The definitive WAR answer STR vs VIT... and stat caps

[Ninjiitstu]

As to needing both Overpower and Flash, I seriously have to wonder why the hell you would ever need 3-4 uses *per fight* of a single, non-damaging AoE that provides no debuff. While I haven't been to Coils yet, I find it hard to come up with a situation where you actually *need* Flash, considering how little WAR actually gets to use it.

Again, Go to coils before you give your opinion on what you need or don't need as a WAR. I do appreciate the math though, despite you still being wrong.

http://valk.dancing-mad.com/?page_id=231

4x. Thanks for playing.

[Kitru]

Actually by your own math WAR does more damage.

One of the major things that people bring up is that WAR does more damage, enough to make their inferior damage soaking capability justified. Even if WAR does *slightly* more damage or enmity (which is what happens in the "lone" scenarios), the difference is so minute that it doesn't make one whit of a difference. People have made varying claims that WAR does anywhere from 30-100% more damage than a PLD does. That's blatantly untrue, which is what my math was intending to demonstrate. Honestly, the difference between the two is small enough that player skill has a greater impact than class choice.

It is not until a WAR is in the group that a PLD's damage sees an advantage because of the Storm's Eye debuff. WHICH is a bit of a grey area....
Honestly it is not really fair to give PLD full credit for a DPS increase gained from an ability used by another class. Generally if x job provides the debuff than that job gets credit. So you can just as easily say that 'extra' damage a PLD does because of Storm's Eye belongs to the WAR NOT the PLD.

The basic reasoning I used is that, if you're bringing double WAR, you're not getting that additional damage. The WAR buffs its own damage and tangentially improves the PLDs, much like DRG improves itself and tangentially improves BRD. It is, admittedly, a bit of a fuzzy area, but I stand by how I labelled it, especially since the WAR doesn't actually benefit in any of the tangential ways from the added damage afforded to a PLD whereas the PLD itself does.

And a little more on the topic, I don't know if you are unaware or simply find it inefficient. But WAR is able to go in and out of Defiance while in combat. What does this mean for WAR DPS?

PLD can do this just as easily with Sword Oath. Since neither Sword Oath nor Shield Oath require any build up or CD usage, stance dancing is, honestly, an advantage of the PLD.

It means once a minute a WAR can turn on Defiance, pop Infuriate, let loose Inner-Beast and turn off Defiance. To add a little icing on that cake, Internal release also shares the 60s cooldown. So every minute that can be a 300 potency attack with a 30% bonus to crit chance.

The 25% damage debuff from Defiance would negate any real advantage afforded by the higher potency of Inner Beast. You're turning what is a 300 potency attack into the equivalent of a 225 potency attack. Since it's only available once every 24 GCDs and the average base potency per GCD for non-Defiance WAR is 213.85, all that you're affording yourself is an additional .464 potency per GCD.

And also means every 180s a WAR can effectively turn on Defiance, pop Infuriate and then Unchained > Berserk, combo as normal and Inner Beast and turn off Defiance.

This is the only way that dancing into Defiance could be useful, mainly because you're directly countering the -25% damage penalty which renders the previous use of Inner Beast so irrelevant. Of course, in this case, it's the 72 GCD pulling you down: the per GCD advantage of Inner Beast in this context is 86.15; once every 72 GCDs means that it would provide an extra 1.20 base potency per GCD. Once again, largely irrelevant, especially considering the windup and CD resource usage required.

And on the topic of AoE damage.

Outside of tank stance, yes, a WAR is going to do more damage than a PLD, but I've never claimed that PLD and WAR have equal AoE *damage*, nor was I remarking at all on DPS stance AoEs. I specifically referenced AoE as it pertains to tanking, which is much less focused on damage and instead focuses almost entirely on enmity generation.

Yes, Overpower is expensive. But you act like a WAR has to spam it to the high heavens to compete with PLD.

No, I don't. I act like Overpower has an inordinate cost that, even if you use it only 2-3 times, has a drastic effect upon your ability to deal damage down the line thanks explicitly to that high resource cost. Flash, from a long term DPS/enmity standpoint, not just free; because it costs no TP, it actually provides a net gain of 50 TP per GCD, which extends your effective resource time 3.75 GCDs. Every time you use Flash, you're buying yourself more than an entire Halone combo's worth of net TP. Each use of Overpower provides a drain of over ~7 GCDs worth of single target TP consumption. When the total burn time from full to resource dry is ~76 for each, Overpower consumes ~9% of your time to deal optimal DPS every time you use it. Using Overpower even *once* has a massive detrimental effect upon your ability to deal damage. Unless you have regular TP recovery periods, it's going to screw you over hard.

