Can we have someone in the dungeon that will take over if I get something I don't like?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jynx
Repair NPCs in Dungeons
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03-23-2016, 12:26 PMAndrea
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03-23-2016, 12:29 PMWinterLunaYeah, that's my entire point :P the OP is using "there are other ludicrous things in the game" as logic to how NPC's would fit in dungeons. My response is that the lore is already there in those dungeons therefore it wouldn't fit, regardless of whatever silly things are implemented into the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jijifli
Apologies if worded badly. I am very against the idea of having random NPC's cater to my repair needs in dungeons. -
03-23-2016, 12:30 PMKosmos992kMcDonalds Express kiosk?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilitsa
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03-23-2016, 12:37 PMJijifliThe wording made me think you were for it, not against it. Apologies.Quote:
Originally Posted by WinterLuna
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03-23-2016, 12:38 PMWinterLuna
My bad, I worded it badly, no worries ^^
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03-23-2016, 12:46 PMThunda_Cat_SMASHBeing a forgetful person very much is a conscious choice, unless you've been stricken with short term memory loss or amnesia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adire
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03-23-2016, 02:56 PMCherieI don't doubt logistically it makes sense that there is a instance timer... If that was the *only* reason it's there, then all instance timers would be the same amount of time. They just adjusted the diadem instance timers for all modes... They are looking out for us. SE is good people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
https://344cbfb0b82bcaf3ab4c-870e777...0.Z-Z96KYq.jpg
I'm not spending more than a hour in Lost City HM with someone just because they refuse to do their appropriate role (IE - tank goes "but I don't wanna tank, I'ma dps...rawr" I wish I was making that example up). -
03-23-2016, 05:30 PMZantitrachActually, someone also pointed out that FF is all about lore. So a repair NPC has to have a story reason to be in the dungeon. And any reason a repair NPC would be in void ark, midas, gordian, etc. is non-existent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adire
I've met more pure crafters than people who have had gear break in a dungeon/trial/etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adire
Got any proof of how much gil it sucks out of the economy? If not, then I'm not going to indulge you any further on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adire
Got any proof of just how much gil it sucks out of the economy? If not, then I'm not going to indulge you any further on this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adire
*Emphasis Mine*Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
No, it hasn't. If you're not going to read the thread, don't comment.
Great, now do the tough ones, The Aery, Void Ark, BCoB, SCoB, FCoB, Midas, Gordian, TEX, REX, IEX, LEX, BEX, Rav EX, Thordan....Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
That is NOTHING at all alike. The blind guy guy LITERALLY not see the car. This analogy only works if you LITERALLY cannot repair your gear or see its durability outside the instance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adire
*Emphasis mine*Quote:
Originally Posted by Adire
Yes, yes it is. It is YOUR fault that YOU forgot. Own up to YOUR mistake. This is YOUR problem. Get a sticky note, write repair gear on it, stick it on your monitor. Stick it on your keyboard before you log off, do something.
No, its a TERRIBLE, INNACURATE, and... well.... stupid comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adire
Then do something about it. As I mentioned above, put a sticky note on your monitor, keyboard, the glass you drink out of, w/e.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adire
They DID give you a way. Level a crafter. Carry Dark Matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
Sounds legit to me. Repair vendors in town? They're in town, with a forge, etc to repair. Cheap. Having to have a portable forge or specialized enough to be a NON-COMBATANT crafter haul his butt to the most dangerous places in the realm? Yeah, charge more. That is a legit, lore reason. You mentioned he has bodygaurds in one of your prior posts, well he has to pay them to take his NON-COMBATANT butt out there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
Although now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not sure I've seen a NPC repair with dark matter before. Have you? -
03-23-2016, 05:50 PMEidolonHave you ever noticed, a majority of the time, that there is an NPC we talk to outside the dungoun - frequently, a member of a Grand Company, who stands at the entrance going "It's dangerous in here. Make sure you have your allies with you as you go deeper." <DUTY UNLOCKED>Quote:
Originally Posted by Jijifli
This is why I've been saying it'd be really easy to have the NPC venture in deeper, just to the entrance. Stopping there, some light flavor text stating he'll support you and hold at the entrance while waiting for you would easily validate it 9 times out of 10. I can't think of much of any situation where this wouldn't work. And where it wouldn't work, could probably be handled by something similar in the area.
For example; the Antitower. They could have one of the broom/frog subordinates follow you in that can repair your gear. A member of a GC/Idylshire wouldn't fit in this case. Same with library.
Someone mentioned the Aery before. It'd be easy to have a Dragoon follow you and hold the entrance; do recall - we all made it in, including Eistinien. Dragoons would definitely want to make a move on Nidhogg's lair, so it makes plenty of sense for them to be there.
The aery? Could easily put the same dragon that TAKES YOU TO THE ENTRANCE OF THE DUNGOUN and could be seeking to help you repair.
In many cases, the groundwork is there. The only point of contention that I can't really speak on - is how much 'work' it would be to add an NPC. Stating that adding one NPC to each dungoun at the start would take a lot of work is questionable at best, but I am not going to claim to understand how much work it would be for SE to add in an NPC. The fact that we can easily add NPC's to our houses at any position, makes me think that it would be pretty easy. Easier than reprogramming the game to allow people to repair eachother's gear, as well as allowing it to be done while in a dungoun (An action that's not capable right now.)
I've actually yielded that putting it in places like Void Ark, Midas, Gordias, etc. wouldn't be very good. Those are raids, and are considered midcore content. They're also short enough that it's not really going to require an NPC - well, at least in the case of Gordias and Midas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zantitrach
The Void Ark, actually, would be possible to have one of the sky pirates (You know, the ones who took you there) at the entrance. THESE GUYS ALSO APPEAR AFTER YOU BEAT THE LAST BOSS. It's not completely unreasonable that Pirates that come to the very end would be at the start after having taken you to the Void Ark.
But an area like World of Darkness would have to be a named NPC - this would be more difficult, but not completely impossible.I mean, would it be completely unreasonable to have G'raha Tia at the entrance to World of DArkness and able to help repair your gear?
I've never met a pure crafter who doesn't do battle, unless they were an alt. Does my evidence make yours invalid?Quote:
I've met more pure crafters than people who have had gear break in a dungeon/trial/etc.
I'm confused by this. I think everyone can agree that Repair NPC's help remove gil from the economy. They're a good thing for the economy. Just like how even repairs done by a player can hopefully remove gil from the economy (Buying the dark matter.)Quote:
Got any proof of how much gil it sucks out of the economy? If not, then I'm not going to indulge you any further on this.
A majority, I should say then. Nitpicking on the details, but when I paint in a broad stroke like that you are right, I do a disservice to people who give other reasons, regardless of how easy it is to contest them. A lot of people, so far, have stressed that their feelings would be hurt and that it "Takes away their benefit" (Even though, really, it doesn't.)Quote:
*Emphasis Mine*
No, it hasn't. If you're not going to read the thread, don't comment.
There's nothing really to suggest that they made the duty timer 1 hour in order to say "Finish it by 1 hour or else." But I think that, unfortunately, this is going to be a He Said She Said kinda deal. That same image doesn't answer why the duty timer exists in raids, which people have consistently put in 10+ hours into to clear said content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cherie
I've spent the time leading up to the kickout for duties in the early days, trying to teach people. It's always a little saddening to part ways with them, but sometimes, I have more fun playing this game for the social interactions than clearing of content. This was especially evident when the game first came out, and people didn't outgear dungouns while leveling and making them so easy.Quote:
I'm not spending more than a hour in Lost City HM with someone just because they refuse to do their appropriate role (IE - tank goes "but I don't wanna tank, I'ma dps...rawr" I wish I was making that example up).
Actually, no, the perks that stay are exactly the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by Jijifli
+Able to repair anywhere, any time, with minimal difficulty (Not having to que into the dungoun, as you suggested, which is going through two loading screens, as well as having to change your settings to enable solo-que into dungouns)
+Able to repair above 100%
+Able to repair cheaper than using a vendor.
This does not take away from crafting, in any way shape or form. It is still the most advantagous to have your crafts leveled. This is for the more casual players, who may not have spent 2-5+ Months repairing their gear and have forgotten to repair their gear before a dungoun because they were our questing.
Same reason they can stand at the entrance of a dungoun to enable the dungoun instead of coming in and helping us out. How does that not 'raise eyebrows' with anyone? They're not engaging in combat because they expect you to do it because you're the Warrior of Light / Adventurer they pulled in. But they are there to offer support, guide, and lead.Quote:
If you want to tell me why that guard is standing there to repair your gear completely randomly in the dungeon instead of helping you out doesn't raise any eyebrows, I'd love to hear it.
Don't forget that regular combat (Killing mobs on the way to a target) gives consistent hits to your armor's durability. Someone who enters into a dungoun at 11% durability, for example, would likely get 10% after the first pull. I remember forgetting to check my durability because I spent a day grinding out dungouns for my relic back in 2.X, and biting my lips wondering "Is my gear going to survive to the end of the dungoun?"Quote:
Two deaths barely hits your gear. If you're doing from fully repaired to broken in 2 deaths, I want to know what you're doing because clearly it's not the deaths. I don't have DoH to repair. I can take 20+ deaths without breaking my accessories, forget armor.
Negligence to do something is not necessarily willfully doing something. It just implies someone made a mistake, which is a human error. I can't tell you how often my gear hits 10% because I neglect it for periods of time. But I can repair it anywhere, so the warning (10%) actually serves me well. And sometimes I'll remember to do it at 90% and get 190% on it.Quote:
]If you're going to say that underperforming if not is the reason, then they weren't going to perform up anyways. Obviously, they can't just press a key to see their equipment.
I'd notice if I went in with an i90 Spear instead of an i210 spear, but I think that's because I care about my damage in general and making sure that things go smoothly. I hate weakening DPS, I want to make things fast because that's my role.Quote:
My point of gear checking is I've had people go in with gear not knowing they had certain things on (Like a roleplay set.) It just slows things down. Hell, even I managed to go in with Ilvl 90 daggers instead of 210 on NIN on expert and nobody even noticed until we ended because stuff still died super fast.
Slippery sloap arguements, I have already pointed out, are a fallacy. Currently, yes, adding repair NPC's to dungouns would be a quality of life improvement, because it enables people to repair their gear in a dungoun. Currently, there is the potential for someone's gear to break with no recourse to fix it in the dungoun. Your advice to 'just check it before' is great in hindsight, but is poor in practice of the actuality of it happening.Quote:
How does it promote QoL? "Oh now anyone can repair anywhere now lol." There are people saying we shouldn't need DoH for any melding. I've even seen people claim we shouldn't need someone to craft the new gear to get it, and that we should just be rewarded it. With every single thing you remove that DoH has as a good advantage, it becomes less popular. In fact, this will promote more perks being removed. If this passed and the melding didn't, then there'd be complaints until it happened. Then if that passed, why do we have to have them craft it? Before you know it, DoH is a joke in every way.
