My three stages to Paladin tanking

[Revya]

We may end up just having to agree to disagree here, but Flash generates more enmity than an uncomboed Savage Blade (495 v 300), and imparts that blind. Like I said, if low level tanks are losing aggro on trash pulls, it's because they flashed less than 3 times over the course of the pull. Flash twice, combo once, flash, combo, should be free to combo for the duration of the pull.

If you acknowledge it does more damage and enmity to use a combo, I honestly can't think of what else would be a factor. As long as your DD actually let you HIT the target before they unload, and your healer waits until you take some actual damage before healing you, you ramp up to a secure level of threat faster doing a normal combo.

I think we can agree on that yes. Though i do think Flash is weak but i don't think you should stop using it. When i'm tanking low level dungeons i don't need more then 1 Flash while rotating my attacks around on each of them. IF i however do not have the time to cast Shield Lob before i rush in i would need to flash 2 times. This is usually duo to a unexpected encounter or a ninja pull form some one.

And for the DD part... you cant trust them to do nothing really.. until they have proven it. My experience with Damage Dealers is mixed as i encounter really good once that know what they are supposed to do and the not so great people running all over the place pulling and trying to make it hard either on purpose or unknowingly.


Another part with Flash is the MP usage. Though we really do not use MP for any other things then Flash you will be needing to regain the MP with Riot Blade combo. And on that note i seem to have forgotten to even put in on my list on the first page..... I don't use it either as i don't use Flash more then 1-2 times for each pull.
This will also lead me to have more room for Savage Blade and Halone Combo, depending on what level range i'am doing.

If as you say and i have encountered them also the Tanks that do not know how to rotate between targets they would need to flash at least 3 times for each fight and then again after each combo as you described. This is also partly the reason i made this post, as its not needed to flash so many times and there are other ways to do the tank job.

[BonzaiFerroni]

This is excellent, probably the best I've seen! Cycling through targets while doing your combo is something I've fallen into the habit of doing as well. With 1-3 targets it generates more hate over time than spamming flash several times, as is the habit of many tanks.

Question, what do you do in situations where there are 6+ fairly challenging mobs and you need to maintain agro on all of them? I'm thinking specifically of the spiders in turn 4, last night was my first go, and pretty much like clockwork (no pun intended) the other tank and I lost hate on one target during the opening wave. Cycling through that many, you will lose hate on the spiders that are getting the most damage.

My initial belief is that it is a DPS issue, they should keep an eye out for taking over agro in that situation. Also, each time we were able to pull it back with a provoke + shield lob, but I wondered if there was a more elegant solution.

[BonzaiFerroni]

One minor disagreement with your rotation, I've found that it is inadvisable to start out with shield lob on multiple targets. While you may be gaining a bit of hate on your first target (and negligible damage), the others are virtually a free-for-all. If you have an antsy DPS in your party that starts in right away, or there is currently a regen buff on anyone, you will lose the attention of the other targets. Most of the time this is ok, you can pick them up with a flash on the way over. However, it makes timing the flash and hitting them all on the first flash quite a bit more challenging.

I've found it is pretty important to hit them all with the first flash if you can, that will make sure you have enough time to gather hate on all your targets. Aiming flash is one of the more interesting nuances of tanking.

[BonzaiFerroni]

As an alternative to shield lob, I'd suggest running into the enemy group and casting flash in a spot that you know will hit them all. Since there is a 1-2 second delay when you start fights this way, they will be perfectly still by the time you are in their midst. With a flash hit on each mob, the rest of the fight is a piece of cake.

Of course there are still occasions when I would use shield lob to start a fight, but they tend to be the minority.

