What went wrong? Is it the game or the grenre?

[Zfz]

I also don't like this quest grind. Most quests are just chores anyway.

I prefer the design where you grind on mobs to level up, and quests are hard and few with real story, that reward significant stuff, which you aim for. The whole focus on end-game is being overdone now in ARR, I think, allowing people to level cap in only few days. The RPG part of the MMORPG got lost in the process. I think the game should strive to provide a journey first, a journey people can enjoy, not a taxi ride where people find the shortest route most efficient way to do everything and skip anything that isn't efficient.

Build a journey people enjoy, and when people get to the end of the jouney, then add the "end-game" content. This way, those who arrive at the end-game pleasantly find more to do at end-game. But the way it is now, people want nothing of the journey, if possible they want to start at the end-game already; and they are not to blame, because that thinking is encouraged by the current game design.

"I wanna quickly level to 50 so I can get started with..." is the problem with this game.

Also, the speed at which people can level decides the speed at which people expect to attain their goals, I think. If it took a good 3 months just to get to level cap, one can be sure people won't be expecting to get their relic in one night. They'd expect the relic quest to be so epic it takes weeks to finish.

Which brings out those who sneer, "I have a life I don't want to waste 40 hours a week on a game". But that is only a problem if that time is really wasted. Does it matter if you're level 50 tackling Binding Coils of Bahamut, or your level 17~20 tackling Halatali that has the same difficulty as Turn 1? So what if it takes 2 months to level up to 50? It is only a problem (a "waste of time") if the game itself is designed to "start at 50".

Imagine those who don't want difficult content can just ignore dungeons and slowly grind their way to 50. Those who love the so-called end-game content, can experience that "end-game experience" all throughout their leveling time. With level sync, they also get to re-experience all these dungeons the way it was, with new friends, or a friend's alt class. Imagine having 12 "end-game dungeons" already at launch, because every dungeon in the game is of "end-game" quality.

The current design makes it very easy for a new player to catch up. Which is exactly the problem. The game itself is treating its own content like throw-away trash.

[Marzapan]

I'm more a fan of sandbox games. This game is themepark.
I'm not much for leveling alts. Once I see a dungeon/zone, I'm pretty much done w/ it. To me, doing content over w/ a new class is not new content. Recycling dungeons/bosses also, imho, is not new content to me. Although I understand how some people view it as such.
Usually I like to craft, but there seems little use for it in this game. I love housing... we know how that has gone so far.
The world is very closed, corridored, or however you wish to put it.
Coil lockout is frustrating and unsatisfying.
Loot tier system doesn't make sense to me. Why do we get tokens for i90 gear in i50 dungeons?
Leveling is WAY too fast.
It's not hard to see why people have gotten tired of FF XIV already.

[Magis]

I also don't like this quest grind. Most quests are just chores anyway.

I prefer the design where you grind on mobs to level up, and quests are hard and few with real story, that reward significant stuff, which you aim for. The whole focus on end-game is being overdone now in ARR, I think, allowing people to level cap in only few days. The RPG part of the MMORPG got lost in the process. I think the game should strive to provide a journey first, a journey people can enjoy, not a taxi ride where people find the shortest route most efficient way to do everything and skip anything that isn't efficient.

Build a journey people enjoy, and when people get to the end of the jouney, then add the "end-game" content. This way, those who arrive at the end-game pleasantly find more to do at end-game. But the way it is now, people want nothing of the journey, if possible they want to start at the end-game already; and they are not to blame, because that thinking is encouraged by the current game design.

"I wanna quickly level to 50 so I can get started with..." is the problem with this game.

Also, the speed at which people can level decides the speed at which people expect to attain their goals, I think. If it took a good 3 months just to get to level cap, one can be sure people won't be expecting to get their relic in one night. They'd expect the relic quest to be so epic it takes weeks to finish.

