Yoshi P talks about Warriors- from Producer Letter Live @ TGS

[HiirNoivl]

Here's something else that's interesting.

If you Raise your Crit Rate, everything has a Chance to Crit, this includes Fracture and Vengeance and your Auto Attacks. IF you use Vengeance on Top of Blood Bath then you will be Hitting Crits not only when you do damage but when you receive damage. Vengeance goes from being a 50 potency attack with Damage received to a 75 potency with damage received and that translate with more HP received.

It makes Bloodbath actually worth it.

Geez what about Storm's Path going from nothing to something, too. I never used Storm's Path because it was such a weak Cure... Dang, I may break it out for some Berserk action now.

I don't think you haters realize what you're missing. 24.78 was the crit rate I had over all, there were some spikes in there where my Crit Rate was up to 57%. Some other spikes where it was 27%... I bet that was with Internal Release.

This will result in the best garuda kill yet!

It already has! That was my first test! Where I went UP in DPS when I had gone down in ilvl on my weapon. I mean... Just blew my mind lol

This is a basic lack of understanding of game mechanics.

Base crit rate is 10%. Wrath gives 2% crit per stack. so Wrath V gives 10% crit. which is *gasp* twice the default.

This is wrong.

http://valk.dancing-mad.com/?page_id=202

According to this calculator made by people way smarter than me, if you don't add Crit Rate your chance of Critical Hit is 5.15 %

With all my melds and everything my chance of Critical hit is 12.63 %.

With Wrath V: 15.74 %

With Internal Release: 22.59 %

Yet I result in 24.78% Crit Rate on Average....

Why? I don't know. Hidden modifier?

[Onisake]

That's why I started looking into Crit. The ONLY WAY to make that Inner Beast worth it is to Crit that thing (Or use Berserk). Little did I know that my Crit Rate would receive such an extreme lift by Wrath V as well. To the point where my Crit Rate effectively Doubles without even using Internal Release.

This is a basic lack of understanding of game mechanics.


Base crit rate is 10%. Wrath gives 2% crit per stack. so Wrath V gives 10% crit. which is *gasp* twice the default.

really? you make it sound like this is some kind of epiphany. it's not. any WAR with half a brain already knew this. you NEED to keep wrath V up to be worth anything. that means you only use IB when infuriated is up, or it is a DIRE emergency.

this isn't new research. this is you finally realizing how to play your job ~_~

This doesn't change the fact that WAR is weaker than pld. it doesn't change the fact, as you so kindly pointed out, that WAR doesn't recieve the tools it needs from the gear that is provided.

Crit rate isn't the deciding factor. there are too many other things 'wrong' with war to make 5% crit bridge the entire divide between pld and war.

[wlakiz]

Unchained is a *terrible* thing to use as a WAR: it eats your Wrath stacks while simultaneously preventing you from using Inner Beast. If you're using Unchained, you're reducing your mitigation.
...
AoE damage and enmity are a more complex question than you might think. The PLD AoEs are effectively free: CoS has no cost and Flash costs MP.

Here is the problem with your math.. you are not comparing apple to apple. Supposedly, in your math, you are assuming while tanking PLD always have full health to do a full 300 pot Spirit Within, but at the same time, you assume WAR will never use IB on CD because they need to save it for big hits. Does the PLD never get hit in your scenario?

If you want to compare damage, you need to compare a WAR going all out without consideration of his own survival.

Also, I liked how you downplayed WAR's Aoe damage/enmity output compared to PLD. Even if flash and COS is free (flash will eventually require PLD to regen his own mana), it doesn't change the obvious fact that WAR who can also use flash, overpowered/vengeance/Steel cyclone will out enmity/damage PLD (which is more important to the 'AOE down Adds' scenarios).

You called Overpowered 'laughable damage compared to DPS AoEs and has a much smaller area of effect' but somehow PLD's CS is not laughable?

[Kaalan]

Who really cares about our aoe and their damage ?
As long as you can keep threat on a pack of trash, what's the big deal ?

[Rios-Drakoon]

Yes, maybe Warrior can AoE Tank better then Paladin. but who cares? Paladin can also AoE Tank, and are easier to heal. aslong Paladin are easier to heal compared to Warrior, aslong we are just second class Tank.

And for waht should a Groupe choose 1 Warrior 1 Paladin if they can have 2 Paladin?

[Wangstrong]

There are encounters where paladin is even the better AoE tank because they can sustain their use of Flash whereas a warrior will run out of resources in under a minute and then has no options for regeneration. Sometimes you may be able to get a bard to help, but not always. There's a notable fight in Coil where you need a paladin to do the AoE tanking for this reason. A warrior also runs out of TP after a few minutes of doing just the basic rotation and then has no option but to simply stop attacking for a while. It really is beyond silly.

[Xariann]

Actually it does.


