Why do casuals act as if it's the end of the world when suggesting?

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

The damage issue is indeed silly, it's kinda ridiculous to have everyone die and then the Tank just solos the boss for 10 minutes lol.

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It's fun when you have a curebot that die early on a dungeon boss and you just clear it with the two DPS because dying is harder than clearing in dungeon. x)
I just wish curebot would understand what it means about their utility in the partys...

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Originally Posted by RobynDaBank

Good luck convincing the developers it's not those filthy brain-dead casuals they need to "cater" to, but your mouth-running self.

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Asking people to actually have to play moderately good to finish the story shouldn't be seen as not catering to brain-dead people.
Why are they even paying for if they don't want to try to play the game correctly ?

Casuals? In my MMO?!

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Originally Posted by Kazelus

It's fun when you have a curebot that die early on a dungeon boss and you just clear it with the two DPS because dying is harder than clearing in dungeon. x)
I just wish curebot would understand what it means about their utility in the partys...


Asking people to actually have to play moderately good to finish the story shouldn't be seen as not catering to brain-dead people.
Why are they even paying for if they don't want to try to play the game correctly ?

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I mean you could note the fact that I've responded to nobody else with the same opinion besides them in this thread with my statement. It's not about what you say, but how you say it. Extremely difficult to feel even a little empathy for that opinion when they can't go one word without belittling somebody.

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Originally Posted by TheGrimace

Casuals? In my MMO?!

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Yes and they ain't going away.

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Originally Posted by TheGrimace

Casuals? In my MMO?!

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you forgot to snarl and growl

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

When you're speaking to someone who claims you're asking for everything to be "hardcore" maybe get some of their perspective and don't assume everyone is using your standard.

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Or, rather than calling dungeons "hardcore" as if that were equivalent to either "demon-spawned" or "any centigrade number greater than 5", they could... be more clearly descriptive? You know, like trying to actually communicate?

If I were 3'11" (~1.2 meters), I still wouldn't use the word "huge" to describe a 5'6, 120lb (1.7m, 54kg) person unless it's damn clear from my visible expression that I'm being humorously relativistic. That's not something to be used with zero context --or without any some more-concrete detail-- if one wants the word to remotely convey their intended meaning.

As you said, there's context and standards.

By none of those contexts or standards, though, do you directly end up with our dungeons as midcore battle content. You'd have to first move the frame of reference away from those standards, away from what is typically meant by said "content" (i.e., reward-bearing and part of the typical week-to-week content loops the game incentivizes us towards or treats as central to its leveling and endgame experience, as opposed to "side-content").

If one actually bothers to communicate that difference in frame of reference instead of just complaining that the average person disagrees because that speaker/writer hasn't bothered to situate their measures, then we're fine. Otherwise, the meaning has been left incomprehensible.

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I never said we shouldn't have more options or that what we have is fine and OK forever and everything. I'm saying if your problem is someone telling you that all your requests are "savage difficulty on everything" (the actual OP's complaint) maybe ask them what they think hard IS instead of yelling at them that everything is too easy.

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Assuming said person is willing to actually give an answer to that question, 100% agreed.

I consider myself a casual, but I would like to see more difficult content in general.

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Originally Posted by OM3GA-Z3RO

The problem is that it all boils down to: Too Easy or Too Hard

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As someone who is somewhat casual in this MMO (usually do some EXs but I wasn't too impressed with EW so not motivated to really), but enjoyed midcore raiding (and other content) in a prior MMO that shall not be named, agree with all this. People keep saying harder stuff in this is a song and dance memorisation routine, so not sure how much I'd enjoy devoting time to that.

My hope had been, regarding MSQ content, that they'd use the trusts to allow for an optional "ez mode", so that the normal/DF version can show more variety in difficulty and be less braindead, as some of these fights represent very powerful bosses, and the mechanical ease can be jarring - the EX modes are too camped up to be taken seriously often in that sense, being deliberate fabrications of the Minstrel. But instead they seem to be smoothing over content to make it Trust-compatible. :rolleyes: I could not take Endsinger seriously for what she's meant to represent, although that fight was altogether too cheesy for me, and Zodiark really would've been better accommodated by a harder difficulty... and you could throw in a Trust easy mode for those who just want to play the game in a more "chilled" way. At the end of the day this is a game and I don't like things meant to be powerful just rolling over.

