Bard's DPS in endgame.

[twyxx]

I'd be fine giving other dps classes more utility. Being able to do similar dps is not the same as every class being the same.

The issue is that the effectiveness of a particular dps is content-dependent. In the first coil, and the extremes, bards and their dps versatility was more valuable. Bards have no content restrictions for their damage. Every fight is the same for a bard. On high movement fights or, to a smaller extent, aoe fights bards can shine in comparison to other classes. In the second coil you have more fights where it's easy to keep up melee buffs, limit blm movement, etc. Those classes are able to reach their max potential easier than they could in the first coil.

The diversity in the dps classes is good and pretty well balanced right now (blm can use/is getting some tweaks). Hopefully content will continue to be diverse and keep every class relevant.

[Akirakogami]

bard does much less than monk and summoner unless they are being forced to move alot.

Bard dps is just low. Theres no trick to it. dots, heavy shot, bloodletter, buffs.

[RinchanNau]

bard does much less than monk and summoner unless they are being forced to move alot.

Bard dps is just low. Theres no trick to it. dots, heavy shot, bloodletter, buffs.

Depends on the content. BRD does quite well even in fights that don't require that much movement if there are lots of things to dot. Hit 370 in Levi ex just yesterday.

[Alcyon1]

Bard has a good DPS in fights with several non-packed targets.

4 targets, 2 dots on each, repeat.

[Akesis]

I have never understood threads like this one. There are ALOT of people who chime in who have done little to no testing of their own and simply retype something that they have read somewhere else. Or they think something that they were told is law.

Disclaimer: All groups and all players are different. Not every group will work the same. Parsers are a grey area, so discussing them can be taboo. Take your specific group out to a dummy or test during farm content to see differences week by week (don't just take my or someone else's word for it). That being said, it takes a several pulls to get an average. I personally don't use anything under 5 pulls on a dummy with each change and often times use 10+ depending on the free time of those who come with.

People need to stop looking at an individual's numbers. Rather, look at raid-wide numbers. I personally could care a less if ZOMG monk can pull out 5-10 more dps if it costs the raid 30-40 dps.

Foe is the ONLY song that will increase the group's dps. IMO, no other song should be sang unless there is a death or people are playing badly. If you include the loss of 20% dps to the BRD from singing AP or MB this will NEVER be higher then the gain to another group members dps + the loss of time you could be singing Foe. Please test for yourself with a full raid group if you think I am wrong or misinformed. Any time spent singing AP or MB is a loss of RAID-WIDE DPS. If your group has 2 casters in it the 10% increase to each of their dps (roughly 30-40 short term dps each) from singing Foe and the 20% (roughly 60-80 short term dps) loss from the BRD if he has to sing anything else. Singing Foe for every drop of MP you can gain in a fight will be higher in every example. These numbers get even further apart if you throw BV into the equation. This example does not include good healers who are at a minimum keeping their dots up at all times. If it did, the numbers would lean further towards Foe being the song of choice.

To the people saying ZOMG my monk can do like 40-50 more dps if I give him AP. You are reading numbers from a short parse or real-time parse. If we take an average geared group with the T8 example, as it is the closest thing to a dummy fight that this turn provides. The difference over the course of the fight (10-11 mins) in giving a monk AP whenever he wants/needs it vs. not giving it to him at all is roughly 10 dps depending on your monk. If he is intentionally starving himself or trying to sustain will also change this number. Our group has seen a number closer to 3-5 dps, as I have already trained my monk to stop asking for it. now if you have 2 monks "going crazy" or a drg who is bad and cant sustain himself along with your monk. AP will make a larger increase to their dps and will bring the numbers closer to if not a small increase in raid-wide.

ZOMG my SMN can pull 40-50 more dps if I sing ballad for him. My friend, your SMN is bad or you are wrong (the numbers just don't work that way). If you want to single out your SMN for a dps increase: watch his dots, put up foe every time right before he refreshes them and give him a kick of ballad no later then the 8 min mark inside of his dot timers. extend Foe through dot sets when your mp allows, just make sure it is up every time he puts his dots up. guess what, you are not there strictly to increase your SMN's dps. This example is worthless outside of a dummy just to see how high he can go. Yes, I have done this for hours on end and the SMN in my group. He can sustain over 400 dps on a 11 min parse (his best is just over 420, i101 I think). Does it compensate for my loss of dps and the loss of dps to the raid in a raid environment... heck no. is it fun to do on a dummy, you bet!

The only time/times that ballad should be used: During progression, people are being silly and dying a lot, people are standing where they shouldn't or your tank is not using CD's correctly and healers are having to spam large heals. 99% of the time a good healer should be able to control their own MP enough to never run out. If your group has good healers who also dps in the middle. They too should never need ballad, they are already smart enough to dps when able.


Do I ever sing the other songs? You bet I do, we are a semi-support class. I am here to bring someone up after they screw up and get them back into the fold as quickly as possible. I do however, minimize the time that I do anything other then dps and sing Foe. I get them back up and move on. Remember we should be focusing on raid-wide dps, not just that person who screwed up. It is up to you to figure out the best way to get back into your Foe rotation after this happens.

