Endgame too challenging and teamwork based (Hear me out)!

[sasakusaku]

I know it sucks to feel left out but there are plenty of other things to do in the game, level an Alt do some crafting,etc...

Haha.../falls off chair laughing.

No thank you, none of those things are fun. Well, if yall need me...I be helping newbs in WP/AK/Ifirit/Garuada until 2.1. That's if I don't go totally insane with boredom that is (which seems likely).

[Razla]

I did the content fine, it took a lot of tries for COIL 1 and 2, but I did it. Yes I enjoy a challenge, and skillful games, but Skill reliant on yourself. .

That's the problem. Skill reliant on yourself = solo game. When you are a playing a teamwork oriented game, your success depends not only on you but on the skill of others. IMO, this game is a lot more forgiving than FFXI (at least around 2008/2009). Even in the lower levels, one person's small mistake could and often would cause a party wipe. And this would be after it took you
several hours to get an exp party together.

[Rutaq]

Duty finder is a double edged sword.

Honestly it probably does more harm than good. It forces a bunch of strangers together and trusts that they know what they are doing, have the right gear, are willing to communicate, etc... Given a handful of CM PUGs over the last week I can tell ya there are lot of nasty inconsiderate people playing FFXIV:ARR.

In the old MMO days these people would have been left behind and shunned by Guilds but in the new age of casual solo lameness they are pushed through the system, leveled up and then pollute the game from the top down.

I wish they never added it, then people would be forced to find a good FC early on which would make their gaming lives much better and more social...

[Rutaq]

...
Do we make MMOs more accessible to the average player or do we make them more frustrating so that only a smaller % of the playerbase can complete it? ...

Given the large number of casual, solo play, easy mode MMOs on the market... I would vote for " make one more frustrating so only a small % of the playerbase can complete it."

Why do games have be designed to cater to the lowest common denominator ? A social game of tic tac toe can be fun but does that mean that we can never play anything more complex or challenging because it would be too tough for my 3 year old niece ?

[Litre]

What a whine thread, if you want all content to be attainable go play one of the many great single player games, they have amazing content, and u don't even need to spend time putting a group together to do.

But FFXIV is a MMO, it's a constant battle between developers and players to ensure there is enough content. Assume they did what you suggested, make content easier and more forgiving, then we'd all be walking around in top-end gear with nothing to do and then we'd move on to the next game. I suggest you be honest with yourself, why are you in coil if you just want to have fun? Is it just to play new content because the current content is boring? Or is it the gear, because you want that Allagan armor to wear around town? That gear should be hard to get or it'd mean nothing.


If you're just bored and out of content, your point is valid, there should be more content and that's why Crystal Tower is coming out and will be a bit easier than coil. That raid suits ur purpose, it's an easier more forgiving dungeon. But don't ask for coil to be dumbed down, these two dungeons cater to two different crowds.

Yoshi-P already stated, Titan HM is supposed to frustrate people, it's supposed to be the hardest thing you can possibly beat in a PUG, and it's supposed to push people to form static groups - and that's why coil is not on DF, it's almost impossible with a PUG. These dungeons exist and are designed this way for their own reasons, not the reasons you seem to be looking for.

[Melisenna]

If I wanted to play a game that rewards me for being sub par maybe I'd play wow and go back to being the best on there without any challenge.

But you can't go back to a game you likely never played, doing content you've never done. The hardest content is only cleared by the top few % of the playerbase before they nerf it months later to make it more accessible. But even the nerfs are generally only 10% or so, which opens it up to a slightly bigger range of players. The vast majority however will never see the top heroic content until the next expansion rolls around.

[Litre]

Ya a lot of FFXIV players are pretty full of themselves, believe it or not, Titan dodging mechanics pale in comparison to what you'd encounter in many harder WoW raids. There's a market for content at Titan HM difficulty level+ for groups of 10+ players in WoW and here, please try to let that sink in. The satisfaction from executing a perfect skilled run with 7 other skilled players including teamwork and mechanics is a far greater achievement than by yourself. Only a smaller percentage of people should be able to achieve it, otherwise it'll water down that achievement.

[neverendingxsin]

[Zikh]

Dumbing down content so "everyone can experience it" is the biggest mistake you can make in an MMO. If you can solo everything, what is the point of the whole online thing? Socialize and find other people who share your skill level. You can then reach your own limits within the game or try to improve.