I'd also appreciate more "midcore" content, which is mechanically somewhat challenging and repeatable, but not a huge timesink. The new PVP mode sort of works for me that way but variety is great. And I second healer sentiments - even doing it at Alliance raid level, unless you're dealing with really bad runs, it's not difficult and the 1 button dps spam very quickly grows monotonous and boring, and on a healer like SGE I am barely even using half my kit without much struggle. Not sure who this is meant to appeal to.

To me, it's less a casual/hardcore divide, as being a casual does not stop me from appreciating challenge in the content and I part ways with any self-proclaimed casuals who don't. It is solely down to how much time I am willing/able to put in. People who actively want the content to be where it is now/easier are a separate category.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Because the word casual has lost its meaning and generally now just means lazy players..

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I have virtually always considered myself a casual gamer. yet i play games on high difficulties , enjoy tough games like sekiro and bloodborne, and generally use games to suplement and add more challenges to life. where many people view games as escapism to escape there failing lives.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Meanwhile, high end players can get no significant joy of challenge out of:

• Any light party content.
• Any open world content.
• Alliance raids.
• Any large-zone side-content.

Anyone who wants some sort of challenge is offered only those three flavors of 8-man beat-a-cylinder-to-death-while-moving-to-the-right-places-at-the-right-time fights in perfectly circular or rectangular rooms. That's literally all they get.

If the devs need to cater to all play styles, why the heck is there no real midcore experience? Why is there only barrel's-bottom difficulty available to light party play? Why do all hard modes (Extremes, Savage, Ultimate, etc.) have an easy mode, but none of the other types have any hard mode?

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Because the word casual has lost its meaning and generally now just means lazy players..

Anyone who isn't lazy is "super duper hard core elitist"

Honestly many "proper casual" not "lazy casual" players would kill for some extra oomph in terms of difficulty... but at this point there justnoverused words that have lost all meaning.

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Agreed. I'm a casual player; Play 1-2 hours every 2-3 days or so, I don't have the time to get into Savage/Ultimate. I would absolutely love some harder light party content. There's a big difficulty gap that I fit in that I'm hoping Criterion Dungeons will fill.

"Casual" though has been used to describe people who are not interested in playing well and that's not us "real" casuals. A lot of those people play a lot, they just don't care about improving and shouldn't be lumped in with casual players.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

Agreed. I'm a casual player; Play 1-2 hours every 2-3 days or so, I don't have the time to get into Savage/Ultimate. I would absolutely love some harder light party content. There's a big difficulty gap that I fit in that I'm hoping Criterion Dungeons will fill.

"Casual" though has been used to describe people who are not interested in playing well and that's not us "real" casuals. A lot of those people play a lot, they just don't care about improving and shouldn't be lumped in with casual players.

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You're quite right, even if I play more than you, same play time but I can play everyday, back to 2012, I would have been called a casual player. I have the time to clear savage but not ultimate sadly. But "casual" design lazy players mostly these days...
I would kill for a savage light party content. But the mindset of the devs is they don't want to put everything on the shoulder of the devs, like there is no other way to make things difficult that dealing damage to a player who makes a mistake... One of the things that bother me the most is the interrupt cast on last boss of ktisis, it buffs his damage, so if the tank doesn't do his jobs, it's the heal that pay the price... Why not some light party content where the same cast will make auto-attacks from the boss apply a non removable paralysis, so the tank forgot to interrupt, he have to enjoy his paralysis.
But no, in XIV mistake = damage + vulne most of the time so only the healer is punished... (And damage down in savage, yeah.) It just need a bit of imagination to make light party content that can be difficult without making a burden only for the healer... Actually healer are optionnal on light party content so...

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Originally Posted by Lauront

As someone who is somewhat casual in this MMO (usually do some EXs but I wasn't too impressed with EW so not motivated to really), but enjoyed midcore raiding (and other content) in a prior MMO that shall not be named, agree with all this.
[...]

My hope had been, regarding MSQ content, that they'd use the trusts to allow for an optional "ez mode", so that the normal/DF version can show more variety in difficulty and be less braindead, as some of these fights represent very powerful bosses, and the mechanical ease can be jarring - the EX modes are too camped up to be taken seriously often in that sense, being deliberate fabrications of the Minstrel. [...]At the end of the day this is a game and I don't like things meant to be powerful just rolling over.

I'd also appreciate more "midcore" content, which is mechanically somewhat challenging and repeatable, but not a huge timesink.
[...]

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I have virtually always considered myself a casual gamer. yet i play games on high difficulties , enjoy tough games like sekiro and bloodborne, and generally use games to suplement and add more challenges to life.

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I'm in the same camp.