---

If you want to have a discussion about dps. Sitting on a dummy for 5 mins with no: group, outside debuffs on the dummy, food or potion. A BRD standing alone and unafraid against a dummy. in i90 gear he should be 310-320 and higher if lucky with procs. By the time i105 came, we were seeing numbers right around 370-380. If 1 or more parsers were used on T8 and we were to have a DRG in the party. I would tell you that I was 399 on a just under 9 min kill and yes I was slowing dps to sing, not just focusing on myself. As a bard with gear roughly equal to the other members in their group. You should be falling in #2-#3 on each turn this tier. If you out or under gear the other members you will be higher or lower.

[KfLeX]

I'm a Lv 42 Bard there is still a lot for me to understand. I'm still a noob.

[Zerker]

IMO, no other song should be sang unless there is a death or people are playing badly. If you include the loss of 20% dps to the BRD from singing AP or MB this will NEVER be higher then the gain to another group members dps + the loss of time you could be singing Foe. Please test for yourself with a full raid group if you think I am wrong or misinformed.

So in turn 8 when my bard, our monk and our dragoon are all sitting at <100 TP with invigorate still on cooldown, Foes would be more beneficial than AP?

[givemeraptors]

So in turn 8 when my bard, our monk and our dragoon are all sitting at <100 TP with invigorate still on cooldown, Foes would be more beneficial than AP?

Thank you for teaching us what an exception is.

[Akesis]

So in turn 8 when my bard, our monk and our dragoon are all sitting at <100 TP with invigorate still on cooldown, Foes would be more beneficial than AP?

Most likely, yes.
This is the perfect example of people playing poorly, doing something incorrectly or not adapting to current gear. You are actually compensating for poor play by hurting the potential max raid-wide dps.

That is where my first statement of "all groups are different" comes into play. If your DRG can't sustain him/her self, your MNK is no where near able to sustain themselves and for some reason your BRD can't either. It might better to sing AP for a short time. Keep in mind however: AP is the most inefficient song that we have. AP gives 30 TP every 5 seconds. So, it will be 10 or more seconds per ability that they gain access to. Depending on how much MP you have, you should be able to keep any song up for about 60secs (full MP bar - 0 MP). It takes just over 150sec to regen your MP bar from 0. As a side note, I rarely sing myself much below 1k MP until late in the fight (there are times and phases that I go oom). This way I always have a buffer should someone die or poop hit the fan until we have the fight down to an art. I normally only sing for a max of 30 seconds at the cost of 75 seconds to regen while learning.

If you use those numbers: 30 secs of singing = 3 abilities that they gain access to and it will be another 75 seconds before you can sing again. This is the part where AP is a major waste of your MP and it kills your raid wide dps. If they are close enough on TP that 3 abilities make a difference, they are close enough to learn to sustain. If they are so TP starved that they are doing nothing for the bulk of the fight... They really need to learn to play their job better.

In your specific example, I'm assuming you run a BRD, MNK, DRG, caster for dps. AP: sustains 2-3 people, debuffs-1 person. Mind you, I just showed, you really aren't buffing anyone, just debuffing-1. Foe: buff-1 to 3 people, debuff-0. Your example might be one of the extremely rare exceptions to the rule. 6 hits at full damage that otherwise would have not been there and 12 hits at a -20% damage. This should not be higher then 12 hits at +10% damage (+20% if voiced) and 12 hits at normal damage (+20% vs AP/MB). Assuming your healers aren't dpsing while Foe is up. If they are, throw 5 -10 more dots into the +10% list as well as any casts that they might get in. As far as the hits gained from singing AP. They are actually still there if you don't sing.... just slightly slower going out. The 6 hits don't just magically appear, in reality it is probably more like 3-4 hits that would have not been there (assuming 2 melee and 1 brd need TP and over the course of an entire fight). They still have to worry about GCD's. For this example I am comparing 30sec of singing AP vs. 30sec of singing Foe.

As the BRD in the group, the only time I had TP issues was when I was unlucky with drops and had retarded high SS. It wasn't that big of a deal to work with, I still never went an extended period low or out of TP. Adapting to current gear and maintaining high DPS numbers is most likely the hardest part of this game atm.

As I said in my original post: Never take someone else's word for it. Get your group together and go test. Do a few parses singing AP when needed and squeaking in Foe when MP allows (make sure to attack a second dummy to simulate the Dreads). Then do a few parses only singing Foe. See which one has a higher raid-wide number. This is the only way to tell which is truly better based on your specific group and the gear that they currently have. If one group (melee or casters) refuse to go to the dummy with you so you can test... I say sing the song for the group that goes with and to heck with the other.

[Zerker]

Thank you for teaching us what an exception is.

Anytime, bub. Saying no other song should be played leaves little room for exceptions though.

Most likely, yes.
This is the perfect example of people playing poorly, doing something incorrectly or not adapting to current gear.

I don't think it's any of those, the majority of melee DPS I've talked to and many threads I've read all complain of TP issues during T8. My bard has 469 SS and combined with Selene being out, I am consistently sitting at 100 or less TP around the time the second dread spawns. Even just doing my rotation on a target dummy without Selene, I hit 0TP for a good 20-30 seconds before I can use invigorate a third time.

The 30 TP might not seem like a lot, but it's the difference between being able to keep your dots and straight shot up or just having to spam heavyshot till invigorate is back.