Now, I'll address your slope. I do like the idea of melding being available to all, but I understand why people don't want it. The reason I think this is different, is because of the fact that Melds aren't actually required. You do not need melds on your gear for your gear to be effective - melds are maximizing. Melds are a luxury.
However, if your gear hits 0%, you are basically dead weight after a certain point. If every piece is broken, you may as well just take off all your gear, because you are literally completely trash to the party at that point.
This is why I don't agree with this fallacy. It just doesn't work in the context of the debate. ONe is required to being able to play (Having your gear above 0%), the other is purely a luxury.
This has happened to me before. I had a good group. But our tank's gear broke. This was before the patch that was added that removed the ability to reque back in - "Kick me real quick, I need to go repair."Quote:
But if you REALLY want me to put more cons, then here. Horrible groups don't break after someone never repaired. gear will be fixed, so they could put effort (unlikely) to doing what they need to do correctly. You won't need to level DoH to repair items.
And repeat on this con. It hurts DoH. There is no but on it. It. Hurts. DoH.
10 minutes later, we were still waiting for him. There was no way for us to take the dungoun without him, and we couldn't seem to get our ranks replenished. We had to disband, because of that mistake. (He probably couldn't get our dungoun to pop, in retrospect.)
You keep saying "It hurts DoH." I don't think you understand what that word means. [/PrincessBride]
This does not affect DoH, because as I pointed out above, the DoH still has multiple benefits, and all benefits of having DoH are completely retained. The only difference is, you're now not exclusively the only one who can repair in a dungoun. But you're still able to repair anywhere in the dungoun, at any time, able to exceed 100%.
Quote:
Maybe those points keep being thrown at you because they're legit problems? You should be able to keep an eye on your gear as someone that does COMBAT as your preferred way. The point is that combat players and DoH players work together. You can supply the items, and they can make it. They can repair it. They can fix it and make you stronger. Why should they lose benefit because you don't want to literally press the c key to see your gear is breaking and that maybe you should go talk to a repair guy.
If you're damaging full to queue pop, you're doing something wrong. So wrong in fact, that I think you wouldn't be much help in the dungeon anyways.
I've already contested these points multiple times, but people just parrot them and get refuted just as quickly. That's part of a debate, though, is stressing your point and proving/disproving with evidence. -
03-23-2016, 06:54 PMZantitrachNo, it doesn’t. We practically had a suicide mission to the Aery. While Dragoons would WANT to go there IN-FORCE, they would have to retcon a LARGE portion of the story to get more dragoons in there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
What?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
What? Those places have constant mechanics wipes. Great place for repairs. And what about Bismarck EX? Ravana EX? TEX, IEX, etc. Those are not raid content. But there’s 0 reason for an NPC vendor to be within a stone’s throw of Ifrit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
Yes, yes it would. He has no training, and would have to have a HUGE amount of his lore changed (he has a lot of it in various snippets through the unlocking of the Crystal Tower raids) to meet this criteria.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
This was in response to OP’sQuote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
This is purely circumstantial and not a data-center wide constant. You should read the points that I respond to for context.Quote:
How often do you see pure crafters anyways? I don't know about you, but I can count on one hand the number of people who exclusively craft I've met.
I’ve got 3 people in my raid group alone who ONLY leveled crafting so they could repair during battle, etc. They. HATE. Crafting. So yes, it ONLY takes away their benefit. SE gonna refund them the time it took to do that?Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
Because we’re the all powerful Warrior of Light, and they’re Nobody Boot-stain with 0 capability to assist IN the dungeon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
You’re right here, but ironically negligence also implies YOUR failure to do something. YOUR failure, YOUR responsibility. YOU need to fix it. If you are negligent AND you still don’t fix the issue, then yes, it is WILLFILLY doing it. As you are WILLFULLY not fixing your negligence.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
There's no refutation, they say one thing, you say the opposite, neither of it is 100% fact, its all opinion. Your proving your point with “Evidence” is just as paper thin as everybody else's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
And I'm going to sound like a jerk here, but now that I see that its intentional from all your posts Eidolon, there is no d-u-n-g-o-u-n. -
03-23-2016, 07:12 PMSquigley
While we're waiting for this wonderful feature to be implemented, here's a workaround:
1.) Write "Check gear" on a post-it note
2.) Stick the note on your display
3.) ???
4.) Profit!
Yeah, I'm serious! I kept forgetting to gather soils for our FC gardeners, so I just put a post-it on my display as a reminder and it helped.
The game does remind you in BIG text in the middle of the screen to repair your gear when the condition reaches 10%. After that dung you should head straight to the repair NPC. Unless you forget. If so, see workaround. -
03-23-2016, 07:17 PMEidolonReally? It'd be pretty easy to say "We attempted to send a scouting party, but the defenses of the Aery saw most my allies fall. I've managed to survive by hiding amongst the rocks, but I don't know how much longer I can stay hidden."Quote:
Originally Posted by Zantitrach
Having such an NPC adds to the desperation of the atmosphere, and the "No going back now." kinda feeling that the Aery created with Nidhogg's lair.
As another pointed out, Lore is maleable. Lazy writing being preventative is not a reason to me to not do something. All it is, is a cheap and lazy excuse.
Ah bloody 'ell, in this case I was referring to Sohm Al. Appologies for the mistake on my part. (Those two dungouns, I always mix them up, heh.)Quote:
What?
I agree completely with this. However, again, consider the difference:Quote:
What? Those places have constant mechanics wipes. Great place for repairs. And what about Bismarck EX? Ravana EX? TEX, IEX, etc. Those are not raid content. But there’s 0 reason for an NPC vendor to be within a stone’s throw of Ifrit.
Ifrit -> Doesn't have you killing packs of mobs to the end, as well there are three bosses compared to the trials just being one boss. This was my major point - that these things aren't as in-need of it because it's substantially less likely for it to be a scenario that your gear would break. I have conceded this point before - that I would prefer it to only be for dungouns. Trials/raids do not apply to my request.
However, I could easily justify an NPC being in the start of each zone for the 'catch up' raids (Crystal Tower, Void ark) - it is the raiding where I may or may not be able to put NPC's in there. And I'm perfectly fine with that, as I said, I don't want to put them there.
His lack of training does not stop him from coming all the way to the end after we clear the path, and thus should not stop him from standing at the entrance saying "I will follow as soon as it is safe." He is clearly following us, so no, the lore is not stretched in the least in this scenario.Quote:
Yes, yes it would. He has no training, and would have to have a HUGE amount of his lore changed (he has a lot of it in various snippets through the unlocking of the Crystal Tower raids) to meet this criteria.
The point was, the 'evidence' in both scenarios is subjective. It does not make any point more/less valid, but I suppose you are right in this regard - it is better for me not to touch this one as it's moreso just fuel interjecting in this scenario.Quote:
This was in response to OP’s
This is purely circumstantial and not a data-center wide constant. You should read the points that I respond to for context.
No, it doesn't take away their benefit, because they still:Quote:
I’ve got 3 people in my raid group alone who ONLY leveled crafting so they could repair during battle, etc. They. HATE. Crafting. So yes, it ONLY takes away their benefit. SE gonna refund them the time it took to do that?
+Can repair over 100%, making it substantially more useful than an NPC.
+Can repair CHEAPER than using an NPC.
+Can repair AT ANY TIME, including during combat.
+Can repait at ANY PLACE, not requiring to talk to an NPC to do it.
So no, it does not take away from their benefits, in any way, shape or form. it is still useful to them to have it.
Point is, the NPC standing at the entrance on the outside of the duty, and the NPC standing at the entrance on the inside of the duty is exactly the same. In both scenarios, they are doing nothing special at all. They are just standing there as a 'guard' of sorts, and this applies to all the NPC's.Quote:
Because we’re the all powerful Warrior of Light, and they’re Nobody Boot-stain with 0 capability to assist IN the dungeon.
I've already taken the time to fix my mistake. However, I can not fix the mistakes of others. Thus, I would like SE to add a failsafe to make sure that other people are protected. There is only so much I, as an individual player, can do.Quote:
You’re right here, but ironically negligence also implies YOUR failure to do something. YOUR failure, YOUR responsibility. YOU need to fix it. If you are negligent AND you still don’t fix the issue, then yes, it is WILLFILLY doing it. As you are WILLFULLY not fixing your negligence.
And again, making a mistake and being negligent, while it is the fault of the person, is still a human mistake. It happens.
Let's think of it this way. There are rules in many scenarios that require attention, second-checks and verifications, that protect from negligence. Under your proposed system, we wouldn't need these second-checks and verifications built into the system, because everyone should "Just not be negligent."
The fact of the matter is, systems are in place to protect people from negligence and mistakes, because they are needed. They may seem redundant at times, but the purpose is simple - to protect the lowest common denominator from making a mistake.
Quite the opposite, I've poitned out exact lines of dialogue, NPC's that could apply to the zones, how it can be used to supplement the lore, the actual benefits that crafter's have over those who use NPC's and how it does not take away from their benefits.Quote:
There's no refutation, they say one thing, you say the opposite, neither of it is 100% fact, its all opinion. Your proving your point with “Evidence” is just as paper thin as everybody else's.
The scenarios I can not truly refute, are the ones that neither side can claim to understand - such as the complexity of the coding that one other poster claimed to see. They stated it would be "Easier to just make it so you can repair in dungouns", but there's no proof of that. I, however, do not claim it is "Easier to just add NPC's to dungouns", but rather, made a concession and said "I would rather see both" as well as I do not believe the fact that "It might be hard :c" is a reason to not add something to the game.
Ah yeah thanks, I always spell it wrong, I'll keep an eye on it and try to fix it. XD I don't mind someone correcting my spelling and will actually thank you for it, it is a known issue with me but when I am typing so much I sometimes neglect a little on the spelling. I'll run a spellcheck next time to help out if it bothers ya.Quote:
And I'm going to sound like a jerk here, but now that I see that its intentional from all your posts Eidolon, there is no d-u-n-g-o-u-n.
