"If you die twice, you're out"

[Araeya]

*insert a whole lot of double standards*

First, many people have politely explained why they prefer these parties to clear content. You just don't accept the answers. Simply, (other than those who do use it as a way to insult people) people looking for other like-minded people who have similar experience and expectations.

You're basically saying that what does not benefit you (not being able to be in any party you wish), or people who think like you, doesn't benefit another entire group of people? You expect people to use their time (which you apparently have no regard for, by the way) in the same way you choose to use yours? Your entire post focused on why you think everyone should do what you think they should be doing with their time and their money, especially if it gets you what you want. You, in no way, recognized that there are multiple options for gameplay and that it is always the player's choice to play how and when they like. No one is forcing you to join these parties, just like no one is forcing those people into learning parties.

I see so much complaining about discrimination (bit of a bold word to be used in regard to something you feel is casual) against less experienced players in this thread, when the reality is that the majority of the people going into (or forming) these 'discriminatory' parties also spent the time learning the fights via joining (or forming) learning parties. They put in their time and effort, helping and learning, but are expected to gain no reward (such as ease of doing weekly clears from then on) for doing so because, in your estimation, it doesn't benefit the community (you)? The logic in that is so utterly flawed that it's shocking. Mind you, forming a group gives no one the right to be insulting due to mistakes, but to feel you have the right to tell another person what guidelines to use in forming their own groups in a game they spend their free time playing and their money paying for, following the game's policies, is arrogant beyond reason. Perhaps more arrogant than you accuse them of being.

I will continue to form learning parties for content I am not clearing with my static. Anyone can feel free to join them, with the guidelines being that patience and civility is required. I will also continue to form "2 fail = removal" parties when I am confident in my ability to clear said content, and anyone is welcome to join those, as well, with the guidelines that they will be politely replaced if their mistakes (or connection issues) are holding back the group as a whole. No one is forcing them to join either group, but they just might find that, in either case, the groups go much more smoothly because they are full of people who have the same expectations.

Why does this even need to be explained? It's common sense, and not something that merits complaint (and yes, it is complaint) on the forums. Really, it just comes off as being upset that a group may not have the same expectations you have, and as people who would rather complain about a thing than just form their own groups with guidelines they feel are appropriate.

[ispano]

The fact its happen is meaningless to me, I really don't bother interacting with people like that. What is upsetting is the fact the concerned persons try to justify this behavior in front of newer players with completely rubish reasons, leaving these new players the idea that no one is going to welcome them once they reach the end game stage. "We're not willing to carry you!"

With a mentality as such the community is only going to shrink, what is beneficial in that?

And yet some of the reasons are not rubbish. You call them that so you can discount their views.

[Subucnimorning]

Every time I have joined a group with this type of policy the leader of the group died more than anyone else. If they legit just want a run that will go smooth then I cannot blame them, that is what most people want. However, people that use it to get carried are funny.

[NoctisUmbra]

The fact its happen is meaningless to me, I really don't bother interacting with people like that. What is upsetting is the fact the concerned persons try to justify this behavior in front of newer players with completely rubish reasons, leaving these new players the idea that no one is going to welcome them once they reach the end game stage. "We're not willing to carry you!"

With a mentality as such the community is only going to shrink, what is beneficial in that?

The act itself requires no justification. It is entirely self-explanatory and transparent.

If I put up a PF request for Garuda EX saying clearly that it is for experienced players in order to farm efficiently, I am clearly not looking for people who haven't cleared or have trouble performing. As a way to measure this, a limit is placed on how many times each party member can screw up in the forms of deaths - the usual result of getting hit by mechanics that you shouldn't get caught by.

Problems occur when inexperienced players join parties such as this that clearly ask for qualified individuals, and then proceed to screw up and cause wipes. They die 2-3 times and get replaced, as they fully expected to when they joined. Likewise, some inexperienced people have taken to starting such restricted farm parties in an attempt to have themselves carried - something that becomes clear when the party leader dies more than the others.

