The future of Thief and Ninja (minor 2.2 spoilers)

[LoLo]

Gladiator uses longswords, shortswords, gladii, flachions, falxes, daggers, scimitars, (n)odachi, and plenty other types of bladed weapons at present. The weapons of Conjurers and Thaumaturges differ only in aesthetics and material composition (CNJs using wooden, while THM tends towards metals and bone). This game's weapon classification is not very specific. And a ninja is not likely to be foiled just because he's given a straight-edged weapon.

a katana is something only used by ninja's. It is not just a straight sword because it comes in a variety of styles just like the swords you mentioned. Yes dagger is used by Gladiator, but that doesn't mean Thief will be using a katana either. For reference, In FFXI Thief could use four different types of weapons, but never a katana.

[LoLo]

(post)

I hate to point this out.... but it seems that you are taking a quote from the game, inserting what you assume should be there, and saying its supported by the lore. I'm sorry but no text in the game even mentions a Thief class/job, or Ninja class/job. We do not know what job Yugiri fights in so we can not say she is a Ninja until we get official information. I don't believe she is a ninja because she doesn't use a katana. SE is very particular about their games and anything far eastern.

Thancred said he was a scandrel not a Thief. Ninja has its own fighting style, in FFXI Thief did not fight anything like a Ninja. People subjobed Ninja on Thief to cast shadows. The base job of a Thief with no subject didn't have anything magic, and you could never equip a katana, or dualweild.

[Reynhart]

We saw Yugiri fight, and excuse me, but dual-wielding combat with elemental power (At least lightning based skills) screams "Ninja"
As for Katanas, Ninjas in FFI didn't uses katanas, nor in FFV. In FFIII, they had far more options of dagger than katana. Shadow in FFVI uses both equally as do Ninjas in FFT or FFXII International, Yuffie in FFVII didn't use any of them.
And even in FFXI, they technilcaly can equip both weapons types.
Katanas are far from being "mandatory" to Ninjas. And it's very bold to claim that using Square-Enix's name when they've proven otherwise in previous games.

Thancred mentions that the "secret fraternity" he knows fight somehow similar and can adapt to the figthing style. I thinks it's safe to assume that this tease the link between "secret fratenity class" and Ninja job.
And when you see some members of this "secret fraternity" they're all dressed in green, with iconic shirt and bandanna. They really look like Thieves. And sorry, but "scoundrels" and "thieves" are pretty close in meaning.

And last, we're not in FFXI. Jobs in FFXIV are not what they are in FFXI.
Thief evolving into Ninja would precisely gives them the magical aspect of the job. As for Dual Wield, we won't have real "Dual Wield". After all, we know traits are not cross-class, so what's the point of having dual wield ? Ninja's weapon will just be "dual-one-handed-weapon" exactly like Monks. And, by the way, in FFXI, Thief was given Dual Wield in the end.

[rwyan]

I suspect whatever they do, it will maintain the current pattern (but then again, all 'rules' are made to be broken)...

Classes have not been named after iconic jobs/classes from previous FFs. With 2.0, we got the arcanist which came with two jobs, one healer/support and one dps. I imagine any new classes will follow suit, one group support and one dps. I suspect Thief and Ninja will be jobs should they ever find their way into FF14. Considering the naming conventions behind classes, I would venture to say their class will be Rogue but 'Scoundrel' does fit well amongst the current class names.

[Reynhart]

That rule wasn't made by the actuel development team, but by the previous one.
Even the Arcanist was hinted in 1.0 (Guild in Limsa Lominsa)

And I don't think it can bring us something really unique and useful as a job.
Steal ? I can't see how it would be important. In offline games, it's usefull for stealing one-time items from one-time ennemies and mainly new equipment. In an MMO, there can't be that one-time-thief-only loot.
Flee ? Everybody has Sprint
The rest of THF arsenal is...traits...like Evasion Boost, Agility Bonus, and so on...but traits are from classes, not jobs.

Even considering FFXI, you can add the critical hit from behind...which the PGL already has, the transfering enmity skill (Ok, that would be new) and the Gil stealing skill, pretty useless to choose that particular job in a raid, same as Hide.
And Hide could very well fit into a Ninja arsenal, if the two are related.

[melflomil]

Since you put it that way. Dagger/Rouge will be th class and Ninja being a Job. Don't really see how theif will fit in.

[Cariborne]

I can actually see Scout as a Class being really fun, especially if it branches out into a Thief Tank and a Ninja DPS. Now, I know a lot of people will find Thief Tank weird, but hold on.

