SMN - Why it is not a very interesting job and not a good upgrade from ACN

[Hawklaser]

It's because, functionally, using Summons is 99% of the time useless. Either do to lack of damage, better damage options, long animations, have more important things to do(healing), or due to complications which arise from those(I'm looking at you, FF9).

The only time summons have actually been strong is from a lore perspective.

The damage of them has always been fine, unless of course you are trying to compare a low end summon to a high end spell. Do I expect Ifrit, who is usually one of the earliest summons gotten, to outpace Flare or Fire 3, which are usually gotten much later? No I don't. Ifrit is usually gotten before you have access to Fire 2 or about the same time, and his attacks are usually stronger than that, often estimated to be a Fire 2.5 because of where it falls. Reason you don't use it often, is usually because at that time MP is a very finite resource unless you have done tons of grinding and then it doesn't matter anyways.You have to compare them to what you would normally have at the same time you got them, not at the end when have everything. If you want to compare a summon to a spell like Flare, it had better be a late game summon.

As to the long animations, that is not really a good argument about them being useless or weak. Take Knights of the Round from FF7 for example, that thing had a horrendously long animation, however it was also one of the strongest attacks in that game. Could you likely do more damage than it did during that animation period? Quite likely, however outside of specific character's limit breaks there was no way to do more damage in a single action.

[Klive]

How to fix summoner.

First, change the pets to new models of...
a Skeleton in place of Ifrit.
a Zombie in place of titan.
a ghost in place of garuda.

change the pet abilites graphics and names to fit pets name.

Change a AF gear to look like something like this.


Change summoner's name to necromancer.

"summoner" is now "fixed"

[Kevee]

snip

See, this is what I'm talking about.

The damage has never been fine when there's always an avenue to do more. The steep costs just make it worse.

Animations, in particular, are bad. Especially when they do less damage. KotR in FF7 is a HORRIBLE example. Why use that, with the long animation, when you can just mimic limit break? You said it yourself, there's a vastly superior option(and not just limited to 1 character). Hell, even Double Attack+Haste would most likely out damage KotR. It was also a jab at FF9, since any long animations were bad due to how buffs worked. First, they lasted based on both the casters and receivers spirit stat. Second, the timer went down during any animation and idle time.

And then when you compare ANY of the other summons? LOL

[Hawklaser]

See, this is what I'm talking about.

The damage has never been fine when there's always an avenue to do more. The steep costs just make it worse.

Animations, in particular, are bad. Especially when they do less damage. KotR in FF7 is a HORRIBLE example. Why use that, with the long animation, when you can just mimic limit break? You said it yourself, there's a vastly superior option(and not just limited to 1 character). Hell, even Double Attack+Haste would most likely out damage KotR. It was also a jab at FF9, since any long animations were bad due to how buffs worked. First, they lasted based on both the casters and receivers spirit stat. Second, the timer went down during any animation and idle time.

And then when you compare ANY of the other summons? LOL

You miss the point of relative damage. As by the logic you are using why bother obtaining any gear but the "ultimate" gear in a game because it is just useless. So tell me, if the only damage that matters is the absolute best option, why should I use anything but level 1 gear until I get it, after all it is a waste using that logic. And on the magic side, why bother using cure or fire at all, because there are later spells that outclass them as well. And on the same point, in some games why even bother using the ultimate spells when with enough grinding can get plain old Fire to do the same thing for less? This is a problem when just look at things from a Min-Max perspective, you only look at things in the perfect optimal set-ups which rarely happen until post game anyways.

You also missed the point I made about animation sequences, which KotR is the perfect example for. As I said it was quite possible you could do more damage during the same amount of time as KotR's animation, but outside of the large multi hit limits like Omnislash, there was no way to do more damage in a single action. And guess what, those hard hitting limits were not just handed over to you on a silver plater either. If could turn off all the animations in FF7, you would just as likely abuse mimic-KotR as you would mimic-limit, which you could not do every single fight either seeing as limits had limitations on their use as well.

Now buffs and other timers continuing during a long forced animation is more of a overall design flaw than an issue with the abilities with the long animations.

[Arcana]

at lvl 50 smn's damage are good. We have not a big burst (but still we have enkindle, bane & miasma II) but overall damage we are at top dps. Dont panic about it.

