[dev1058] Say no to the hate meter.

[Roaran]

I waited a bit before I made my first gut reaction....

At the end of the day, I would rather pay more attention to the monster itself, watching for signs and clues that might hint at its behavior than stare at a bar that tells me how to play.

I would also like to point out WHY aggro bars are now common in MMOs. In World of Warcraft they were an addon that was created in order for players to make up for a defeciency in the game itself. WoW offered no clues as to the relative aggro of a monster and its combatants. Various programs were created in order to solve this.

Creating a feature like this is a step back in game development, as rather developers are simply compensating for something rather than solving the underlying problem.

[Jahagwa]

In my opinion I don't see many problems as to why we can't have a hate meter so as long has the target has associated behaviors. When ranking up a job, in a sense you are training in that profession. Having a player learning the behavior of various targets while having a hate meter would teach players much how the game works. However! NM's, Boss Battles or anything else in that category should have the hate meter in a '???' form or just blank all together. This to me would force the player to use what they have learned to defeat it.

Just to clarify, what I mean by behaviors, the target should animate with stances and abilities that are focused on whoever has the hate.

[Reika]

We should hope by now they know we like things to be toggle-able on and off....

[Lienn]

We should hope by now they know we like things to be toggle-able on and off....

Indeed. It not only adds versatibility to game but also will please greeks and troyans.

[RemnantWolf]

I was excited for the hate meter at first but now I feel like it could take away a lot of the fun of battles. I always was good at games where I fought the computer as the computer was predictably, but I was really bad once I played against people online as I never knew what they were going to do. Making mobs predictable is a step backwards in terms of difficulty.

But I can also see the side that says that the meter will add a lot of strategy to the game for some. I think there may be an easy compromise for this.

They had mentioned a new "materia" system for the crafters. If the aggro gauge was made into an upgrade for the armor then there would be the ability to use it for those who want it, but rewards for those who don't. Because, as everyone who has played a lot of MMO's knows, giving equipment an ability like that means that the armor is generally weaker stat wise. That way those who need the meter have it, but those who are really good at keeping and understanding hate without the meter get better stats from the armor.

[XiaoMaomi]

I vote yes to the Hate meter!

[MeowyWowie]

Adding a toggle is pointless. This isn't a matter of immersion or aesthetics. This changes how people play their jobs. A toggle will do nothing to counter what we're concerned about.

[Preypacer]

So tanks spamming voke when they could be doing something more useful = skill? Could've fooled me.

This will lead to more strategic planning of skill/spell usage by everyone in the party, and that's just using the current battle system.

Here's what I don't get.... People are talking about how a hate meter "allows party to strategize"... as though they couldn't without it.

In FFXI - even well before Windower was introduced with its add-on hate meter... people strategized and learned how far they could push it with the DD and when they had to pull back. Healers learned to balance HoTs with direct heals in order to keep the HP from falling without taking aggro.

Players with that kind of experience often provided tips to others who also benefitted from them and passed them on to other players.

It was all learned organically and it was always a blast when that knowledge was brought to bear, such as in a longer-than-usual and difficult encounter where that kind of knowledge really made the difference between a party wiping or succeeding.

Some of the most epic and memorable encounters I've had that were near wipes were won because the players brought their skills and knowledge of aggro and aggro management to bear, and coordinated effectively to turn things around. We didn't have a meter telling us how ticked off the mob was at a given person. We'd developed an intuition for it over having fought a given enemy a number times and learning their behavior, etc.

We communicated, we adapted and we overcame. No meters necessary.

Adding a hate meter completely removes the dynamic of that. It removes the balancing act because the player no longer has to feel out how things are flowing, because it's spelled out for them right on the screen. All they need to do is follow the rising or falling hate % and respond accordingly. -snore-

It's just one more thing that removes the player from the game by doing it for them.

So... again, I can understand people preferring a hate meter because they don't want to have to pay that much attention.. but to argue that it "introduces strategy to it" as though it doesn't without one just rings very hollow to me.

In most cases when I've seen people pushing for the use of hate meters is because it provided one more safe-guard against a group wipe and helped ensure a victory; just like "having the optimal build", "following the best guides", "having the optimal party/raid setup", etc.

All those things are used to eliminate strategy and challenge from the game and replace it with predictability and color-by-the-numbers routines. To me, that makes the game less interesting... not more.


I happen to agree with the OP. If SE's goal is to make combat more challenging and require more skill, then I would definitely promote players learning and honing a skill such as tracking or maintaining aggro-management... without a meter telling them where things stand.

In my opinion, MMOs have gone way too far in providing "helpers" and "add-ons" and such that are designed solely to remove the need for players to learn and master certain gameplay elements themselves. They're a crutch, just like the OP stated. As a result, I also believe players - generally speaking - have become far too dependent on them.

[Chezen]

Abriael, I agree with you on many things, but I just can't agree on this one.

I understand the point the naysayers are making, and personally, I'm right there with you on it. Being good at what I do certainly appeals to me. But the hate meter is still a tool, not a crutch. Would you look down on a logger for using a chainsaw instead of on ax? Do you want a doctor to cut out a "tumor" that he just "felt" rather than x-rayed? Technology that helps people be better at their jobs isn't necessarily a bad thing. (Technology that literally does someone's job altogether is another story, like auto-pilot :/ )

If someone wants to use hate meters as a tool so they can do their job more efficiently, who has the right to tell them how to enjoy the game? Not everyone can be Luke Skywalker; some will be better off using their instruments. If you don't want to use them, you don't have to.

As for people "requiring" hate meters, no one can make anyone do anything they don't want to. If someone "required" addons, I'd just either ignore it or move on to a different group. It would also be as easy to make a LS that requires everything to be toggled off as much as one that requires all toggles on.

[popdai]

Hate meter is for noobs! That's all.