Dragoon Thread, help discussions and more.

[xyaie]

Its still odd to me that you say it makes zero diffrence, then you give numbers showing how it is more dps. ill work out the math if needed, but if you did 300 damage in 20 seconds, and 60 damage in the next 20 seconds, thats 360 damage in 40 seconds, or 9 dps. meanwhile the only log at 50 ive seen posted off a fight long enough to be worth parsing left the highest dps 130. thats a 7% increase to their overall damage if they were to get this measly 9 dps increase. you know how much stuff people would do in other games for a 7% dps increase? im sure we could work out each abilities importance to your overall dps. what is the cut off? technically stuff will die sooner or later if you just do the full thrust combo over and over

[Skies]

Hrm... I have to make a point in regards to that buff.
He's saying it's not worth it on short duration fights, that's true DoTs and buffs like those aren't in case you're not using a large majority of the buff's timer, but- Even a single mob in every pull once you hit the L30+ dungeons already takes at least 30s to kill (I know that because i'm playing PGL rightn ow and Touch of Death tends to be at 2~3 second when the mob dies and it's my opener move).

Also just so you know, you can do some science to see if the DoT is affected by the buffs, btw. You should know that a DoT/Buff/Debuff will never be overwritten by a weaker version of the same (so Proshell won't be overwriten by Protect, for example, there was even some complaint in the forums about this). If you use a buff and then drop a dot, wait for the buff to wane and drop the dot again, you'll notice that it won't overwrite.

[Dervy]

Heavy Thrust Test 2

So, just like before we're using:

• Gae Bolg (44 WD)
  
• 363 Strength
  
• 238 Determination
  
• 20 Seconds of skills, meaning 8 GCD skills
  
• We'll just the Thrust Combo as it is our hardest hitting skill we continuously use
  
• Previously, I included Blood for Blood. This time, I WILL NOT use BfB
  
• 1 Rotation will consist of using a Heavy Thrust at the beginning, and 7 GDC skills.
  
• Only changing Variable is the replacement of 1 of the skills to use Heavy Thrust at the beginning of the rotation.

Without Heavy Thrust

True Thrust - 159.95
Vorpal Thrust - 213.75
Full Thrust - 319.89
True Thrust - 159.95
Vorpal Thrust - 213.75
Full Thrust - 319.89
Impulse Drive - 191.93

Total = 1579.11

With Heavy Thrust

For this, I will not use Impulse Drive, and replace it with the Heavy Thrust at the beginning of the Rotation.

Heavy Thrust - 106.63
Now 10% Heavy Thrust buff activates
True Thrust - 175.95
Vorpal Thrust - 234.59
Full Thrust - 351.88
True Thrust - 175.95
Vorpal Thrust - 234.59
Full Thrust - 351.88

Total: 1631.47

Now, let's include Power Surge > Jump

Without Heavy Thrust

Power Surge > Jump - 319.89
This is because 50% buff to Jump = 300 potency, same as Full Thrust

Total: 1899

With Heavy Thrust

Power Surge > Jump - 351.88
This is because 50% buff to Jump = 300 potency, same as Full Thrust

Total: 1983.35

Damage Differences

Basic Rotation = 51.36 AVG damage

With Jumps included = 84.35


Looks like my math was completely off previously when I said there's a difference with 300 damage. I guess it was because I did it off my head and got one of the numbers wrong or something.

Your call guys. Is Heavy Thrust worth that extra 52 damage or would you rather use that 2.5s to go into a Chaos Thrust Rotation, or Support your tank with a Leg Sweep/Feint? I'd rather use my utility.

Now remember this is for 20 seconds. Just like before, I will say this. Over the course of a long boss fight, where the fight lasts 15 minutes or so, we will be able to do an extra 2295 damage. 2295 in 15 minutes. lol. A BLM can do that damage in a few seconds with Crits. That's why I suggest Heavy Thrust buff to be increased to 15%. It's too tiny right now.