[HWF-7force]

I really enjoy my SMN...
Granted, I only play SMN when soloing or someone else in my FC wants to heal.
But regardless, I REALLY enjoy the way the XIV SMN plays and feel.

I get where you all are coming from, and I have faith that SE will do right by us in the long run.
As far as not feeling like a summoner? Things change all the time in Final Fantasy-- look at SCH, for example! Next to nothing like the XI SCH job, yet I embrace it for what it is in this incarnation and enjoy it immensely!

[azethoth]

I just did a bit of testing.

ACN lvl 50 Ifrit Tome
INT-387
Determination-291
Crit 386
Ruin II-crit 210 normal 145-160
Energy drain- Cirt 406,Normal 270-290
Shadow Flare 65-77
Dots-Bio,Bio2,Miasma,Thunder,Aero
Dot tick range 314-380 middle range of 340-355
Dot tick range with raging strikes(180s) 380-405
Dot tick range with raging strikes(180s) + internal release(60s) 414-487
Emerald Caryb Auto attack 130-145 crit 213


SMN LVL 50 Ifrit Tome
Int 394
Determination 290
Crit 415
Ruin II-151-160 crit 230
Energy Drain-282-303 crit 440
Fester-580-600 crit 900-1000
Shadow Flare-65-77
Tri-Disaster(lul)-57-60 crit 81
Dots-Bio,BioII,Miasma,Thunder
Dot tick range-285-320 middle range 315 High of 347(crit probably)
Dot tick range with raging strikes(180s) -340-386
Garuda Auto Attack-148-162 crit 250

There is not a whole lot different. Granted fester is amazing. Best thing about summoner, but as a whole the damage remains about the same, even with less int on the acn.I still love the class of course, but a bit of a disappointment really.

Put this in this thread too, since there are a couple good threads going.

[Samuraiking]

Next to nothing like the XI SCH job

All SCH is, is a RDM that doesn't use melee. And in XIV, they actually took away its BLM spells, so it's more like a WHM with a pet. The only reason SCH and SMN have DoTs is because they wanted a class with a DoT mechanic AND needed to put SCH and SMN in the game because people wanted it. So they meshed them together when they shouldn't have. It wasn't creativity that made them, but a lack of it.

Anyway, I love SCH and this whole fucking thread is NOT ABOUT DMG or ABILITY TO FUNCTION as a class. It's about SMN not being a traditional SMN. Plain and simple. It does dmg, it isn't a bad class if you take away the SMN name.

[Crevox]

at lvl 50 smn's damage are good. We have not a big burst (but still we have enkindle, bane & miasma II) but overall damage we are at top dps. Dont panic about it.

You didn't even read the top of the opening post, let alone the rest of it. This thread isn't about SMN's DPS.

[Kevee]

You miss the point of relative damage. As by the logic you are using why bother obtaining any gear but the "ultimate" gear in a game because it is just useless. So tell me, if the only damage that matters is the absolute best option, why should I use anything but level 1 gear until I get it, after all it is a waste using that logic. And on the magic side, why bother using cure or fire at all, because there are later spells that outclass them as well. And on the same point, in some games why even bother using the ultimate spells when with enough grinding can get plain old Fire to do the same thing for less? This is a problem when just look at things from a Min-Max perspective, you only look at things in the perfect optimal set-ups which rarely happen until post game anyways.

You missed the point. They are relatively weaker throughout.

You also missed the point I made about animation sequences, which KotR is the perfect example for. As I said it was quite possible you could do more damage during the same amount of time as KotR's animation, but outside of the large multi hit limits like Omnislash, there was no way to do more damage in a single action. And guess what, those hard hitting limits were not just handed over to you on a silver plater either. If could turn off all the animations in FF7, you would just as likely abuse mimic-KotR as you would mimic-limit, which you could not do every single fight either seeing as limits had limitations on their use as well.

It doesn't matter if anything else couldn't do more damage in a single action, if over the course of the animation you can get multiple actions that deal more total damage. You can't turn off animations, so why even bring it up? Not to mention KotR had it's own limitation in the MP cost, and unless you spent time grinding to master it, or mimic materia, only one person could master it. That's more of a limitation than LB when you can just pre-grind it for anything you needed.