Edit: Just noticed the part about leading with savage blade on your phase 2. This is an interesting approach but I ultimately agree with the other poster who pointed out that there is not a flat aggression bonus for savage blade, it scales with damage. I also read your response that leading with savage blade elicits more aggression up front, and certainly there could be situations where it is useful. However, I wouldn't recommend it as a general approach. Most tanks with updated gear won't lose mobs within the first few seconds of the fight, rather, they are more likely to lose the 3rd or 4th mob midway to the healer. Since leading with savage blade may even make this more likely, I wouldn't recommend it. Still, an interesting idea and it definitely brought up some interesting discussion!

[Revya]

Thank you for reading

This is excellent, probably the best I've seen! Cycling through targets while doing your combo is something I've fallen into the habit of doing as well. With 1-3 targets it generates more hate over time than spamming flash several times, as is the habit of many tanks.

Question, what do you do in situations where there are 6+ fairly challenging mobs and you need to maintain agro on all of them? I'm thinking specifically of the spiders in turn 4, last night was my first go, and pretty much like clockwork (no pun intended) the other tank and I lost hate on one target during the opening wave. Cycling through that many, you will lose hate on the spiders that are getting the most damage.

My initial belief is that it is a DPS issue, they should keep an eye out for taking over agro in that situation. Also, each time we were able to pull it back with a provoke + shield lob, but I wondered if there was a more elegant solution.

As for the Spiders in Coil 4.. i've not tanked that but healed it. But i have fought more then three mobs in a pull.. This usually happens after you have gained the Rage Of Halone skill. As it is a more unusual thing to happen.

How you go about it is actually up to the DD then you and that is how much aoe they use. But a good way i found is to repeat the first combo until you have 2-3 mobs left and continue normal Rotation.

Circle of Scorn - Flash - Fast blade - Savage blade - Second target Rage of Halone - Flash - Fast Blade Third - Savage blade Fourth - Rage of Halone First
Continue this until you have gotten RoH on every mob with full combo. While using Flash after each time so you dont lose the Enmity to any healer or the AoE nuking DD. Remember to use the Circle of Scorn when it gets of CD.

Its a combined problem with Healer and DD as they all gain Enmity on every mob.

[Revya]

One minor disagreement with your rotation, I've found that it is inadvisable to start out with shield lob on multiple targets. While you may be gaining a bit of hate on your first target (and negligible damage), the others are virtually a free-for-all. If you have an antsy DPS in your party that starts in right away, or there is currently a regen buff on anyone, you will lose the attention of the other targets. Most of the time this is ok, you can pick them up with a flash on the way over. However, it makes timing the flash and hitting them all on the first flash quite a bit more challenging.

I've found it is pretty important to hit them all with the first flash if you can, that will make sure you have enough time to gather hate on all your targets. Aiming flash is one of the more interesting nuances of tanking.

Yea this is a common problem i've encountered when healing and tanking. When i heal i don't reapply the Regen buff within the same fight. As it will make some trouble for the next fight.

Even though it's not much you do gain the initial strike on one of them and also you pull everyone. When they do split for your healer because of the Regen buff you just have to position your self right in the middle and use Flash while they pass you.
If done correctly they will turn at the healer and go after you again. You can see when you hit them right with the Red arrow signifying that they have changed targets.

Remember you can also remove the Regen buff or any buff you want by right clicking them.

You could also run in as you say but this only works if the mods are note aggresive. As they will turn for the healer when you get in range and the Regen buff gives a tick.

You are better off initiating from range and just waiting for them to go to you instead if you going to them.

[Revya]

As an alternative to shield lob, I'd suggest running into the enemy group and casting flash in a spot that you know will hit them all. Since there is a 1-2 second delay when you start fights this way, they will be perfectly still by the time you are in their midst. With a flash hit on each mob, the rest of the fight is a piece of cake.

Of course there are still occasions when I would use shield lob to start a fight, but they tend to be the minority.