But it's up to you guys to decide whether this needs a buff or not. I've said what I need to say.

[SolRising]

Why wouldn't you consider using heavy thrust with blood for blood and other buffs...? Have you seen the huge dif it makes..? I used heavy thrust and blood for blood and the crit raises over 50-150 more dmg on one weapon skill than without heavy thruat. That is way more than your calculation. All I know is I've tried running wonderers palace with and without heavy thrust and it was about 10-15mins faster over all to clear. Sure there are many variables... but trust me stack your heavy thrust with all bufss and then use the combo and watch how much dmg u do... it even escalates even more with a limit break

[SolRising]

Sometimes u guys have to go by experince of what u see and stop trying to calculate with just math. This game has too many variables. Is it worth using heavy thrust stack with internal release and blood for blood and life surge with piercing dmg resistance for a extra 150 dmg on a crit in your simple combo rotation ? Yes . Drgs are a low gcd class waiting fir one rotation for increased 10% dmg for the next 20 seconds is godly. Try it out you'll see a huge difference with and without

[Dervy]

SNIP

The standard Rotation, even with BfB, the difference with damage is 68.068. I might have to redo all of the skills individually to get an accurate result, I just multiplied the damage output by 1.3

Now. You also have to remember you're on a 90s cooldown with BfB, so that increase of damage only works every 90 seconds.

Just to prove another point: an extra 5% buff, if Heavy Thrust where to be 15% and not 10%, the standard rotation damage would be 1707.712. That's over 70 extra damage, increasing the difference to 128.602, making our damage spike shit loads to 5787.09 over 15 minutes.

Now THAT is a nicer buff which would ALWAYS make you want to use Heavy Thrust at all times. Do you see where I'm getting at here? It's not "what you see" when you're fighting, but it's the numbers themselves that are off-putting.

THAT's why I want Heavy Thrust to be buffed to 15%. Because the damage increase right now is so tiny, and other classes, unfortunately, can hit harder, and more frequently than the Dragoon.

And just for extra Clarification, I know how to use the Dragoon very well. You pop BfB, Then Internal Release after the Heavy Strike, then when you go into the Thrust Combo, you use Power Surge > Vorpal > Life Surge > Full Thrust > Jump. You do it like this so you min/max your damage so you're constantly hitting when you hit that 2.5s.

Sadly, once you burst like this, your downtime is rather bad until you can get back up and you'll need your Dots, Chaos Thrust, Ploebotomize & Fracture, ensuring you use Heavy Thrust before hand so the initial damaging hit + auto-attack as high as it can, to bring your damage back up otherwise you're lagging behind that BLM/MNK.

Unless this is how the DRG is meant to be played? A Burst Class, which uses utilities to help the tank whilst in down-time? Which means all you Dragoons who removed Feint of your Cross-Class... Needs to put it back on.

[SolRising]

Drgs has always been the burst melee dps really... and u can't compare range dps like blm with melee dps. Blms are a lot less squishy. They are two entirely different play styles

[SolRising]

Meant to say blms are a lot more squishy sorry. But ya you really have to compare melee dps like mnk and drg noy drg and blm. Sure I'd love a 15% increase in dmg.. then every class will be drgs only for dps regardless range or melee

[Alexander_Dragonfang]

Is anyone theroycrafting with skill speed over critical or determination? Just to know...

[xyaie]

Is anyone theroycrafting with skill speed over critical or determination? Just to know...

i played around with a lot of numbers this morning and found:

--------------------
lets say str is an EP, ill set everything equal to it:
WD: 10.541
Str: 1
det: .193
crit: .222
*SS: .191

note: this is NOT the best representation of skill speed as it only takes into account the whole "hitting faster" aspect and not the CD reduction or the increased TP cost. Ill make a spreadsheet for it all later that will more accurately represent this. check post 18 at http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1170742 for how i reached those numbers