Healers: Your heals are NOT more effective on WARs than they are on PLDs.

[PlayFair]

If you are taking 1k damage or more then its something like a mountain buster. In this case WAR is a better tank because of Storms Path and Inner Beast which will reduce the MB by 30% where a PLD will only reduce it by 20%.

Also, WAR will get topped up much faster because not only did the MB hit for less, WAR have 20% increased healing. In the games current state i think PLD are better for AoE tanking and WAR for single target tanking.

[Abigs]

lol innerbeast only lasts 6 seconds.. you can make it last a full 12 seconds with infuriate but w/o infuriate it takes 7-8 gcds to ramp it up

PLD has an improved convalescence, superior rampart over foresight (oh they can cross that too).. sentinel and halloweed OPness

and pallies can also stoneskin themselves during transition phases

wars can cross mantra and feather foot.. vengeance and thrill of battle are really good as well (tho vengeance only offers 30% damage redox @15secs while sentinel gives 40% at @10secs) .. but i dont think its enough to cover the gap between the two

for a warrior to get the same or a little above in mitigation and eHP he has to plan his CD's properly.. coordinate properly with healer ie. holmgang + benediction.. thrill of battle + lustrate


but any average paladin can still be as effective as a good warrior

and a good paladin cannot be matched under any circumstances matched by a good warrior (mitigation wise)

warriors are superior in aggro generation thats for sure (especially in AOE situations)

[YuriRamona]

While the math is correct, I'm not certain if it really has any impact on gameplay or strategy. The tank is almost always overhealed in between big damage. If they're not topped off before potential one-shots with an extra Adloquium, then something else is wrong.

Rage of Halone, Stoneskin, and Rampart are roughly equivalent to Storm's Eye and Inner Beast (in terms of damage mitigation).

PLD's shield, Sentinel, and Hallowed Ground are either restricted by luck (shield block) or time (cooldowns) even though they are superior to Vengeance and Holmgang.

Parties seem to think that PLD is the "safe and reliable" tank, and WAR is the "min/max risky" tank, when it's really the other way around. Rampart's cooldown is laughable compared to Inner Beast, which can be up 4-5 times per minute (up to 50% of the time) compared to Rampart, which is only active 2/9 of the time at best.

[PiedPiper]

The OP is correct. Adlo and stone skin are not more effective on warrior, adlo is actually more effective on pld. And... here is a massive explanation of why:

I shall endeavor to explain this in such a matter that even people who have never picked up an axe or gladius will readily understand these concepts. Should you not want to read the mathy explanation bits, just read the bold for the tl;dr updates through out the post. The ultimate point is to conclusively show that healing a paladin is 5% less time and mana consuming than healing a warrior with respects to their tanking stances. (I will discuss cool downs later, but once you understand EHP it become pretty clear that the existing cool downs will not really change this much).

Section 1: Terms and Basic Concepts

In tanking, there are three important terms: Effective HP (EHP), Effective Healing Received (EHR), and Fundamental Enemy Damage (FED). This discussion will lay out the math to explain why, in all situations, paladin benefits from 5% more EHR, and is thus easier to heal than a warrior. Let me define these terms:

Fundamental Enemy Damage: This is pretty straight forward, its the amount of damage an enemy deals to ta target before % modifications are applied. So, say you're a lvl 1 thm, no buffs, attacking a bumblebee. The bee hits you for 3. You have no buffs or damage mitigation, so you have suffered 3 pionts of FED. Protect, naturally does slightly reduce the damage received from attacks, but as all classes should always have this on in party situations, and it is so small, it can be more or less ignored. Similarly, defense is also going to be glossed over. For the purposes of this explanation, however, they are not relevant as both pld and war in equal gear will have the same DEF and both should have prot on. FED = Actual damage done to player (before any % reductions are applied).

Effective Health Points: EHP refers to the amount of FED required to kill a player. So, for every class except paladin, your EHP (when you aren't under the effects of any cool down) just is your actual hp. The boss hits you for 10 FED, you take 10 damage, and you die when you run out of HP. EHP = Amount of FED needed to kill you.

Effective Healing Recieved: EHR is the amount of FED restored by a given cure spell. As with EHP, for most classes the amount of healing you see just is your EHR as it is not modified in any way. A 1000 point physic cast by Nopax on Redeemer's blm will restore 1000 points of FED. EHR = Amount of FED restored per point of healing done.

Section 2: Defiance vs Shield Oath

Defiance and Sword Oath: EHP. Both of these buffs increase the tank's EHP. I will now demonstrate that both classes have exactly equal EHP when at equal VIT. Lets say you have a tank whose vit, without any buff on, places them at 7000 hit points. Let us see what happens if that tank pops defiance and shield oath.