Which brings out those who sneer, "I have a life I don't want to waste 40 hours a week on a game". But that is only a problem if that time is really wasted. Does it matter if you're level 50 tackling Binding Coils of Bahamut, or your level 17~20 tackling Halatali that has the same difficulty as Turn 1? So what if it takes 2 months to level up to 50? It is only a problem (a "waste of time") if the game itself is designed to "start at 50".

Imagine those who don't want difficult content can just ignore dungeons and slowly grind their way to 50. Those who love the so-called end-game content, can experience that "end-game experience" all throughout their leveling time. With level sync, they also get to re-experience all these dungeons the way it was, with new friends, or a friend's alt class. Imagine having 12 "end-game dungeons" already at launch, because every dungeon in the game is of "end-game" quality.

The current design makes it very easy for a new player to catch up. Which is exactly the problem. The game itself is treating its own content like throw-away trash.

This is the best post I have seen to why the level grind is important! I'd say it's the game, not the genre. The game has chosen the mainstream route, which has been shown to not retain people, but does give a quick boost in population at launch.

I won't say it's the genre, otherwise games like EVE online wouldn't be as popular as it is.

[zdub303]

I won't say it's the genre, otherwise games like EVE online wouldn't be as popular as it is.

I think we need to change our perception of 'popular' as well. Both as a playerbase and as an industry. EVE, after 10 years, is JUST now breaking 500k players. FFXIV after its first month had 600k players. (with active subs that is) - yet which one would you say is the more popular game? (I would say EVE is much more well known imo)

The biggest problem in the industry today is that these games are so expensive to make that unless they have 1 mil+ subs the game is considered a flop. So they cater it to the widest audience possible by watering down their game.

There is still a crowd of players who reminisce of the old FFXI/EQ1 days where MMOs were about the multiplayer aspect of the game. Its a niche crowd though, and a developer is gonna have to be happy with 100-200k subs for years until a game like that can get real traction, something most investors I suspect will not want to back. I do think a game like that has more staying power than these quick fix wow model games that have almost always flopped after 1-2 years.

I'm with you, even with my limited play schedule I would take a revamped EQ1 PoP era style game over anything i've seen in the last 4 years any day. I think someone will eventually make a game like that, and it will be like EVE, starts small and grows each year. It's a game I would sub for long term for sure.

[Magis]

I think we need to change our perception of 'popular' as well. Both as a playerbase and as an industry. EVE, after 10 years, is JUST now breaking 500k players. FFXIV after its first month had 600k players. (with active subs that is) - yet which one would you say is the more popular game? (I would say EVE is much more well known imo)

The biggest problem in the industry today is that these games are so expensive to make that unless they have 1 mil+ subs the game is considered a flop. So they cater it to the widest audience possible by watering down their game.

There is still a crowd of players who reminisce of the old FFXI/EQ1 days where MMOs were about the multiplayer aspect of the game. Its a niche crowd though, and a developer is gonna have to be happy with 100-200k subs for years until a game like that can get real traction, something most investors I suspect will not want to back. I do think a game like that has more staying power than these quick fix wow model games that have almost always flopped after 1-2 years.

I'm with you, even with my limited play schedule I would take a revamped EQ1 PoP era style game over anything i've seen in the last 4 years any day. I think someone will eventually make a game like that, and it will be like EVE, starts small and grows each year. It's a game I would sub for long term for sure.

When I said popular, I meant it had a large playerbase that plays the game, and it keeps on growing. Too many people on this forum say "omg that style of game play is outdated an dead" when EVE clearly shows it isn't, and has way more gains in the long run.

The 1 million+ population count is a pipe dream and rarely happens... usually falling back down. The numbers WoW sees will never happen again unless an MMO brought something mindblowingly engaging. With the way the whole game industry is... I don't see that happening. Just look at how many MMOs breached 1 mil+:

http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-1.png

Probably Lineage, WoW, and Runescape (damn, I didn't know it was that popular) are the few that haven't died or gone F2P.