If you include Maim, OP has a potency around 144. PLD's CoS has a potency of 220-250. That means all a WAR has to do is use OP just twice every 25 seconds. Then you add in the buffs and the fact that because of the cooldown PLD can only fit two CoS in FoF and WAR can fit... roughly 7 into Berserk. And if they are taking advantage of their stance, every minute they can do the above stance dance but instead of using IB just pop off Internal released buffed Cyclones.

First off, if you're going to bring up buffs, bring up all of them. Maim is factored into the end multipliers. Defiance hits Overpower harder than Shield Oath hits CoS and Fight or Flight provides more for CoS than Berserk does for Overpower. If you're going to bring up direct comparisons, do it correctly and include all factors on both sides.

Secondly, your comparison of CS and FoF to Overpower and Berserk is monumentally one sided. Using Overpower 7 times in a row is going to very nearly bottom out a WAR (At 80 TP net loss/GCD, you just burned through more than half of your total resources even at full) so, unless you just don't care about the damage you deal 2 minutes from now, you just cost yourself a crapton of damage output. Overpower's limitation is *specifically* its resource cost. Comparing it to an ability that has no cost but is on a CD is *obviously* going to create a massive artificial advantage for one over the other. You're not even *trying* to compare the two equally.

Since you like math I have a fairly simple word problem for you:

And I have a counterargument: how many DPS would be able to pull off of either a WAR or a PLD blowing their respective loads to maximize AoE enmity generation? Redundant enmity generation is just that: redundant. It doesn't matter how large your enmity cushion it; it only matters that you have *more* enmity. The WAR you refer to in your "word problem" would be screwing itself over because of resource costs. Sure, it blew its load nice and early to make itself look fancy, but, 2 minutes later, it's going to be sitting around doing nothing because it doesn't have the TP.

Once again, I feel compelled to point out that nowhere have I ever said that PLD does more or even *as much* damage as a WAR is capable of in the short term if that WAR is willing to sacrifice performance later on. People seem to get focused upon my statement that WAR and PLD have balanced AoE capability without actually understanding what I'm saying. WAR has the ability to put out a lot of AoE damage (still nothing compared to even a bad DPS, which is another one of the things that people continually forget about; even OT damage pales in comparison to a *real* DPS's) in a short confines at great cost, if it so chooses, but, over the long term, the PLD will do both more damage and generate more AoE enmity because Overpower is just too damned expensive.

CoS generates the same enmity as a use of Overpower for free. Flash acts as a substantial net gain on TP whereas Overpower represents a massive net loss. To match AoE DPS, a WAR need only use 2 Overpowers every 10 GCDs, but that comes at the cost of increasing their TP usage by roughly 100% so that WAR ends up having slightly more than half of the operable time as a PLD.

Of course threat wise arguing which is better between either class is just too derp-mode for me.

Arguing about AoE damage dealing is just as derp-mode, especially when you ignore the monumental delayed costs incurred by Overpower. The DPS provided by a tank is nothing when compared against a DPS's. Try comparing what a WAR or PLD can do, even when temp buffed, to any other job out there: a healer will blow you out of the water with Holy/DoT+Bane, especially since healer gear actually improves DPS efficiently whereas tank gear is mostly focused on it tangentially.

It's just like arguing that bringing a tank that deals 10% more damage than the other one is really providing all that much when tanks account for all of 10% of total DPS on a good day. You're basically arguing that a 1% improvement in total DPS is going to make or break *anything*.

The only thing that matters is that Tank DPS and enmity, both AoE and ST, is close enough that there is no appreciable advantage to bringing either, as far as damage/enmity is concerned. Mitigation is most definitely a lopsided construct that favors PLD heavily.

[Kitru]

http://valk.dancing-mad.com/?page_id=231

4x. Thanks for playing.

That lists the tank stance enmity modifiers as 2x and the Defiance damage debuff modifier as .65. Neither of those is true and they've been tested numerous times on live servers. Old numbers are old.