Defiance: "Increases warrior's health by 25%." This is pretty straight forward. 7000 is increased by 25%, so 7000 X 1.25 = 8750 hit points. Defiance has increased the warrior's hp and ehp by 1750 points, or 25%.

Shield Oath: This trips most people up. They read the "Reduces incoming damage by 20%" and think, "cool get hit for less" and don't realize that what this is really doing is increasing paladin's EHP. You might be inclined to think "reduces by 20% so it increases EHP by 20%, cool war has a 5% advantage fuck you loserdin." But that's not how math works. Since damage is reduced by 20%, this means that a paladins health pool is equal to 80% of the FED required to kill them. Therefore, to know a pld's EHP, we must find the number that 7000 is 80% of: 7000 divided by 0.80 will give you this amount. (If you don't trust this, think of quarters. We all know 4 quarters in a dollar / a quarter is 25% of a dollar. If you were so inclined, you could find out how much a dollar was worth just form teh information "A quarter is worth .25 and is 25% of a dollar." .25 / .25 = 1. See look, my math is sound). 7000 / .80 = 8750. It, therefore, takes 8750 points of FED to kill the paladin, increasing its EHP by 1750, or 25%.

Tl; DR EHP Summary: Defiance-- 7000 x 1.25 = 8750. Shield Oath-- 7000 / .80 = 8750. 8750 = 8750. Both classes have exactly the same EHP at the same vit.


Section 3: Defiance vs Shield Oath - Effective Healing Received

Now, for the really important part:

Effective Healing Received: Defiance vs Shield Oath.
"Well no shit piper. Defiance says 'ncreases healing received by 20%' and shield oath doesn't do anything to heals so CLEARLY warrior is easier to heal. Fuck you piper, fuck you all failadins, warrior master race!" Well, my goose stepping friend, hold your horses. I'm about to crush you harder than Stalin did the thousand year reich at 'Grad. With math.

EHR--Defiance: "Increases healing received by 20%." Pretty straight forward, if you heal a warrior, the amount cured is increased by 20%. So, Say Nazipax Nopax casts physic on our tank and that his physic is worth 1000 points of healing. On our war, then, this is increased by 20%. 1000 x 1.20 = 1200. Since warrior's hp is equal to its EHP, every one point of health healed on a warrior is equal to one point of FED restored. Therefore, a physic cast on a warrior restores an extra 20% of FED as opposed to a physic cast on any non-tank class. A 1000 physic restored 1200 FED on a warrior. Defiance increased EHR by 20%

EHR--Shield Oath: So, this right here, this is the bit so many people haven't thought about / don't get. Shield oath has no explicitly stated healing bonus. It, however, amounts to a healing bonus. Let us see why:

So, a scholar casts physic on a paladin, and since there is no built in healing bonus, it heals the pld for 1000 hit points. Paladin hit points, however, are not like warrior hit points which are, like every other class, worth 1 point of FED each. Paladin hit points are actually worth 1.25 points of FED each (Again, 1 / .80 = 1.25). Therefore, for a paladin to have lost 1000 hit points, they must have received 1250 points of FED. Accordingly, any healing done on a paladin restores 25% more FED than when cast on a non tank class. (1250 - 1000 = 250. 250 / 1000 = .25.) Shield oath increases EHR by 25%

Tl; DR EHR: Defiance increases a warrior's EHR by 20%, Shield oath increases a paladin's EHR by 25%.

Section 4: Defiance vs Shield Oath Analysis

What all this means:
Because both war and pld enjoy a 25% EHP increase, the only differential between them regarding how easy they are to heal is in their EHR. As shown above, war EHR is +20%, pld EHR is +25%. This means paladin has a 5% EHR advantage. Paladin, therefore, requires 5% less healing than warrior does to restore the same amount of FED.

To understand the implications of this, lets first consider what is going on when you heal a target taking constant damage. So, the real limitation on how much FED a healer can restore on a tank isn't really their mana (both classes can heal a single target all but indefinitely). Rather, its how much FED they can restore each global cool down (spell cast time) relative to how much damage the tank is taking. So, in a high damage situation, such as Twintania or double dreads, or a movement heavy phase in titan, tanks will die not because healers ran out of mana but because they could not heal FED quickly enough. Remember, in all of these situations, there are other demands on the healers-- they also need to heal raid party damage, they need to buff before big aoes, they want to add dps to burn phases, they need time to avoid aoes. Etc etc. Thus, the less time a healer needs to cure a tank the better, and the more likely the tank will survive. Another way to state this is to say "the more FED cured per spell cast, the better."

Armed with all this math and knowledge, lets look at some examples, and I will, at last, prove to you that paladin is, in absolutely all situations, easier to heal than a warrior.