It's too much of the short term, not enough on the long term. Like another poster said, the whole focus is on the "end-game". End game should be something that is worried about a year down the line. Heck except for Onyxia, WoW's first patches were adding instances like Mauradon and Diremaul, lvl 40s and 50s dungeons as well as open world mechanics like the honor system.

I myself work 9-5 and on off times I am out with friends or working on projects and I too would love an in depth MMO. The no-lifer stereotype is BS. I raided in WoW during vanilla, and our guild was full of 30+ year olds (I think our guild leader and main priest were in their 40's) who had families and jobs, and found time to do raids and complete content. Sure we weren't doing world firsts, but it wasn't impossible.

Snip

I have hopes for the ambitious goals EQNext has. Hopefully it will give the industry a firm kick in the butt to start bringing back the original point of MMORPGs: a virtual world where you take the role of your avatar, filled with other players to bring it alive.

[Jonjon]

The problem is this game.
People like to point to unleveled classes/jobs as an indication of content. Those classes can only maybe qualify as content if the player has an interest in it. Since cross class skills are overly restricted, there is little interest beyond the "must haves". Most games have multiple classes yet most people only level a handful of those as alts anyway. EQ2 had 24, 25 now, and most had about 4 alts.

Opinions will differ but, there are really no worth while goals in this game. I spent hours in EQ2 farming that drop I wanted. That piece of gear that would make me more effective or even that piece of loot that I found amusing or wanted to try out. This game has homogenized all the gear, there is no individuality which honestly even 1.0 had.

There is no reason to go out into the world unless you are leveling. The DF takes care of all your needs. The world is nice looking sure, but very little incentive to actually see it. To this day I still like to log into EQ2 simply to go say hi to Nagafen. That is lasting impressionable content. Whats the name of that NPC behind the desk in the waking sands? I can't remember and I read every line of dialogue in the main story. Even the npcs are forgettable.

Every alt I rolled I went and did the prismatic weapon line even though the reward was a level 50 weapon that was beyond archaic. Why? Because it was interesting. The Prismatic Baton of the Scale was a technicolor lightsaber. I had an illusion that made me a Gnoll. For giggles I made my last name Darth Gnoll of the Scale. I am not a particular fan of Star Wars, but I found it amusing.

Nothing in this game makes me want to play it which is why I regret completely subbing for 6 months at launch.

Lastly the terrible CS, censor and ban happy mods, rampant botting and contradictory nature of the game do nothing to instil faith in this game.

[OmegaFlare]

This is the best post I have seen to why the level grind is important! I'd say it's the game, not the genre. The game has chosen the mainstream route, which has been shown to not retain people, but does give a quick boost in population at launch.

I won't say it's the genre, otherwise games like EVE online wouldn't be as popular as it is.

I completely agree with this. I saw a lot of new players coming in but old players were leaving just as rapidly. What used to be such a promising game at launch because everyone started at lvl 0 with so much to do has turned into a stale game with everyone at lvl 50 with little to do. I stopped my sub 3 weeks ago because it took me only 2 weeks to burn through most of the contents from patch 2.1.

In its current form, the main target audience for this game are those who only play a few hours a day who are considered "casual" players. I doubt there are that many "casual" players who are willing to stick around paying the sub monthly but we'll see. FFXI survived for 10+ years with around just 50K subs so ARR should be ok. I might come back for 2.2 depending on my interest level.

[chococo]

Also, the speed at which people can level decides the speed at which people expect to attain their goals, I think. If it took a good 3 months just to get to level cap, one can be sure people won't be expecting to get their relic in one night. They'd expect the relic quest to be so epic it takes weeks to finish.

I think this is so true. The leveling pace does set the pace for acquiring/achieving other goals in the game.

I think one of the reasons they wanted to speed up the leveling process is so as to encourage leveling multiple classes. But as it stands, many are not interested in doing so, cos it's just the same end-game chores even if you bring up other jobs to level cap. Ironically, FFXI takes ages to level, yet people do look forward to leveling other classes. Maybe because you get out much more from the journey.

