I really don't want to moan about undercutting but....

[LineageRazor]

There's always going to be a reason for undercutting. In most cases, folks want the time they spent crafting to translate into profit, and the more the better. So, generally, if it seems like there's a lot of folks selling for at or under the cost of manufacture, it means that either demand for the product has gone down (in which case folks are undercutting to unload stock - selling no profit or slight loss is better than not selling at all), or cost of manufacture has gone down (perhaps a new source has popped up for the materials). If this happens, you pretty much just have to accept the loss and lower your prices to match.

If there's NOT a lot of folks undercutting, just one guy, then it's not really anything to worry about. They may be trolling the market for giggles, or they came across more goods than they can handle and want to unload quickly, or they're altruists, or heck, maybe they felt they got screwed by crafters and are getting elaborite revenge by leveling a craft solely to flood the AH with cheap goods. Regardless, these folks are only temporary problems, and will go away eventually.

[Senfei]

I fail to see how undercutting someone by 1 gil is "cheating". You obviously don't care about whether or not they make gil, so why should they care about "playing fair"? If it's common knowledge that the first item will be selected on a list sorted by price, even if it is 1 gil cheaper, then you would be a fool not to take advantage of it. Not to do so would be about the same as DPSing on a MNK without using any of your skills, and being upset that the DRG is outdpsing because he is "cheating" by using all the tools at his disposal, IE skills, when you chose not to.

[Lenarr]

I fail to see how undercutting someone by 1 gil is "cheating". You obviously don't care about whether or not they make gil, so why should they care about "playing fair"? If it's common knowledge that the first item will be selected on a list sorted by price, even if it is 1 gil cheaper, then you would be a fool not to take advantage of it. Not to do so would be about the same as DPSing on a MNK without using any of your skills, and being upset that the DRG is outdpsing because he is "cheating" by using all the tools at his disposal, IE skills, when you chose not to.

Actually, if the lowest price of an item is 9999, and there's a couple at 10,000....I'll always buy one of the 10,000 ones...

[Katchii]

Actually, if the lowest price of an item is 9999, and there's a couple at 10,000....I'll always buy one of the 10,000 ones...

I don't understand why you would choose to spend more money than necessary. If it's about principal, I'm pretty sure no one is getting the point and just cares about their gil.

[Sparky]

Undercutting is expected in a free market. Perhaps these other sellers gathered the mats themselves so they can theoretically go as low as you care to imagine. If you can't compete with that, then you have to ask yourself why you can't compete.

If the reason why is because you buy your materials, then consider farming them yourself. That's the only way to maximize the value of each and every crafted item. Even if it takes 2 days to farm all the materials, that is still pure profit. I know I'd much rather make 50k pure profit buy gathering, than perhaps making only 1 or 2 k because I bought all the mats.

If you don't have you DoL classes up to 50, consider doing it to make your DoH more competitive. I got all my DoL classes up to 50 in a week - they really arent that troublesome to level, and its only really necessary to use leves between 45-50, where the exp curve becomes too great.

[Artemiz]

Undercutting is expected in a free market. Perhaps these other sellers gathered the mats themselves so they can theoretically go as low as you care to imagine. If you can't compete with that, then you have to ask yourself why you can't compete.

If the reason why is because you buy your materials, then consider farming them yourself. That's the only way to maximize the value of each and every crafted item. Even if it takes 2 days to farm all the materials, that is still pure profit. I know I'd much rather make 50k pure profit buy gathering, than perhaps making only 1 or 2 k because I bought all the mats.

If you don't have you DoL classes up to 50, consider doing it to make your DoH more competitive. I got all my DoL classes up to 50 in a week - they really arent that troublesome to level, and its only really necessary to use leves between 45-50, where the exp curve becomes too great.

I understand what you're saying but if I had to farm the mats just to be competitive on the market then I'd just farm and sell the mats, it's easier. If for example the mats cost 10k, and the crafted item sells for 8k, why even bother with the crafting? it's just costing you money. The mats used in crafing all have their own value, it's not just about the finished item and just because you farmed them yourself doesn't reduce that value to 0. Of course farming the items will increase your profit from each individual sale but that profit is being generated purely by the gathering process, not by crafting. Why would you spend the time it takes to being able to HQ 2 star items from NQ mats (because if you need HQ mats and still sell for less than the NQ mats cost you must be crazy) only to make nothing from it? To get into this position I've had to get 4 level 50 crafts and several others at 15 as well as CUL to 37, then I've had to overmeld all my gear throwing large amounst of gil at it in the process, all so that if I make a Vanya robe my gathering earns me 49k while my Weaver earns me 1k, if I'm lucky. If I'm unlucky all of my profit comes from gathering/farming.

Gathering can also be a complete waste of time by the way, I put a value on my time so say for example in this game I say I can farm 20k an hour from my favourite farming spot. If it takes me an hour to gather lets say, flax and it's worth 4k a stack, why on earth would I waste my time actually gathering it? I'm better off farming my usual spot for an hour, buying a stack and pocketing the extra 16k.

This same argument keeps getting thrown about that if you farm you mats your crafting has a bigget profit margin, it's a complete fallacy but people can't seem to see it, it's like the Monte Carlo fallacy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy

It appeals to people because it seems to make sense, in reality it doesn't, it's a fallacy.

[LineageRazor]

[QUOTE=Artemiz;1862041]This same argument keeps getting thrown about that if you farm you mats your crafting has a bigget profit margin, it's a complete fallacy but people can't seem to see it, it's like the Monte Carlo fallacy
[QUOTE]

I'd say it's closer in form to the Hard Work fallacy, the idea that there's more value in something the more work you put into accomplishing it.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...ardWorkFallacy

In this case, it's also important to realize that transportation costs can be a big factor. Suppose I want to make Deviled Eggs, and want to farm my own mats. I teleport to Drybone to gather some mustard, then to Bloodshore to kill Apkallu for an egg and fish up a sardine, then teleport to Lower La Noscea to gather a lemon and parsley, and finally head to the Bismarck to buy Paprika (or if I absolutely must, teleport to Western La Noscea and harvest it instead). All those teleports cost 200-500 gil.

On the flip side of the coin, it's often difficult to buy JUST ONE of anything. Suppose, again, you want to make just one serving of Deviled Eggs. Good luck buying one egg, one lemon, etc - even when available, singles tend to sell for much more than multiples. If you DO buy multiples, you then have the added onus of selling the leftover mats back to the auction house or having them sit in your inventory indefinitely - both of these are a problem for me, as I constantly keep my retainers' auctions at 20/20, and my inventory is full to bursting.

It's a complex problem, and needs to be dealt with case-by-case. Sometimes, it's worthwhile to farm, sometimes it's worthwhile to buy.

[Sparky]

Transportation costs are only an issue if you let it become an issue. I discovered when I was leveling my DoL after a 3 month hiatus with literally no gil, that it only takes 5 mins to ride from ul'dah to the shroud, and about the same to la noscea. It does take a small fee to get to la noscea - the 80 gil ferry from vesper bay, but if you can't cover 80 gil then theres something really wrong.

[zaviermhigo]

People undercut because they are economically stupid, impatient ,and immature. Really that's it.

They buyer's are also stupid. You shouldn't always look at the lowest, the lowest might actually be higher than one of the others depending on the city you're in and they're selling out of. And item selling for 9999 in LL, maybe actually be more expensive with tax if you're buying it in Uldah.

[Sparky]

I disagree that people undercut because they are economically stupid. In fact, I think quite the opposite. It's exploiting the people who want goods immediately and cheaply. It's far from stupid on the sellers' parts.