Everybody was a new player at some point. It's not about not welcoming new players onto the endgame stage. There are many ways to learn content and become adequately proficient at it. The point is, joining a farming party isn't the way.

[AdvancedWind]

Oh, come on, why are we having this discussion again.

If someone else's requirements on party finder do not please you, don't join. If all parties have requirements that you don't like, create your own.

It's *that* simple. The party creation process is so amazingly streamlined in this game there's absolutely no reason not to create a party tailored for your specific needs if you cannot find one.

Also, experienced players are in no obligation whatsoever to party with people that are constantly failing. These players have already spent a lot of time. They have a 95%+ success ratio on performing their job perfectry. They only die when someone else screws up hard, or when they get legit lag. Why should they have to go over "learning" wipes all over again?

"Oh, but my community! You are so mean! X years ago everyone was so nice and we wiped for hours and hours and no one complained and blah blah blah"

A "good community" does not mean "everyone is willing play with lower skilled players at all times". Also, I'd like you to show me this supposed 'paradise MMO' where the majority of the players are / were willing to spend hours upon hours aiding random strangers weekly. I really don't recall that game. And no, FFXI is not that game.


I'll use me as an example: To get my first Titan EX win, I did the fight 5 hours+ over 3 days in a row. 15 hours of constant fighting with no wins. After that, I've done the fight a billion extra times to get weekly wins, for FC learning runs, LS learning runs, weekly wins that took 4+ hours due to bad parties, Duty Finder to learn tanking. I can safely say I have spent 30, 40+ hours on that fight ALONE. I've wasted a crapload of time on that fight already. I am more than capable of one shotting it with little effort. There are a lot of players out there equally or even more skilled than me. They are looking for parties as well.

Give me one good reason why I should stay on a party with (or allow into my party) someone that is still consistently dying almost every run. There's none other than being the mythical good guy, Saviour of the Community and Willing to Wait Until You Figure Out That The Brighty Brownish Stuff On The Ground Is Bad And You Should Move Away From It™. Sorry, I am *not* going to waste an unknown number of hours just to be a good samaritan. I already spent more than enough time doing it. I respect you, and I honestly wish you good luck, but you're gonna have to do this just like I did, man up and join other people who are also learning this fight, instead of a group clearly meant for experienced players. I'm just not at that point anymore and have no reason to lose (yes, LOSE) my time dying due to no fault of my own, and possible not of several other party members that are just as good as me.



By the way, the "X deaths" rule is so "popular" because it's pretty decent way of gauging players' skill level and knowledge of the fight. Mistakes happen, lag happen, but if you die several times, specially on a "trivial" part of the content (pre earthen fury Titan, Ifrit phase Ultima, wetc), you clearly are not experienced on that fight and should not be on an experienced group.

[DubstepNinja]

"If you die twice, you're out"

Yah same rules as dragonball Z

[Xeonerable]

party leaders recruiting through PF usually tend to be exempt from their own rules and their wants take precedence.

I stopped doing content outside of FC and friends, because out in the wilderness people are assholes. Lately though I only join PF to help people working on relics as a good deed for the day thing.

[NamiSwan]

Your post title is clear if statement, usually they use this kind of rules in ifrit and titan EX to save time.

if u think u have the optimal ilvl and u can maintain this rule"stay alive". Join to party,very simple Xd

[Malamasala]

It is all about reading between the lines.

What they are really saying is that they hate the game and don't want to play it, they only want items so they can quit or brag.

People who enjoy the game do not put such messages in their party comments. Because these value the challenge in beating game content with strangers, even if it takes deaths. The more deaths the harder it is, the harder it is the greater the accomplishment. Who cares if someone beats Twintania with 0 deaths? It is those who beat it with 50 deaths that are the good players who took on the challenge and prevailed.

[Teeko]

I won't join your groups and demand perfection if you don't join mine and demand I lower my standards.

Seems fair to me