SMN - Why it is not a very interesting job and not a good upgrade from ACN

[OmegaNovaios]

So, because SCH had that design in FFXI, it should always follow that design? How about Bard in FFXIV and how it's nothing like Bard from old FF games? As I said, there is no identity for SCH outside of the ability to use Scan. They could do what they want.

I didn't say it "should" follow any design, in fact I said "Not saying we should recreate FFXI". I said FFXI's "concept" was MORE FUN than FFXIV's "concept" for what SCH is. The same way making SMN more versatile and having each pet balanced for actual use would be MORE FUN rather than alienating Ifrit and never even acknowledging that it needs to be fixed.

[Exstal]

I'm not sure how fair it is to compare SCH in a game that's been around for 11 years to one that has been around for less than 1. I'd wager level 60 Scholar should blow FFXI's 99 out of the water. We'll have to wait and see.

[Madoka]

I didn't say it "should" follow any design, in fact I said "Not saying we should recreate FFXI". I said FFXI's "concept" was MORE FUN than FFXIV's "concept" for what SCH is. The same way making SMN more versatile and having each pet balanced for actual use would be MORE FUN rather than alienating Ifrit and never even acknowledging that it needs to be fixed.

SCH has the same concept. The ability to play two roles. They're even similar (white magic is healing, black magic is attacking generally in FF games). SCH can dps or heal, two roles.

[Wolf_Shay]

SCH has the same concept. The ability to play two roles. They're even similar (white magic is healing, black magic is attacking generally in FF games). SCH can dps or heal, two roles.

Also, fairies. I don't know why some people dislike the fairies. It's a fresh take on the concept and I have to love the personality of the little buggers...granted I'm not sure where they could go for a Summon III on that one...

[OmegaNovaios]

SCH has the same concept. The ability to play two roles. They're even similar (white magic is healing, black magic is attacking generally in FF games). SCH can dps or heal, two roles.

SCH can throw in some DOTs while healing sure (but turning on Cleric Stance to do so is extra risky), but I have yet to see an EG progression party invite a SCH for a DPS slot whereas an FFXI concept would have been viable as a healer or DPS slot. The trade off for not being able to do both equally in FFXI was the MP cost of spells. SCH MP in FFXIV is so high that he can cure and throw out DOTs so the DOTs are weaker than the SMN counterpart (naturally he will never be able to compare to a SMN so why invite a SCH over a SMN?)

Eventually we will get hybrid jobs that can do this though so I won't complain too much. I have played both versions of SCH. I enjoyed the FFXI version more because doing something other than healing was an option (and personally I don't enjoy the healing role that much) and SCH had buffs similar to Foe Requiem that increased elemental damage via weather effects and also had enmity altering spells (pretty cool IMO).

Both versions of SCH do have a similar mechanic as far as special abilities goes. While the FFXI version has Strategems and the FFXIV version has stacks of Aetherflow I feel the use of Strategems were more strategic.

You can look at SMN being the BLM half of SCH but this isn't the same because you can only spec for allocated attribute on 1 job and then you need 2 sets of gear which are a bit harder to come by in FFXIV to be effective at the level of EG.

The SCH does have a healing pet which is kind of cool, but it still doesn't outweigh the original IMO especially when considering how they had to make SMN an Affliction Warlock to balance both SMN and SCH off the same class when the armoury system should have been either scrapped or balanced to work rather than slapping a job system on top just as a bandage.

IMO both SMN and SCH got the short end of the stick compared to what it was in FFXI. Sure there are many flaws in FFXI (including both jobs just mentioned) but SE had the opportunity to learn from past mistakes and improve on them with over 10 years of renovation. I feel what we have now is not worthy of 10 years in reflected correction especially when looking at SMN where it only uses Garuda-Egi out of its 3 options.

[MartaDemireux]

I'm not sure how fair it is to compare SCH in a game that's been around for 11 years to one that has been around for less than 1. I'd wager level 60 Scholar should blow FFXI's 99 out of the water. We'll have to wait and see.

To be fair Scholar in XI only came out about 6 years ago and underwent significant changes since initial implementation. The finalized SCH in XI is more akin to being about 3-4 years old.

[OmegaNovaios]

To be fair Scholar in XI only came out about 6 years ago and underwent significant changes since initial implementation. The finalized SCH in XI is more akin to being about 3-4 years old.

Well really the age of SCH works in both directions. SE knows what they themselves created (or at least they should acknowledge these things whether it was for correcting a mistake or enhancing a boon before looking at other games and copying what they do, not that this is the exact case for SCH but it is for much of FFXIV in general). The amount of time SCH has been around is time that should have been taken by both devs from FFXI and FFXIV alike looking back at how this is bad and how this is good. FFXIV:ARR may not have been out that long but considering the time FFXIV 1.0-1.99 has been out and also the years in development that came before the launch of 1.0 there was plenty of time for SE but this is their 2nd MMO in creation, unlike many companies making MMOs so they already have experience in the genre and have the advantage of experience in different time gaps throughout the ages of when MMOs just became popular through today. To not look at FFXI at all is to either say there is NOTHING good about FFXI (which is not true)/there is nothing to learn from FFXI (which is impossible whether it's to learn what to do better or to learn what not to do) or their experience amounts to nothing (which is also not true).

[Madoka]

This is FFXIV, not FFXI. There's no reason for any job to be a mirror of what it was in XI. Infact it's impossible for many due to the change of menu focused combat to mechanics focused active combat anyway.

Also I'm pretty sure DQX came out before ARR.

[OmegaNovaios]

This is FFXIV, not FFXI. There's no reason for any job to be a mirror of what it was in XI. Infact it's impossible for many due to the change of menu focused combat to mechanics focused active combat anyway.

Also I'm pretty sure DQX came out before ARR.

When have I ever stated that FFXIV should be a mirror of FFXI or even should resemble FFXI? I'm saying that FFXIV should be better than FFXI in EVERY aspect, it doesn't matter if the SCH from FFXIV is the same or different from FFXIV. What matters is if SCH from FFXIV is more fun than in FFXI. FFXIV didn't aim to eclipse FFXI, it aimed to rival it by simply being different so people would pay subs for both. Big mistake.

And are you suggesting that DQX should be another item on the list of SE's resume for MMO experience and why they should be several steps ahead of the genre as to even what I am suggesting?

[Madoka]

Because fun is subjective and many people enjoy this incarnation of SCH. It would also be completely unfair for one class to be a competent DPS and a competent healer without any drawbacks, especially one with another job crystal available.

And I just mentioned DQX to say ARR is certainly not SE's 2nd MMO.