Market Boards need to work like FFXI AH

[MistressAthena]

The first one you are asking and implying that what fair is, is the price you would like to sell. Just because you spent a certain amount of time to gather and craft a item it should be marketed at the price you want, while the person who listed under you probably gather and crafted and set the price she/he wants. This scenario to me is not unfair, it's free market economics. The other person values their time less than yours but doesn't make it unfair or wrong. A buyer could easily say you marked yours up by 300%.

Your second comment I have issue with because it requires both buyers and sellers to set prices not just sellers. If sellers set prices then its a monopoly.

This makes no sense. "they lower the item to what they want to sell it at" is essentially what your saying. Ignoring the fact that 1) crafters 9/10 times will not lower prices voluntarily especially by 300% and 2) the only reason they do is so they can actually sell something, or hope it sells before it gets undercut again.

[MistressAthena]

@ Bizzybeast

I've lowered myself to your level, which I hate myself for. Congratulations. Instead of getting upset at your immature, and arrogant responses, I'll opt to simply ignore your gibberish. I've already fully explained why the FFXI AH system would work -BETTER-.

The only thing you've done is explain -HOW- the current system works.. Congratulations.. We already know how it works.. Since you can't seem to properly disassemble my logic, and instead continue to repeat yourself on how the current market system works (which isn't making any point btw, and certainly isn't countering mine). I'll opt again, to ignore you. Since your a lost cause at this point.

You fail to grasp 1 simple thing. This is a game.. Nowhere is this market, or the surroundings of the market realistic. Nor should it be subject to real life "rules". A game needs balance, and to keep things fair between all forms of players. While supply/demand will always exist, and so will an economy, in no way should it be allowed to happen without some form of check. I'm not getting 50 cars a month for doing odd jobs for people, nor is anyone else. Nor am I trying to sell those said cars next to a car dealership for half his price, simply because to me Its a profit regardless and I just want to get rid of them. However, that's whats happening in the game. (Just replace cars for armor/weapons, etc.). It's creating an uncontrolled chaotic market which needs to be put in check in one way or another.

For the 3rd and final straw which is opting me to simply ignore you, is your entire 3rd response to me, that entire post is filled with either repeats of stuff that don't prove anything besides how the current market system works, and or either simply failing to understand what I was clearly saying, and or, taking what I said out of context. Example: The Floor/Ceiling that game developers put into games. You failed to #1 understand that concept, and #2 took what I said out of context.

This is an obvious waste of time to talk to someone who will neither give me any intelligent counter, and is to arrogant to listen, and or care to listen other than whats coming out of his own mouth, then turn around take what I say out of context, and attempt to put words into my own mouth.

So, have a great day. Wish I could say it was nice knowing you.

[MistressAthena]

i agree with needing something done about this. the AH in FFXI worked great and i would happily go to that, im getting tired of all the undercutting. but im also getting tired of this hate in here.
im not gonna lie, OP is kinda losing me with all the little insults in her response posts so im just gonna post this before i become biased.
i agree with what the OP is saying, i like the current way the game is set up with retainers an markets but if its just like this undercutting constantly then i would rather have the blind AH back from FFXI.
im not gonna start bringing in talk of monopoly, value, worth, or anything like that, and im not gonna make people feel like a stupid 5 year old. i dont care what the devs do, but something needs to be fixed and i know FFXI AH works, so im siding with that.

I didn't insult anyone D:. I was just poking fun at Bizzy by just repeating what he said. Though people like that get on my nerves, who attempt to say something and clearly have no understanding, and can't seem to understand this is a game, and not real life either. But I digress. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, only when they disagree with me and are to closed minded and blind to have a proper mature, and intelligent discussion.

That being said <3 Thank you.

[bwalker36]

You fail to grasp 1 simple thing. This is a game.. Nowhere is this market, or the surroundings of the market realistic. Nor should itbe subject to real life "rules". A game needs balance, and to keep things fair between all forms of players. While supply/demand will always exist, and so will an economy, in no way should it be allowed to happen without some form of check. I'm not getting 50 cars a month for doing odd jobs for people, nor is anyone else. Nor am I trying to sell those said cars next to a car dealership for half his price, simply because to me Its a profit regardless and I just want to get rid of them. However, that's whats happening in the game. (Just replace cars for armor/weapons, etc.). It's creating an uncontrolled chaotic market which needs to be put in check in one way or another.