See, I'm a little mixed on this. I think postit notes are great, but ... I'll be honest, I don't know many people who want to put post it notes on their computer. Especially if they do more with it (Such as work, or even just other games) that pertain specifically to FFXIV all over their computers?Quote:
Originally Posted by Squigley
And I also don't keep any Post-It notes around. <_< I mostly use technology for my reminders and notes. -
03-23-2016, 07:47 PMZantitrachThis dragoon (lore) who has 100% focused on martial powers can suddenly fix your gear? How? He has no crafting/repair training!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
His lack of training for REPAIR. He's not a CRAFTER. There would have to be loooots of dialogue ret-conned and redone. You can't just suddenly him show up, oh by the way I craft, lemme fix your gear plx.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
No, if there's a NPC at the beginning of the dungeon, they no longer will NEED to repair mid combat as they can literally do it right when the instance starts so the gear won't be break mid-combat. They will not NEED to repair to 199%, as they can do it right when the instance starts so the extra 100% is useless. By having the NPC Right there when the instant starts it eliminates the positives OF the positives you list. To clarify:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
Repairing over 100% is POINTLESS when EVERY instance you do has a repair NPC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
Repairing during combat is pointless when the beginning of the instance has a repair NPC (0 chance of it breaking during combat if you repair right when the instance starts and if it breaks during a long dungeon then you HAD to have died, which means you're back at the beginning and can use the repair NPC again).Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
Completely pointless “perk” to begin with. We still have to talk to an NPC to buy dark matter, albeit slightly less often. Flip-side it… the repair NPC lets me repair ALL my gear without having to change classes, something that I use FREQUENTLY for my crafting classes as shared gear means the MH/OH don’t lose as much durability and are not at the same durability loss as the rest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
This is the ONLY “perk” they now have, and you know what, if you have the crafting classes… you are NOT hurting for money. So yet again….this.is.pointless.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
The “Failsafe” you want is to be able to request repairs from crafters in your party. Which people have mentioned MANY times in this thread. NOT adding a repair NPC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
No, I have NOT proposed a system. Don’t put words in a person’s mouth. I’m in favor of me, the CRAFTER being able to repair other person’s gear. Have them carry the dark matter like me and request it like a meld. I’m happy. I want no compensation for this or anything, I want them to be RESPONSIBLE and carry dark matter or repair their gear before they queue in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
No offense, your “exact lines of dialogue” for lore purposes are shoddy and do not fit half the scenarios you claim they do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
I knew what you meant, so it didn’t “bother” me. I was more just shocked that you’re intentionally spelling it that way and not accidentally as it is not a way to spell that word. Ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
And I’d like to propose my question again. Has an NPC ever repaired gear with dark matter? If not then the lore is that it’s the player character’s extensive crafting experience that allows the use of this dark matter. Which means you’re not just asking for Joe Schmoe NPC repair to every instance, but an actual crafting aficionado (lore-wise) to every instance, which is even MORE un realistic. -
03-23-2016, 08:30 PMEidolonThe Dragoons (Lore) are all about effectively fighting Dragons. Part of any combat experience, is frequently the upkeep of gear. If your armor breaks while in the field, you will be able to repair it in the interim of the fight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zantitrach
Someone who neglects this is very possible to exist, but someone who exercises the above example is equally as likely to exist. It's not unrealistic for someone to be able to repair their own gear.
He's an adventurer, is he not? Is there anything to imply he does not craft? Anything to imply that he does not have the capability of repair? Further, you are taking game elements (The level of your jobs) as elements of lore. Tataru had story added to her that allowed her to weave, but nothing before that (IIRC, going by memory on this one, sorry) ishgard that suggested she should be able to repair gear.Quote:
His lack of training for REPAIR. He's not a CRAFTER. There would have to be loooots of dialogue ret-conned and redone. You can't just suddenly him show up, oh by the way I craft, lemme fix your gear plx.
This goes back around to the subject I originally brought up - these things can be used to enrich the characters, using a variety of unique methods. For example, he might have a device he found while adventuring that repairs the gear - so that he himself isn't the crafter, but he has a way to do it. Such things can add depth and flavor to the characters that are placed that is sorely lacking at times (And at other times, that we just overlook - such as NPC's in areas we can talk to in the interim.)
I can't really agree with this. Repairing over 100% is a huge benefit, because it means not only do you get the full benefit of the repair, every single time, but you also can go longer from the same repairs than someone who repairs otherwise.Quote:
No, if there's a NPC at the beginning of the dungeon, they no longer will NEED to repair mid combat as they can literally do it right when the instance starts so the gear won't be break mid-combat. They will not NEED to repair to 199%, as they can do it right when the instance starts so the extra 100% is useless. By having the NPC Right there when the instant starts it eliminates the positives OF the positives you list. To clarify
Repairing over 100% is POINTLESS when EVERY instance you do has a repair NPC.
Going from 120%, as an example, to 0%, will take longer than 100% to 0%.
Going from 120%, and repairing again at 20%, will put you back to 120%, just like repairing at 0% will put you back to 100%. However, in the second example, you lose the use of your gear for that 0%, compared to a crafter who can do it (in combat) or likewise before it becomes a problem (at 20%)
I won't deny, being able to repair my own gear is a godsend. If I couldn't do it, I'd probably have been made useless a number of times in dungeons.
So, I can't really agree that it eliminates the positives of repairing over 100%. The benefits of it still exist.
I can effectively consider it gil lost and profit lost if I repair at the start of the dungeon instead of repairing my gear using Dark Matter. The reason for this, is because of the fact that the rapairs from an NPC cost more than the Dark Matter costs, and I only get up to 100%. Meanwhile, Dark Matter gives me 100% on top of my current repairs - and will allow me to wait a little longer for my next repair (Assuming I repaired before 0%.)Quote:
Repairing during combat is pointless when the beginning of the instance has a repair NPC (0 chance of it breaking during combat if you repair right when the instance starts and if it breaks during a long dungeon then you HAD to have died, which means you're back at the beginning and can use the repair NPC again).
The benefit of being a crafter is definitely there, you just have to be willing to accept that the only benefit you truly lose, is the exclusivity of being able to repair in the dungoun (as a person who leveled the crafts.) I think that prioritizing the well being of the party that might potentially suffer the mistake, is more important than the well being of someone's feelings because they are no longer part of a group that can do it exclusively.
Completely pointless “perk” to begin with. We still have to talk to an NPC to buy dark matter, albeit slightly less often. Flip-side it… the repair NPC lets me repair ALL my gear without having to change classes, something that I use FREQUENTLY for my crafting classes as shared gear means the MH/OH don’t lose as much durability and are not at the same durability loss as the rest.
Not all crafters are rich. Many people who - as I believe you quoted - only leveled their crafters exclusively for the purpose of repairing mid raid and hate crafting - are likely not wealthy due to crafting.Quote:
This is the ONLY “perk” they now have, and you know what, if you have the crafting classes… you are NOT hurting for money. So yet again….this.is.pointless.
When I first leveled my crafters, for example, I had millions of gil. The reasons for this, was because I would do run selling (Ah, I better duck, I am sure someone will hate me for this.) - it had nothing to do with my crafts being leveled.
Likewise, I have had friends who have said, "I leveled my crafts but I'm not rich." It is all about effort, so to use one's wealth as a basis of the validity of adding this, is flawed because it does not take all playstyles into consideration.
Actually, I have taken note of this many times, and have contested it for only two reasons:Quote:
The “Failsafe” you want is to be able to request repairs from crafters in your party. Which people have mentioned MANY times in this thread. NOT adding a repair NPC.
1) I do not believe the addition of an NPC to the start, as well as being able to request repairs, are mutually exclusive. I believe that both would be great additions to the game.
2) This being exclusively added, means that people will need to remember to keep a stack of DArk Matter with them, as well as have someone else in the party who is able to repair their gear (So you are banking on having both of these things.)
2b) Should you allow the Dark Matter to be consumed from the requested players inventory, then you will likely see more hesitation from others about this because of the fact that they are effectively "Paying" a player to repair their gear, and if you add in the ability to pay them gil, you have created a scenario in which money can be moved between servers. Even capping it off, it wouldn't alleviate this concern that was also mentioned in the topic.
How should I say this -Quote:
No, I have NOT proposed a system. Don’t put words in a person’s mouth. I’m in favor of me, the CRAFTER being able to repair other person’s gear. Have them carry the dark matter like me and request it like a meld. I’m happy. I want no compensation for this or anything, I want them to be RESPONSIBLE and carry dark matter or repair their gear before they queue in.
I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but your suggestion is moreso that we don't need failsafes because people should be accountable for it. While this is a great thing in theory, it is very poor in practice. That is the point I want to make to you.
If you take away failsafes, you create a scenario that is far more dangerous (Which was the primary point, if albeit poorly communicated, of that statement.) Even your suggestion, in your own words, 'have them carry matter lik me', is extremely poor, because it
A) relies on them being in a party with someone like you
b) requires them to have the matter, taking up an inventory slot in an already limited inventory.
It's a very poor system to protect and help the players, and actually, in contrast, it is only trying to add more benefits to DoH. If one can argue against taking away benefits from DoH, why do we need to give them more benefits?
Currently, a DoH:
1) Is very useful in terms of end-game raiding, especially in the initial parts of it. Most cutting-edge raiders, world firsters, etc, were using crafted gear, because it was Uncapped (unlike the raid content we had, which I personally hate, but it is an undeniable benefit)
2) In theory, COULD have lots of money from their crafting (Though this is not garunteed, it is a potential benefit of it)
3) Is capable of repairing anywhere, anytime, at a cheaper rate, above 100%.
4) Have more immediate access to new items, due to being able to make them themselves. Crafters, those who make it, for all intents and purposes have "First access" to all new glamors. Followed by those with large wallets. Followed by the common players when the prices fall. Take for example, Thavnarian gear - it was originally millions of gil. I helped people farm it and make it as a crafter.
Well, I'm not a writer, so I won't pretend that my writings are perfect. However, I will say, it's more credible to say that an NPC is quoted at the very entrance of a dungoun and likewise that - they could easily be moved inside in many scenarios, is more credible than saying "It goes against lore" without actually giving any citation. However, there are a few cases where it might be rough - as you pointed out, such as the Aery. I can concede that it might take some creativity, but in that creativity, we create more depth within the world.Quote:
No offense, your “exact lines of dialogue” for lore purposes are shoddy and do not fit half the scenarios you claim they do.
To me, that does not take away from the world. That only adds to it. Can we come to a consensus on that?
Yea I'll speak earnestly for a moment here, it is literal ignorance (lack of education of the correct spelling) on my end. It's how I always believed it was spelled as a child, and somerthing I have failed to rectify as an adult. Which is funny, because as you can tell - I am quite literate. But it is a failing that I aknowledge in my own life. XDQuote:
I knew what you meant, so it didn’t “bother” me. I was more just shocked that you’re intentionally spelling it that way and not accidentally as it is not a way to spell that word. Ever.
We actually don't know what method the NPC's use. It's a point where the gameplay is divergant from the actual lore. I doubt the NPC's see a menu pop up saying "Do you want to repair this Person's gear for $gil?" like it would be in The Gamer manga (Though that'd be awesome.)Quote:
And I’d like to propose my question again. Has an NPC ever repaired gear with dark matter? If not then the lore is that it’s the player character’s extensive crafting experience that allows the use of this dark matter. Which means you’re not just asking for Joe Schmoe NPC repair to every instance, but an actual crafting aficionado (lore-wise) to every instance, which is even MORE un realistic.
