Confirmation of Uncapped Raids. Confirmation of a terrible decision.

[MeowyWowie]

**Long post**

What's so wrong with capped dungeons? When I hear the term "capped" I don't think "anyone over the cap isn't allowed in" I think "anyone over the cap gets scaled down in level." In my opinion, this is how instanced content should be designed.

Scaling down high level players to the level cap keeps content interesting at any level. Having a cap ensures that the R30 dungeons will remain learning experiences for the new players, even if they get help from higher level, more experienced players. It also keeps it interesting and challenging for higher level players. The cooperation needed in level capped content gets newbies ready for R50 content of similar nature. Letting a uncapped R50 in with them completely negates any challenge there could have been, and thus it's no longer a learning experience.

Level caps also benefit everyone in terms of EXP. In this case, anyone 30 or higher will always net the same EXP in a capped dungeon, it won't get lower as your level rises. So even at R40 you'll still look forward to doing R30 dungeons even after you got all the loot from them. With uncapped dungeons, once you get the loot, you're done. Just one more piece of content that equates to wasted development time because it's completed far too quickly/easily.

Level caps should never be optional. Because just like the science of physics will tell you, everything always takes the path of least resistance. If made optional, most people will still take the easy route because it's far more efficient. SE should be the ones controlling the difficulty, not the players. And for those saying that this is not what they've seen in other games, there's reasons for that too. Those games likely don't have multiple classes per character. The higher levels likely didn't need anything from the lower level dungeons anymore. They were probably spending their time with content created for their level.

Look at Guild Wars 2. The entire game is being designed around player skill. Not armor, not e-peen weapons, just skill. Guess what one of the major differences is between GW2 and most other MMOs out there? Level scaling. They do it in nearly the entire world. High level characters can't just go into low level zones and rape everything. There are no 1 shot kills. Granted you will still be a bit more powerful when scaled down compared to someone that actually is the same level, you're are by no means a god compared to them. Why do they do this? Because they realize that to keep skill the main focus of the game, everything needs to always be balanced. Level scaling is one of the best ways of achieving this goal. GW2 takes it to an extreme, and I'm by no means suggesting this. But for instanced content, scaling down to level caps just seem right.

SE had their experience with level caps in FFXI too. CoP was by far the best expansion in the game, largely due to the difficulty thanks to capped content. It kept things fun, at least for me. You weren't able to rush through the entire storyline in one weekend. With each mission you beat, you felt like you really accomplished something. Getting Sea access or your CoP ring almost felt like you beat the game, because you actually had to work for it. You learned from your mistakes, and were always trying new strategies. Those were the good old days. Now, ever since they removed the level caps, CoP has become a total joke. And that is what uncapped dungeons will be as well, a joke.

FFXIV is far too easy as it is right now. One of the new development team's main objectives was to create more difficult and strategic content. How can that be possible if you can just have someone 20 levels above the target range come in and do it all for you?

Do you learn anything from that?
Is that fun?
Do you feel you've earned the loot at the end that way?
Does it make you feel like you've accomplished anything at all?

I don't see how anyone could answer "Yes" to any of those questions. And yet, those are some of the main reasons people play MMOs.

MMOs are meant to be a learning experience. You're supposed to have fun. You should take pride in what you've accomplished, because you earned it.

SE doesn't have to copy everything from other games. In fact, that's probably the last thing they should be doing. Main reason being, other games already do it, and better, and even many of those are failing. What makes you think it'll work out for FFXIV?

SE knows how to design level capped content. They have experience in it. They need to stick to what they know. They should improve on their previous ideas, make them better and more accessible to all types of players. Uncapped dungeons is just another mistake that they cannot afford to make right now. They need to release content that will last at least until the next patch. You'd think they would have figured this out by now, I guess not...

[normalforce]

What? The game play style that 95% of the MMOs out there use? Hell, I cant think of one game that has level restrictions on entering a dungeon.

That's not the point I was making. I was pointing out the simple flaw in that portion of your argument, one, if you are trying to persuade people into your line of thinking, you shouldn't use.

[Physic]

that's a lot of what if's hell look how long it has taken just to get dungeons, you actually think all that is going to be in a dungeon you will out rank in a few levels?

it would be pretty good game design if it was. And it wouldnt take that long. you simply put in some type of currency, or you add level 30 gear that crafters can upgrade at level 40 and upgrade that peice at 50. But putting these thing in, if the dungeon can be easy moded would be really bad design.

Basically building strong mid level content is about building things that actually have value, or you can start working on for later. Making the game endgame heavy for anything that matters will always marginalize any midlevel content.

spread the challenge through the leveling process, so the game doesnt become just about abandoning leves untill you are 50, and make content that scales or is useful as you level. This solves the problem of midlevel content, and making all gear useless everytime you increase caps.

another option is allowing you to trade in old excellent gear for points/materials on new gear. But the only way you can really make anything of lower level targeted things worthwhile, is if you make it challenging as well, otherwise you just have level 50s easymoding low level things for rewards that might be usefull at higher levels.