Lets try Twintania. Her major attack is death sentence. This attack is quite strong, with FED values occasionally up to and exceeding 7500. Her auto attacks can also hit for 1500 FED, and plummet can be as high as 2500 FED. Here's the fun part, you can take all three of these within 2 gcds (twin also has a gcd between her major moves, just like us) and you'll probably get two auto attacks. So let's call it 12500 FED in a space of time where healers will be able to give you 1-2 spell casts (depending on how they pre-cured, latency, etc). So, between the two healers, you're looking at 2-4 heals across the time you take 12500 FED. Let us not count on any crit heals, but assume the sch is using adlo and the whm timed the stone skin excellently.

So here are the numbers. Our 7k hp tank, for both classes, has 8750 EHP. Stone skin is 18%, (PLD: 7000hp x 1.18ss = 8260; 8260 / .80shield oath = 10325 EHP; WAR: 7000hp x 1.25 defiance = 87500; 87500 X 1.18 stone skin = 10325 EHP) Let's add a 1400 point adlo. For the first time, EHP will differentiate between the two classes, and this is because the classes EHR is different. PLD: 10325EHP + (1400 adlo / .8 SO = 1750 EHP) = 12075 EHP. WAR: 10325HP + (1400 adlo x 1.2 defiance = 1680) = 12005 EHP.

So, fully buffed with stone skin and a 1400 point adlo, our two tanks stand down the barrel from 12500 FED with 12075 EHP on the pld and 12005 EHP on the warrior. Both classes would be killed out right if unhealed, but, the pld does currently stand 70 hp closer to living to face another gcd.

Status: The PLD is at -425 EHP, the war at -495 EHP.

The healing begins: Whm cure 2 for 2k, another adlo for 1400.
PLD: 2000 / .8 + 1400 / .8 = 2500 + 1750 = 4250 FED healing done, and a 1750 EHP shield on the pld. The pld is now at 5575 EHP.
War: 2000 x 1.2 + 1400 x 1.2 = 2400 + 1680 = 4080 healing done, and a 1680 shield on the war. The war is now at 5265 EHP.

The warrior has 94% of the ehp as the paladin at this point. Thus, you can see the effective healing bonus on paladin actually amounts to even larger effective hp gains in the face of damage because of its gains on adlo.

Another round:
lets assume this first adlo wasn't consumed (since we didn't account for it in our intial damage subtraction, and it can't stack anyway, it just over writes up to the full amount).

PLD gains 4250 FED worth of healing, warrior gains 4080 FED. PLD = 9825 EHP, WAR = 9345 EHP. The warrior has closed the gap to 95% since a new adlo wasn't accounted for, but is still behind.

If you keep running this over and over, the warrior keeps loosing ground in terms of total EHP. The longer the fight goes on, the larger the number that 5% adds up too. By the time say, 30,000 FED has been dealt, the paladin will lose 24,000 hit points which need to be healed by 24,000 points of curing. The warrior will loose 30,000 which is cured by 25,000 points of healing. This may sound fairly small and arbitrary, but, actually, 30,00 FED is approximately how much you take in a given 30 seconds on Twintania. 3 Plummets, 1 death sentence, and assuming she auto attacks once per global tick (3 seconds, which is what most people have parsed her at) 10 auto attacks. For every thirty seconds a warrior tanks twin, he requires one more gcd spent healing than the paladin. This is an extra gcd even if a healer gets conflaged, an extra gcd the healers cannot restore the party to full, a gcd they cannot spend buffing the party and tank (so it makes it that much harder for the whm to stone skin the warrior, as an example). 12 gcd's pass in that 30 seconds, two healers, so its 1 more GCD out of 24, or about 5% more time healing the warrior. Sure, I'm not saying this is an impossible disadvantage or that war cannot tank twin. Just that it is that much easier to heal a paladin through it.

Okay, fine you say, its slightly (5%) easier to heal a paladin in high damage situations. Cool. Still better to have a war in low level cus war is easier to heal when teh damage coming in is lower.

Yeah... no. You see, no matter how big or small the damage coming in is, the healer will always need to work 5% harder to restore the same FED on a warrior than on a paladin. In low damage situations this will likely mean the healer can go longer between casting heals (allow for more dps / more mana regen / more time healing raid, etc). The only time this would really be swayed is if the damage in coming was so low, that second wind and blood bath were able to amount to 5% of the healing received over the duration of their cool downs, but then you could start arguing back and forth over all sorts of cd usage.. and that's just messy. I promise, I will do a follow up post comparing the cool downs over time between the classes. This discussion is just about the two tanking stances.

