Is anyone else bothered by the lack of incentive for mediocre players to improve?

[Siobahn]

I have to admit, it's really annoying to put together a group for the weekly EX primal quest and have "experienced" players join that can't deal with the most simple of mechanics. I've been in a Titan EX with an i90 DRG that got hit by every single WotL. I've done Garuda EX with i90 OT's that can't pull a twin when they spawn. And I've done Ifrit EX with i90 white mages that insist upon standing in the center with the dps when they have searing wind, and not understanding why the group is mad at them when we wipe.

I don't have a problem with people that use the Turn 2 enrage strat. I use it myself. If you can clear coil, regardless of how you do it, then you deserve the gear. Period. The problem comes when myth gear is on par with allagan, but is basically handed out for free. This, mixed with FC's selling EX primal runs, creates a population of players who can't clear content legitimately, that claims it can by lying about it's achievements and showing off the gear they "bought."

Since SE implemented the average ilevel system, that's what players use as a gauge for player skill. This doesn't work, however, because of what I mentioned above. If SE is going to continue to hand out top-tier gear for free, then there needs to be a different system in place for filtering out skilled players from un-skilled players when using the party finder. There is absolutely no reason to die 30 times on Titan every week because full i90 players do less than 100 dps while being unable to dodge WotL.

[Zarzak]

Just an FYI, WoW is the game that started the whole dumbing down raids and handing gear and making it easily accessible for casual players. As soon as a new patch comes out, they always gave everyone a way of getting the previous level gear.

I think he was specifically referring to their umm... "gamer level tiers" within a single content release.
That's how I took it anyway. As in they have Heroic dungeons for those casuals who want to pretend they aren't casual. And they leave raids for just raiders (prior to that duty finder raid system I heard about).

I agree with everything you said though. MMO developers no longer care about "how much money will this game make us in its life" they just care about "in the 1st 2 months how much money can we suck out of people before it tanks. Personally I'd rather make a game that nets me (as in if I was the sole person) 10k a month for the rest of my life and lets me never work again than one that gets me 200k in 1 month then dies so I have to work 3 years to make another one.

EQ and FFXI still turn a profit. That should say something. WoW makes its money off the casuals (and honestly they have excellent marketing. These days I would guess WoW is the gateway MMO of just about every "new" MMO player) But if you get on WoW and ask around just about every raid team loses over half their raid force over the course of a year. EQ you can log on and ask guilds and they still have like 35 people who have been in the guild for 10 years (personal experience) I imagine XI is the same way.

The next MMO developer who makes a MMO to truly replace EQ/XI will get basically every player from both those MMOs + a good chunk of retired people who no longer play MMOs because there aren't any good ones out. 14 is great but only in comparison to the other "modern" MMOs. If EQ releases a good expansion (last 2 sucked) I'd go back in a heart beat.

[illuminapanic]

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I'm sorry, I don't blame gear when they have minimal requirements for dungeons. I don't blame gear when dungeons are easily completed with full DL gear. I blame tanks who continuously eat double wheels from garuda without cd's. I blame dps who tunnel too much and fail to realize that wheel is coming as well. I blame tanks who fail to use cd's appropriately during incinerates from ifrit or healers who get players seared at middle before ifrit hellfires. When there are mechanics that can possibly one shot an i90 player, I don't blame the gear, I blame the players who thought that higher ilvl would make them gods. Being more geared lets you make up for the slack of other players. If you need gears to make up for slackers then, imo, that is carrying. So to me, gear doesn't raise your chances of success, it just raises your chances of not dying.


I also didn't start this thread, I was more of replying to all the people who just tell the OP to fuck off and mind his own business or to solely play with only people he knows. You can't help a community who refuses to listen to others whom state what the problems are, which have been brought up by multiple posts and multiple thoughts. It would be redundant to suggest solutions that are already mentioned.

[Hiroradius]

If you remember in Beta, there were 2 topics of chat conversation.

1) Wow, I can't believe this game is so much easier then Final Fantasy 11.

2) This is a WoW clone.

Those were the conversations everyday.

Look at almost any mmo, the popular topic.. "This game reminds me of WoW.."

World of Warcraft redefined MMO's, just like Ultima, and Everquest, and Final Fantasy 11, but none were as profitable as WoW because WoW also went after the casual players and made them feel just as important as the hardcore raiders. Now games are either WoW clones with an added twist to try and seperate themselves from WoW, or just flat out fails.


What developers need to realize is this... It's great to have initial high figures, but usually the casual players who request the housing, and vanity and the haircuts and cry because dungeons are too hard or they can't beat the end game raid, are also the players who don't stick around very long. The hardcore raiders are the one's who usually keep playing the game. When a casual hits a point that is too hard, they quit the game, and come back in the next patch because what they hit that was too hard, they expect to be nerf'd.

Failures of FF14 that will make this game become an Aion, LOTRO, Rift, or similiar very soon.