Edit: Just noticed the part about leading with savage blade on your phase 2. This is an interesting approach but I ultimately agree with the other poster who pointed out that there is not a flat aggression bonus for savage blade, it scales with damage. I also read your response that leading with savage blade elicits more aggression up front, and certainly there could be situations where it is useful. However, I wouldn't recommend it as a general approach. Most tanks with updated gear won't lose mobs within the first few seconds of the fight, rather, they are more likely to lose the 3rd or 4th mob midway to the healer. Since leading with savage blade may even make this more likely, I wouldn't recommend it. Still, an interesting idea and it definitely brought up some interesting discussion!

As for Shield lob i think i gave my answer in the other post. But i forgot mention that i will rather fight at my place of choosing rather then at the place where they are. As i can avoid different Patrol units and i can pull a whole room outside for easy access to the ranged mobs.

Yes for the Savage Blade you and everyone is right as it does scale with your main weapons damage, as it should. But to think that every player will upgrade there weapons each time there is a new one available is flawed but not wrong. They should upgrade weapons and gear when they have the chance to and most do that. But there are others that neglect it because they don't find one, can't afford one, prefer different stats or just don't like how it looks.

I'm one of the latter and often choose how my weapon look over how it preforms while i was leveling up and found myself needing to change the way i tanked.
So i use the method with savage blade as it gave me the Enmity needed to hold them as my job is to hold them not kill them.

Though i would recommend everyone to upgrade its not always possible and thus the Savage Blade rotation i use will help a under geared, inexperienced and new Paladin tanks to arrive at lvl 50 with some more knowledge other then how to spam Flash.

[Mikedizzy]

This is all good information and gives me some more things to think about. Appreciate all the thoughts.

[Casper]

My three stages to paladin tanking:

1) Fast blade
2) Savage blade
3) Rage of halone

Sorry, dunno if someone already made the joke, but couldn't resist Also have not been in details but seems like a nice work, keep it up

[Maelwys]

What i want to point out however is that a Savage blade gives more enmity for initial first hit

IMO there are only ever three short-range openers and two long-range openers that should be used on mobs.

1) More than 3 mobs - FLASH spam. Flash to 50% MP, Then Riot blade combo and Flash. Use Circle of Scorn and FoF on cooldown.

2) 2-3 mobs - Flash ONCE or TWICE and then rotate your RoH combo. Fast blade -> Savage Blade one mob, RoH the next one; swap mobs and repeat.

3) 1 mob - RoH it. If the mob is an add and you know in advance that it is about to pop, (example, Coil T1's snake split) you can build up a combo'ed RoH (or a combo'ed Savage Blade --> RoH; less hate but quicker activating) to pull more hate. Then start your RoH Combo.

4) Ranged mob (near) - Shield lob it at least once. RoH it as soon as it is in melee range. Then start your RoH Combo.

5) Ranged mob (far away) - Provoke it. Shield lob it at least once when it gets into range. RoH it as soon as it is in melee range. Then start your RoH Combo.

Savage blade does not have additional enmity unless it's comboed. RoH and Shield lob and Flash all do. The idea with openers is to generate sufficient spike enmity quickly enough to hold aggro over your DPS and healers, which should hold them off until you can start properly generating consistent aggro (RoH combo or Flash spam). There is also a bit of a trick with Flash in that it can be used to grab immediate aggro on things that are in the process of spawning but that you can't yet target. An example is on Turn 4, you can flash once as the Phase 2 Soldier and Knight are dropping down from the ceiling to get immediate aggro on them.

If you ever need to get aggro off another player, use PROVOKE and Shield lob [ranged, rather unreliable] or PROVOKE and a comboed RoH (or comboed Savage Blade--> RoH) [melee, very reliable, used for tankswaps].

Aside from the combo rotations, I'd suggest that (i) PLDs go through another big boost at level 40 when they get access to Shield Oath and (ii) for cross-class abilities, Stoneskin and Foresight are obviously good, but I'd consider Mercy Stroke, Bloodbath and Protect to all be quite useful at higher levels. Raise cannot be used in combat, and out of combat you can just swap it out and in as needed.