Simply, we could say they DO use materia, and the reason why it costs more from a Merchant is because of the fact that it is the profit margin for their repair (Charging for the service, but not the materials used.) For example, a blacksmith wouldn't charge you for his forge when he makes a hammer. However, he'd charge you a fair deal for the finished sword because that's the product he's providing. A bar doesn't charge you the cost of the establishment, but they might get an entry fee and their drinks are clearly higher than the cost of the actual cost because that's how they turn a profit.
So, for all intents and purposes, we do not know how NPC's go about repairs. However, it is done instantaneously, in a single transaction. The game does not Fade To Black to suggest a passage of time, which could be argued to imply that they do not take it back to the forge for reinforcement.
Does that satisfy for an answer to it? I do not want to say "They use it" or "They do not use it", because contextually speaking there is not any evidence (As I recall, please cite if you have a source that suggests otherwise!) that they do it one way or the other. All we have is situational evidence, which in a court of law, would really not hold up. I'd prefer to avoid it here, on both ends.
===
As an aside, while we may be para-quoting and discussing with one another, I would like to commend you on your maturity in terms of the discussion. It is a rare thing on the forums to meet someone who completely avoids defaulting to insults, and I respect it completely. -
03-23-2016, 08:31 PMLemuriaPlease don't put words into other people's mouths. I'm a crafter myself, moreover I have every single craft at level 60, and I have absolutely no problem with them adding a repair NPC to dungeons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Critical-Limit
Honestly, at this point repairs are nothing more than a nuisance rather than a game mechanic anyone really takes seriously these days. From your Lodestone profile, you don't have every craft leveled up enough to elicit repairs on anything except mage gear and accessories so this minor change would be to your benefit as much as it would to anyone else. Especially given your main is apparently Monk who uses more leathercraft than anything else, a class you only have at level 15.
Basically, not all of us crafters are against this idea. Don't presume it's only the non-crafters who support it.
Edit: Also, why does no one seem to understand the fact that we craftswomen/craftsmen can repair our equipment at a fraction of the cost of a repair merchant? We already have convenience and cost advantages. Is this not enough to quell the argument? -
03-23-2016, 09:09 PMXlantaa
It is not weird suggestion. On Star Wars The Old Republic, you can summon a repair droid for you and for people in your party, even inside a dungeon.
BUT, I will agree with people who don't want it. This only makes the people being lazy. I prefer the crafter method.
A thing that can be interesting is the request repair (like request meld). If you have Grade X Dark Matter, you can ask for repair to a member on your party that have the enough level to repair. THat's actually more interesting that add a simple NPC inside because yes.
I can't imagine a thing like enter a Savage Alexader and have a guy in a corner "Psst, eh, you, want a mend?" -
03-23-2016, 09:43 PMWinterLunaThis made me smirk so hard. *Enters T13* "Hey, that thing looks pretty big doesn't it? Not sure how I ended up in here.."Quote:
Originally Posted by Xlantaa
Edit: Again to other posters - it's not just a matter of whether NPC's would fit into the dungeon lore wise, it's adding all of these individual NPC's, which is something I'd rather SE not focus on right now. -
03-23-2016, 09:55 PMZantitrachMaintenance and upkeep are a far cry different from repairing. Can the Dragoon use a whetstone to sharpen his spear? Extremely likely. Can he gather ore from an area and makeshift some rivets to put his armor back together? No. Not likely at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
OP is an adventurer is he not?........Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
Not levels in the sense of levels, no. Levels in the sense of CRAFTING experience (lore wise) yes. If you pay attention to the dialogue in the crafting quests, it hits this concept wonderfully. i.e. I trust you to fix these level 5 leather boots, but not this level 38 jerkin because of your lack of experience (levels). They all talk about your “quality” of work, yadda yadda, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
This goes back to my counterpoint, you’re asking for THOUSANDS of lines of dialogue that need to be ret conned and re worked. This is not something SE needs to invest in to fix such a marginal issue (And yes, it IS marginal. Threads of this exact nature crop up less, and have fewer supporters than the “Bring back 1.0 booty, booty slider” threads)Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
But this ISN’T a benefit if there’s an NPC in every instance who can repair! I will 100% not carry dark matter around if I can just queue in and repair from the NPC. As you mention Inventory space is PRECIOUS, and I say that as a guy with 5 total retainers. As SOON as EVERY instance starts, I’ll just click the NPC and repair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
Thank goodness you had SE’s implemented FAILSAFE for this type of situation……
If the person cared about that in this argument at all, then they would level the crafter anyway to save repair costs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
They are not wealthy due to crafting, but from selling materials. They were all able to afford the MATS for 220 gear, and surprise I was able to craft BSM/LTW/WVR 220 gear, someone else was able to craft ARM/GSM/CRP gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
I too had a few million, from gathering. Although just by leveling my crafts I tripled that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
It IS all about effort. And if they don’t want to put EFFORT into the ONE thing they do, fighting (which requires REPAIRED gear) then they don’t deserve it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
Way too much work for SE developers to implement both solutions. One being far easier to manage (hint, its not the one adding NPC’s to every instance)Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
JUST like crafters! How fair is that! They get the BENEFIT and PERK of mid fight repairs, mid dungeon repairs WITHOUT having to level the crafting classes! All for the price of dark matter!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
Why on earth would there be payment. There’s no payment for melding. Don’t arbitrarily add it to the system.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
No, its still great in practice. It helps instill responsibility, thought, and care into people. The same reason in the real world employers prefer it if you have a good work history, or have attended college. It means you have to put in EFFORT in a TEAM (game in this case).Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
The failsafe IS to level a crafter and the ability to repair. No one is advocating to take it away. The failsafe is already there. We’ve advocating adding an addendum to that failsafe which is to carry dark matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
This happens once, maybe twice. Its been, what 8 months since HW launched and crafter’s were finally able to contribute to the raid scene with something besides potions/food?
And fighters could have millions from running content (Your aforementioned selling raids for instance *though this is not guaranteed, it is a potential benefit of it)Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
Agreed, the only perk. Although I still say it’s a marginal one if you’re a crafter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
Fighter’s have equal “first access”. The big name crafters on Diabolos for instance, Dev, Rahl’s, Grabbyhands, Sino (people who craft and not fight 90% of the time) don’t have time to do things that require large time sinks. Take for example(yours), Thavnarian gear, which required drops from maps. Take for example bardings, or house furnishings that require primal drops and etc. If we’re talking casuals, take for example the Coffin Lid (Mhachi Coffin) from Void Ark. Real crafters do not have the time to run hundreds of void arks for the off chance it drops and the off chance they’re able to roll on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
Yes, it would. However it also taxes the SE development team for stuff the MAJORITY of players would rather have them work on, new content and etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
While yes, there’s no clear cut “I use/don’t use dark matter” there is actual a huge amount of evidence to suggest they do not. The multiple broken items/gear throughout the storyline for plot purposes that can never be fixed with a simple dark matter (broken ships/items/relics/gear/parts). FFXIV says this about dark matterQuote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
It has recently been discovered that this substance of unknown origin has the faculty to assimilate with other forms of matter, effectively restoring them to their original condition.
It then varies an addendum of “common materials” to “This specific grade of dark matter has been shown to bond best precisely crafted items made from high-quality materials.” If it was as simple as using dark matter (which does not specify weapons/armor/rings/etc) then Mor Dhona should have been rebuilt in days, same for Idyllshire and etc. -
03-23-2016, 11:12 PMEidolonOP is an adventurer who has chosen not to persue being a desciple of Hand/Land. This should be just as valid a choice as saying that an NPC would choose not to follow it, just as it should be just as much a valid choice as saying an NPC DID choose to persue it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zantitrach
To suggest only Player Characters are capable of multiple professions is just silly. Especially when we have proof that, people like Tataru, who knew nothing of mining, could just put on an outfit and go mining in Mor Dhona. And yes, that was a level 50 outfit, so she must've been worth something at it. Levels are arbitrary when stacked up before Lore, so I don't use them as a meaning of defining what the PC's and NPC's are capable of doing.
They also consistently refer to your quality as being "Exception" and constantly going above and beyond their expectations, even when there is an NQ vs. HQ. Simply put, their dialogue is not proof of anything - other than that your character in terms of the lore (Story) is a 'master tradesmen proving him/herself as they go through the ranks.' It's more of a coming of age story than it is a story of progression. This is why even a level 50 craftsman doing a level 5 quest will still make sense.Quote:
Not levels in the sense of levels, no. Levels in the sense of CRAFTING experience (lore wise) yes. If you pay attention to the dialogue in the crafting quests, it hits this concept wonderfully. i.e. I trust you to fix these level 5 leather boots, but not this level 38 jerkin because of your lack of experience (levels). They all talk about your “quality” of work, yadda yadda, etc.
And let's not forget the potential disconnect of "You made this?!" after you could buy it from the MB or have a friend make it for you.
I'm not asking for thousands of dialogue lines. There's definitely not thousands of dungouns (Man it'd be interesting if there was, but no, SE had too much of a harder time maintaining 3 per update patch, not to mention 'thousands.'Quote:
This goes back to my counterpoint, you’re asking for THOUSANDS of lines of dialogue that need to be ret conned and re worked. This is not something SE needs to invest in to fix such a marginal issue (And yes, it IS marginal. Threads of this exact nature crop up less, and have fewer supporters than the “Bring back 1.0 booty, booty slider” threads)
At most, it would need, what, 50, maybe 60 lines? And even then, if you just re-use the same NPC model without the dialogue, it can be inferred that the same NPC that met you outside the dungoun came inside to see you off from the entrance of the actual dungoun. So, in theory, you could just make it an NPC that pops the dialogue box like anyone else.
The Dialogue can be used to Enrich the world, or to give continuity if you do not want to use text from the NPC. These are things that are beneficial to the game. Choosing to abstain from it, however, because it's "Too hard" or "Too much work" is a poor reason not to do something, because there is literally no benefit to it - save the fact that the publishers get it easier. And personally, I hold SE in high regard, and want to see them add more - not less.
You won't, but I and many of my crafter friends will. The reason being? Because it IS a benefit. It costs me less (And let's face it, I don't have millions on hand from runnign around spending more when I can spend less.)Quote:
But this ISN’T a benefit if there’s an NPC in every instance who can repair! I will 100% not carry dark matter around if I can just queue in and repair from the NPC. As you mention Inventory space is PRECIOUS, and I say that as a guy with 5 total retainers. As SOON as EVERY instance starts, I’ll just click the NPC and repair.
