White Mage is Poorly designed compared to Scholar

[Sebazy]

I only use it for bursts of dps with holy/stone II. I'm kind of nervous about using it as a panic button due to the risk of the first cast as it activates occasionally getting interrupted. Whilst I'm actually beginning to like Cure III the more I use it, I totally agree that PoM could do with some attention.

[Eriane]

Yeah, this.

What I see about White Mage and Scholars:

1. White Mage is for burst heals with threat of enmity. Evident with Cure II, Benediction, and Shroud of Saints
2. Scholar is for sustained heals. Evident with low heal potency, multiple instances of heals and sustainable flow of MP

In single target healing whm can't touch sch burst healing. A sch microing pet is almost always healing close to the potency of a whm cure 2. The only area where whm excel is burst aoe healing.

What low heal potency? cure and physick are the same, then add embrace.

whm cure 2 in ilvl 90 is roughly 1700 with a det build.
sch physick is roughly 1000 plus fairy at 650 for half the mana and half the threat with a crit build. Fairy heal is slightly longer, but then factor adlo. with the shield the potency is equal to cure 2 on its own. I won't bring up lustrate.

[Aeser]

In single target healing whm can't touch sch burst healing. A sch microing pet is almost always healing close to the potency of a whm cure 2. The only area where whm excel is burst aoe healing.

What low heal potency? cure and physick are the same, then add embrace.

whm cure 2 in ilvl 90 is roughly 1700 with a det build.
sch physick is roughly 1000 plus fairy at 650 for half the mana and half the threat with a crit build. Fairy heal is slightly longer, but then factor adlo. with the shield the potency is equal to cure 2 on its own. I won't bring up lustrate.

With Adloquium, the potency is 300. so unless it crits, it's still equivalent to a 600 potency, which is 50 less than cure II.
Dont forget to factor in Divine Seal, since we're talking about burst healing. Cure II goes for about ~1600 for my build. DS goes to about 2100. With Presence of Mind, if you ever use it, my cure casting time will go from 1.93 to ~1.60. factor in regen since as far as I've been able to tell, will be on the tank a majority of the time. 3255 with DS, 2555 w/o DS. I'm in iLVL 83. so the numbers should go up a bit with iLVL 90.

So dont discount WHM burst just yet.

I still believe that WHM is very lackluster in regards to synergy, with the 15% chance to trigger a free Cure II, and Cure II's 15% chance to trigger Freecure. I'm not a fan of relying on RNG to gain benefits to my class for the core abilities. one of which (freecure) is rarely used, since the window is 10 seconds (if i remember correctly). If they bumped up the duration to 30 seconds, or permament; removed upon changing areas, i believe it would be far more beneficial, but that's just food for thought. Just throwing out something.

[sharazisspecial]

Dont forget to factor in Divine Seal

Sch have cooldowns as well. They also affect allied healer too. Rouse, Fey illumination, Fey covenant and possibly Fey glow. Don't forget about lustrate too , it has a small cooldown of 3 per minute.

You are actually factoring in Presence of mind? Might as well factor in benediction while your at it. They have the same cooldown...

You are really undervaluing adloquium. The shield portion never overheals unlike your 3k cure2 crit. Regen overheals quite a bit too due to how it ticks every 3 seconds and can't be controlled or timed.

[Aeser]

i'm not forgetting anything. it was said whm cant touch sch. WHM can do pretty damn good burst healing as well. I use DS all the time, and PoM, even though it's simply just bad is still there.

I'm just talking about burst healing. I didnt include benediction since the previous person said they wouldnt include lustrate.

I'm not undervaluing anything at all. just stating the healing potential. i never included over healing since with burst healing your trying to get your tank up as fast as possible. not topping them off.

I'm also fully aware whm's are more for AoE healing, not single target/ tank healing.

i was just stating what i've observed, and made a counter point to previous poster.

[WhoIsTheGuest]

Well, let's not just focus on PvE healing.
Honestly I don't think there's much to debate in that aspect, because that's the very fundamental function of both healer classes.
If it were to be lopsided to SCH, then no raid group would even want WHM, which is not the case right now.