Despite what some people may think from my posts alone, I'm firmly in the casual camp but I enjoy challenging myself in games; whenever I start a new single-player I crank up the difficulty to max and see if I can still get away with RP/ flavour builds (got steamrolled in Pathfinder... when they say "Unfair", they MEAN "Unfair").
Casual doesn't mean that I have to avoid anything challenging or can't aim to play well nor does it mean I can't enjoy a bit of friendly performance competition or mull over mappings. I can be casual and still have very solid knowledge and experience and put it to use every time I do content.
But overall I don't play FFXIV all that much - sometimes entire months pass with me only logging in for raiding, some housing, crafting raid consumables and that's it.

I was hoping that expanding the Trust/ Duty Support system would add more options for everyone.
I'd even be 100% fine if a spectator mode existed for every single duty in this game - as long as it is only an option. The problem for me is that only one side has been given an option.
The only "option" for mildly challenging 4man content is getting a full premade and queue with min ilvl or stripping and preferably also no jobstone. That's about as much as an option as saying I could just try to play with my feet instead of hands or randomize my keybinds.
The only "option" for mildly challenging 8man outside of savage/ ultimate is hoping you get a clownfiesta party that fails everything they possibly can.

I feel like many changes lately pander to one crowd getting everything at once: easy content so you don't have to "play it like a second job" or be "super duper elitist hardcore" while also having the MMO aspect and getting the same reward as everyone else.

The other crowd has Savage and Ultimate which is 8man premade only on EU/ NA.
Ex is in a good spot for midcore difficulty but suffers from the same restrictions as Savage/ Ultimate.

I'm not holding my breath for Criterion dungeons but I'd love to see more midcore 4man content that you can pug through DF, preferably with several difficulty levels and you can work your way up. And it would be okay if not every party can clear it without problems - the chance to fail is part of midcore and above difficulty.
I would also like to see more difficult 8man DF content and open-world things but for now I'd be happy with just giving midcore difficulty for 4man as an option.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

The problem is if the content is required for the MSQ. Anything that is required for the MSQ needs to be easy because some of the people who play only for the story are not very good and would be unable to progress if it was difficult. They would quit the game instead. Now that we are getting trusts in these dungeons, they are being nerfed a bit more so an AI can do them.

We used to have optional "hard mode" dungeons. There were apparently some very hard ones in ARR, but I didn't know anyone who regarded them as being hard when I started doing them.

A dungeon with multiple difficulty levels would be ideal, so we should wait and see what criterion dungeons are like.

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I don’t recall anything being hard it’s more like anything requiring communication and teamwork is a no no because people just can’t bother to do that.

You only have to look at Steps of Faith.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

Agreed. I'm a casual player; Play 1-2 hours every 2-3 days or so, I don't have the time to get into Savage/Ultimate. I would absolutely love some harder light party content. There's a big difficulty gap that I fit in that I'm hoping Criterion Dungeons will fill.

"Casual" though has been used to describe people who are not interested in playing well and that's not us "real" casuals. A lot of those people play a lot, they just don't care about improving and shouldn't be lumped in with casual players.

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I'm basically the same, though I do play more days than not...or at least used to, currently feeling that "why did I log in today" situation though. The only real difference, I don't really have the desire to do Savage/Ultimate, but still feel the regular content is way too fail-proof. It is so rare to get any wipes in even the newest of dungeons, and even more of the alliance/normal raids rarely see wipes these days even with almost everyone in a cutscene before it starts. Increasing the difficulty doesn't need to be savage/ultimate level, but steadily making it harder(more boss visual tells - like raising an arm for a swipe/tail for a swat/etc - and less AoE indicator, or anything to spice it up more)

I am a casual player too lol, especially in the past EW is the expansion where I've actually gotten into Savage and my worries about the difficulty were completely unwarranted thus far I regret deciding not to touch the harder content in the past.
I expected it to be way worse and maybe it will be much harder in later tiers I am assuming so but that's also what I want.

Imo Savage and the Extremes are very casual friendly, maybe not I guess in terms if you wanna super optimize or whatever but just clearing them for sure.
Not saying some people might not struggle I am not trying to shame people or whatever I get that it takes longer for it to click for some people.
But I really feel like casual players are far more competent than a lot of people often say, and most people who complain about casuals probably are one themselves.
I dunno if people think that clearing this Savage tier or the Extremes make them '' hardcore '' because I find that a bit laughable tbh.