So, this comes down to a subjective opinion about which one we find more valuable. I personally, as someone who can repair my own armor without relying on the off chance of running into someone, will keep dark matter on me because it will always be useful to you. You, however, would find that use to be invalidated if they added it to the dungoun. That does not make either of us wrong, however - let me ask you this:
Wouldn't you rather have the choice, than no choice at all? Wouldn't you prefer to say, "You know what? I don't want to keep that one extra slot filled with Dark Matter. I'd rather pay for the luxury of the space being free by using the vendor."
Again, this is only a positive. You choosing to make that choice is good. Just as the addition of NPC's to the dungouns wouldn't take away someone's choice to level their Crafters. This is why the percieved threat of 'losing' something is false. The choice remains, but it creates a situation in which there is a failsafe to protect players from a mistake. That is good for everyone.
Except it's only a failsafe if you level those jobs. If you never level them, then there is no failsafe. This is why that is such a faulty reasoning - suggesting that the failsafe exists for those who do not currently* have it, means it is coming up short as a failsafe.Quote:
Thank goodness you had SE’s implemented FAILSAFE for this type of situation……
No, this is an effective arguement because someone with all crafts at 60 (Such as myself) does not want to use the NPC at the start, whcih is what you are trying to suggest they would do - because it would become 'useless' by your definition.Quote:
If the person cared about that in this argument at all, then they would level the crafter anyway to save repair costs.
Someone else, however, may prefer to pay the premium of an NPC to repair their gear (and clearly already do) but want more ready access to said NPC because of the limitations created by the Duty system of FFXIV.
If this were like any other MMO on the market, where you could exit the dungoun but maintain the party, repair your gear, and re-enter and resume your progress - this would not be a discussion. But because SE has opted for a system of "In the duty until you win it or quit it", they have created a situation that would benefit greatly from the addition of NPC's.
Aye, as I said, They are not wealthy due to crafting. To use this as a basis of the arguement is flawed.Quote:
They are not wealthy due to crafting, but from selling materials. They were all able to afford the MATS for 220 gear, and surprise I was able to craft BSM/LTW/WVR 220 gear, someone else was able to craft ARM/GSM/CRP gear.
Everyone works to earn gil differently, and prioritizes putting it into different things. Many people do not WANT to level crafters. Leveling crafters is boring and monotonous to me, but for me, it was worth it to do it. To someone else, it may not be worthwhile to do it, and that is fair for them. But again, this is about failsafes for those people who - in a game that says you can CHOOSE to do everything, should not be forcing you to do everything for basic quality of life changes.Quote:
I too had a few million, from gathering. Although just by leveling my crafts I tripled that.
It IS all about effort. And if they don’t want to put EFFORT into the ONE thing they do, fighting (which requires REPAIRED gear) then they don’t deserve it.
Who are you to say which is easier to manage? Let me give you a few examples of why I, personally, feel adding NPC's is easier.Quote:
Way too much work for SE developers to implement both solutions. One being far easier to manage (hint, its not the one adding NPC’s to every instance)
1) The NPC's already exist in the game world, thus the programming already exists.
2) The system already exists, thus the programming already exists.
3) NPC's exist in dungouns currently (Or rather, interactable objects), and thus programming already exists to have such things in dungouns (IIRC, we also have seen some interactable NPC's so it's not completely unlikely that it'd be hard to add the NPC's)
Now, let's compare this to your suggestion, and see why it is a bad idea:
1) The programming DOES NOT currently exist to repair other people's gear. This is BRAND NEW PROGRAMMING square enix has to add (back) into the game, that has been REMOVED since 1.0.
2) The programming DOES NOT currently exist that allows players to make exchanges within a duty, thus requiring you to ADD IN THE ABILITY TO TRADE WITH ONE ANOTHER within a duty, thus creating an even greater programming nightmare.
3) The concern that players will be capable of moving money BETWEEN SERVERS exist, as I am sure SE would add in the option to pay for repairs as it is a premium service.
4) The concern that players will not carry Dark Matter into duty to request a repair from someone, or likewise that they will even MEET someone who can repair the gear.
As far as I am concerned, it is FAR EASIER to add NPC's and a line of dialogue, or just straight up copy-pasting NPC's from the dungeon's very entrance than it is to create a whole new system within the game to give you what you want.
Except they DON'T Get that benefit if the crafter isn't there, thus the system fails on the fundamental level that the very situation it seeks to prevent, can still exist. Not only that, but the ease of access to request a repair midfight would likely be a lot harder than a player repairing their own gear mid fight (As I believe both of us have admitted to.)Quote:
JUST like crafters! How fair is that! They get the BENEFIT and PERK of mid fight repairs, mid dungeon repairs WITHOUT having to level the crafting classes! All for the price of dark matter!
Meanwhile, an NPC at the very start of the dungoun, is only accessible while outside of combat, comes at a premium cost, repairs it to a max of 100% and likewise can not be accessed from anywhere else but that one spot.
What? Yes there is. The whole "Request Meld" system in the game involves having the OPTION of adding payment via the Meld interface, and true to form - some people expect "Tips" for their work. There are also people who do it for free, but it does not change that the Melding system (Whcih is our parallel in this case) inherantly has that feature built in, and it should be expected that the feature would be added to a Reapir rquest system as well.Quote:
Why on earth would there be payment. There’s no payment for melding. Don’t arbitrarily add it to the system.
It's actualyl terrible in practice, because you are STILL neglecting all the factors that have to line up that allow you to use it. Teamwork doesn't matter if not a single member of the team has the requisite skillset. Again, this accountability does not work, because there is no way to garuntee crafters, and there is no way to garuntee that someone will have dark matter. And saying "Be responsible" is a poor excuse when it's something that could be prevented with a better system.Quote:
No, its still great in practice. It helps instill responsibility, thought, and care into people. The same reason in the real world employers prefer it if you have a good work history, or have attended college. It means you have to put in EFFORT in a TEAM (game in this case).
Here's the thing:Quote:
The failsafe IS to level a crafter and the ability to repair. No one is advocating to take it away. The failsafe is already there. We’ve advocating adding an addendum to that failsafe which is to carry dark matter.
Leveling a crafter, is purely a luxury. It is NOT a failsafe, because by the very definition of the word failsafe :
a system or plan that comes into operation in the event of something going wrong or that is there to prevent such an occurrence.
Now, your idea doesn't fit this definition, because it does not come into operation in the event that something goes wrong. Rather, your system falls more accurately and more succinctly into the definition of a pre-emptive measure, than a failsafe. Which is, again, great and all well and good, but does not resolve any issues that may come up from what the OP was originally trying to resolve.
"Since HW launched." vs. "Since ARR launched.Quote:
This happens once, maybe twice. Its been, what 8 months since HW launched and crafter’s were finally able to contribute to the raid scene with something besides potions/food?
Since HW Launched:
3.2+ : Crafters are very useful to the end-game raiding scene, and some people like it, some people hate it. I won't discredit either side on this, it's all opinion.
3.0+: Crafters are only somewhat useful to the endgame raiding scene, particularly in the fact that they could make accessories that were BiS for tanks until they started getting better pieces.
Since ARR launched, both of the above (obviously) as well as:
Gear in many cases was BiS for many classes from Crafters for the end-game raiding scene. This meant to be the best at your job (See: Bard) you had to get these items crafted.
Even without these listed items, Crafted accessories are still the only way for non-tank classes to raise their Vitality without sacrificing a primary stat, so it still had its use for initial progression raiding.
It's less likely that a fighter will sit on millions of gil in my personal opinion. Runselling is particularly only capable on more hardcore groups, and isnt' something the common midcore player can do. The ease of access to this is harder to reach, to say the least - so much so that even I've fallen out of the end-game selling scene (And, for the reference, I've been selling since arouind T9, I wasn't able to for T5, and also sold for T13. I did Thordan-EX sells, but I didn't make much off it.)Quote:
And fighters could have millions from running content (Your aforementioned selling raids for instance *though this is not guaranteed, it is a potential benefit of it)
A crafter requires an investment, but if you're willing to apply effort after the investment, you can definitely turn a profit. It's less garunteed and harder to pull off because the Battlecrafters have to have 6 other competent people to sell content. And the very same materials they can turn a profit by farming, can be bought by Crafters that then turn a profit off what they bought (if the crafters don't just farm the mats themselves like I do.)
Will have to agree to disagree on this one, sorry. But I think that's subjective, let's leave it at that.Quote:
Agreed, the only perk. Although I still say it’s a marginal one if you’re a crafter.
Hmmm. It's hard to say in this case who truly has access, then, because there IS A good dynamic on these items that require an equal measure of combat and an equal measure of crafting. I guess we should say, the ones who are most likely to have access then - are neither crafters nor fighters, but rather, those with the most money - so my revised list would shift them up a single slot.Quote:
Fighter’s have equal “first access”. The big name crafters on Diabolos for instance, Dev, Rahl’s, Grabbyhands, Sino (people who craft and not fight 90% of the time) don’t have time to do things that require large time sinks. Take for example(yours), Thavnarian gear, which required drops from maps. Take for example bardings, or house furnishings that require primal drops and etc. If we’re talking casuals, take for example the Coffin Lid (Mhachi Coffin) from Void Ark. Real crafters do not have the time to run hundreds of void arks for the off chance it drops and the off chance they’re able to roll on it.
However, when you talk about a pure DoW/M, vs. a pure DoH/L, which one has the stereotype of being "Rich" and haivng more access to money?
To argue Majority from either of us would be flawed. Instead, stick to the merits of the discussion at hand - don't try to strawman it and say "My side is the majority so it's right." and I'll pay you the same respect by not countering that "My side is the majority because most casual players don't craft."Quote:
Yes, it would. However it also taxes the SE development team for stuff the MAJORITY of players would rather have them work on, new content and etc.
This could be acounted for, however, in the fact that the ships, items, relics, etc. are far too broken to be able to properly use. Think of it more like this - your armor is constantly taking hits, but it's holding up. It's sound. At 10%, it's in danger, but it's still held together. Its' effectiveness at blocking an attack, is always at 100% all the way down to 1%.Quote:
While yes, there’s no clear cut “I use/don’t use dark matter” there is actual a huge amount of evidence to suggest they do not. The multiple broken items/gear throughout the storyline for plot purposes that can never be fixed with a simple dark matter (broken ships/items/relics/gear/parts). FFXIV says this about dark matter
It has recently been discovered that this substance of unknown origin has the faculty to assimilate with other forms of matter, effectively restoring them to their original condition.
It then varies an addendum of “common materials” to “This specific grade of dark matter has been shown to bond best precisely crafted items made from high-quality materials.” If it was as simple as using dark matter (which does not specify weapons/armor/rings/etc) then Mor Dhona should have been rebuilt in days, same for Idyllshire and etc.
At 0%, it breaks in such a way that it becomes useless, but can be repaired. This can be something as simple as the straps being broken, to the armor having been cleaved in two and needs to be welded back together. In the end, it doesn't matter - what matters is, "I can't use this shield" because it can't be held to block anymore.