1) Leveling was too easy and too fast. (Even now that's a huge complaint in WoW, you level your alts too fast)
2) Not enough end game content.
3) Nothing to strive for in game (everything is handed to you, and when something isn't handed people cry on the forums and then they hand it to you)
4) No reason for alts (why create an alt when one character can do everything)
5) Crafting system (since everyone can do everything, it takes away from the supply and demand aspect of the economy, if someone sees high potions are selling for 1k each, eveyrone switches to their alchemist and floods the market bringing them down to 5 gil each)
6) Fates... (Fates are suppose to be something you do to keep you interested in the game, not a focus point. Look at Rift, their fates are something that is a focus but not something you can do just that and nothing else.)

Final Fantasy 14 will most likely follow Aion, Rift, etc and become free to play, cash shop but since we know the japanense do not like this concept, it may not and instead just close down.

[Samsta]

gear doesn't raise your chances of success, it just raises your chances of not dying.

What ? : D you fail by dying, so if the chance of not dying is increased, your change of failing will be lowered and change of success will raise. That statement of yours doesn't really make sense.

[Royze]

A prime example.

I just attempted to kill Ultima on my tank.
An i88 tank said 'first time here, what do i have to do,' to which I responded 'Just taunt off me at 3 stacks and move out of things. Don't touch the glowing balls when they spawn,' and he said 'xD ok'
I start tanking, I get to 3 stacks, I said 'Okay take it.' He just keeps comboing, no attempt at taunting. Four stacks, I start spamming 'Taunt him' with sound effects. Nope. Five stacks, I Hallowed Ground and continue spamming. Nope. I die and then he moves into place, eats every ability, and dies.

This player should not have been able to obtain that much i90 gear, but it could, because you can get a full set just by logging in every week.

Maybe you should have used game terminology that is actually in the game, and not a remnant of wow - the word is Provoke!

[illuminapanic]

What ? : D you fail by dying, so if the chance of not dying is increased, your change of failing will be lowered and change of success will raise. That statement of yours doesn't really make sense.

I was going to put that in my argument but didn't feel I needed to. Just because you don't die doesn't mean you will necessarily win. There are lots of fights with dps checks and if you fail at those, you hit the enrage and will wipe. The only fight where you can survive the enrage, afaik, is turn 2 enrage. There are also fights with one shot mechanics regardless of gear and can take you out of the fight. Titan Ex is the most unforgiving. EX Garuda + Suparnas wicked wheel will pretty much 1 shot any tank without a cd and will definitly 1 shot anybody else that gets hit. Ifrit Ex, eruptions will kill you if you get hit by 2 of them at once, and plumes will kill you if you get hit by more than 1. These are stacked attacks that occur frequently.

For personal experience, I've been in a Titan EX where everybody dodged landslides and plumes (maybe got clipped by 1 or 2 without dying) but never got past heart phase. This was due to the lack of dps. We'd go through 2-3 rotations before switching phases. I've had Garuda Ex groups where they never killed the 2nd sister in time. An Ifrit Ex fight where we hit the enrage 5 times in a row. These were df groups with people of i80+. Actually, I've rarely been in a df or pf where people were below i80. Majority are primal/relic/myth/allagan geared.

I hate to bring up the same fights but these are the only content really that people are attempting on the regular.

[Zarzak]

Maybe you should have used game terminology that is actually in the game, and not a remnant of wow - the word is Provoke!

if your going to try and sound smart.. At least do it right and don't pretend WoW invented MMOs.

Taunt has been around LONG LONG LONG before the abomination that is WoW ever saw the internet

[Ishmachiah]

Taunt has been around LONG LONG LONG before the abomination that is WoW ever saw the internet

Haterz gonna hate.

[Lyrro]

Haterz gonna hate.

Love the irony of that statement, given your signature. Both heretic and unclean are words often used by self righteous religious figures to discriminate against people who are of other religions or non religious, and the word mutant is often used negatively even though mutations are often natural and progressive for evolution. I dunno, maybe I just needed a good laugh today given the night I had last night, but this struck me as hilarious.

People will quote WoW, you might as well accept it. WoW is considered one of the Shakespeares of MMOs (holy crap, someone who knows who Shakespeare is), and for better or worse, people will be quoting it for years to come. Debating over lingo will not prove your point nor disprove your opposite, and as long as both people know what the definition of "provoke" and "taunt" are you're not going to misunderstand each other. That's like two people fighting because their accents are different, they can still clearly understand each other because they're able argue which leads to the suggestion that they're arguing for the sake of argument. Misquoting, now that's something else entirely.

You're point is valid, Illuminapanic, but what you seem to fail to understand is that a higher ilvl allows parties to make mistakes that they could not afford at lower levels. Where I once had issues healing people because of them being one-shot, I now have the chance to heal that person because they will often survive with a sliver of health. This allows us to make it further into the fight which, in return, allows us to get more practice for those parts that we couldn't otherwise reach successively enough to practice. Take titan hm for example, back when it was still fresh. People were constantly getting killed by plumes and it was exceedingly rare (still is rather rare) to make it past the heart phase because it was very common to have at least one dps die in the heart phase. Once my fc started running titan, with people who were all adequately geared, we were able to practice post heart combat and we can now four man phase 5. Ilvl has nothing to do with skill, I agree full heartedly, but it does help counter lack of skill by giving a small cusion which can often save a party from a wipe.