I made a post about it on my blog and it's been posted all over this thread and all over this forum. If you don't have a strong enough Inner Beast, if you use your Inner Beast it will result in a LOSS of potential HP every time. I thought that this was the wrong way to view things, and I posted as such. Why did I feel this way? Because I was concerned about the loss of DPS that occurs when you don't use your Wrath. I felt that if you held Wrath V, you lost so much DPS that you were nothing more than a worse PLD.

In one way I was right, but in another away I was wrong. Dead wrong.

While it's true that Wrath V holds the key to some of our hardest hitting moves, it also holds the key to our mitigation as WARs. That 15% curing potency upgrade is nothing to sniff at. Even if you hit a 1500 Inner Beast, you result in a loss of -96 HP as posted in an eye opening thread. In my blog, and on my twitter I said, "Guys, we as WARs have to overcome this threshold. If your DPS does not rise to the level of making that Inner Beast a positive GAIN on HP, you will never be good at your Job."

That's why I started looking into Crit. The ONLY WAY to make that Inner Beast worth it is to Crit that thing (Or use Berserk). Little did I know that my Crit Rate would receive such an extreme lift by Wrath V as well. To the point where my Crit Rate effectively Doubles without even using Internal Release.

I've changed my tune about Wrath V in a complete 180. You do more DPS (far more) when you hold Wrath, than when you release it. Granted, when you think about how much a crit is (1.5x normal damage) You're essentially hitting a Berserk hit, without using Berserk. That's why you can see on my parse screenie that I'm hitting so hard.

Don't think it's RNG. Parsing Averages and DPs numbers are not Random. Far from it.

You are not getting my point though.

First you say use crit to buff Inner Beast. Which is what I thought you wanted Crit for, and I understand that.

Then you say, "Don't ever use Inner Beast until absolutely necessary."

That means that you are stacking crit to have better Inner Beasts, but then you don't use it. So during the time where you are not using it, you are still not more effective defense wise than you were before you had crit, because whether you had crit or not, you still have that 15% healing buff.

So if you stack crit and then hold onto that skill that benefits from it (Inner Beast) then you are not better than you were before stacking crit. You only are those rare times where you use Inner Beast because you don't use it whenever you can.

What I am getting from you is:

1. If you don't have enough crit there is no point in using Inner Beast because you are actually losing out on your hp.

2. If you have enough crit, STILL don't use it until absolutely necessary, don't use it on each of Titan's big moves, but only when healers struggle with healing you after it. So when I DON'T use it after the big move, I will still have been worse than a Paladin who did mitigate that hit. Do you understand what I mean?

Plus I get it that you do more DPS with crit. I really get it. I don't care. I want to know that I have better defensive abilities. And if you read above, I don't see that extra defensive threshold if then you just don't use Inner Beast unless you are in dire need. I am not disputing that keeping the Wrath stacks is good. I am saying that stacking that crit isn't such a HUGE improvement DEFENSIVELY because you don't utilise the crit in a defensive manner often enough.

If the problem is surpassing that negative HPS threshold, then lots of crit should equal to lots of Inner Beast usage. Not to "Lots of crit, but STILL don't use Inner Beast" which is what threw me off in your replies. If the extra crit doesn't make you want to use Inner Beast more often, then no point in stacking it if you are after a better way to stay alive. You might as well stack strenght and keep your Inner Beast for emergency as you are doing already.

Also the maths on that thread don't take into consideration your normal crit, with use of Inner Release throughout the Chimera encounter, it's 15%ish for me without any crit stacking gear wise.

Someone also showed me some numbers from a reddit thread. He said,

"Taking an example of a Bard in full Darklight gear with Relic weapon, they received these results:

1 Determination/Crit rate = 0.033% damage increase
1 Dexterity = 0.2% damage increase
1 Weapon damage = 1.55% damage increase

As we can see, WD is beyond the best increase, so getting a +1 on your weapon is worth about 8 primary stats (str/dex/vit/int/mnd) and one primary stat is worth about 6 secondary stats.

A single WD is worth almost 50 secondary stats, so yes, it's really worth upgrading from Relic to Relic +1.

But also, apparently the WD scales off your primary stats, so the higher your primary stat is, the less damage increase you will get from WD. At the current level of this game, this is a non-issue, but it might pose a problem in the future when max level is perhaps 70+."

If those numbers are true and if strength contributes the same amount of damage to a melee than dex does to a ranged, then you wouldn't care about crit because:

1. You actually do less damage than with stacking strength
2. You need a lot more points in crit to get the same amount of damage increase as strength, therefore needing a lot more materia slots, and you only have a finite number of those so your damage caps a lot earlier than it does with strength
3. If by stacking Strength, your Inner Beasts are consistently better, even if they don't crit as often, the overall HPS might still increase and surpass the negative threshold because strength means more damage than crit overall

On top of that you don't know:

1. How much strength the person who posted your "eye opening thread" has
2. How he gets 2.0 skill speed
3. Can you, by stacking crit, surpass the HPS of him using 2.0 skill speed? Because of course, if you are stacking skill speed, you are out of Materia slots for crit

[Kitru]

If you want to compare damage, you need to compare a WAR going all out without consideration of his own survival.

