The markets, stalls, price listing and undercutting. (A suggestion)

[Azurymber]

I can sum this up pretty easily.
Don't be greedy.

greed is good, it leads to everyone getting more of what they actually want

[Peregrine]

Again, people don't undercut because of price. They undercut because they want their shit to sell first. I highly doubt the guy who just undercut my garnet rings by 1k cares about that 1k gil. 1k in this game is trash, it's like the 1p change you get at the shop in real life. He just wanted his to sell first. As a result I've had to drop mine by 2k. Not because I feel his are too expensive, but in retaliation for his childish game of "me me me please can i go first!1!". My mule will be sat by the wards waiting for him to do it again to respond quickly and efficiently.

Garnet rings should be worth less than the cost of a raw garnet on the market. The value of it has already been spent elsewhere. Garnet rings are a SP grind material, not a desired finished product. As such, it's unreasonable to expect them to hold any economic weight.

I sell NQ T2 rings on the street for NPC selling price, and if I don't get any takers they go to NPC. That's what they're worth. 5k.

A garnet ring is a waste of a sales slot. That's why people put them up for nothing. They just want them GONE because they have more to grind out.

People who whine about undercutters are players who insisited on killing FFXI mobs for 300 sp every 4 minutes instead of crushing mobs for 150 sp every 50 seconds simply because the first number is bigger.

It's about SP per hour. It's about gil per day. I sold a +1 heavy crowsbeak hammer, the endgame blacksmith hammer, for 500k. Took 3 weeks on the market for a new crafter to level into it. That's not efficient. Only reason I still do it is because it's garbage to me and I was going for a +2 or 3 for myself.

You can sell a pair of garnet rings a week at what you think you deserve, or you can sell a dozen a week at ridiculously low prices. Only reason a R50 goldsmither is even still making T2 rings is to play the futures HQ market, and in that case even more reason that NQ rings should be worth nothing in this market.

Crafters can't sit there and expect to compete with a guy grinding on garnet rings for his last two levels of goldsmithing. Don't pick fights you can never win.

[Aveline]

Each craft has different grinding synths. So your example may hold weight for goldsmiths, but not really anyone else.

And to the person who said making gil is easy if you just farm all the mats and make everything from scratch... as an armorer that is actually a huge waste of time and elemental shards. Yes, I could gather up everything needed for a haubergeon and then craft ingots >> wire >> rings until I have enough rings, then turn those rings into sheets, then switch to weaver and synth the cloth (after I gather the cotton bols and turn them into thread, of course, since we're being thrifty!) then switch to leatherworker and turn a farmed dodo skin into leather, then into leather straps, and finally synth the entire thing... only to be undercut by 5,000 gil as soon as I put the finished product up.

It's funny because, on another forum not long ago, people were complaining that crafters aren't making and selling enough gear. Want to know why? Because it is not worth my time and my materials to craft a bunch of armor to sell at below cost just so some random person can have a cheap piece of gear. I'll gladly craft for people on request, but the market system as-is does not make any sense, and certainly isn't a good investment of game time.

People don't undercut out of the goodness of their hearts--they undercut so they can get theirs sold first. Most crafters aren't trying to be greedy about their prices s, they're trying to make it worth their time.

As for market stalls, those things are awesome in design, and really bring a lot of life to the wards if they are used. Sadly, they aren't, because why should we? It costs extra money just to put up our stuff in a stall that will only be around for 24 hours, and it's not like it draws any greater attention to our goods since people simply use the search system and hunt for the pink stars.

It would be nice if S-E figured out a way to reward people for using the stalls. It would also be nice if people actually took pride in the stuff they crafted and stopped undercutting their fellow crafters just to make a quick buck. If you want it out of your inventory so badly, NPC the junk and leave the market to the people who actually care.

[darkstarpoet1]

Each craft has different grinding synths. So your example may hold weight for goldsmiths, but not really anyone else.