[Rentahamster]

and many times it has been said and every time it is wrong, the only way this effects anyone is if they let it effect them

Nope. This is an MMO. Item balance affects all of us, whether we like it or not.

, rank 25 gear means shit in this game rank 25 content also means shit in this game

You are content to keep the perceived value of rank 25 items low? Ideally, rare and special raid items should be kept at a high value to in crease prestige and merit. Building up the perceived worth of items in this game is a step to making each player more invested in the world.

Rank 25 gear is not good compared to rank 50 gear, yes, but that's not the point. Rank 25 raid gear is good compared to other rank 25 normal gear. Being able to acquire rank 25 raid gear too easily means that the best gear available at rank 25 is also the easiest to obtain. No one would ever want to buy rank 25 gear from a crafter anymore. There would be no point. Just steamroll the dungeon with your rank 50 class to get items for your rank 25 class. This isn't good balance.

And really I'm sorry but it doesn't matter any rank 25 content is going to get old in a week regardless of level cap. it takes only a few days to out level that content anyways so people are all in an uproar for nothing at all. If anything folks should be complaining about only getting 1 rank 50 dungeon.

That is the whole reason behind the cap. If there was a cap, you'd never out-level the content, so its shelf life would be extended since it will always be a challenging experience.

Given the extreme lack of content right not, it is not a good idea to just brush off any new content and say that you don't care if it gets old in a week. You want to implement it as efficiently as possible, extending its life, so that the devs have that much more time to create additional content later.

Game balance, in an ideal MMO, works at all levels of the game, not just endgame. If you only balance for endgame, then everything's gonna get screwed up later on in the game's life when max level is raised to 70 (just like how it always is screwed up in most other MMOs when the max rank is increased).

[Gally]

this isnt about their experience

its about them wanting to force you to experience the same way they do

D:

To each his/her own i say :/

[Rentahamster]

Level 25 gear has zero effect on game balance especially when there is no PvP and said gear will most likely be rare/exclusive and will have no effect on the economy since it can not be sold

It does have an effect on class balance. This isn't like other MMOs. Character binding keeps players from twinking their alts. In this game, all our alts are on the same character, so that doesn't work. It does have an effect on the economy because all the best items are the easiest to get so no one would want to buy normal rank 25 items anymore.

I don't see how that is any worse then Making a shit ton of gil then buying all HQ items for your lower level characters as you rank them up.

Buying all HQ items for your lower level characters is better because it helps the economy that way. If you could just twink your lower rank classes with raid gear, there would be no reason to participate in the rank 25 gear economy.

I don't feel I ruined the game for myself when I went out and solo'ed/duo'ed all the R30 NMs for gear for my lower ranking classes. Infact I had a lot of fun doing it~

That's open-world. It's different. Open world content is supposed to be "open" to everyone with no restrictions. "Instanced" dungeons are specifically designed, therefore can be tailored to a particular rank range and playstyle.

And while you may have not felt it, the influx of items into the world like that did have an effect on the economy whether you were aware of it or not.

[Perrin_Aybarra]

that's a lot of what if's hell look how long it has taken just to get dungeons, you actually think all that is going to be in a dungeon you will out rank in a few levels?

you realize that this is why we are wanting those caps right? because 1st it takes very long for SE to give any sort of content, even considering last year's events. But also because we want the content that we do get to be well implemented to begin with and the more "what if"s that can be the more you can build on the content that you put in.

By just sh**ting out content that gets done after a month (im generous, they said they were gonna be hard) and never look back on it, doesn't give room for improvement and nothing can be built on it. So we will all be there waiting for them this sh** out more content that we will get 6 months later.

Like Physic said, if they made it capped there is a lot of things that they can add and provide replay value to the content we do get.

[Perrin_Aybarra]

**Long post**

What's so wrong with capped dungeons? When I hear the term "capped" I don't think "anyone over the cap isn't allowed in" I think "anyone over the cap gets scaled down in level." In my opinion, this is how instanced content should be designed.

Scaling down high level players to the level cap keeps content interesting at any level. Having a cap ensures that the R30 dungeons will remain learning experiences for the new players, even if they get help from higher level, more experienced players. It also keeps it interesting and challenging for higher level players. The cooperation needed in level capped content gets newbies ready for R50 content of similar nature. Letting a uncapped R50 in with them completely negates any challenge there could have been, and thus it's no longer a learning experience.

Level caps also benefit everyone in terms of EXP. In this case, anyone 30 or higher will always net the same EXP in a capped dungeon, it won't get lower as your level rises. So even at R40 you'll still look forward to doing R30 dungeons even after you got all the loot from them. With uncapped dungeons, once you get the loot, you're done. Just one more piece of content that equates to wasted development time because it's completed far too quickly/easily.

