Tanks/Threat/lowlevels Please fix this.

[tdogg]

For PLDs? Fast Blade>Savage Blade>Rage of Halone. It's the only t3 combo that PLDs have.

Thanks! I've actually been using that with my Gladiator as well.

[Kitru]

Tanks are tanks. They are not dps.

Thank you for that entirely self referential statement. Apparently everyone was confused on this point.

Warriors heal themselves.

You obviously don't know WAR. WAR self heals are a minute portion of our total mitigation. Saying that WARs are about self healing is like saying that PLDs are all about casting stoneskin.

Also, as to your whole "tanks aren't supposed to DPS argument", I'm regularly able to put out 160 DPS while in tank stance on my WAR and 130 on my PLD in fights where good DPS pull 250. As long as you're not making the healers' life appreciably harder, it's perfectly appropriate to crank out more damage. I'll use BB>SE in most dungeons because SP isn't really useful which is only marginally better that a PLD putting on SwO (though it's also a bigger increase to their damage than SE is). Just because it's not the #1 priority for a tank doesn't mean that it's not something that you should care about.

That is an example of how some people think sword oath works in relation to shield oath. I have even had someone tell me that sword oath generated more threat than shield oath. Many Paladins who are even clearning turn 5 pre 2.2 believe sword oath is a skill you can use while tanking.

Arguing that people don't know what they're talking about doesn't really mean much. Plenty of people have no idea what they're talking about regardless of what evidence or even the tooltips themselves suggest. For example, you have no idea what you're talking about when you bring up WARs. I know of WARs that clear t5 that honestly think that BB spam is the best way for them to generate and maintain enmity. The order you acquire abilities has nothing to do with your actual understanding of the ability. How would swapping SwO and ShO's placement teach people that ShO is the better tank stance? If anything, because it's higher level, the people that would currently believe SwO is better for enmity gen are probably liable to think that it actually *is* better because you get it later if/when they get swapped.

I'm still don't see how your argument even has an impact upon the level in which you get ShO and SwO. The leveling dungeons are a complete joke to tank. Even when a tank is in SwO, I still spend virtually all of my time in the 1-40 dungeons with Cleric Stance on. There isn't a pressing need of any kind to swap SwO with ShO since it doesn't actually affect balance in any way, shape, or form. At best, it makes leveling in a limited range marginally easier. The devs aren't liable to change the level unless there's a good reason for it, and, honestly, the most you've come up with is some perturbation that PLDs get a stance that increases their damage before they get one that increases enmity/DR. The same could be said about Maim or Fracture on a WAR because you get those before you get access to a vast majority of your tank tools.

Basically, the order of abilities is what it is. There's isn't a good reason to swap the order because it affects such a small level range that isn't even problematic in the first place. Get over it.

[Coth_X]

Firstly I would like to note again that I stated that I basically never lose threat as long as i'm paying attention .

Secondly what i'm saying here is that its boring to play Paladin during low levels because the skills given seem pointless and boring. I am asking that they adjust the level at which Shield Oath is given, swapping it with Sword Oath since sword oath is an OT mechanic...

I have been running the low level dungeons and I always seem to struggle keeping threat on mobs while on paladin. I never actually lose threat but its much more difficult and the dps players always get very very close to pulling threat even though I never even come close to losing threat to high level content mobs.

No, you have clearly said, you are almost losing mobs to dps in low level dungeons. Which indicates a problem with your tanking.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though, its been awhile since I played my pld cause its so boring, but I'll do my low level roulette with it and see how I do.

[Ooshima]

No, you have clearly said, you are almost losing mobs to dps in low level dungeons. Which indicates a problem with your tanking.

+1. If not I wouldn't bother touching on rotating combos on mobs.

So please dont try to tank and 'dps' at the same time. Its a joke, and you are only making the healers job needlessly harder.[/HB]

So.. what are WARs for? One of their attraction is that they are more flexible on what you can do with it and it obviously have some good DPS capabilities. You haven't seen WARs that goes full DPS accessories on the second coil of bahamut and tanked just fine.

And FYI, WARs are technically the preferred tank for Brayflox HM SR due to their DPS capabilities there which makes the run slightly faster than a PLD tank. (since you touched on Brayflox).

[IndigoHawk]

Paladins can flash more at low levels. It's boring but flash generates good threat.

However, flash spam is mana inefficient. A paladin can run out of mana if they flash too much to keep up with a synced aoe dps. Sometimes the threat margin is too thin to rotate halone without losing threat to either synced aoe or synced single target dps. That's frustrating.

It's definitely easier to keep threat at max level. There's a balance issue for synced tanks that makes synced tanking a bit frustrating.

Synced warriors can have similar problems, although it's harder to get into a situation that shows it. In some low level content (like the guildhests posies or stinging back), synced dps are still quite effective at going through things, while tanks can get resource starved trying to keep up and establish threat (warriors run out of TP when dps go through enemies too quickly, especially when dps don't give warriors a chance to position and overpower the next wave of enemies en masse).

[Wintersandman]

This thread makes my head hurt. I should have closed it. You can look me up on lodestone if you want to see my credentials.

Sword Oath is fine at level 30. I loved it when I picked it up. If the tank is using it in a fight, holding threat and it's not burdening the group, I see no issues.