Way too long, Did not read cus Piper is the very essence of evil:
Okay, that's it. Be it twintania or stone vigil, paladin in shield oath requires 5% less time and mana to restore the same Fundamental Enemy Damage as is needed on a Warrior. Paladin has a small, but non-negligible advantage in effective healing received.


Note: I am independently working on comparing cool downs in depth. All of this will appear on the tanking forums in a much larger summary work on a total comparison between the two classes. A summary of that total math, not including passive mitigation from parry or shield, is as follows just as a reference tool lacking any real context:

Comparison Including Tanking Stances:
Paladin left, Warrior Right, second warrior number is if infuriate is always used for extra inner beast (largely impractical to get full effect of)
DR over time: 30.38% vs 9.42% - 11.42%
eHP over time: 36.58% vs 38.70% - 40.74%
HR over time: 41.58% vs 33.73 - 35.77%

Note: The important bit is the huge gap in HR, as opposed to the small gap in EHP over time. Also, the EHP advantage on war is because of Thrill of battle.

[YuriRamona]

snip

Thanks for the informative post. Not sure if all the math was necessary, but it's accurate.

The problem is that we're not factoring in cooldowns and abilities available to PLD and WAR, and so I don't know if the 5% advantage of PLD has any real impact on the choice between the two tanks (not that you're making any kind of conclusion on that point). In my previous analysis, both of them count out rather evenly, with WAR being more consistent in damage mitigation over PLD's superior "oh-shit" saves (awesome shield blocks, Sentinel, and Hallowed Ground).

EDIT: I see that you're currently crunching the numbers. I'd like to see the results of that analysis, because it seems to me that Inner Beast could theoretically be up several times a minute. Halone seems to pale in comparison to Storm's Eye. I'm guessing that the shield provides a large chunk of that damage reduction bonus.

[Kal-El]

If you are taking 1k damage or more then its something like a mountain buster. In this case WAR is a better tank because of Storms Eye and Inner Beast which will reduce the MB by 30% where a PLD will only reduce it by 20%

I didn't realise a PLD's CDs couldn't be used for mountain buster?

Wish people would stop making arguments like "Aww yeah if I used all these skills and you didn't use any then I'd be better". There is no "Better tank". Only better players and if you're not gonna use CDs on MB as a PLD then sadly you're not one of these.

[Kelberos]

I'd like to see the results of that analysis, because it seems to me that Inner Beast could theoretically be up several times a minute. Halone seems to pale in comparison to Storm's Eye.

Yuri you are correct but you assume too much or put too much faith on us warriors.

On paper you are probably correct that Inner Beast can offer better damage reduction throughout but one does not become a warrior simply to stack Inner Beast 100% of the time I rolled a warrior because I'm bored of stacking the same tank combo day in day out. That's why I now carry a giant axe and I don't use Inner Beast that much unless I know a big hit is coming. Steel Cyclone is so much fun to pop.

But if i know im going to get smacked around like a ragdoll you can bet your gil i'll have storm path and inner beast up with D-Cooldowns on deck.

And that sir, is why we are probably considered a more fickle bunch. Because we have more than one way (or combo) to tank.

[PlayFair]

lol innerbeast only lasts 6 seconds.

What is that got to do with anything? Inner Beast will still be up during those big hits (mountain buster, wicked wheel) if you can not manage your Inner Beast timing for these important attack then you shouldn't be playing a WAR.

I didn't realise a PLD's CDs couldn't be used for mountain buster?

Wish people would stop making arguments like "Aww yeah if I used all these skills and you didn't use any then I'd be better". There is no "Better tank". Only better players and if you're not gonna use CDs on MB as a PLD then sadly you're not one of these.

I didn't realise a PLD's CDs could be used for every mountain buster?

Wish people would stop making arguments like "Aww yeah my CDs are up when ever i need them so i am a much better tank".

I agree that there is no "Better tank", in fact, i think the best setup is to bring 1 PLD and 1 WAR this way the PLD can benefit from Storms Path and a WAR can benefit from Rage of Halone.

[Nalou]

...

Are you sure stoneskin/Aldo shields benefits from personnal damage reduction buffs (like shield Oath or Vengeance) ?

I see these as shields, so something that proceeds before our characters are hit, as if someone else was hit instead of me. So while my stoneskin is damaged, why would my own damage reduction buff apply to it ?

I could see abilities lowering monster damage like Storm's Path or Rage Of Halone lower damage done to stoneskin/shield.

[xAlice]

Wanted to offer my thanks for the in-depth analysis on the why it seems that way.

It's probably one of the first things I picked up, healing my tank partner back when he had lower level gear on his PLD and WAR. Why? Cause I was allowed to be lazier healing his PLD.