Level caps should never be optional. Because just like the science of physics will tell you, everything always takes the path of least resistance. If made optional, most people will still take the easy route because it's far more efficient. SE should be the ones controlling the difficulty, not the players. And for those saying that this is not what they've seen in other games, there's reasons for that too. Those games likely don't have multiple classes per character. The higher levels likely didn't need anything from the lower level dungeons anymore. They were probably spending their time with content created for their level.

Look at Guild Wars 2. The entire game is being designed around player skill. Not armor, not e-peen weapons, just skill. Guess what one of the major differences is between GW2 and most other MMOs out there? Level scaling. They do it in nearly the entire world. High level characters can't just go into low level zones and rape everything. There are no 1 shot kills. Granted you will still be a bit more powerful when scaled down compared to someone that actually is the same level, you're are by no means a god compared to them. Why do they do this? Because they realize that to keep skill the main focus of the game, everything needs to always be balanced. Level scaling is one of the best ways of achieving this goal. GW2 takes it to an extreme, and I'm by no means suggesting this. But for instanced content, scaling down to level caps just seem right.

SE had their experience with level caps in FFXI too. CoP was by far the best expansion in the game, largely due to the difficulty thanks to capped content. It kept things fun, at least for me. You weren't able to rush through the entire storyline in one weekend. With each mission you beat, you felt like you really accomplished something. Getting Sea access or your CoP ring almost felt like you beat the game, because you actually had to work for it. You learned from your mistakes, and were always trying new strategies. Those were the good old days. Now, ever since they removed the level caps, CoP has become a total joke. And that is what uncapped dungeons will be as well, a joke.

FFXIV is far too easy as it is right now. One of the new development team's main objectives was to create more difficult and strategic content. How can that be possible if you can just have someone 20 levels above the target range come in and do it all for you?

Do you learn anything from that?
Is that fun?
Do you feel you've earned the loot at the end that way?
Does it make you feel like you've accomplished anything at all?

I don't see how anyone could answer "Yes" to any of those questions. And yet, those are some of the main reasons people play MMOs.

MMOs are meant to be a learning experience. You're supposed to have fun. You should take pride in what you've accomplished, because you earned it.

SE doesn't have to copy everything from other games. In fact, that's probably the last thing they should be doing. Main reason being, other games already do it, and better, and even many of those are failing. What makes you think it'll work out for FFXIV?

SE knows how to design level capped content. They have experience in it. They need to stick to what they know. They should improve on their previous ideas, make them better and more accessible to all types of players. Uncapped dungeons is just another mistake that they cannot afford to make right now. They need to release content that will last at least until the next patch. You'd think they would have figured this out by now, I guess not...

wow excellent post Meowy, a long read but I quote it so that it doesn't get skipped. I think people should take the time to read it.

[MeowyWowie]

wow excellent post Meowy, a long read but I quote it so that it doesn't get skipped. I think people should take the time to read it.

Thanks Perrin. I too wish that people will take the time to read it.

SE already seems to have designed the game catered perfectly to level capped content. (Most) gear can be worn at any level, so you never have to worry about getting "capped gear sets." Abilities can be used at any level once you obtain them so you never have to worry about redoing any macros or your action bar, they just get scaled down. Their decision to go with mostly instanced content allows them to control the difficulty of almost the entire game very easily with level caps.

Someone should start a poll and see who wants challenging content that has high replay value vs easy content that is no longer desired once you've completed it.

The point is, with the way they designed the game, SE has an opportunity to very easily keep most of the content challenging, enjoyable and worth doing at any level. This is what players have been asking for isn't it? I can't see why people would be opposed to level caps when you take this into consideration. The pros far outweigh the cons if you ask me.

[Perrin_Aybarra]

Thanks Perrin. I too wish that people will take the time to read it.

SE already seems to have designed the game catered perfectly to level capped content. (Most) gear can be worn at any level, so you never have to worry about getting "capped gear sets." Abilities can be used at any level once you obtain them so you never have to worry about redoing any macros or your action bar, they just get scaled down. Their decision to go with mostly instanced content allows them to control the difficulty of almost the entire game very easily with level caps.

Someone should start a poll and see who wants challenging content that has high replay value vs easy content that is no longer desired once you've completed it.

The point is, with the way they designed the game, SE has an opportunity to very easily keep most of the content challenging, enjoyable and worth doing at any level. This is what players have been asking for isn't it? I can't see why people would be opposed to level caps when you take this into consideration. The pros far outweigh the cons if you ask me.

I agree, as for the poll there is one asking if people are in favor of a cap or not, shouldn't be far in the 1st or 2nd page of the new posts. (most seems in favor so I don't see why the devs don't take the hint)

I agree that the game seems to be designed with caps in mind but that was under Tanaka and I am not sure Yoshi has the same design goal in mind. Of course the game needed some changes to be acceptable but if caps were originaly intended I hope he didn't just scrap them.