[stoxastic]

I don't have numbers but assuming equal gear I feel there's a bigger drop off in DPS between the the PLD stances. WAR MT can still do good DPS with Unchained and Inner Beast (it ignores Defiance dps debuff). Also, they get a crit bonus in Defiance with stacks of wrath.

PLD Sword Oath is actually good dps (not as good as WAR w/o defiance) but the drop off in Shield Oath is massive.

Although one thing to keep in mind is that depending on the fight, a WAR MT might need to save IB for some mitigation and might not be able to keep up Storm's Eye up at all times. Also, a PLD in Sword Oath dpsing pretty much make their 10 mitigation cooldowns pretty useless. WAR has also has access to internal release.

So yeah, I dunno. I think if the WAR is good enough they can do good DPS while MT.

[Alphras]

A Paladin loses 50 auto attack potency and 20% dmg on everything when he is the MT. A Warrior loses 25% dmg on everything, but ganis Unchained and Inner Beast (300 potency attack that ignores the dmg penalty).

My guess is that you would get the best dps with WAR MT and PLD OT, but someone would need to parse the actual difference.

[whiskeybravo]

War feels stronger from my exp. Both Storm's Eye and Butcher's Block have a bit more potency then Rage of Halone. Never seen 1k+ crits on PLD (of course now that higher item levels are out, its probably possible. I've pretty much stopped gearing my tanks). Also, I found it kinda strange that War has a bit more Str and apparently inherits a bit more HP (I assume from soul stone). I can have same gear on both but War has a bit more HP (the Vit stat is even the same number, but still more HP on War).

If you are really interested in the break down, though, Kitru has done extensive work breaking down the DPS of the tanks. (can't find link atm)

[Alphras]

The question wasn't which job deals more damage, but what is the better combination for total raid dps.

[Kletian]

If it's an easy threat fight or the warrior is OT then a warrior can use Storms moves instead of Butcher Block. That's going to be an even bigger factor if Ninja do slash damage.

[whiskeybravo]

The question wasn't which job deals more damage, but what is the better combination for total raid dps.

Doesn't damage decide the answer to your question? Either OT can wear dps accesories. War has a bit more utility for the OT role. Though, if I remember Kitru's analysis correctly, Sword Oath can eventually catch up to and surpass non-defiance Warrior. There's not a huge difference though.

[Giantbane]

I forget the actual numbers but the general idea was that outside of their respective tanking stances, PLD actually does a little extra damage when you include the WAR's storm's eye debuff. However, when going from their respective DPS stances (either sword oath or just not using defiance), the PLD loses more damage (no sword oath, shield oath penalty, spirit's within not always getting full potency). So maximum DPS would be WAR MT and PLD OT.

However, the problem is that if you have a WAR MT and PLD OT, the WAR will have trouble keeping their debuffs up 100% on the boss as well as holding threat off the PLD. So you're probably going to have to sacrifice some of the up time on storm's eye/storm's path. For absolute max DPS, the WAR can drop storm's path completely and alternate between storm's eye and butcher's block combos for maximum damage. But then you're losing that 10% damage debuff on the boss. Otherwise, if you're using storm's path at all, it will be difficult to keep storm's eye up 100% of the time without losing threat, so that means you're losing on DPS.

Anyhow while the highest potential for DPS is going to be WAR MT and PLD OT, it still may be better to let the PLD MT. Then the WAR can keep up both debuffs 100% of the time by alternating between SE & SP, ignoring the BB combo entirely. Threat is also never an issue in this scenario. While this may have a slightly lower DPS potential, it's a whole lot easier to execute with fewer things to worry about.