I think of Zidane from FF9. He was really strong for a tank, he protected girls could take a hit and could distract his enemies. That's pretty much what a tank does. The way I see it, at level 30 Thief gets a Stance like Paladins that increases their HP, reduces damage taken by 30%, converts some of their Critical into Parry and increases the Threat they do. At 35 they get their "Steal" which is actually just a Taunt which increases the threat they do for a short time after as well. At 40 they get a Defensive Cooldown probably like, dodge all attacks for the next 5 seconds. At 45 they get an AoE Threat generating attack, at 50 they get a Defensive Cooldown that also deals damage. They would share their gear with Monks but because of the stance it'd be tanking gear for them.

As for the Ninja, I see them using their Ninjitsu to debuff enemies while empowering themselves. Kind of a self sustained support dps, similar to the bard. While both classes would use Daggers, for the Ninja their Unique Daggers would actually be Kunai or Ninja Swords. Now, from here the class itself will be based around DPS which is why Thief gets the Stance at 30. But it's combo's would deal increased threat as a Scout if done in a certain order, but deal extra damage if done another way. So the Ninja and Thief while using similar moves will pull off different effects.

The way I see Thief being made is Lv.30 Scout, Lv. 15 Lancer and then having Marauder as a Tertiary Class. I feel the Lancer Parry CD is strong for a tank, and I'm sad Paladin and Warrior never got it. I thought about Gladiator as the Tertiary Class but the way I see it, Thief is just like Provoke but a bit better as it temporarily would increase the threat generated after it's used. The Thief would be the closest thing to an Evasive Tank we have and because of their gear set up would deal I'd imagine the most damage out of all the tanks.

As for the Ninja, I see them being Lv.30 Scout, Lv.15 Pugilist and then having Archer as the Tertiary Class. The Ninja is made to DPS, while I imagine the Ninjitsu's will do some amount of Support, like Flame Jitsu making your allies hit the enemy a bit harder after its used on an enemy, Flood Jitsu causing you to attack faster after it used and Lightning Jitsu possibly slowing the attack speed of your enemy, they'll be the Support DPS like the Bard, but have more damage because they don't have the range.

I feel like doing it like this would do two things for the game, it'd get us more Support DPS as people like Ninjas, so as a whole everyone's DPS will go up if they're a support like I think. It'll also give us another option for tanking, I have a friend who loved the old school druid tank in WoW, they dodged a lot because they didn't have Block and parry to help mitigate damage. The Thief would be a bit different because they get Parry from Crit, but they'll still take a bit more damage then a Warrior or Paladin because they use light armor, and would have to balance their cooldowns better with their healers. While dealing more damage for those who are interested in tanking, but still want to deal a lot of damage. As it stands now, I don't find Paladin or Warriors are really better, they excel in different roles and have different play styles and can all do the same thing. I feel like the Thief would fit there as well, a bit riskier if you're new to tanking but excelling in the right hands.

Atleast, that's what I hope will happen. People seem to be focusing on what Thieves are in other games, they forget about the power house that Zidane is, how much Threat Control they had in XI. They focus on Steal and Flee, which while they are staples to the Thief, isn't all they have. Steal works as a Taunt, everyone has Sprint and battles work different that Flee isn't really needed. As for Ninjas, I really hope they aren't tanks like they were in XI, they should be a DPS and if they're returning with Ninjitsu they should benefit themselves and the group with them. It's an MMO, not just an RPG. :P

[Reynhart]

Damage Taken -30% is a LOOOOOT, considering PLD "only" has 20%

For the THF tank, there is one problem, and it's called level sync.
Suppose you get your THF and you register for a low-level dungeon where you won't have your lvl30 Stance. How will you tank in your DPS-oriented class ?

As for THF in FFXI, they indeed had hate control, but not as tank. The same could be done in FFXIV, but threat is far less an issue than in FFXI.

And the way I see it, Evasion tank is a problem. Too little evasion and it's totally unreliable, too much evasion and it's overpowered. FFXI did not manage the balance, I'm afraid FFXIV won't.

I haven't forgotten Zidane, he's not a powerhouse as a THF but as a Genome

[Rasylia]

Im just hoping that we do not get a thief/ninja/whatever kind of tank. Lets be realistic, how the heck is a guy/girl with daggers supposed to tank mobs? With Sword and shield - yes. With an two-handed axe - yes. With 2 daggers - what? >.<

[rwyan]

Steal doesn't have to be the concept of stealing items. Someone made an interesting point, "Steal" could be abstracted into the idea of stealing enmity - making the class/job/whatever a tank.