[Kiara]

I prefer the design where you grind on mobs to level up, and quests are hard and few with real story, that reward significant stuff, which you aim for. The whole focus on end-game is being overdone now in ARR, I think, allowing people to level cap in only few days. The RPG part of the MMORPG got lost in the process. I think the game should strive to provide a journey first, a journey people can enjoy, not a taxi ride where people find the shortest route most efficient way to do everything and skip anything that isn't efficient.

Build a journey people enjoy, and when people get to the end of the jouney, then add the "end-game" content. This way, those who arrive at the end-game pleasantly find more to do at end-game. But the way it is now, people want nothing of the journey, if possible they want to start at the end-game already; and they are not to blame, because that thinking is encouraged by the current game design.

"I wanna quickly level to 50 so I can get started with..." is the problem with this game.

Also, the speed at which people can level decides the speed at which people expect to attain their goals, I think. If it took a good 3 months just to get to level cap, one can be sure people won't be expecting to get their relic in one night. They'd expect the relic quest to be so epic it takes weeks to finish.

Which brings out those who sneer, "I have a life I don't want to waste 40 hours a week on a game". But that is only a problem if that time is really wasted. Does it matter if you're level 50 tackling Binding Coils of Bahamut, or your level 17~20 tackling Halatali that has the same difficulty as Turn 1? So what if it takes 2 months to level up to 50? It is only a problem (a "waste of time") if the game itself is designed to "start at 50".

Imagine those who don't want difficult content can just ignore dungeons and slowly grind their way to 50. Those who love the so-called end-game content, can experience that "end-game experience" all throughout their leveling time. With level sync, they also get to re-experience all these dungeons the way it was, with new friends, or a friend's alt class. Imagine having 12 "end-game dungeons" already at launch, because every dungeon in the game is of "end-game" quality.

The current design makes it very easy for a new player to catch up. Which is exactly the problem. The game itself is treating its own content like throw-away trash.

Fantastic post, Zfz. I couldn't agree more.

FF XIV 2.0 was beautifully remade from scratch. It has a gorgeous world, cool looking landmarks and areas to explore... except Yoshi P and team have decided that basically 90% of the world is "trash" and just window dressing. They're pushing players to rush through Levels 1 - 49, to get to 50 as soon as possible.

As you said, if they made the journey more interesting and not as rushed, but they gave us dungeons that *mattered* and were fun during the intermediate levels, it would only make the whole experience that much more meaningful. Imagine if Pharos Sirius was a Level 25 Dungeon? Or Aurum Vale was Level 30? etc. And that World Mobs actually were worth something?

With a slower leveling curve, *but* more interesting content (truly challenging, engaging content), and allowing Crafted / Materia Gear to be meaningful as well, there would be a lot of tinkering, adventuring, experimenting going on, and Yoshi P and his team wouldn't be in the situation they are now, where they rushed everyone to Level 50 and now have to rush out content to satisfy everyone who's stuck at the max level spectrum of the game. Now, he's talking about raising the level cap and item levels (again) and saying Leviathan Weapons will be very powerful. It's becoming a WoW Gear Grind, where you try to get the latest and greatest every few months.

[synaesthetic]

The current design makes it very easy for a new player to catch up. Which is exactly the problem. The game itself is treating its own content like throw-away trash.

And they want new players.

New players mean more money.

Square-Enix is a business. Now, what do businesses exist for?

That's right! Making money.

Seriously, are you naturally this dense or did you practice first?

I think the fact that we have like 5 of these threads on the front page at any given time

Just goes to show you how many people on the internet derive their pleasure from seeing other people in misery. Is pissing on lowbies and your e-peen really so important that you're that utterly terrified that those "filthy casuals" will actually be able to see the story bits of The Binding Coil of Bahamut up to Turn 5 after patch 2.2?