Let's keep Character Crossovers from other Square-Enix titles out of FFXIV.

[Rythwen]

I don't mean to be presumptuous, and it's fine if you disagree with me, but I do actually attempt to provide a rationale as to why it is different in my OP.

I reread your OP. While I see what you mean, I still don't really agree and I suppose we'll just have to leave it at that. ^^;

[Rythwen]

@SkyeWindbinder

I understand the example with chocobos, airships, Cid, Biggs & Wedge, cactuar, etc. But with Magitek, I don't recall it showing up on any other main entry, and it's been implemented from FFVI into XIV's lore. I mean, in my main Grand Company story, I actually have to fight Magitek. Perhaps I'm way off, but I feel like that staple of VI, while a little altered from VI itself, isn't much different than a character from another game coming.

[SkyeWindbinder]

@SkyeWindbinder

I understand the example with chocobos, airships, Cid, Biggs & Wedge, cactuar, etc. But with Magitek, I don't recall it showing up on any other main entry, and it's been implemented from FFVI into XIV's lore. I mean, in my main Grand Company story, I actually have to fight Magitek. Perhaps I'm way off, but I feel like that staple of VI, while a little altered from VI itself, isn't much different than a character from another game coming.

True. Then again, Magitek is an item lore, much like airships and crystals are. I'm speaking of major characters that are specific to their FF world. I'm more unquestioningly accepting of magitek showing up than I am of Lightning making a cameo. With that, well, I'll just have to wait and see.

[Obsy]

@SkyeWindbinder

I understand the example with chocobos, airships, Cid, Biggs & Wedge, cactuar, etc. But with Magitek, I don't recall it showing up on any other main entry, and it's been implemented from FFVI into XIV's lore. I mean, in my main Grand Company story, I actually have to fight Magitek. Perhaps I'm way off, but I feel like that staple of VI, while a little altered from VI itself, isn't much different than a character from another game coming.

In name alone, sure its only previous incarnation was VI, however there have been plenty of other stand-alone games where what was essentially "Magitek named something else" played just as prominent a role. Magicite in XII is one example, Mako in VII is another. While it may intially seem dubious that XIV reuses VI's tech terms (and even further, its tech aestheics) it's not like the world building and principle aesthetic wasn't already accommodating to this particular aspect beforehand. There's a lot in XIV that already allows for things such as Amano's earlier designs to exist without completely turning the game's design on its head. XIII's Lightning/weapons/clothing, on the otherhand, kiiiiinda does exactly that.

[Rythwen]

True. Then again, Magitek is an item lore, much like airships and crystals are. I'm speaking of major characters that are specific to their FF world. I'm more unquestioningly accepting of magitek showing up than I am of Lightning making a cameo. With that, well, I'll just have to wait and see.

I'm seeing where you guys are coming from, and I can see where it'd be different than item lore. In the end, it still doesn't bug me but I'm not going to knock you guys for your opinions. I get the feeling that this will still benefit SE in the long run, and if it helps them as a company without being too absurd then I've no issues. I'm sure they have a lot riding on ARR and Lightning Returns, so whatever exposure they can get is good.

[Sleverin]

Again, you missed the point I was making. Namely 'Realm-hopping' is not some random power attributed to Lightning only for this. I was pointing out that Crossing realms already exists in-game, my prime example being the Void, this does not automatically mean that the Void will be used, it only establishes that it's possible to cross dimensions. And again, during the beta storyline, the crystal summons our incorporeal forms in to it's presence. Multiple times. And even other adventurers. With a greater push, it could conceivably summon physical bodies, since, well, we adventurers travel the aether highways all the time. There's none of this retconning going on. Neither in FFXIV, nor was there any involved in Lightning's ability (Time travel, edit: which, if I'm not mistaken, she has in the second game.) to come here.



Again, Lightning will have no impact on the main story either. The only substantial difference between the two characters? Lightning has a fully fleshed out story. Period. Lightning is going to, legitimately, be here using a mechanism already in-place in both games.

I suppose you could make the case that Hildibrand has his own adventure, focused on him as well, but then the only true difference between the two is that Lightning was in a different game.