No, because if I really wanted to do that I would just have the WAR run around without Defiance on. If you're in tank stance, you are *not* attempting to go all out for damage without consideration for survival. The math I did is for maximized damage while still maintaining optimal survivability. One of the reasons why Unchained is so laughable is specifically *because* you could just drop out of Defiance for the duration and have it behave in pretty much the same way.

And, actually, if you understood the math that I did, I *did* include leeway for using Inner Beast: you simply replace it with Fracture. Fracture and Inner Beast just so happen to deal the same damage. It's a pretty obvious exchange.

Also, I liked how you downplayed WAR's Aoe damage/enmity output compared to PLD. Even if flash and COS is free (flash will eventually require PLD to regen his own mana), it doesn't change the obvious fact that WAR who can also use flash, overpowered/vengeance/Steel cyclone will out enmity/damage PLD (which is more important to the 'AOE down Adds' scenarios).

Any WAR that takes Flash is wasting an additional slot. A WAR gets to use Flash all of 3 times without the advantage of the Blind debuff before running out of MP and it takes twice as long to get the mana for Flash back, thanks to WARs having half of the mp of a PLD. Bringing up Flash for a WAR in a discussion of AoE threat demonstrates that you have no clue what is actually useful for a WAR.

Furthermore, Vengeance is only useful when you're actually being attacked. If you're being attacked, you've already got aggro. As such, it's there as a DPS increase, but it's not a useful consideration for aggro generation. On top of that, Vengeance still has that 120 second CD and 15 second duration. At 1 attack per GCD, Circle of Scorn is going to provide just as much threat and damage as Vengeance is, and Circle of Scorn is on a much shorter CD.

Steel Cyclone is another one of those completely worthless abilities to bring up in the discussion. Steel Cyclone is the equivalent of a whopping 266 enmity potency and actually ends up being *more* expensive thanks to costing Wrath stacks. Overpower provides 240. Steel Cyclone is so bad that it could stop existing entirely and it wouldn't affect the way WAR is played *at all*.

You're behaving as if AoE occasions exist completely independently of the rest of the fight. You *have* to consider the resource costs of the abilities and the opportunity cost that using the ability accrues. Flash doesn't have *any* opportunity cost because it's functionally free. Overpower has a *massive* opportunity cost. Every time that you use it, you're cleaving off ~20 seconds off of your effective fighting time. Use it more than 2-3 times and you're going to be incapable of doing damage to the actual boss a short time later, and that ends up costing you a *crapton* of damage in the end.

Opportunity costs matter and Overpower comes with really high ones. That's what you seem to be incapable of understanding, no matter how much I tell you.

You called Overpowered 'laughable damage compared to DPS AoEs and has a much smaller area of effect' but somehow PLD's CS is not laughable?

All tanks have laughable AoE damage compared to DPS. You seem to have focused on the first part of that sentence while ignoring the second half. The only thing that matters, as far as tanks are concerned, is AoE enmity generation. The damage doesn't matter. WAR has better snap AoE threat, but it's harder to manage, from both a functional and a resource based model. Flash is easier to use, covers a larger area, is effectively free, and comes with a nice little debuff as a cherry on top.

When discussing the AoE capabilities of the two tanks, people get *really* hung up on the damage just because Flash doesn't deal any. They're willing to ignore *every other factor* that distinguishes the AoEs just because of that one thing. It's even more audacious when people act as if the damage that Overpower provides actually matters; the dilution of tank damage applies just as much to AoE capability as it does to ST damage: it means almost *nothing*, especially when you recognize that you'll manage all of 2-3 Overpowers before you're effectively forced to stop thanks to resource management.

[Wangstrong]

I don't have Steel Cyclone on my bars.

[Onisake]

This is wrong.

http://valk.dancing-mad.com/?page_id=202

According to this calculator made by people way smarter than me, if you don't add Crit Rate your chance of Critical Hit is 5.15 %

With all my melds and everything my chance of Critical hit is 12.63 %.

With Wrath V: 15.74 %

With Internal Release: 22.59 %

Yet I result in 24.78% Crit Rate on Average....

Why? I don't know. Hidden modifier?

why? because the calculator is wrong...that's why. it's off by 4% >.>;; is it really that hard to figure out?

I trust data I collect only. unless you show me all the parsing data you have to show that that calculator is correct, i'm going to go with the data i've collected on my own time and the data i've seen from others. DATA not just a random calculator value that I have no idea if its credible or not.

The data he provides for his number generator is limited, at best. he admits he extrapolates his data. doesn't explain why, and just points to another website. Furthermore this data has been around since beta. I have not seen any updates to his data since that time. his damage formula is off of 4 data points... in otherwords: I don't trust it.