The fact that our armor is fully effective until 0% suggets to me that we at 0% are not reaching the same dilapidated state of the very stuff you suggest is being fixed in the world at large. -
03-24-2016, 12:13 AMFyce
Since some people don't want to see the obvious flaws of a repair NPC in dungeons, well, here's another one: having such NPC will create more problems than it can currently solve.
People will start to wrap their minds around the idea that it doesn't matter anymore if they don't prepare themselves before going on duty. But this will only be true for dungeons (more or less, it doesn't prevent you from not having enough gils to repair, or to forget food/potions... It doesn't prevent you to be in the wrong job when queing either).
People will actually start to forget even more to repair outside duties. This will lead to even more cases of players with broken equipment in trials and other duties where you wont have the possibility to repair.
People like the OP will have to think even more about it and ask themselves "What I'm queuing for again? Is there a repair NPC in there?".
The only way to solve this would be to have such NPC everywhere, in every duty, for every situation. Yes, this means that you'd need to have an NPC right inside Ifrit's fire arena, on Bismark bait floating island, even on the freaking Chrysalis, right infront of the boss. This NPC would then magically leave the arena once the battle start, and come back if there's a wipe.
Stop breaking immersion because you can't think about being prepared before going on duty.
It's like plumbers asking everyone to have all the tools in their house incase they forget theirs. It's silly. Stop it. -
03-24-2016, 12:27 AMZantitrachNo, they gave Tataru lore (with a fair bit of credibility) that she's been mining for awhile and she just ordered a new hammer and starts the whole fiasco. This gets explained over DOZENS of lines in the quest. I emphasize dozens because this is the type of information required for lore reasons for these random NPC's in the beginning of every instance.Quote:
Especially when we have proof that, people like Tataru, who knew nothing of mining, could just put on an outfit and go mining in Mor Dhona.
http://ffxiv.gamerescape.com/wiki/Picking_up_the_Sledge
There's 43 dungeons alone (33 Trials, 25 raids if you were curious [again OP and others in this thread are asking for EVERY instance]). So you're saying each NPC (That needs unique dialogue to create his presence in these menacing dungeons) Can explain all that in 1.5 "lines"? No........Quote:
At most, it would need, what, 50, maybe 60 lines? And even then,
I WOULD rather have the choice, the choice of LEVELING a crafter for the PERK.Quote:
Wouldn't you rather have the choice, than no choice at all?
It is not faulty reasoning OR coming up short as a failsafe. You just don't agree. That does not make it faulty nor coming up short. This entire thread is pure opinion from both sides. Conversely, I see it as sound reasoning and being a full fledged failsafe. (google define fail-safe: a system or plan that comes into operation in the event of something going wrong or that is there to prevent such an occurrence.) The system/plan is to level a crafter in the event of something going wrong (gear break).Quote:
Except it's only a failsafe if you level those jobs. If you never level them, then there is no failsafe. This is why that is such a faulty reasoning - suggesting that the failsafe exists for those who do not currently* have it, means it is coming up short as a failsafe.
And surprise the game does not FORCE them to do anything. They can repair from ANY of the various towns they are probably standing in at that exact moment. They CHOSE not to repair. As others have hyperboled in the thread, you can just keep taking this request further and further as a "failsafe''. I need access to my retainers in dungeon, as a failsafe. I need access to the Market Board in dungeon, as a failsafe. There is your only full proof failsafe. Every instance needs access to the MB/Retainer/Repair NPC/Vendor NPC (Can't forget those guys who have their entire inventory full [people posted the first week of patch about missing the Fenrir pup drop from PvP since their inventory was full). You called it a slippery slope fallacy, and well its a slippery slope but not a fallacy in this context. Their IS a failsafe, you think its insufficient so you want an ADDITIONAL failsafe. Your argument is that it hurts no one. Access to the MB in every dungeon hurts no one either. Access to your retainers in every dungeon doesn't hurt anyone either. Etc. Etc. It is a REAL slippery slope and not a fallacy.Quote:
in a game that says you can CHOOSE to do everything, should not be forcing you to do everything for basic quality of life changes.
1) The programming is almost a copy/pasta from melding. As you mention it also existed from 1.0 which means they DO have the code already (100% its backed up somewhere) they just have to find it.Quote:
Now, let's compare this to your suggestion, and see why it is a bad idea:
2) No trading needs to be done, why don't you understand this.
3) No gil exchange needs to be done, why don't you understand this.
4) Your marginalizing an already marginal issue.
1) NPC's already exist, yes but don't forget you have to give them unique lines, backstory and program the functions on to them and then make sure its not programming it onto their character model OUTSIDE of the instance either, heck this means making a duplicate NPC model and attaching the repair menu to it.Quote:
Let me give you a few examples of why I, personally, feel adding NPC's is easier.
2) No argument there, but the programming also exists for the other option.
3) Yes again, the programming exists for both options.
And as far as I'm concerned the exact opposite is true. The programming already exists for both, one just requires 0 ret con or lore re writes or additional models being loaded into dungeons.Quote:
As far as I am concerned, it is FAR EASIER to add NPC's and a line of dialogue, or just straight up copy-pasting NPC's from the dungeon's very entrance than it is to create a whole new system within the game to give you what you want.
They also don't get the benefit of your additional failsafe if they don't have enough gil on them when they queue in. TBH its probably equally likely for both scenarios.Quote:
Except they DON'T Get that benefit if the crafter isn't there,
OPTION which is not a payment. Simply disable that option. Its practically changing a 1 to a 0 in code in complexity.Quote:
What? Yes there is. The whole "Request Meld" system in the game involves having the OPTION of adding payment via the Meld interface, and true to form - some people expect "Tips" for their work. There are also people who do it for free, but it does not change that the Melding system (Whcih is our parallel in this case) inherantly has that feature built in, and it should be expected that the feature would be added to a Reapir rquest system as well.
Hah, we both ended up doing the same thing and even the same definition. However...Quote:
It is NOT a failsafe, because by the very definition of the word failsafe
That's not what pre-emptive means at all. Repairing above 100%, is pre-emptive. Leveling a crafter or carrying dark matter is not.Quote:
Rather, your system falls more accurately and more succinctly into the definition of a pre-emptive measure
For "intial" yes. That's less than 1/2 of ARR + HW's lifespan.Quote:
Even without these listed items, Crafted accessories are still the only way for non-tank classes to raise their Vitality without sacrificing a primary stat, so it still had its use for initial progression raiding.
The whole reason I'm mentioning this is because this applies to both scenarios. Everything you said for a crafter making millions applies to battle classes as well. No effort, no profit. This point you're trying to make literally cancels itself out.Quote:
A crafter requires an investment, but if you're willing to apply effort after the investment,
No, this thread has come up a few times in the past. But the scarcity of it shows general lack of care by the public. This topic has less followers than the "Give Roegadyn chest hair" club and a metric ton less than the "Give Miqo'te their booty back" club.Quote:
To argue Majority from either of us would be flawed.
That's exactly what 0% effectiveness means. Its broke to the point of unusability until someone fixes it, just like the stuff that we have to spend 5 quest chains on, or several patches worth to fix.Quote:
At 0%, it breaks in such a way that it becomes useless, but can be repaired. This can be something as simple as the straps being broken, to the armor having been cleaved in two and needs to be welded back together. In the end, it doesn't matter - what matters is, "I can't use this shield" because it can't be held to block anymore.
The fact that our armor is fully effective until 0% suggets to me that we at 0% are not reaching the same dilapidated state of the very stuff you suggest is being fixed in the world at large.
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03-24-2016, 01:07 AMEidolonYes. They added in lines that said she was good at it, without any real precedent for it. They just said "Oh by the way she can mine now" and gave her a quest series for it. How does that not come off as Retconning to you, but having an NPC say the same thing in a dungoun that was sent to help you to the entrance would?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zantitrach
Yes, actually. A very fast, single, succinct line from an NPC would be more than enough to define their purpose for being there. The issue seems to be that you're expecting them to have full quest chains. Characters in the world often have only 1-3 text bubbles containing 1-2 lines at most.Quote:
There's 43 dungeons alone (33 Trials, 25 raids if you were curious [again OP and others in this thread are asking for EVERY instance]). So you're saying each NPC (That needs unique dialogue to create his presence in these menacing dungeons) Can explain all that in 1.5 "lines"? No........
I'm not saying to flesh them out like the characters were in MSQ. I am saying that flavor text, or just re-using the models of the guards standing outside of the dungoun that gives them continuity, is equally effective and isn't nearly as much work as you're making it out to be.
which is a choice that is NOT TAKEN AWAY by the presence of an NPC in the dungoun. They add the NPC, you still have the choice to level so you can use it whenever, wherever, at a cheaper cost, going over 100%. You need to stop acting like this takes away from it - AT ALL.Quote:
I WOULD rather have the choice, the choice of LEVELING a crafter for the PERK.
No, it is very faulty. It assumes everyone has leveled the job, thus that the failsafe is available to all. It is a very poor failsafe, but a great pre-emptive measure (And I'll define this for you too:Quote:
It is not faulty reasoning OR coming up short as a failsafe. You just don't agree. That does not make it faulty nor coming up short. This entire thread is pure opinion from both sides. Conversely, I see it as sound reasoning and being a full fledged failsafe. (google define fail-safe: a system or plan that comes into operation in the event of something going wrong or that is there to prevent such an occurrence.) The system/plan is to level a crafter in the event of something going wrong (gear break).
a. Undertaken or intended to deter or prevent an anticipated, usually unpleasant situation or occurrence:
As you can see, the purpose of leveling your crafts is the perfect definition of a pre-emptive measure. It is done with the intent of preventing the anticipated occurance of being in a situation in which your gear breaks and you do not have a way to prevent it. It is not a failsafe, because it is not a neutral state that can occur in the case that the said 'fail state' DOES happen.
It is not a choice to forget to do something, and this is where your arguement falls apart. Someone who forgets, is not saying "Hey, I'm just gonna forget about it." Think of it more like going to your car, and going "Oh ****, I forgot my keys!" I did not CHOOSE to forget my keys and have to go back to get them. I forgot, as is human nature, on things that come naturally that we become accustomed to.Quote:
And surprise the game does not FORCE them to do anything. They can repair from ANY of the various towns they are probably standing in at that exact moment. They CHOSE not to repair. As others have hyperboled in the thread, you can just keep taking this request further and further as a "failsafe''. I need access to my retainers in dungeon, as a failsafe. I need access to the Market Board in dungeon, as a failsafe. There is your only full proof failsafe. Every instance needs access to the MB/Retainer/Repair NPC/Vendor NPC (Can't forget those guys who have their entire inventory full [people posted the first week of patch about missing the Fenrir pup drop from PvP since their inventory was full). You called it a slippery slope fallacy, and well its a slippery slope but not a fallacy in this context. Their IS a failsafe, you think its insufficient so you want an ADDITIONAL failsafe. Your argument is that it hurts no one. Access to the MB in every dungeon hurts no one either. Access to your retainers in every dungeon doesn't hurt anyone either. Etc. Etc. It is a REAL slippery slope and not a fallacy.