[Leiron]

*is hot for Kit*

[HiirNoivl]

I made a 3 part Blog post about STR and VIT (as well as other stats)

You can read it here. But I'll post it here because it is relevant.

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...26/blog/263765

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There is a controversy about WAR stats that really shouldn't exist. Should a Warrior Tank Stack VIT? Or STR? What about DEX? Well, hopefully I can clear the air and help people stat their WAR a bit better.

On the side of VIT are folks who want to get as much HP as possible. They say that a WAR can't survive unless he has a huge pool of HP. They don't view self-healing as something as important as being able to take the biggest hits in the game. They cite as references the damage that they can take in Coil. They are the vast majority of WARs. "Damage dealt as a tank is not nearly as important as the damage taken as a tank." is their motto.

In the other corner are the STR stacked WAR. They hail that their self-cures are great! They mitigate damage by killing the mob faster that they can survive and not be a drag on the mages. They say that even with stacking STR, they don't suffer that much in HP loss. Their enmity is unbreakable and their attacks unyielding. "Kill it before it kills you! With self heals, you have as much HP as the mob you're fighting!" Is their motto.

So who's right?

The truth is they both are.

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Vitality -- HP in numbers
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To start with, let's look at Vitality stacking, the most common stat allocation of WAR tanks. It's easy to see why it's so popular. With enough HP, you don't have to worry that much about Self-heals. The WHMs will be able to fill your HP so long as you mitigate in other ways, like having a good Parry-rate and dodging. On Titan, they are happy they can actually survive the multi-hits before during and after Mountain Buster with plenty of HP to spare. It's hard to see any downside to this. The worst tank ever is a dead tank.

But that doesn't mean there aren't any downsides. WARs that are VIT stacked contribute barely more Damage dealt than a PLD with similar stats. Worse, they aren't actually mitigating any damage with the self-heals, which are a paltry amount even if they tried. They are little more than meat shields...and poor meatshields at that. They rely only on Thrill of Battle to increase their HP pool and Infuriate to boost the heals received from mages. All other self heals are less and not really worth using at all.

This puts pressure on the mages to continually fill a growing HP pool that's getting big bites taken out of it with no mitigation at all. It's easy to see the disadvantages to this and why so many people prefer PLD over a VIT-stacked WAR. Stacking Vitality is a pre-emptive way to taking more damage, but in the end it mitigates almost no damage taken.

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Strength -- HP in skill
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Strength stacked WARs take a different approach. Instead of pouring all their stats into the HP pool, they go for the amount of damage dealt and boosted mitigation. Their HP is less so they may dive deep in the the red more often, but their also more easily filled by the mages since they have the same benefits from Wrath V, as well as a sturdy self-heal ability. A Strong WAR will be able hit for more, Crit for more, Parry for more and hold more enmity more quickly as well as kill the mob faster.

But there's an obvious downside as Vitality-stacked WARs (and PLD who are against WAR) will be quick to point out. For STR-stacked WAR, survival is more tenuous. If you have put the majority of your points into STR, you won't break far over 7k even with Thrill of Battle. There's no way you can deal with the hits of Coil and even Titan will sometimes one shot you.

So which to choose?


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Why not both? The Balance of Damage Taken and Damage dealt
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It's clear that both these stats contribute to a WARs survival. That's why I advocate Stacking both STR and VIT as equals. Imagine a set of scales. On one side is damage taken and the other side is damage dealt. You want to max your HP as well as your mitigation. You want to max your damage dealt as well as your survivability. One should not outweigh the other and throw things out of balance. So if you stack Vitality in your allocations, wear jewels that will stack Strength to balance it out. Or make your allocations both STR and VIT... but don't go too far in one direction.

But you can only take this so far. Vitality and Strength are main stats, meaning that if you HQ gear, then they are pre-capped and you can't add any more. In addition, while food can increase VIT there's no food for STR. So you must take other approaches to keep things in balance.

Once you have your VIT and your STR as high as it can be for your item's level, start adding secondary stats for damage dealt and taken. Parry will increase the amount of times you Parry. This syncs with the Strength you have added that increases the amount of damage your parry mitigates. You'll see a nice increase in the amount of damage you can take. Of course, if STR was not your priority you won't see much by the way of damage mitigation from Parry. So you can see the advantage of taking a balanced approach with VIT and STR. If you are currently working stuffing as much VIT as possible onto your gear, you only stand to benefit to adding some STR.

