[Discussion] BiS WAR 2.1

[TaalAzura]

Enmity is never a problem,unless you suck at playing. End of Story. I hold enmity EASILY over VASTLY out geared players. (Out gearing ME, not just content) When I had 4 iLvL 90 gear pieces, including the Weapon, I held Titan over a Full 90 + Allagan Bow Bard. No, he didn't hold back at all. Yes, he is a good player, and yes he out damage the entire group by 20% more than 2nd on Damage. I was consistently above this person't threat level by a good margin.

You're missing my point; yes it is very easy to keep hate using the BB rotation Square has provided for you while rotating it with our new DMG debuff SP combo, however I've proposed excluding the BB rotation and use the SP/SE rotation to increase damage output and self heals, which too increase enmity. Losing the BB rotation is a x3 and x5 modifier that is no longer in your circulation, and with enough damage output you should be able to maintain it, atleast for significantly longer than if you were using a full vit/parry build and using a BB+SP rotation. Worst case scenario with this build you switch your SP+SE rotation with a BB+SP until hate is normalized again, to which you return to SE+SP.

As for Role builds: That's where I would argue with you about your opinion. BTW You just listed more than 50% of the content while saying "Aside from..." So.. I chuckled a little there. So basically, your saying Turn 4 is the only fight end game that you don't need to be geared the same?

I feel that an Off tank should not be geared at ALL the same as an MT.

I have 3 armor sets currently. MT, OT, and DPS/OT.

If your not actively tanking something why would you want to gimp your potential DPS in any significant way?

I agree with you, and mentioned the 3 fights that a WAR could and should go full DPS build instead of a tanking build, so whats the confusion here?

IMO, BiS for OT Warrior is Hero's Belt of Fending since I'd rather have the Determination as an OT than Parry. But if I was the MT, I'd take Allagan.

For ADS/Primals/Turn5 I agree.

If your MTing Twintania, You still always want to have a HUGE HP Pool Just in case something prevents you from putting up your Mitigation in time. (Pacification from Berserk for example, or having used unchained at the wrong moment.) Twintania will still smack you for 7800 if you don't manage to toss out that IB at the right time whle Vengence is on CD.

If your an OT for Twintania, the 3 Dragons are very weak, so you don't need all that MT mitigation and HP to deal with them. Defiance alone does the trick, and toss out a Vengence at the start to mitigate from 3 of them. After that, it's full on DPS to burn them down quickly. Then it's on to...... You guessed, it being 2nd on Aggro, and Dealing as much DPS as possible to Twintania in order to end the forsaken fight. At that point, ALL of your mitigation skills are borderline worthless, as you won't be taking threat on Twintania, unless your group failed. if you mention Snakes now, the Big Snake is for the MT, the 4 little ones are easy, and I have accidentally tanked them perfectly fine in Sword Oath when I was forced to play my undergeared Paladin. (Which means I was playing as a 6.3K HP Flash bot with no mitigation aside from Shield Blocks)

This is the only decent part of the post, and one worth discussing. For a party that doesn't have the fight on farm, 100% into VIT stacking. Even with the fight on farm I have to say a MT should stack VIT, only because of DS. The only exception, would be with full ilvl90 healers who know how to precast SS/Adloquim, and if youre keeping on your SE buff (which either rotation/build you should be).

There isn't a reason NOT to use your BB combo tohugh.
You'd for sure try to keep Storm's Path and not keep SE up 100% anymore.
I can sense it would be

BB>BB>SP>SE>BB>BB>SP>BB>BB>SE

If only because SE isn't really critical towards our enmity generaton.

No but it it critical to dmg output. I'm arguing maintaining a 10% damage increase for you as well as the other tank can potentially be prioritized over the BB combo if you're able to maintain enmity through DPS, only using BB early in the fight to build hate and if you are close to losing hate. It depends on a lot of factors and is all theorycrafting until tomorrow.

