Parry...

[Pizzaparty7]

Regardless of how good or bad parry is, what else would you gear for? Speed requires more than you can realistically get to make a noticeable change. Crit is nicer on WAR to be sure but for PLD, base crit rate is so crap that you're gonna need a lot to see a big impact. Determination is good but takes a lot to add a little. Parry is 1) readily available on most tank gear and 2) itemized to a large amount of the accuracy pieces. Whether it is a meaningful form of mitigation isn't important, if your raid needs more damage, it shouldn't have to rely on the tanks to carry the dps check.

[Menae]

You completely missed my point. Parry IS equally effective on a paladin if not more effective purely because it theoretically gives a very small chance for the paladin to never take a straight hit.
You need to throw away the blocked attacks to find the parry chance, your not doing that, because once an attack is not blocked, it has the exact same chances of being parried as the warrior does. The warrior doesn't suddenly get a boosted effect from the same chances, he is just missing the first chance to reduce damage.
You literally read my post, and then changed what I was saying in your head. My point was NOT the blatantly obvious "Block comes first" statement. It was that you need to throw away blocked hits, and then re-run the Paladin Parry numbers.
Say you did a 100,000 Hit test, and 3000 were blocked, then you need to keep going until you fill in those 3000 hits with non blocks in order to see the actual parry chance.
The only thing what you said proves is that paladins effectively will gain a small chance to NOT take a straight hit if both Block and Parry are theoretically high enough.

What value does looking at it like that have? How does ignoring that block happens help us determine the relative worth of parry? I understand that a paladin has the exact same chance to parry a non-blocked attack as a warrior has to parry a non-blocked attack. The difference is that the warrior will face more non-blocked attacks, because they cannot block. At the end of the fight, the boss doesn't think, "Gee, that Paladin blocked 30 swings, better hit him until he hasn't blocked 30 strikes to make up the difference!" No, he hits you in the face for a specific number of times based on your raid dps and strategy, and for every swing a paladin would block, a warrior would get a chance to parry that the paladin would not.

If you block an attack, you know what all your parry itemization did for you? Nothing. It didn't even get a chance to fire. In that case, it's wasted stats.

Look at it this way: If a paladin had a 99% chance to block, and a warrior zero, who gets more out of itemizing for parry?
Alternatively: Parry on warrior is a chance to reduce damage on every single incoming physical attack. Parry on a paladin is a chance to reduce damage on 70-80% of incoming physical attacks. Who gets more out of itemizing for parry?
Alternatively: A new stat called guts comes out that gives an x% chance on physical hit to shrug off 20% of the damage. However, for warriors, it's only x/2% chance. Who gets more out of itemizing for guts?

You are saying that parry reduces damage taken and number of damage spikes taken by the same amount for Paladins over about 12500 swings as it reduces damage taken and damage spikes taken for warriors over 10000? I absolutely agree with you! And that's why it's a better stat for warriors!

And to Pizza: I'm not sure whether you can realistically gear for anything else, but I just like theorycraft. It's fun.

[Lord_Zlatan]

guts

Excellent star ocean reference ^^

[subteraneanbird]

Regardless of how good or bad parry is, what else would you gear for? Speed requires more than you can realistically get to make a noticeable change. Crit is nicer on WAR to be sure but for PLD, base crit rate is so crap that you're gonna need a lot to see a big impact. Determination is good but takes a lot to add a little. Parry is 1) readily available on most tank gear and 2) itemized to a large amount of the accuracy pieces. Whether it is a meaningful form of mitigation isn't important, if your raid needs more damage, it shouldn't have to rely on the tanks to carry the dps check.

I'm pretty sure exactly zero people are suggesting that tanks should gear to help pass DPS checks, because that is silly. More that in the grand realm of theory, being able to gear your damage up to shave a reasonable amount of time (like 30 seconds) off a battle could be more mitigation than parry if it turns out parry really is as ineffective as has been suggested. Obviously the bad itemization in this game makes that unlikely anytime soon, but who knows!

[ZDamned]

@Menae: If you want to think that way, then fine, keep being unrealistic. But the reality is that Parry works equally on both, and it's not like your taking it away from a warrior anyway, so I don't understand why the comment is even being made in the first place.

Finally, Pizzaparty, Accuracy is WAY easier to gear for at ilvl 110 with DPS gear, Parry gear gives issues, and you can't get the best parry pieces because of accuracy, even with food.

[Menae]

@Menae: If you want to think that way, then fine, keep being unrealistic. But the reality is that Parry works equally on both, and it's not like your taking it away from a warrior anyway, so I don't understand why the comment is even being made in the first place.

I'm not the one being unrealistic; that said, I'm running out of ways to convince you that my methodology is right, and I don't know that any further debate between us will be productive. We've made our arguments; I suppose we'll have to let the folks who read them think for themselves and decide for themselves who made the better case.

As for why this was even brought up, I remind you that a few posts ago I stated I enjoy theorycraft, and I direct your attention to this post:

Parry is even better for Warriors, because they don't have blocks to lower their parry. Pld parry x% of the hits they dont blocks; Warrior parry x% of the hits, period.

Somebody disagreed with it, I disagreed with them, and you disagreed with me, and that's how we got here.

I wish you the best of luck in all your future tanking endeavors, Z.

[SwordCoheir]

@Menae: If you want to think that way, then fine, keep being unrealistic. But the reality is that Parry works equally on both, and it's not like your taking it away from a warrior anyway, so I don't understand why the comment is even being made in the first place.

She isn't wrong, basically what she's getting at is the more factors you have in place that works in tandem with Parry (block, evasion, movement, position, etc.) the more it effects the relative worth of parry. From a mathematical standpoint yes Parry standalone will give you even returns, but for every dodged attack, for every block, for every time a monster uses a magical move, poor position, etc., it reduces the mathematical weight that stat carries. Most of the time it can be impossible to properly apply such theories to paper, especially since we cannot entirely predict the flow of every fight or every instance.

The reason some think the DPS stats carry more weight in some instances is because it's easier to eliminate or control some of the factors that work in tandem with our attacks. For instance, the need for capped accuracy to ensure hate control also eliminates the opportunity for a monster to dodge, and sense most mobs don't have the ability to parry or block it removes another factor that works in tandem with our attacks leaving much less room for mobs to reduce our damage input.

[ManaKeKz]

@Menae: If you want to think that way, then fine, keep being unrealistic.

Actually, Menae is looking at the realistic scenario. If a PLD and WAR in equal gear tank the same content, taking the exact same amount of hits, the warrior parries more hits. Always. Why? Because he doesn't block. Sticking with the going example of 25% parry for both and 25% block for the pld, on a sample size of 10.000 incoming hits, the WAR will parry 2500 times, the PLD will parry 1875 hits.
You can't just say "ignore the blocked hits" because that's not how combat works, the boss hits 10.000 times on either tank, no more, no less.