I'm sorry but this makes no sense. If the devs did not want this market/economy in game to attempt to act like a real economy then they wouldn't implement systems like this at all. Rules like supply and demand should be paramount in the system and that is what is causing your issues right now. As time goes on the lower tier stuff will become more expensive as people move past it. There is no real demand for crafted gear outside crafting which is just another problem.

The only actual issue with this system is people can click through and it auto assigns the vendor price. They should have a 200 or 300% markup automatically however that doesn't help when the highest thing I've seen was vendor 5Xgil. You don't want competition, which I think is your problem. You want SE to arbitrarily keep prices in a zone for your benefit. If you don't like the value of the current item hold it. When everyone is not leveling crafting/gathering prices will go up and undercutting will be less than it is now.

The true problem is supply is just ridiculous compared to demand.

[EvanderStoneguard]

crafters 9/10 times will not lower prices voluntarily.

87% of statistics are made up on the spot

You're comment was that you slaved away at gathering and crafting to make xy item then try to sell at a your desire price. I pointed out if someone else gathered and crafted same xy item and decided to sell it for less, this doesn't make it unfair, wrong, or broken.

Or better yet, 8/10 players will. lol

You're frustrated because you are not able to control the market. The suggestions you are making is for SE to implement a controlled environment and I think that would be wrong because it benefits few players and not the casual players. The current systems keeps it honest and many can't manipulate it, it might be unfortunate for few who "game" the market to make a ton of gil but I think it will discourages RMT because they jack up prices where new players can't afford it and have to either make the farming a part time job or buy from RMT.

[Kazamoto]

Two small issues I have here...

Basically, yes. The system was from the early 2000s, it had no real market testing and was a great idea on paper. But then, of course, that crusty old piece of paper was crumpled up and thrown away. People wrote scripts to check for low gil items and most people were frustrated with the system. If I think Bronze Ingots are worth 200 per and I sit there trying 100-300, to not find any.. Ive wasted massive amounts of time and effort. Were undercutters could potentially get rich, instead of having to take a hit. Its a little mind boggling you don't see how this old tired system would be worse for what you complain hardest about.

In FF11 if I listed an item at 2gil and you bid 5000, if my item was the lowest you would buy it at 5000. This did not work and would never in this day an age. 'Worked perfectly', seems like a bit of a tretch, considering the game got shut down for a new one, with a new system. Then even that system got changed again. This means they werent so perfect and honestly neither is this one.

1. Fiat money based economies have been around since the 11th century. This is an old idea and thus inferior. New economy based on how many walnuts fit in your nose is better, because it is newer.

2. FFXI was never shut down, the economy was never shut down, it is still ongoing.

Side note, NPC value has nothing to do with market value.
In FFXI the Kraken Club NPC's for ~12,850 Gil.
MARKET VALUE is around of 110,000,000 gil.
(on Fenrir)

[Bizzybeast]

Im sorry MisterAthena, your posts are no longer worth my time. They have no value in a meaningful discussion and ill be the gentleman and simply ignore them instead of correcting their endless errors and predictable flaws in logic. Good day sir.

Two small issues I have here...

1. Fiat money based economies have been around since the 11th century. This is an old idea and thus inferior. New economy based on how many walnuts fit in your nose is better, because it is newer.

Which online game was that in the 11th century? I didnt play it.

2. FFXI was never shut down, the economy was never shut down, it is still ongoing.

I am so absolutely glad to hear this! I guess since it was such a perfect system, youll be heading back. Good luck in your adventures there!

Side note, NPC value has nothing to do with market value.
In FFXI the Kraken Club NPC's for ~12,850 Gil.
MARKET VALUE is around of 110,000,000 gil.
(on Fenrir)

Oh, more FF11 stuff being forced into a conversation about FF14, that threw me off for a minute, lol, not gonna lie. I thought since I shut down the other guy, I wouldnt have to deal with much of that gibberish.

Umm anyway, no. Value is written on an item, its the gil you'd get selling it to a vendor.