Shield Oath is by far my favorite skill to have up post 40 but I will go into sword oath when off tanking. Since, I am not worried about threat as an off tank.

In regards to low levels. This boils down to MP management, rotation, and skill knowledge. Flash spam is not effective for holding threat against a good dps. It never will be. The best thing to do is cycle and use flash as a buffer to complete your next cycle. This will alleviate MP drain/strain. Also it is better for overall group threat.

[Senfei]

Why does it matter if you are "almost losing hate" on mobs in a dungeon? Did you hold hate until the enemy was dead? Did at any point the enemies break away and attack DPS/Heals? No? Good, mission accomplished.

[Coth_X]

I did my low level roulette as pld and it was the same as I remembered it, boring. I only lost threat once(to a trigger happy archer) because I wasn't used to my hotbar setup anymore, and was kind of slow on the presses.

Going back to playing war 100% again.

[Daniolaut]

No, you have clearly said, you are almost losing mobs to dps in low level dungeons. Which indicates a problem with your tanking.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though, its been awhile since I played my pld cause its so boring, but I'll do my low level roulette with it and see how I do.

Thank you for that entirely self referential statement. Apparently everyone was confused on this point.



You obviously don't know WAR. WAR self heals are a minute portion of our total mitigation. Saying that WARs are about self healing is like saying that PLDs are all about casting stoneskin.

Also, as to your whole "tanks aren't supposed to DPS argument", I'm regularly able to put out 160 DPS while in tank stance on my WAR and 130 on my PLD in fights where good DPS pull 250. As long as you're not making the healers' life appreciably harder, it's perfectly appropriate to crank out more damage. I'll use BB>SE in most dungeons because SP isn't really useful which is only marginally better that a PLD putting on SwO (though it's also a bigger increase to their damage than SE is). Just because it's not the #1 priority for a tank doesn't mean that it's not something that you should care about.



Arguing that people don't know what they're talking about doesn't really mean much. Plenty of people have no idea what they're talking about regardless of what evidence or even the tooltips themselves suggest. For example, you have no idea what you're talking about when you bring up WARs. I know of WARs that clear t5 that honestly think that BB spam is the best way for them to generate and maintain enmity. The order you acquire abilities has nothing to do with your actual understanding of the ability. How would swapping SwO and ShO's placement teach people that ShO is the better tank stance? If anything, because it's higher level, the people that would currently believe SwO is better for enmity gen are probably liable to think that it actually *is* better because you get it later if/when they get swapped.

I'm still don't see how your argument even has an impact upon the level in which you get ShO and SwO. The leveling dungeons are a complete joke to tank. Even when a tank is in SwO, I still spend virtually all of my time in the 1-40 dungeons with Cleric Stance on. There isn't a pressing need of any kind to swap SwO with ShO since it doesn't actually affect balance in any way, shape, or form. At best, it makes leveling in a limited range marginally easier. The devs aren't liable to change the level unless there's a good reason for it, and, honestly, the most you've come up with is some perturbation that PLDs get a stance that increases their damage before they get one that increases enmity/DR. The same could be said about Maim or Fracture on a WAR because you get those before you get access to a vast majority of your tank tools.

Basically, the order of abilities is what it is. There's isn't a good reason to swap the order because it affects such a small level range that isn't even problematic in the first place. Get over it.

+1. If not I wouldn't bother touching on rotating combos on mobs.



So.. what are WARs for? One of their attraction is that they are more flexible on what you can do with it and it obviously have some good DPS capabilities. You haven't seen WARs that goes full DPS accessories on the second coil of bahamut and tanked just fine.

And FYI, WARs are technically the preferred tank for Brayflox HM SR due to their DPS capabilities there which makes the run slightly faster than a PLD tank. (since you touched on Brayflox).

/facepalm
smh

however you want to put it.

You guys are losing the point trying to say completely irrelevant things.

Sure a warrior pushes more dps than a Paladin I stated that very thing in my second post.

Also no there is nothing wrong with how i tank, i specifically said i dont lose threat but that its ineffective. (Because i'd like to ENJOY it by being more efficient.)

I'm not going to keep repeating the same things over and over so you guys can pick one thing out i said, throwing away everything else so you can feel like you've proved me wrong or what not.

If the devs want there to be more tanks and have the jobs more enjoyable when so many people whine and complain that paladin is boring simply because they feel its "1,2,3" is the only thing you can do thats remotely effective then they will do something.

I could go on and on about how i play paladin in end game and use literally every skill and greatly enjoy the job but it will do no good cause clearly youre all rooted in how you choose to play the game and thats your choice.

I'm only asking 1 simple thing which isnt much of a difficult request, and that is to swap Sword oath and shield oath acquisition levels. I also threw in having defiance and Shield Oath/Sword Oath not drop.

End of input on this thread its up to the devs now.

[Coth_X]

I wasn't saying something completely irrelevant. If you are going to come on here asking that pld be changed just for 4 dungeons worth of low level dungeons and that the need for that change is that you are almost losing hate. Yeah, I'm gonna say something is wrong with your tanking or you aren't communicating with your dps.

No. I'd rather have more class specific mounts, some i90 4man dungeons, and all sorts of other tweaks before a job ability swap, that up until now, hasn't seemed like much of an issue.

You are asking for a tweak that would only affect brayflox, sunken temple, cutter's cry, and 2 lvls worth of haukke manor.