I must reply that I did not, in fact, miss your point, I merely took it to its logical conclusion. The idea of the Void as an alternate reality is incorrect because of something that I've touched on in a way but not fully discussed. To use a Classical example, we can say that we live on Earth. We have the heavens above us, on which the deities reside and that below us, Hades and its realms. These are all apart of the same "world" and function within each others existence. The deities above and below can see the plane upon which we live and act in manners accordingly to what they witness.

The same must be said of ideas of where the Mother Crystal resides (it would seem that this is more of a collective unconscious, a sort of Jungian view) which would not quite be what we associate as heaven but as more a place for souls to gather and harmonize. This might be a bit more Platonic than what is actually happening, but I'm saying all this to make a point, not to assume things of our limited information. Following this path, we can easily see where my example is going, that this "Void" is an absence of the that which is good and right (i.e. basic structured order of what is around us and that which created it [at least we would think] which would be the Crystal[s]).

Following all this, we can see that these are all, in fact, part of the same idea of existence and are not of alternate worlds that do not interact or coincide with each other. Through this we can see that there is no travel between alternate dimensions, but merely through planes of existence, not as one walks through a door but more like one rides a plane to a foreign country. It's difficult and take great expenditure of energy to do so, but can be done, even if we don't understand it.

Here's where this Lightning crossover becomes a problem, not simply because it is this single event alone that does it, but it opens doors for future crossovers which would meddle with the game and it's story. Lightning is in no way a part of Eorzea, she is not from there nor has she ever participated in its creation or been part of its timeline. This is the important part here, especially in reference to the idea of retconning. As to where the Crystal resides is in no way an alternate reality nor is the Void, the implication that must be made is that for some reason, she can access Eorzea. Yet without her being an omniscient being, how would she know about this alternate reality? How could she, in fact, even access this place without someone telling her of it except through complete random chance? On top of that, how would Eorzea even support an idea like this with being retconned? It cannot be said that alternate realities exist or that they can even be accessed without shoehorning this in at a later date and using the story device they implemented specifically for this type of event. And by doing so they can open the door for further experimentation with this idea by using any sort of quasi-dimensional travel that any character in Final Fantasy has used to simply sidestep into our game world.

That is also how it is different from Hildibrand in the fact the Hildibrand is here, he's been in the game as a plausible character with no extra baggage or anything like that and he even interacts with main plot characters and doesn't affect the main plot. Lightning doesn't, yet her mere presence changes the rules of the game world with instant retconning by her simply walking into Eorzea.

QED.

[Aish]

QED.

Okay, you've convinced me that there could possibly be some retconning. However, your classical example may not even be applicable since:

Hades itself was described as being either at the outer bounds of the ocean or beneath the depths or ends of the earth. It was considered the dark counterpart to the brightness of Mount Olympus, and was the kingdom of the dead that corresponded to the kingdom of the gods

Source

The underlined portion suggests a physical location in our world. As far as I know, the Crystal and the Void have no physical connection to Eorzea, which, to me, lends less credibility to your same 'world' argument.

You also seem to be making a distinction between separate planes of existence and alternate dimensions. To me, they are one and the same.

Yet without her being an omniscient being, how would she know about this alternate reality?

Lightning stands before the goddess's throne and is briefly made one with [the goddess] Etro.

Source

Make of this what you will.

...he's been in the game as a plausible character with no extra baggage or anything like that and he even interacts with main plot characters and doesn't affect the main plot.

Again, Lightning will not affect the main plot, retconning aside.

I can accept slight retconning for a fun event without feeling the story has been harmed. While I'll agree that they shouldn't get too crazy with the amount of cross-overs, I feel that they're offering a decent compromise on the issue that's very close to the middle-ground of [Lightning vs. No Lightning].

[Keyln]

QED.

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Final Fantasy cosmology. Each game of the Final Fantasy series takes place not in an alternate universe, or in an extra-dimensional plane, but on its own planet in the same universe (or more likely, galaxy). Travel between these worlds is very difficult, but possible, and it has been done. This has been accomplished by travelling in an asteroid (V, IV: After Years), or travelling through the void (V, VIII, IX, XII). This is not to say that alternate timelines don't exist (IX: Wings of the Goddess, XIII-2), or that alternate worlds exist (IX, XI: Abyssea, Dissidia), but for the most part, the default is that each game in the Final Fantasy series takes place on a different planet with various themes (although it does bring up questions about how humans have managed to appear on these different worlds, or how chocobos appeared as well, although there is a bit more evolutionary diversity than in humans, but I digress...). Atomos also seems to have the power to transverse worlds (V, XI: Wings of the Goddess, XI: Abyssea, XIV), as it has the power to transverse dimensions and time. The Void also seems to be a bit of a mystery at this point, but it appears to be an extra-dimensional system through which one can travel. It's not unlike wormholes which connect to distant points in space.