Your entire arguement is a slippery slope in this paragraph. "We shouldn't add it because people will ask for more!" is completely absurd. There is nothing you need a MarketBoard for, a Vendor NPC (Food is optional, gear is on-hand, and crafting mats shouldn't be mid-dungoun or else it'll wind up like Diadem.)
Yes. you are right. Access to the MB in the dungoun doesn't hurt anyone. But what in the heck would be the point of putting it in? This is a major reason why a Slippery Sloap arguement doesn't work. Because the 'logical' (used that word loosely) conclusion that More will come of asking for something, doesn't work.
Why would someone ask for a MB in a dungoun? To do their crafting? They can't change to their crafts in dungouns, so that won't be a problem. To buy a piece of gear? Well, members who are able to enter into the dungoun meet the minimum ilevel requirement, thus they do not require any additional gear. Compare this to a member who's gear breaks middungou, that person NEEDS repairs.
Need vs. Wants is a very real subject, but using it as the foundation of a slippery slope is just... bad.
Slippery Slope:
The Slippery Slope is a fallacy in which a person asserts that some event must inevitably follow from another without any argument for the inevitability of the event in question.
Understand why this is a bad, fallacious arguement. And instead, focus on the issue at hand.
1) I do not think the programming is going to be a straight copy-pasta for the differences of melding a single piece of gear at percentage chances vs. repairing a gear with varying degrees of percentages and various potential grades of materia. No, the system does not, currently, in FFXIV exist, and to say "It'd be easy" without any way to substantiate it is completely personal opinion. Accept that it would take more work, however, than something that IS Available in the game.Quote:
1) The programming is almost a copy/pasta from melding. As you mention it also existed from 1.0 which means they DO have the code already (100% its backed up somewhere) they just have to find it.
2) No trading needs to be done, why don't you understand this.
3) No gil exchange needs to be done, why don't you understand this.
4) Your marginalizing an already marginal issue.
2-3) Again, the model of the idea is following behind the model of Materia Melding. If Square puts in a Request system for Repair, it is likely to have a system that enables someone to include a 'tip' for the work. It is an exchange between players, is what oyu need to understand. This means that it could be used in a way to move gil. Why do you not understand this?
4) No, I'm creating a very real scenario in which the failsafe that you suggest fails in its most basic function. Players are not garunteed to level a Crafting craft to 60, but they ARE garunteed to level a Combat class to 60 if they're in a level 60 dungoun. Do you understand that 100% of the time, a character will have a combat class at 60 if they are in a 60 dungoun, but not 100% of the time the player WILL NOT Have a crafting class at level 50/60?
1) Actually, you don't have to go so far. That is like suggesting that all the NPC's at the entrance to the dungouns needed specific backstory to them. They are a member of the Adders/Flames/Maelstrome. This is their backstory. Having a single line of flavor text is not difficult. The issue is, you are going to such an extreme to prove the point, that you're forgetting that at times - less is more. The continuity of the character from outside being the one at the entrance of the dungoun in itself is already world building. Having a single line of flavor text that mentions their discomfort / amazement with the area and looking forward to your success further adds to the characters. But I do not need a story of how their mother was actually Bahamut and their father was Shiva.Quote:
1) NPC's already exist, yes but don't forget you have to give them unique lines, backstory and program the functions on to them and then make sure its not programming it onto their character model OUTSIDE of the instance either, heck this means making a duplicate NPC model and attaching the repair menu to it.
2) No argument there, but the programming also exists for the other option.
3) Yes again, the programming exists for both options.
2)You have no proof that the programming exists 'for both options', only that the programming exists for melding.
3) You have no proof that the programming exists 'for both options', only that the programming exists for melding.
Neither require a retcon of lore. However, only one is proven to exist. Until we have some degree of proof that a system that existed only in 1.0 still exists in the code of 2.0, then we have to work by the assumption it would be more work to implement the system in than a system that already exists and is actively used in the game.Quote:
And as far as I'm concerned the exact opposite is true. The programming already exists for both, one just requires 0 ret con or lore re writes or additional models being loaded into dungeons.
[qupte] They also don't get the benefit of your additional failsafe if they don't have enough gil on them when they queue in. TBH its probably equally likely for both scenarios. [/quote]
Man that'd be like... the worst possible situation, but I can't deny it'd happen to someone, sooner or later. However, I do believe we can agree that - the majority of players have enough gil to repair their gear. It is just a matter that sometimes, these players enter without remembering to fix thier gear.
For those who don't have the gil to repair, I am not sure how to help those without the gil to repair. I know some people get by on 40k gil. I couldn't imagine it personally.
And reformatting the window to properly be scaled to account for the fact that there is no longer that option, and changing the fact that the payment option is no longer in there, and making sure that it checks that you have hte PROPER GRADE of a DIFFERENT ITEM, and making sure that it checks your current Repair %'s and makes sure to add it on properly. Seriously, it is so much more work than having an NPC that works EXACLTY HOW THEY ALREADY WORK.Quote:
OPTION which is not a payment. Simply disable that option. Its practically changing a 1 to a 0 in code in complexity.
No, repairing before hte dungoun is a pre-emptive measure.Quote:
Hah, we both ended up doing the same thing and even the same definition. However...
That's not what pre-emptive means at all. Repairing above 100%, is pre-emptive. Leveling a crafter or carrying dark matter is not.
Leveling crafters is a pre-emptive measure.
However, adding an NPC, is a failsafe. It ensures that, should both those systems fail, there is a 'zero-state' that protects the player.
Currently, there is no failsafe in the system. If you do not have your crafts leveled, and your gear breaks, you're kinda screwed for the stats. You might still be able to clear, but it will be at the cost of extra effort and strain on 3 other people in the party.
More like close to 1/2 or 3/4th. Crafted gear for BiS remains relevent for the entire content patch. It likewise could ALWAYS be used to bring your uncapped classes up to snuff for raid, something I have had to do more than once.Quote:
For "intial" yes. That's less than 1/2 of ARR + HW's lifespan.
Not necessarily. A crafter can make millions on their own, with enough effort. A battle crafter who wnats to sell runs will have to work with 6 other people, and is reliant on others. A battle crafter can go and farm things slowly, over time, and yes - it can earn gil. But the amount of gil a battle crafter will earn will likely not compare to someone who produces items for profit.Quote:
The whole reason I'm mentioning this is because this applies to both scenarios. Everything you said for a crafter making millions applies to battle classes as well. No effort, no profit. This point you're trying to make literally cancels itself out.
Let's think of it this way. It's like comparing someone who runs a mom and pop shop to the CEO of J.C. Penny's.
This is my first time seeing it, sadly. But I do think it's a good idea. It's very possible for ideas not to be mentioned frequnetly by virtue of the fact that it doesn't come up as an issue until you, personally, experience it. That is likely the position the OP spoke from, as well. "I'm tired of having to abandon dungouns." They clearly struggled with it.Quote:
No, this thread has come up a few times in the past. But the scarcity of it shows general lack of care by the public. This topic has less followers than the "Give Roegadyn chest hair" club and a metric ton less than the "Give Miqo'te their booty back" club.
First of all, the quest chain to make the relic was literally creating a brand new relic. That is a poor example. We used the broken, COMPLETELY USELESS, pieces of the original relic moreso as a blueprint, but everything was built around that. It was not the simple repair of the weapon - but rather, it was creating a whole new item from it.Quote:
That's exactly what 0% effectiveness means. Its broke to the point of unusability until someone fixes it, just like the stuff that we have to spend 5 quest chains on, or several patches worth to fix.
Something being unusable does not mean that it is completely useless, though. If the shield breaks, but can be repaired, it still has a value - compare that to a shield that has broken, and been eroded by YEARS of not being used, to the point that it litearlly doesn't even resemble its previous form. The Dark Matter can't fix that. But the one that could be reasonably repaired, makes sense.
There have been a number of characters that 'teleport out when X situation is met" or likewise "Teleports in when Y situation is met." for example, void ark spawning Cthulu-tentacle-oh-god-why. Characters spawn for Fates that you can interact and talk with, whcih would be easy to enable/disable for the pull.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyce
Hell, you're gonna try to argue immersion?
We have bikin-clad cat girls running around with more defense than the rest of the mildly armored party. We have a world where it's considered 'realistic' for a Dragoon to literally travel via jumps (Dear god I died laughing when I first saw Eistinien enter/exit his cutscenes. It was hilarious.) We have literal magic.
But a character being in a zone, who by all rights SHOULD be there, as he is the SAME NPC that showed you the way from outside the dungoun, is somehow a streatch of the imagination?
We can be summoned to a giant mother crystal in some land we don't know, and float around like fairy princesses (God I hated that cutscene on a personal level), but some explorer who dabbles in repairs somehow sets you off?
You want to say that it's more realistic for there to be a glowing "Shortcut" that takes us to the last boss room we beat, but find it so unrealistic for someone who was waiting for us to wish for our well being?
Heck. If I want to keep in continuity with the shortcuts, let's just add a giant piece of floating crystal. We'll call it the "Mother Crystal", and when you interact with it, it says "It pulses with a warm light." and then pops open the repair window. It fits with the same level of absurdity of everything else, but to try and argue "Muh immersion" for an NPC who COULD in theory be at the start...
Also, I'll add - I still hold a strong belief to just dungouns. I think it could be done for raids, too, but I don't feel it is NEEDED for raids, because for the most part - raids (and when I say raids, I refer to Alexander and Coil) are not long enough to risk the breaking of armor. And when they do risk the breaking of armor (Assuming you reach 10% in the course of the fights), your more likely to have Vote Abandonens than anything else. But going into broken armor is very possible without wanting to vote abandon for a duty. -
03-24-2016, 01:13 AMFelisAsk the devs to bring back the feature to repair other players gearQuote:
Originally Posted by Adire
Problem solved without repair NPCs -
03-24-2016, 01:16 AMEidolonProblem not solved because none of your party members had any of their crafts leveled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Felis
Problem not solved because the player didn't bring Dark Matter because they usually use the NPC's in the field.