Recently did PvP with WHM and SCH:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...der-PvE-choice.

In PvP, WHM is totally eclipsed by SCH:
- Better mobility (more instacasts)
- Healbot+distraction (pet with hp pool)
- Much more and better utilities (enhanced virus + EfaE, blind, Miasma II, Sacred Soil + Shadow Flare)
- Better style of healing:
-- Lustrate >>> Benediction
-- Strength of WHM (AoE Heal) becomes moot in PvP: AoE heal very situational for PvP due to scattered teammates and etc.
-- Miasma II = anti-healing, which makes the team with WHM much harder to heal, handicapped, because for each target that insta-cast Miasma affected, WHM need to pull-off two cast-time spells: Esuna + Heal. FOR. EACH. AFFECTED. TARGET.

That's for PvP. It makes me feel bad for my teammate if I choose to be WHM while we fight team with SCH.

As for PvE, well, since this thread already speak much about that, I'll save the recap, it's listed in my thread anyway.
But just to voice-out my major gripe:
- WHM once dead, no good way to regain MP without help from bard. SCH can hold on its own.
- Too long cooldowns for Benediction and Presence of Mind.
- WHM heal-procs totally unreliable, but SCH can spec to improve chance...plus extra shield with that...
- WHM lacking many good utilities that SCH has.

So please, stop denying WHM is poorly designed compared to SCH, and don't just look at the PvE Healing, it's simply too fundamental to be lopsided.
Again, not calling for SCH nerf, but WHM really needs some love.
Regardless, as long as WHM not screwed to the ground, I'll stick with it

[koikitty]

With shroud I can easily keep my mana up, plus bards keep me up too. I out heal most sch, and I dont have all that other stuff but im perfectly fine. To say poorly, is abit steep.

[Eriane]

i'm not forgetting anything. it was said whm cant touch sch. WHM can do pretty damn good burst healing as well. I use DS all the time, and PoM, even though it's simply just bad is still there.

I'm just talking about burst healing. I didnt include benediction since the previous person said they wouldnt include lustrate.

I'm not undervaluing anything at all. just stating the healing potential. i never included over healing since with burst healing your trying to get your tank up as fast as possible. not topping them off.

I'm also fully aware whm's are more for AoE healing, not single target/ tank healing.

i was just stating what i've observed, and made a counter point to previous poster.

When I say burst I mean roughly 2.5-3 sec before the tank gets hit again, and you have to consider lustrate. Bene isn't reliable with a 5 min cd but lustrate is potentially 3 times a min.

Whm burst heal: DS Cure 2
Sch burst heal: Fey illumination, adlo, rouse, embrace, and lustrate. The adlo and embrace can be cast together and lustrate is off the gcd.
Your cure 2 crits, great, if adlo crits the shield is doubled.

There is no comparison, even moreso if you consider that with any healing debuff will wreck a whm's heals but sch lustrate isn't affected.

With Adloquium, the potency is 300. so unless it crits, it's still equivalent to a 600 potency, which is 50 less than cure II.
Dont forget to factor in Divine Seal, since we're talking about burst healing. Cure II goes for about ~1600 for my build. DS goes to about 2100. With Presence of Mind, if you ever use it, my cure casting time will go from 1.93 to ~1.60. factor in regen since as far as I've been able to tell, will be on the tank a majority of the time. 3255 with DS, 2555 w/o DS. I'm in iLVL 83. so the numbers should go up a bit with iLVL 90.

My whm is ilvl 90 with a det build. My cure is around 1100 and my cure 2 is 1700-1800.
My raid sch is ilvl 82, crit build (what else). Physick is around 1k and embrace is 650. When his adlo crits I sit back and take a break.

Why are we talking about pom? its 5 min cd.

If you want to factor in ds you have to consider fey and rouse. also keep in mind the sch have better dmg mitigation and preshielding. with less threat and better mana management. Go ahead and spam cure 2 for a bit and see how your mana is doing crumpled in a dry heap on the floor while your sch buddy is wishing he could give you some of his. This has happened to me a few times in dumb situations, like a tank without cd's tanking two dreadnaughts that ate spiders in the last phase of turn 4. I think I nearly went out of mana with bard song, sch was at half. I get that you aren't supposed to heal stupid, but a sch borderline can.