And to the person who said making gil is easy if you just farm all the mats and make everything from scratch... as an armorer that is actually a huge waste of time and elemental shards. Yes, I could gather up everything needed for a haubergeon and then craft ingots >> wire >> rings until I have enough rings, then turn those rings into sheets, then switch to weaver and synth the cloth (after I gather the cotton bols and turn them into thread, of course, since we're being thrifty!) then switch to leatherworker and turn a farmed dodo skin into leather, then into leather straps, and finally synth the entire thing... only to be undercut by 5,000 gil as soon as I put the finished product up.

It's funny because, on another forum not long ago, people were complaining that crafters aren't making and selling enough gear. Want to know why? Because it is not worth my time and my materials to craft a bunch of armor to sell at below cost just so some random person can have a cheap piece of gear. I'll gladly craft for people on request, but the market system as-is does not make any sense, and certainly isn't a good investment of game time.

People don't undercut out of the goodness of their hearts--they undercut so they can get theirs sold first. Most crafters aren't trying to be greedy about their prices s, they're trying to make it worth their time.

As for market stalls, those things are awesome in design, and really bring a lot of life to the wards if they are used. Sadly, they aren't, because why should we? It costs extra money just to put up our stuff in a stall that will only be around for 24 hours, and it's not like it draws any greater attention to our goods since people simply use the search system and hunt for the pink stars.

It would be nice if S-E figured out a way to reward people for using the stalls. It would also be nice if people actually took pride in the stuff they crafted and stopped undercutting their fellow crafters just to make a quick buck. If you want it out of your inventory so badly, NPC the junk and leave the market to the people who actually care.

that's why in this game it pays to be a jack of all trades, but a master of none. in other words you are more valuable and make tons more gil if you have multiple r30's before going and specializing in a class. i waited until i got all crafts to30 before attempting to cap one. sure it is expensive and time consuming, but i make millions a week when i even have the urge to craft and put items in my bazaar. quite frankly, once you get over 20 million all of my crafting has been to toss to people and rarely selling anything. you're more likely to see me toss any item in game than you are to see me sell one.

[Peregrine]

If you want it out of your inventory so badly, NPC the junk and leave the market to the people who actually care.

Not how the world works. You don't get 15 bucks an hour for washing dishes, whether you care and are passionate about it or not. You honestly don't deserve to make a profit off haubies if you buy the materials off the market and just mash them together. Anyone can do that. NQs should always be sold at a loss.

You're figuring that you, the crafter, is worth way more than you actually are. The materials are worth more than you are. That's why your final product is worth less than the starting materials--because you've spent a chunk of their worth and generated a product that doesn't recoup that loss of value.

Caring has nothing to do with it. Undercutters are doing this game a service. Selling things for what they're worth instead of trying to be wannabe OPEC members.

Again, "The immigrants are taking our jobs" doesn't even fly in the real world. Much less so in a MMO.

[Xenor]

isn't any market about moving your product as fast and efficiently as possible? it doesn't matter if one sell makes me 10k if by lowering the price i can sell 5x as many of that product and still make 10k profit. if i can gather and produce the item cheaper than it is being sold and make gil while skilling up you're right i am going to sell it for less.

But you aren't going to sell it faster by undercutting me because I'm going to come along and undercut you and camp the wards with my alt waiting for you to come back. If you list it at the same price then you'll have a chance at selling some and average as many sales as me rather than forcing me to take every sale infront of you through your rude behaviour. I never undercut someone who lists something the same price as me, even if it puts their name above mine. If you've only got a few of an item and I've got a stack and you just want rid of it because it's not your market that's cool with me too. People will pay the extra for convenience if they want more than a few.

Garnet rings should be worth less than the cost of a raw garnet on the market. The value of it has already been spent elsewhere. Garnet rings are a SP grind material, not a desired finished product. As such, it's unreasonable to expect them to hold any economic weight.

I sell NQ T2 rings on the street for NPC selling price, and if I don't get any takers they go to NPC. That's what they're worth. 5k.

A garnet ring is a waste of a sales slot. That's why people put them up for nothing. They just want them GONE because they have more to grind out.

People who whine about undercutters are players who insisited on killing FFXI mobs for 300 sp every 4 minutes instead of crushing mobs for 150 sp every 50 seconds simply because the first number is bigger.