Now, if travel between worlds is possible in the Final Fantasy galaxy (or universe, or whatever), what makes this statement true?

It cannot be said that alternate realities exist or that they can even be accessed without shoehorning this in at a later date and using the story device they implemented specifically for this type of event. And by doing so they can open the door for further experimentation with this idea by using any sort of quasi-dimensional travel that any character in Final Fantasy has used to simply sidestep into our game world.

Provided that the world of XIV already allows for the transport from one point to another via Aethernet system, who's to say that there can't be a force powerful enough to transport a being from one world to this one through this very same system?

There need not be any retconning or story changing here, as it's already provided in the Final Fantasy galaxy that it is possible to travel between worlds, provided one has the means and power to do so. All we know is that Lightning (and THE Lightning, not a clone of one) is in XIV, but we don't know how or why yet. That's something that has yet to be explained, but it is not impossible for her to be there, or for any previous Final Fantasy character to be in XIV.

QED.

[C-croft]

Although slightly jarring, crossovers are fine, provided they are executed with caution. With that said, I can think of plenty of scenarios in which Lightning can be a part of Eorzea without retcon issues. One example could be that in XIV's time, it is Eorzea. But in the far far distant future it is something else I entirely. We can see examples of this in our own world. Our time on Earth has been but a split second in comparison to the rest of the world's time.

The point is that regardless of what we think, the lore is not ours to decide. If they construct it terribly,that is one thing, however, we should wait to pass judgment until they have given us more to see.

On a side note, I also agree that this is a marketing ploy. Hopefully a fun, well executed one.

Double side note, when writing in a high level, you should be prepared to meet resistance with regards to your ideas and opinions. I am not telling you to dumb down your writing, just know that it is easy to cause confusion. Also note, that there may be readers who understand what your underlying writing is saying, and that the hypocrisy is easy to read.


PS has anyone in this thread played all of the games to ending to see the story on XIII's side? I feel that the point of this crossover may be to enjoy both stories and see where they connect. I personally felt that the crystalization of Cocoon looks very similar to the 'scars' of Eorzea's Bahamut's temper tantrum.

[REDace0]

I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Final Fantasy cosmology. Each game of the Final Fantasy series takes place not in an alternate universe, or in an extra-dimensional plane, but on its own planet in the same universe (or more likely, galaxy). Travel between these worlds is very difficult, but possible, and it has been done. This has been accomplished by travelling in an asteroid (V, IV: After Years), or travelling through the void (V, VIII, IX, XII). This is not to say that alternate timelines don't exist (IX: Wings of the Goddess, XIII-2), or that alternate worlds exist (IX, XI: Abyssea, Dissidia), but for the most part, the default is that each game in the Final Fantasy series takes place on a different planet with various themes (although it does bring up questions about how humans have managed to appear on these different worlds, or how chocobos appeared as well, although there is a bit more evolutionary diversity than in humans, but I digress...). Atomos also seems to have the power to transverse worlds (V, XI: Wings of the Goddess, XI: Abyssea, XIV), as it has the power to transverse dimensions and time. The Void also seems to be a bit of a mystery at this point, but it appears to be an extra-dimensional system through which one can travel. It's not unlike wormholes which connect to distant points in space.

Ok, you have me intrigued. As far as I understand it, although some single FFs take place on multiple nearby worlds (V), and some even take place on the same world (Spira, Ivalice), nowhere do we have a specific reference that places two separate FFs on different worlds (or world-groupings) within the same physical plane. To clarify, what I would be looking for is a reference that says, for example, Hydaelyn and Spira are some number of light-years away from each other and you could travel from one to another if only you had a sufficiently effective mode of direct transport (i.e. not teleporting).