I was talking with two raiding sch from my fc yesterday and it was funny to listen to them talk about how whm regen should be off the gcd, or stoneskin improved or something. Kinda makes me giggle. Personally I wouldn't mind medica 2 being changed to just a hot. Remove the burst heal and lower the mana cost to compensate. When I need to raid heal I'm using medica or cure 3 anyway. Give us the option of having a baby heal in the background.

But don't misunderstand, I'm not saying whm is terrible or sch should be nerfed. But a few qol changes would really help. Heck, i'll even take bene actually being instant and not having the tank die as the heal goes off and the cd wasted.

[Aeser]

When I say burst I mean roughly 2.5-3 sec before the tank gets hit again, and you have to consider lustrate. Bene isn't reliable with a 5 min cd but lustrate is potentially 3 times a min.

Whm burst heal: DS Cure 2
Sch burst heal: Fey illumination, adlo, rouse, embrace, and lustrate. The adlo and embrace can be cast together and lustrate is off the gcd.
Your cure 2 crits, great, if adlo crits the shield is doubled.

There is no comparison, even moreso if you consider that with any healing debuff will wreck a whm's heals but sch lustrate isn't affected.



My whm is ilvl 90 with a det build. My cure is around 1100 and my cure 2 is 1700-1800.
My raid sch is ilvl 82, crit build (what else). Physick is around 1k and embrace is 650. When his adlo crits I sit back and take a break.

Why are we talking about pom? its 5 min cd.

If you want to factor in ds you have to consider fey and rouse. also keep in mind the sch have better dmg mitigation and preshielding. with less threat and better mana management. Go ahead and spam cure 2 for a bit and see how your mana is doing crumpled in a dry heap on the floor while your sch buddy is wishing he could give you some of his. This has happened to me a few times in dumb situations, like a tank without cd's tanking two dreadnaughts that ate spiders in the last phase of turn 4. I think I nearly went out of mana with bard song, sch was at half. I get that you aren't supposed to heal stupid, but a sch borderline can.

I was talking with two raiding sch from my fc yesterday and it was funny to listen to them talk about how whm regen should be off the gcd, or stoneskin improved or something. Kinda makes me giggle. Personally I wouldn't mind medica 2 being changed to just a hot. Remove the burst heal and lower the mana cost to compensate. When I need to raid heal I'm using medica or cure 3 anyway. Give us the option of having a baby heal in the background.

But don't misunderstand, I'm not saying whm is terrible or sch should be nerfed. But a few qol changes would really help. Heck, i'll even take bene actually being instant and not having the tank die as the heal goes off and the cd wasted.

I relent then. It seems like a lot to setup for your burst healing though. hit 4 abilities. with Fey illumination on a 2 min CD. If you can, could you show some numbers? I'd like to compare in a 5 second window how much healing can be done. Without proof (not being cynical, i just like to compare numbers) i only see SCH having a huge advantage with Lustrate. (i am a bit jealous over that ability and it's utility)
"Your cure 2 crits, great, if adlo crits the shield is doubled." Why are we talking about unreliable RNG?


If Benediction actually was instant, then a lot of BS deaths would have been avoided.

I use PoM because it's there. It's an incredibly bad/lackluster ability, but it's still there, so not using it would be a waste.


I like the idea of Medica II being just an AoE regen, as that's what i ever use it for anyway.

[sharazisspecial]

With shroud I can easily keep my mana up, plus bards keep me up too. I out heal most sch, and I dont have all that other stuff but im perfectly fine. To say poorly, is abit steep.

Sch receive i would say 1.5 - 2.5 x the mana to work with in a fight compared to whm. Due to aetherflow scaling with mana, being a 1min cooldown compared to SS 2min cooldown. Sch also having access to free healing from fairy and lustrate.

A sch can simply heal more, dps more, prebuff more,raise more. A whm will be holding back to some extent.