Worth is "market value" and im so very very sorry to inform you of this.. But you do not get to randomly make up what that means. By its very nature, it means what an item is worth to the players. Thanks so much for that cool ff11 anecdote though, that was so neat.

I just wish it meant something here, in this conversation.

If in FF14 ARR, the Kraken Club sold to an NPC for 12,850, its value is 12, 850. You and I are not special enough to pretend we can definitively say its worth. According to MisterAthena, even the market history cannot do this, because items are only worth what he claims they are.

Anyway good luck in FF11! Again im super duper sorry that old ass crusty game wont have its terrible mechanics thrown into this modern MMO, on a whim. That must really be hard to understand by those stuck living in the past.

[Kazamoto]

I'm sorry, have I done something to offend you personally?

Do you have some sort of grudge against FFXI in particular?

My reference to fiat money was not in regard to any online game, but to the real world. As many nations in the real world use a fiat money system, first used in the 11th century.
Your argument was that any 'old' system was inferior to any new system based solely on its age.

Any FF11 is GOING to be brought up in any discussion related to 14 simply because the games are already so similar. They come from the same developer, and even the same design team.
Both games use the same, although renamed races, the same character models for many of the monsters, and many of the classes have the same abilities.

I'm sorry you fail to see the similarities, perhaps you never played 11, possibly due to its difficulty curve early on. But the two games are very strongly related.

Taru Taru = Lalafel
Elvaan = Elzen
Galka = Roogadoog
Hume = Hyurrrrr
Mithra = Mi'qote

Limsa = Bastok
Gridania = Windurst
Ul'dah = San d'oria with a dash of Aht Urgan

And to continue off you "What the npc buys it for is its only value" arguement.

I am going to assume you own a car, or at least know someone who does.

A scrap yard will pay usually around $400 for any car as scrap, no matter its condition.
Since the vendor will pay $400, any car is worth $400. That is its one and only value because that's what the vendor will buy it for.

But if you argue that this isn't a correct example?

When you sell a car for scrap, it becomes destroyed and no longer a car, when you sell an item to a npc, it is removed from the game, and no longer an item.

While a dealership might give you more for the car as a trade in, or a person may buy it from you for more money, it is only worth $400 because that is the 'vendor' price.

Want to take this further?

Old currency, like almost anything on this page: http://www.coinsite.com/html/uscoinprices.asp

The face value for a 1916 liberty quarter is $0.25, but it is worth $2000-3000.

Face value is not actual value on most items. I'm sorry if you cannot understand this.

I honestly don't understand why you are so hostile.

[bwalker36]

You both are arguing semantics at this point. Value and worth are the same thing. Its how you define them that makes the difference. Stated value is the value without the market. So in the case of the care it will always have a stated value of 400. However its relative value or market value can differ widely.

Simply put the sl500 benz has a stated value of 400 in scrap.
But is relative value to other cars as a "car" is probably somewhere in the 40-50k range.

Therefore your bronze allagan piece has a stated value of 100. That does not change. Its relative value is also 100 because there is nothing else to do with it and it cannot be compared to anything but its stated value.

Iron ore has a stated value of say 3gil. But its relative value to the time needed to mine it, the goods it produces and supply in the market put its value (note value can still be used here) at say 30gil. (totally made up prices as I don't know them)


Edit: Also whats up with the hostility here. It's like you guys have a personal stake in this lol.

[MistressAthena]

You both are arguing semantics at this point. Value and worth are the same thing. Its how you define them that makes the difference. Stated value is the value without the market. So in the case of the care it will always have a stated value of 400. However its relative value or market value can differ widely.

Simply put the sl500 benz has a stated value of 400 in scrap.
But is relative value to other cars as a "car" is probably somewhere in the 40-50k range.

Therefore your bronze allagan piece has a stated value of 100. That does not change. Its relative value is also 100 because there is nothing else to do with it and it cannot be compared to anything but its stated value.

Iron ore has a stated value of say 3gil. But its relative value to the time needed to mine it, the goods it produces and supply in the market put its value (note value can still be used here) at say 30gil. (totally made up prices as I don't know them)


Edit: Also whats up with the hostility here. It's like you guys have a personal stake in this lol.

Good point and your absolutely right.