White Mage: You should DPS and here's why.

[Nettle]

I don't know why you wouldn't DPS every non boss fight as a scholar in cleric stance. A placed Selene can solo heal almost everything outside of bosses without any micromanaging, with the exception of something like a speed run where multiple packs are being pulled. This is especially true when you can rouse at the start of most pulls with the 60s CD.

If things get hairy, pop eye for an eye, virus, and maybe a lustrate (unaffected by CS). Even on the toughest single group pulls, at the very least you should be able to get up both Bios, Miasma, and spread them before you have to help the fairy heal. Honestly though, I don't usually have to ever drop CS in a dungeon until the boss fights.

[pbplaya7]

I completely agree to this once you are comfortable with your class and can manage the party. This may not be the best idea for a fresh 50, depending on how they leveled (dungeons, FATEs, etc.). He/she should run a few AKs/WPs to get the dungeons figured out and then start stance dancing. Once you get to that point where you know the dungeons, you are just wasting everyone's time if you aren't doing DPS. You can easily knock 5 mins off a single dungeon run when you help out.

As for MP, the only time I have MP issues is when I use Holy 2-3 times in a single fight. Other than that, shroud is more than sufficient for an AK/WP run, especially if I don't use Holy.

[Araye]

She just likes to give the tanks a challenge, tossing out Holy when I'm barely holding aggro on five pulls in SV. :P

I am now nearly a lvl 50 WHM. Since putting all my stats in MND and using cleric stance, I do double (haven't done the exact math - don't care to) my PLD's DPS (put all my stats in VIT) just using Stone 2.

WHMs, remember that when you see me struggling to hold aggro as PLD.

As PLD, I watch as the healer stands there, looking for chests, doing the moon walk because they are bored: main reason I tank in dungeons rather than heal. If you want to contribute to DPS, cool. I think Tanaya's reasoning is sound, but Tanaya is also an experienced healer. If you're new to healing and do not know all the ramifications of your actions, just heal me.

Thanks

[Ehayte]

PS - There is an Internal Global CD of about 1.33 seconds (or something like that). Meaning, no two skills, whether they are tied to the GCD or not, can't be activated faster than 1.33s apart. This includes Cleric Stance > Aero I, and Aero II > Cleric stance.

This is the same reason you have to hit a stacked macro twice to get it to use both stacked abilities.

e.i.

/ac Sentinel
/ac Bloodbath

You would need to it that macro twice (1.33s apart) to fire both skills, even though the macro was told to fire both off, it couldn't because it was on the IGCD.

Hope that sheds light on some of the various concerns expressed.

[LiadansWhisper]

With my static groups, I DPS depending on the situation. But let's be honest - my DPS is absolutely pathetic compared to an actual DPS. What's more, my mana can tank very quickly if I actually have to heal, and it's hard to get back even with Shroud.

I actually dance a jig around the tank during pulls, just to poke him. Then again, I am known for poking my tanks. ^_^

[pbplaya7]

With my static groups, I DPS depending on the situation. But let's be honest - my DPS is absolutely pathetic compared to an actual DPS. What's more, my mana can tank very quickly if I actually have to heal, and it's hard to get back even with Shroud.

It may not be great, but in some boss fights it can be the difference that prevents that boss from going into the next phase (ex. 3rd AK boss). At least throw DoTs on in the beginning of the fight (start in cleric). It takes less than 5 secs to put aero I & II on and cleric out then get to healing.

[Tanaya]

Rather than debate your main point - because I agree with it - I'd like to steal this thread to ask a relevant question. As a SCH, I always consider it my duty to throw on extra DoTs and Ruin IIs (this actually has a directly beneficial effect on my healing, as it causes blind). But until recently, I have been avoiding using Cleric Stance, because I found it to be unreliable that it will turn off when I want it to in hectic situations. So what methods do other WHMs and SCHs use to make sure that their Cleric Stance is up when they want it, and down when they don't?

All Non-GCDs actually has a hidden GCD of ~1.5 seconds. It's not from animation lock or anything of that sort, it's just how it's designed. This can be show easily on PLD when you use Rage of Halone > Spirits Within. If you use it too soon, it'll cause SW to either cut off halfway and therefore not apply the damage and silence effect, or to just not work at all. Cleric Stance follows this same formula.

