Summoner - The whining needs to stop.

[Kevee]

Flash isn't as potent as you seem to believe.

Yes, it is. It scales with gear, but it's perfectly fine at holding AoE aggro. Again, don't flash 1, 2, or even 3 times and think that's OK.

Yell at the person single targeting when you should be AoEing. It's faster to AoE -- Don't yell at the person AoEing trying to make the run faster.

[Seriat]

Yes, it is. It scales with gear, but it's perfectly fine at holding AoE aggro. Again, don't flash 1, 2, or even 3 times and think that's OK.

Yell at the person single targeting when you should be AoEing. It's faster to AoE -- Don't yell at the person AoEing trying to make the run faster.

Way to completely miss the point of my original post. I never said SMN shouldn't AoE. What I said was keeping hate from a SMN doing DoT while keeping hate from a single target DPS is difficult.
You say spam flash more. Well that works for the other mobs you as SMN are DoT'ing but doing nothing for the mob the MNK is hammering on. To maintain a good hate lead on the MNK, we need to rocking RoH combo as fast as possible while still trying to weave flash and CoS into the mix. I would suggest you actually level GLD/PLD before you start spouting about how "easy" something is that you have no idea about.

[Kevee]

Way to completely miss the point of my original post. I never said SMN shouldn't AoE. What I said was keeping hate from a SMN doing DoT while keeping hate from a single target DPS is difficult.
You say spam flash more. Well that works for the other mobs you as SMN are DoT'ing but doing nothing for the mob the MNK is hammering on. To maintain a good hate lead on the MNK, we need to rocking RoH combo as fast as possible while still trying to weave flash and CoS into the mix. I would suggest you actually level GLD/PLD before you start spouting about how "easy" something is that you have no idea about.

"Way to completely miss the point" -> Addressed what you're talking about in the second half.

MNK should be 123(3 being the AoE), tab, 123, tab, 123, tab, 123. If they're not, complain to them. It's not my problem if MNKs don't know how to maximize trash efficiency.


I don't need to level it to know how it works. I've been with plenty of tanks, can see what they do, and have seen plenty of videos on what tanks do. I have experience in what works, and what doesn't, from a DPS perspective. I don't need to level it to know I need to press "4" 3 times. I don't need to level a tank to know how Provoke works, I don't need to level a tank to know when to pop CDs, etc.

[Seriat]

"Way to completely miss the point" -> Addressed what you're talking about in the second half.

MNK should be 123(3 being the AoE), tab, 123, tab, 123, tab, 123. If they're not, complain to them. It's not my problem if MNKs don't know how to maximize trash efficiency.


I don't need to level it to know how it works. I've been with plenty of tanks, can see what they do, and have seen plenty of videos on what tanks do. I have experience in what works, and what doesn't, from a DPS perspective. I don't need to level it to know I need to press "4" 3 times. I don't need to level a tank to know how Provoke works, I don't need to level a tank to know when to pop CDs, etc.

Did I touch a nerve? lol

[Hyrist]

Makes me wonder if the Summoner that's supposedly pulling hate off these endgame tanks is managing their hate correctly.

[Maelwys]

Way to completely miss the point of my original post. I never said SMN shouldn't AoE. What I said was keeping hate from a SMN doing DoT while keeping hate from a single target DPS is difficult.
You say spam flash more. Well that works for the other mobs you as SMN are DoT'ing but doing nothing for the mob the MNK is hammering on. To maintain a good hate lead on the MNK, we need to rocking RoH combo as fast as possible while still trying to weave flash and CoS into the mix. I would suggest you actually level GLD/PLD before you start spouting about how "easy" something is that you have no idea about.

That.

As a Paladin I tend to flash spam whenever there are 4+ mobs, whilst rotating my 'Riot Blade' combo to keep my MP up (this results in low hate gain on many targets, dedicated DPS focussing on one target will easily pull ahead), or I can cycle the RoH combo to split the enmity across 2-3 mobs at a time (higher hate gain, DPS won't pull hate off me unless I'm undergeared), or I can do a little of both - Flash a few times at the start and RoH the main target, then begin to rotate the RoH combo (and the occasional Flash) around the other mobs once the ST DPS trim the herd a bit. A Warrior is a bit better at getting a large lead in AoE hate quickly but they will struggle to sustain that lead for as long - they can only spam Overpower until they get low on TP and they have no means of regenerating the MP from Flashes unless there is a Bard in the party.

It assumes a lot of skill on the part of ST DPS (MNK and DRG, and to a lesser extent BLM) to be able to split and balance their hate properly across multiple mobs (because they'll sure as heck not be following the Tank's marking if they're doing that). And due to those first two jobs being melee and having highly positional weaponskill combos, they actually LOSE a substantial amount of DPS by repeatedly having to target swap.

If I'm in a party with a SMN and a BRD/BLM and you have all loudly declared your lust for carnage, then yes, by all means you can all spam AoEs and I'll run my reflective paladin rear off trying my darnest to keep everything flashed. But if we throw a few ST damage dealers into the mix then I'll start marking targets in order of how I want them killed. I'll still flash occasionally and you're still free to DoT stuff, but if you end up pulling hate on anything other than the lowest-marked target, well...
...well...
...well I'll probably still attempt to pull it off you because I'm just a teeny tiny bit OCD about maintaining proper aggro control.

But technically you could potentially end up tanking it yourself whilst the ST DDs trim the herd and actually follow* the marking order.
And I'd feel slightly less guilty than normal about losing hate because you'd brought it on yourself.
So there.