[ZDamned]

so whats the confusion here?

This:

And the builds aren't role specific, besides Turn1 ADS/Turn 5/Primals there no reason an OT should not be geared the same as MT.

Am I misunderstanding something? it sounds like you totally disagree with me based on that quote.

As for Enmity, I don't have enough reason to believe that we will be able to out Threaten the DPS at without Skull Sunder and BB being used at least every 4th Combo. Not saying you are incorrect because we are both speculating here. I would LOVE for what you suggest to be the reality, Trust me! So lets hope?

But to be more realistic, I want them to make Defiance change to be 150% more Enmity, as opposed to the current 125%.

So, pre-Defiance, 1 Damage = 1 Enmity
- 100 Damage = 100 Enmity
- D 65 Damage = 81.25 Enmity (Pre Patch)
- 2.1D 65 Damage = 107.25 Enmity (2.1 hopeful)

In this case, we sill wouldn't be able to hold without using Butchers Block all the time, because Monks, and Dragoons both are getting heavy buffs this patch to their damage, and we do NOT out damage them even while going full strength. (Bonus and Accessories) So to think that we would be able to hold enmity over them without BB would be very hopeful, but were at a HUGE strength disadvantage compared to both of them.

[TaalAzura]

Am I misunderstanding something? it sounds like you totally disagree with me based on that quote.

Basically what I meant was for OT, the fights that I listed the OT should be in full DPS gear considering the little tanking that is needed, but for Caduceus/Turn2/Turn4/etc where the OT and MT roles are barely different, they should be geared to optimize tanking ability. I think we're on the same page there, unless I'm missing something x__x

As for Enmity, I don't have enough reason to believe that we will be able to out Threaten the DPS at without Skull Sunder and BB being used at least every 4th Combo. Not saying you are incorrect because we are both speculating here. I would LOVE for what you suggest to be the reality, Trust me! So lets hope?

But to be more realistic, I want them to make Defiance change to be 150% more Enmity, as opposed to the current 125%.

So, pre-Defiance, 1 Damage = 1 Enmity
- 100 Damage = 100 Enmity
- D 65 Damage = 81.25 Enmity (Pre Patch)
- 2.1D 65 Damage = 107.25 Enmity (2.1 hopeful)

In this case, we still wouldn't be able to hold without using Butchers Block all the time, because Monks, and Dragoons both are getting heavy buffs this patch to their damage, and we do NOT out damage them even while going full strength. (Bonus and Accessories) So to think that we would be able to hold enmity over them without BB would be very hopeful, but were at a HUGE strength disadvantage compared to both of them.

I want to believe SE+SP rotation is managable, but I know deep down in order to keep hate a BB rotation is necessary. With that said, tomorrow I'm taking some DPS friends to do their typical DPS rotations on a dummy against me trying to maintain hate without BB, as well as trying to find a rotation that minimizes BB usage if you're interested in any data/findings. If it is possible or close, I would go as far as to put WAR helm/Allagan Hands/melding the ACC for -3 Parry+3 DTR. ALso, you must take into account the fact that fights like Turn 4 and Twintania, the DPS have to occasionally change targets, giving you a chance to build more hate.

[Leiron]

No but it it critical to dmg output. I'm arguing maintaining a 10% damage increase for you as well as the other tank can potentially be prioritized over the BB combo if you're able to maintain enmity through DPS, only using BB early in the fight to build hate and if you are close to losing hate. It depends on a lot of factors and is all theorycrafting until tomorrow.

Well the problem is that you had Monks and DRG getting their massive buffs.
So we'll be a bit mor stressed to maintain enmity.
Trut be told, while SE does provide about 11% more damage, it isn't absolutely critical, so you can afford to not have it up 100% of the time like we do now with BB>BB>SE.
Particularly since the 10% reduced damage is very important for maintaining for the success of the raid.

You do have a point, alot of it is theory and we really won't know how much of an effect this has until parses pop up.