This is simply trying to add something to crafters and is trying to detract for the subject at hand. -
03-24-2016, 01:24 AMIagainsti
20 More Pages!!!!!
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03-24-2016, 02:34 AMKosmos992kWait, my brain hurts from reading this mass of illogical nonsense. Apparently it's just too damned difficult for you to remember to repair your gear before logging out or upon logging back in because of...life. And yet you *utterly* dismiss the amount of work required just to implement backstories for all these NPCs you want showing up in the most dangerous places in the real with a gear repair kit in hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adire
So, remembering a simple thing like "repair before log out, repair upon login" is apparently such a big thing that it justifies creating new NPCs, adjusting lore, creating unique backstories, and characters, and then creating their repair booth in each dungeon or Trial? Really? I mean...really?
Seriously, I just don't know what to say. It's simply ridiculous.
P.S. I wonder how these mythical menders resist tempering...
Repair before running anything, at one of the scores of menders available in the open world...problem solved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
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03-24-2016, 02:41 AMFeliAiko
Adding NPCs would be easier and convenient... doesn't mean it should actually be done, because it would also be silly and unnecessary. The most I'd like to see SE do is give players the ability to repair other players gear, like with materia melding.
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03-24-2016, 02:43 AMAndrea
I would like the food buff permanent now because I sometimes forget to eat.
Please SE add in the next patch that my character automatically eats when entering an instance. -
03-24-2016, 02:46 AMMugenMugetsu
I'm not even going to bother reading this entire thread. I think the responses to the OP have gone way overboard. It was a simple request. Have a NPC at the start of the dungeon, in a safe zone, who can repair our gear. Sounds like a legitimate request if you ask me and I would welcome having a repair NPC at the start of the dungeon. Yes, it's largely unneeded. Yes, we should be responsible and check our durability before queuing, however the fact of the matter is that no one is perfect, and mistakes happen. As a small QoL improvement to the game having a repair NPC at the start of the dungeon would be great. I support the OP's request. Too bad it seems that the vast majority of people in this thread are vehemently against anything other than everyone leveling all of the crafting jobs so they can repair their own gear and want to make a huge deal out of a very small, simple, request.
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03-24-2016, 02:53 AMVoltyblast
I would say that, I rather have the possibility to teleport in and out of the dungeon so that I can repair to a NPC mender - ah wait scratch that, someone will most likely start pointing out how this feature can be open to abuse and say how this would ruin everything yadda yadda, you know the drill.
Move along I guess. Oh, but I do support the OP idea. Can't hurt. -
03-24-2016, 02:53 AMFeliAikoFrom what I gleaned in this thread, the OP got valid responses as to why it wasn't a good idea yet his responses amounted to stuff like "I don't like crafting" or "it should be easy to just code it in", "they can just change the lore to however they want", which shows a refusal to respect the systems and options that the game provides but would rather have SE switch everything up just to facilitate his niche needs.Quote:
Originally Posted by MugenMugetsu
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03-24-2016, 02:53 AMIagainsti
I may have a solution.
Make the NPC in every duty Maat, the only NPC out there badass enough to be in any duty before you get there. He can repair your gear after a 2 min, un-skippable dialogue in which he berates you for being a "bad adventurer" in his opinion, can't believe you wouldn't check your gear before you joined the queue, and charges you 5 times what a regular repair npc would.
http://pds.exblog.jp/pds/1/201002/20...51_1143361.jpg
Added bonus, he laughs very loudly every time players die and return to the beginning of the duty, so loudly in fact that the echo can still be heard at the last boss. -
03-24-2016, 02:59 AMWinterLunaThe OP is getting these responses because regardless of this not being a "small and simple request," he is completely ignoring the points other people are making in attempt to validate his argument. Just because lore doesn't matter to him doesn't mean it doesn't matter to other people. Just because he doesn't want to craft doesn't mean other people don't take that time and effort. If he actually provided a good argument to these points, people would respect his request more.Quote:
Originally Posted by MugenMugetsu
Not to mention he thought comparing being forgetful to extreme disabilities was a good idea. If he goes overboard in such a way, he will get overboard in return.
Off topic: What's funny is all of these arguments about how lore can be changed etc etc never actually touch on the fact this isn't an easy or quick job to do. I'd rather SE use their time and resources on something less trivial. -
03-24-2016, 03:06 AMFyceYour opinion won't change mine. You don't think that the drawbacks of that change is a big deal, I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
I like that preparation process. I like having to check my equipment before going on duty. It gives me a sense of responsability and something to care about. It's small details like that which builds up immersion.
You want to take that away and give people a free pass at being careless. I don't want that to happen.
If you forget to do your job, which is checking your equipement before going to battle, then take your responsabilities.
We don't need more handholding. Especially not at the cost of immersion just for a very tiny minority of people who don't give a f**k. -
03-24-2016, 03:07 AMfantasticmQuote:
Originally Posted by Adire
You two should be working for Blizzard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon
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03-24-2016, 04:35 AMThunda_Cat_SMASHI approve of this idea. I don't recognize him, but seems like one of the best ideas this threads come up with!Quote:
Originally Posted by Iagainsti
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03-24-2016, 05:06 AMIagainstiMaat is a street walking cheetah with a heart full of napalm, the baddest mofo to walk the land of Vana'diel and all realms since. His name is a synonym for "Awesomeness", "Boombastic", and "Undefeated". Just his sneeze alone would put any single target LB3 to shame, last I heard his average ilvl surpass the numeral count the system recognizes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
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03-24-2016, 05:19 AMEidolonYou're probably one of the few honest poster's I've seen, that instead of trying to create disingenuous "They don't care" or "They don't try to discuss it", literally just comes forward and says "I don't care what you think, I like it this way."Quote:
Originally Posted by Fyce
There is something admirable to be said for that.
And I respect this reasoning more than the faulty logic a lot of other posters are using to say "It goes against lore", "It'd be a lot of work", "I'd rather have this other option" and "Level crafting." -
03-24-2016, 05:29 AMZantitrachHe's an FFXI reference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunda_Cat_SMASH
http://ffxiclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Maat
I wasn't referring to relics. I was referring to 5 quest chains to fix an airship part, wagon wheel, etc.Quote:
First of all, the quest chain to make the relic was literally creating a brand new relic. That is a poor example.
Yes necessarily. Just because you feel differently doesn't make it less true. There was a LOT of front loaded effort for crafters to have specs high enough to craft the new items. Likewise there is a lot of effort involved for battle classes to organize enough to farm/carry for aforementioned gils.Quote:
Not necessarily.
Wrong entirely. You've made a fatal error and your bias is showing.Quote:
More like close to 1/2 or 3/4th. Crafted gear for BiS remains relevant for the entire content patch.
The current crafted item patch landed 2/22 and the next patch people are giving around 3/29. That'll put the crafts as "useful" (only a few are BiS to begin with) for 1 month, 1 week of 10 months possible. That will literally be 10% (1/10th).
Wootz Gear dropped Patch 2.4 10/28/14.
Platinum accessories were 2.5 1/20/15.
FCoB dropped patch 2.4.
SCoB dropped 2.2.
BCoB was 2.0.
Very rarely were they BiS and even if they were, it was for 2-3 months at the longest. The game has been running 8/27/13-3/23/16. 29 months. You're looking at crafted gear BiS for 5-7 months tops. That's 17% - 24% of the game's lifespan. That's as low as 1/6 to as high as 1/4. NOWHERE nearQuote:
More like close to 1/2 or 3/4th.
This is why it is NOT a slippery slope fallacy. You're arguing to protect EVERYONE. As mentioned (and you just dismiss) this is why the would have to add retainers to dungeons as well.Quote:
Man that'd be like... the worst possible situation, but I can't deny it'd happen to someone, sooner or later
There is already lore involved that show they are not crafters/repair smiths with the ability to fix your broke gear on the fly. So yes, yours requires a retcon of lore.Quote:
Neither require a retcon of lore.
Completely wrong. It exists in 1.0. As has been stated time and time again.Quote:
2)You have no proof that the programming exists 'for both options',
1)NPC repair smiths are NOT available in dungeons currently. That means it is NOT available in the game and will take JUST AS MUCH if not MORE work than the proposed counter argument.Quote:
1) I do not think the programming is going to be a straight copy-pasta for the differences of melding a single piece of gear at percentage chances vs. repairing a gear with varying degrees of percentages and various potential grades of materia. No, the system does not, currently, in FFXIV exist, and to say "It'd be easy" without any way to substantiate it is completely personal opinion. Accept that it would take more work, however, than something that IS Available in the game.
2-3) Again, the model of the idea is following behind the model of Materia Melding. If Square puts in a Request system for Repair, it is likely to have a system that enables someone to include a 'tip' for the work. It is an exchange between players, is what oyu need to understand. This means that it could be used in a way to move gil. Why do you not understand this?
2) Since this would be a cross server functionality and SE doesn't want gil moved like that, they would disable it because its a simple fix since right now its an OPTION and not a requirement. Stop trying to argue it would move gil.
Food/repairs/inventory management. Covered all your arguments. Done. You're wrong. Just, flat out not an opinion this time.Quote:
There is nothing you need a MarketBoard for, a Vendor NPC (Food is optional, gear is on-hand, and crafting mats shouldn't be mid-dungoun or else it'll wind up like Diadem.)
MB and retainers were already covered in the above posts as well as this post. Access to gil for your NPC repairs, access to food for buffs/exp. It is NOT a fallacy in this case but IS still a slippery slope.Quote:
Why would someone ask for a MB in a dungoun?
The failsafe IS available to all. They chose not to employ it. A Wise man saidQuote:
No, it is very faulty. It assumes everyone has leveled the job, thus that the failsafe is available to all.
Your failsafe requires a failsafe just as much as the counter argument. Repairing in dungeon is a CONVENIENCE not a NECESSITY. Right now the convenience is limited to crafters as a perk of the job.Quote:
a common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
No it wouldn't. Brayflox has mountains of quest text that doesn't indicate one bit he can fix your gear. You can't just suddenly place him inside the instance with "Oh yeah, I can fix your gear too, kthxbye."Quote:
Yes, actually. A very fast, single, succinct line from an NPC would be more than enough to define their purpose for being there.
It WAS a retcon and look how much info/space it took up! That was the point!Quote:
How does that not come off as Retconning to you, but having an NPC say the same thing in a dungoun that was sent to help you to the entrance would?
More than the faulty logic of "It doesn't need lore", "its not a lot of work", "I'd rather have this option" and "too lazy or don't care enough to level crafting".Quote:
more than the faulty logic a lot of other posters are using to say "It goes against lore", "It'd be a lot of work", "I'd rather have this other option" and "Level crafting."
FTFY. Just because it is not YOUR logic doesn't make it faulty. They both have equal validity, hence why this topic has so many nay-sayers in addition to yay-sayers. -
03-24-2016, 06:04 AMKhanscott
Being able to repair my stuff is nice, but I still vote for an in-dungeon solution for repairs. A repair option 45 mins into Midas is still a gil sink and people wouldn't have to be interrupted by gear breaking within the the span of a 60/90/9001 minute cycle.