If you add Critical Hit Rate buffs to your stats, you will also see that you will be able to mitigate quite a bit more as well. The Critical Hit Rate on WAR is higher than other classes thanks to Wrath V buff to critical hit rate. The more you crit the more damage you deal and the more you can heal yourself for. This adds to your mitigation but not necessarily to your survivability. If you are a STR stacked WAR, you will only stand to benefit from adding some Vitality before heading to Crit Rate.

What about Skill speed and Dexterity? What about Determination? You can sprinkle these in if you would like, however, all three of these stats are like the dessert at the end of the meal. They all will add something, but not very much. So pick whichever one you like or feel free to skip them completely.

Now that you've added these stats to your gear, add others for situational problems. For example, you need more accuracy for Coil, 470 at the bare minimum (I recommend 475 really). Many Accuracy jewels are quite balanced between STR VIT and Parry so you don't lose much when you switch out accessories to increase your accuracy. Food also can increase accuracy quite a bit but can be expensive if you don't make it yourself.

Hopefully, this gives you some ideas about what you should gear and allocate your WAR and what stats you should be focussing on.

As a summary:

Strength and Vitality in equal or near equal measure.
Parry and Critical Hit Rate next
Accuracy, Skill Speed, Dexterity and Determination last.

[Riffy]

* I have not completed Titan *

I ran it once. That said, I read everything.

I don't agree with all VIT and I don't believe it is the intention of a WAR to go all VIT. I believe this is a sorry excuse but to be empathetic to our healers who already, obviously, have a strenuous role as is. It's been said several times that there is a VIT threshold that we should have and for that, I do agree.

But, tell me, and by that I mean to be enlightened, at what point do we ask ourselves that perhaps the healer(s) and tank(s) shall be in perfect unison. I ask because I've know of 2 Warriors beyond T3. Their healers did not quit on them.

Lastly, I do love all these threads in regards to theory crafting. Anyone that deters these analyses please disregard. They're still reading I assure you.

[EvilHippie]

i am bad at math, can someone simplify this for me? :P

[Ysarel]

i am bad at math, can someone simplify this for me? :P

For leveling 1-50 and doing content where your gear is on par with or above the level of the content at hand, you should allocate your points to STR. If you're undergeared for the content at hand, VIT is a good way to improve your safety margin. If you're doing a bit of both, VIT is the way to go. I do not advocate listening to recommendations to "balance" your stat points as it misses the fact that the stats are not necessarily 1:1 in value and their priorities will vary from situation to situation and person to person. Middle ground arguments are often a logical fallacy; I would argue that this is not one of the exceptions.

[HiirNoivl]

The flawed Logic of Vit stacking is the idea that your HP points make you a better WAR. It adds a lot to your surviving, but in the end a Vit-stacked WAR is just a Terrible PLD. By your very nature, thanks to Enhanced Vitality, adding more VIT will give you a bigger boost to your HP. There's just no reason to stat all the way VIT and lose out on the benefits of STR.

If you're VIT stacked, you only stand to benefit from adding some STR to that.

[Tronic]

The 25% damage debuff from Defiance would negate any real advantage afforded by the higher potency of Inner Beast. You're turning what is a 300 potency attack into the equivalent of a 225 potency attack. Since it's only available once every 24 GCDs and the average base potency per GCD for non-Defiance WAR is 213.85, all that you're affording yourself is an additional .464 potency per GCD.

Inner beast, like the super useful steel cyclone, ignores the defiance damage debuff, and does 300 attack potency damage straight out.

Flash, from a long term DPS/enmity standpoint, not just free; because it costs no TP, it actually provides a net gain of 50 TP per GCD, which extends your effective resource time 3.75 GCDs. Every time you use Flash, you're buying yourself more than an entire Halone combo's worth of net TP. Each use of Overpower provides a drain of over ~7 GCDs worth of single target TP consumption. When the total burn time from full to resource dry is ~76 for each, Overpower consumes ~9% of your time to deal optimal DPS every time you use it. Using Overpower even *once* has a massive detrimental effect upon your ability to deal damage. Unless you have regular TP recovery periods, it's going to screw you over hard.

Aha! So might I imply from this that you're finally warming up to my idea of having flash as a cross class skill? ^_^