The Duty Finder truly is an abomination and it should be removed. It feeds the ADHD kids' mentality of "EVERYTHING FOR ME, NOW!" and "I'M PAYING THE SAME PRICE, I'M ENTITLED TO THE SAME THINGS!". Without it people would have to get more connected and the game world would have more life in it.

[Wingless_Seraph]

Achievement is a wispy word and one player's achievement can't be quantified against another, so why would you push that on people and argue for it through difficulty? So if I have an FC with 7 other skilled players with low latency, good PC specs, and good reflexes, the "difficulty" you perceive becomes very low to us. Is our feeling of achievement lessened compared to another who had to scrape and claw their way through the content using the Duty Finder?

I personally don't try to compare my personal situation, group of mates, or server community to an achievement that gives me some warm fuzzy feeling. What I do look at is content that can be enjoyed by the majority without major frustration, and not put on a pedestal by the few elites who have to be held on high with their glowing stat sticks. What is difficult is subjective in these MMOs and it's mainly a matter of time and the amount of human bodies one can amass together to perform a given role.

I beat Titan the first time with a Revenant PUG, can I say I gained more satisfaction than a FC of relatively good players who have years of playing together in various MMOs because it was more challenging for my group of 8? I can't knock a person's satisfaction for playing the game the way they like, but I can tell you my perspective and that is: I enjoy the game from 1-50, easy content, hard content, it's all the same to me. Getting my first relic was no different 5-mins after the fact than getting my first Foestriker gear from Satascha at level 15. When I helped others get their first relic, I was happy for them. And that's where I feel players have this massive disconnect. They associate achievement with low accessibility. Being the few, the elite, the proud to claim the top of Mount Everest while basking in the warmth of the glory. While I, who is just as skilled and capable of climbing Mount Everest would like for others to see the world from that altitude as well.

To me, putting money and Dev time towards content that a small % will ever see is a poor usage of resources. Currently, the entire Titan HM thing, though not at fault on its own has caused some interesting things in the community. You have multiple FCs selling Titan wins to people. Last I saw on Leviathan was one FC claiming 300+ people satisfied, and that's not counting the other FCs who have done the same. So what was once a firm "gate" has now become a means for those with the ability to beat Titan with 7 players to become extremely wealthy off those without the patience or care for the "achievement or satisfaction." I won't even get into the growing number of groups being put together with requirements to have a Relic and in some cases a Relic +1 to do AK, CM, Prae, which further pushes desperation onto the unfortunate players who are blunting against Titan HM in despair. As a member of the playerbase I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand, the mercenary aspect of it from an entrepreneurial perspective is ingenious; the other hand I feel shame for those who would profit from the desperation of others instead of doing what I feel a healthy "community" should do: Help others beat Titan by joining those PUGs or aiding others. And some people do just that. It's been kind of rare for me to see a Titan PUG without atleast one relic user in the group, lately.

In the end, I sit somewhere in the middle between making content accessible and so challenging, through whatever means, that only a small % will see the content. What really comes to my mind is why are people throwing around the word "challenging" in an MMO genre that lives and breathes on repetition? The 10th week of Turn 1-4 coil that is completed in under two hours isn't a challenge at all to the static 8 or good FC. It's a serving of repetiton of stale tactics and battle plans for loot. I guess in my mind, I really don't care how a person plays their game as long as overall frustration is within a healthy parameter. The fanfare of a cheer after hours of butting heads against a difficult encounter doesn't erase the hours of frustration that preceded it. But that's me.

And I'm not asking to make things EASY or EZmode like most people will claim in their extreme responses to derail a good discussion. People should be allowed to want some middle-ground and it shouldn't be defined by the personal satisfaction of the tiny few. I think, currently, FF14 does a good job with end game gear (Which is really what the vast majority of players truly care about) by giving Allagan to the raiders who can do Coil and AF2 for Myths to those who can't and even being good options for those inbetween and on both sides of the equation. I hope they continue this trend, where the joy of raiding is simply to raid, while gaining some reward for it, and those who would like to solo or randomly group up with others can still work towards current high ilevel loot.

The funny thing would be if "Extreme" mode was added to the primals but without incentive besides some "Achievement" unlock on your character. You'd get a good indicator of those who actually want to be challenged for the sake of it versus those who just want to be in the small % to be envied as they stand in towns or outposts with their weapons out to show their shinies.