It's about SP per hour. It's about gil per day. I sold a +1 heavy crowsbeak hammer, the endgame blacksmith hammer, for 500k. Took 3 weeks on the market for a new crafter to level into it. That's not efficient. Only reason I still do it is because it's garbage to me and I was going for a +2 or 3 for myself.

You can sell a pair of garnet rings a week at what you think you deserve, or you can sell a dozen a week at ridiculously low prices. Only reason a R50 goldsmither is even still making T2 rings is to play the futures HQ market, and in that case even more reason that NQ rings should be worth nothing in this market.

Crafters can't sit there and expect to compete with a guy grinding on garnet rings for his last two levels of goldsmithing. Don't pick fights you can never win.

You have a point about T2 rings, however I don't value them all equally. Garnet and Amethyst rings have always held a lot more value than the other four. I wouldn't even waste my time making the others unless someone wanted one. I almost skilled up on them too but due to the cost of electrum I decided silver franciscas was better. Still surprised you aren't doing them. Red coral breastpin is a good alternative too which I didn't know about back then. But yeah I have NPCed Heliodor and Peridot rings in my time as well.

Believe it or not but Garnet and Amethyst rings still sell reasonable well for 50-70k in the wards while HQs can get you 300k. That's why I still make them. HQ rate isn't too terrible. But they're just a filler slot on my retainers because I had nothing else to put there. Those two rings aren't the trash you make them out to be lol. I don't think it's people skilling up on them trying to list them in the wards because I don't see the market flood you'd expect.

The majority of people mine Halatali for gold which results in Heliodor rings or Iron Lake for iron which results in Aquamarine rings. Peridots have always been worthless. Very few people decide to mine up in Dragonhead and Treespeak isn't common due to the problems with the goblin NM so Amethyst, Garnet and to some extent Goshenite rings have held some value. There's often times when there's none of those rings in the wards. That's when I come along. Others have caught on now however so I'll be going back out of that market. Got to be opportunistic with these things.

[Punainen]

The problem here is that this is a good idea for sellers, but a terrible idea for buyers... When I think about wanting to SELL things, I like this idea...but when I think about wanting to BUY things, I hate it. See the dilemma here?

[Peregrine]

There are always amethyst and garnet raws on the market. Ripping and flipping doesn't really deserve very much profit at all. Again, NQ amethyst and garnet rings should be worth less than the cost of a raw amethyst and garnet. If the market were adequately supplied and perfused, they would be. Only by taking advantage of imperfusion, vanity, or stupidity can you turn a profit on the profitless.

Honestly people trying to scrounge as much as they can should thank undercutters. For every one product they figure is actually worth the time it takes to sell it, there are ten that they don't and they're the reason you can essentially treat most gear like a consumable as you level what you want. If everyone were penny pinchers, everything would be annoyingly priced instead of priced to move. I want rank 30 **** priced to move.

Price gougers just care too much about money, so they call everyone else undercutters.

If I intend to sell a lance I've outgrown, and there are 4 of them on the market at 170-200k, I'm putting mine up for 130k. No offense, but I don't give a ****. It's called a USED lance. I'm not bothering with you or it any more. I want it out of my inventory and gone to the very next lance buyer. I don't care if that's "your" market. For that one lance, it's mine.

[TheVedis]

If I intend to sell a lance I've outgrown, and there are 4 of them on the market at 170-200k, I'm putting mine up for 130k. No offense, but I don't give a ****. It's called a USED lance. I'm not bothering with you or it any more. I want it gone.

if i saw those prices id put mine up for 169k lol
get the most for it while still being lowest priced, why not

[Zuellni]

I find it sad that so many are adamant about profit. You'd think since a game isn't real life, that people would be at least somewhat less concerned about money and wealth, especially since there really isn't even anything worth buying yet. I also don't see why so many have to view crafter jobs as a "merchant" job. I see it as more of a support or service job myself.

I don't sell items too often, but when I do, I do it to distribute my items to people who need them. Gil is of no concern to me so I have no problem selling a full set of gear for a gil per piece as long as the items get to someone who needs them. I imagine I will continue doing so until there's a Salvation Army donation box set up in the cities.