[*except for those two duty-finder Relic+1 DRGs from WP the other night. Apparently "Real DRGs don't follow orders", and this includes enemy marking orders. Fun times.]

[PiedPiper]

To maintain a good hate lead on the MNK, we need to rocking RoH combo as fast as possible while still trying to weave flash and CoS into the mix. I would suggest you actually level GLD/PLD before you start spouting about how "easy" something is that you have no idea about.

OH HAI I R HAVE LEVELD TEH PALAXADIN TO TEH MAXEZ. I HAZ TEH RELIX AND ONE, TEH SHINY COAT AND TIARA AND EVEN TEH ALLAGANNZZZZ

Yes, it is. It scales with gear, but it's perfectly fine at holding AoE aggro. Again, don't flash 1, 2, or even 3 times and think that's OK.
.

Kevee, as usual when it comes to smn party mechanics, is completely correct. Flash is extremely potent. If you burn down your mp pool on flash and keep cos on coold own (which, ps, is used between gcd's so there is no "weaving" you just use it, when ever, regardless of what skilsl you are using), you won't loose threat against single or mulit target. If one single target dps is givng you problems, you can easily go 3 flashes -> fast blade -> savage -> flash -> rage -> flash. Flash doesn't interrupt our combos for a reason. You can also use spirits on the main target to help out.

Flash is based on weapon damage, so if your relix are teh one plus, its very strong. This is why paladins have no problem in turn 4 bug phases or WP speed runs.

If you are loosing threat on trash mobs so early in the fight ita ctually matters (ie above 5% hp) then that's on you. Regardless of what your dps are doing in terms of single target or aoe. You have the tools to build adequate hate over the spreadable dots (its really not that much dps. No festers, no ruins, etc on the off targets.)

[Maelwys]

OH HAI I R HAVE LEVELD TEH PALAXADIN TO TEH MAXEZ. I HAZ TEH RELIX AND ONE, TEH SHINY COAT AND TIARA AND EVEN TEH ALLAGANNZZZZ

You can dial back a little on the Provoke spam - pulling hate on the forums doesn't require quite that level of effort, and mobs tend to aggro quicker!

If you burn down your mp pool on flash and keep cos on coold own (which, ps, is used between gcd's so there is no "weaving" you just use it, when ever, regardless of what skilsl you are using), you won't loose threat against single or mulit target.

Honestly, I find it's not the Flash spam itself per-se. It's the time needed to Riot-blade the MP back up again (which gains no +enmity for nearly 2 GCDs per Flash) that impacts AoE hate generation so negatively.

With standard relic (not "teh shiny" version yet! ) I can generally still hold hate OK over a bunch of AoE DD'ers, but if we add in a ST DD'er who is only concentrating on one target at a time then it can get a little hairy. I suppose if we all vastly outlevel the content and I'm only there to herd stuff up and tank the bosses, then it doesn't really matter as much... but for harder content I'd rather keep hate and kill stuff more slowly than risk losing hate due to running out of MP mid-fight.

If I've a Bard, or the AoE DPS aren't going balls-to-the-wall (Fester/Ruin/etc - it happens a lot! >.<) so that my MP doesn't bottom out trying to keep hate and I can rotate in a few Riot Blades and/or RoH, I'm generally fine.

[Seriat]

Snip

Someone who gets it.

[MStowastiqVahlshdeh]

That.

As a Paladin I tend to flash spam whenever there are 4+ mobs, whilst rotating my 'Riot Blade' combo to keep my MP up (this results in low hate gain on many targets, dedicated DPS focussing on one target will easily pull ahead), or I can cycle the RoH combo to split the enmity across 2-3 mobs at a time (higher hate gain, DPS won't pull hate off me unless I'm undergeared), or I can do a little of both - Flash a few times at the start and RoH the main target, then begin to rotate the RoH combo (and the occasional Flash) around the other mobs once the ST DPS trim the herd a bit. A Warrior is a bit better at getting a large lead in AoE hate quickly but they will struggle to sustain that lead for as long - they can only spam Overpower until they get low on TP and they have no means of regenerating the MP from Flashes unless there is a Bard in the party.

It assumes a lot of skill on the part of ST DPS (MNK and DRG, and to a lesser extent BLM) to be able to split and balance their hate properly across multiple mobs (because they'll sure as heck not be following the Tank's marking if they're doing that). And due to those first two jobs being melee and having highly positional weaponskill combos, they actually LOSE a substantial amount of DPS by repeatedly having to target swap.

If I'm in a party with a SMN and a BRD/BLM and you have all loudly declared your lust for carnage, then yes, by all means you can all spam AoEs and I'll run my reflective paladin rear off trying my darnest to keep everything flashed. But if we throw a few ST damage dealers into the mix then I'll start marking targets in order of how I want them killed. I'll still flash occasionally and you're still free to DoT stuff, but if you end up pulling hate on anything other than the lowest-marked target, well...
...well...
...well I'll probably still attempt to pull it off you because I'm just a teeny tiny bit OCD about maintaining proper aggro control.

But technically you could potentially end up tanking it yourself whilst the ST DDs trim the herd and actually follow* the marking order.
And I'd feel slightly less guilty than normal about losing hate because you'd brought it on yourself.
So there.



[*except for those two duty-finder Relic+1 DRGs from WP the other night. Apparently "Real DRGs don't follow orders", and this includes enemy marking orders. Fun times.]

While I am not doing endgame content yet and therefore cannot reflect on what it is like to deal with endgame partying, I like your attitude and hope that when I do, it will be with folks like you.