Personally, I hit the button as soon as the cast bar finishes of my last spell. Haven't had any problems since I've starting doing that.

For the most part, I disagree. Yea, if you are able to and can spare it, toss out some DPS. But for the most part, the DPS classes can handle it no problem at all.

As a healer, even against trash mobs the tank can drop VERY quickly and you really don't have the luxury of wasting GCD's on an enemy. What if the tank gets crit, or there's just a big hitting enemy, and BAM, he's at half health while you're in the middle of a cast, and the trigger the GCD? You can no doubt recover, but you shouldn't be in that situation. Yes, you CAN dps sometimes, but its very situational, and telling people that they should be DPSing is wrong, because they will find out by themselves the appropriate times to do so rather than make them think its something they should be constantly doing.

On top of all that, you have MP issues. Even as a Scholar where I have nearly infinite MP I have to watch how hard I DPS in some situations, because if something goes wrong and the fight gets hairy, I don't want to be stuck with 1/2-3/4 HP and need to try to heal everybody up while Enmity is everywhere.

You're overstating the "random" factor. Out of all the times I've DPS'd in dungeons, I have never, ever, had the problem of my party dying because I was DPSing. If a tank messes up and gets caught in a red zone, or someone else gets caught in a red zone, I turn off Cleric Stance and throw a Cure II, then back to business. If someone accidently gets caught by mobs, I just don't use Cleric Stance until the battlefield stabilizes. The only time I've had MP issues is if I spammed Holy too much and I forgot that I didn't have Shroud of Saints up (which leads to me dying rather than the tank).

With the procedure I've stated in the OP, I've actually DPS'd through entire dungeons on every pull, even before level 50. Boss fights can get scary and I agree that if you're not confident in yourself or your party as a whole, you shouldn't force out damage so you can be prepared for healing.

[Tzain]

PS - There is an Internal Global CD of about 1.33 seconds (or something like that). Meaning, no two skills, whether they are on tied to the GCD or not, can be activated faster than 1.33s apart. This includes Cleric Stance > Aero I, and Aero II > Cleric stance.
You would need to it that macro twice (1.33s apart) to fire both skills, even though the macro was told to fire both off, it couldn't because it was on the IGCD.

Hope that sheds light on some of the various concerns expressed.

Much obliged friend.
So what we'd be looking at might be

/ac "cleric stance" <me>
/wait 1.5 (since I don't think you can specify 1.33)
/ac "aero II" <tt>
/wait X (The casting time of Aero II+ whatever it takes to not clip it)
/ac aero <tt>
/wait 1.5 (I assume since this is instant, the same rule applies)
/ac "Cleric Stance" <me>
/dance <me>
/poke <t>

The last two are for Liadan

[Ehayte]

This can be show easily on PLD when you use Rage of Halone > Spirits Within. If you use it too soon, it'll cause SW to either cut off halfway and therefore not apply the damage and silence effect, or to just not work at all. Cleric Stance follows this same formula.

Not true - RoH > SW is actually a better example of this, as RoH is a longer animation time than SW. If I pop SW while good ol' Ehayte Feytes is still swinging wildly with the Rage of Halone, I will certainly cut my 2.1ish second animation short, but the damage and effect will still absolutely apply, just after the animation would have finished if the character model not been interrupted by Spirits Within. Activating another skill while something else is animating will not cancel that skill/spell. In summary:

- It is true that abilities do not apply their effects until after their animation time has expired after the action has been triggered.
- Triggering another skill that stops your character model from finish a previous skill's animation will NOT cancel that skill's effects, it will just cancel your character appearing to take that action.

[Ehayte]

So what we'd be looking at might be

I'm not sure of 1.33 - it could be as high as 1.8. You will have to do some experimenting. The other thing I would caution against is the fact that you are locking yourself in for 6-7 seconds to take this action. If you need to pop a heal in the interim, you will be limited by your macro firing off stuff that may no longer be ideal. I personally value flexibility over convenience, so I limit the macros I use to really just save space on my X-hotbar.

But, yes, that should work, as long as those /wait's are accurate. Dancing and Poking included - as /poke is NOT on the IGCD : D