When I think of hardcore players I think of people who are progging Ultimates from day 1 or clearing Savage blind when they've just been released.
Looking up guides and doing Savage and Extreme I don't think is particularly hardcore or '' pro gamer '' and I am not particularly fuzzed about it either.
I think a lot of people are needlessly scared of them as I was.
To me it's mainly that I don't like feeling like a burden so I was worried about everyone else just facerolling it and me holding everyone back but that wasn't the case at all.
And even when I've had people like that in my groups there has all things considered been VERY little toxicity so long as you join the correct group.

I think a lot of people are not realizing that the past year or so, SE has a made a lot of money with the buzz the around FFXIV being that it is finally the MMO that "respects your time."

In other words, a lot of people are not realizing that they are literally asking Yoshida and SE to change the very thing that has caused the game to explode to the point that my server still has a queue at 5am on a random Thursday. There is difficult content in the game if that is what you are looking for, but I am quite certain it will never, ever be the focus of this game.

Stranger things have happened though, so we will see.

What does that have to do with anything, quickly. If it’s not worth your time then DON’T DO IT!

I guess by your logic savage shouldn't exist, that doesn’t respect your time at all.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

Imo Savage and the Extremes are very casual friendly, maybe not I guess in terms if you wanna super optimize or whatever but just clearing them for sure.
Not saying some people might not struggle I am not trying to shame people or whatever I get that it takes longer for it to click for some people.
But I really feel like casual players are far more competent than a lot of people often say, and most people who complain about casuals probably are one themselves.
I dunno if people think that clearing this Savage tier or the Extremes make them '' hardcore '' because I find that a bit laughable tbh.

When I think of hardcore players I think of people who are progging Ultimates from day 1 or clearing Savage blind when they've just been released.
Looking up guides and doing Savage and Extreme I don't think is particularly hardcore or '' pro gamer '' and I am not particularly fuzzed about it either.
I think a lot of people are needlessly scared of them as I was.
To me it's mainly that I don't like feeling like a burden so I was worried about everyone else just facerolling it and me holding everyone back but that wasn't the case at all.
And even when I've had people like that in my groups there has all things considered been VERY little toxicity so long as you join the correct group.

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See, this is the thing. I'm 100% confident that I would be as good or better than most of the people progging savage in any given instance. But, as a casual player I don't have the time to sit there and prog for 2 hours, and I don't really have the ability to commit to a certain time/day with a static. As a casual player, 30 minutes is really the longest that I can really commit to a play session, some sessions go above that, but I can't really COMMIT to that. So I'm locked out of that strictly because of time, that's all. I agree that the difficulty is fine for casual players, but I just really can't commit to the time for it.

This is another instance of the overlap of "not taking the game seriously" and "don't have that much time to play"

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

I think a lot of people are not realizing that the past year or so, SE has a made a lot of money with the buzz the around FFXIV being that it is finally the MMO that "respects your time."

In other words, a lot of people are not realizing that they are literally asking Yoshida and SE to change the very thing that has caused the game to explode to the point that my server still has a queue at 5am on a random Thursday. There is difficult content in the game if that is what you are looking for, but I am quite certain it will never, ever be the focus of this game.

Stranger things have happened though, so we will see.

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I think the biggest issue is the fact that the middleground content is slowly be eroded away in favor of accessibility. Nothing wrong with super casual content. Nothing wrong with Ultimate "your pinky was in the wrong spot and the mechanic failed, party wipe" content. So what's wrong with puzzle dungeons like Toto-Rak and Sunken Temple? What's wrong with quests like "into the cold"? Is having a middle ground that looked down upon?

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

I think the biggest issue is the fact that the middleground content is slowly be eroded away in favor of accessibility. Nothing wrong with super casual content. Nothing wrong with Ultimate "your pinky was in the wrong spot and the mechanic failed, party wipe" content. So what's wrong with puzzle dungeons like Toto-Rak and Sunken Temple? What's wrong with quests like "into the cold"? Is having a middle ground that looked down upon?

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I agree with your general comment, but I think that it should be _optional_. That's all. Nothing is wrong with Into the Cold as an optional thing, but if it's required, it's going to really keep people from experiencing the story which is something that is really against what SE is trying to do.

I loved the things that you mentioned because they were more interesting than most and definitely agree that we need more of those. But, I don't think that it should be *required* (mainly because I don't want to see people complain)

That's where having an optional easy setting can be handy.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

I think the biggest issue is the fact that the middleground content is slowly be eroded away in favor of accessibility. Nothing wrong with super casual content. Nothing wrong with Ultimate "your pinky was in the wrong spot and the mechanic failed, party wipe" content. So what's wrong with puzzle dungeons like Toto-Rak and Sunken Temple? What's wrong with quests like "into the cold"? Is having a middle ground that looked down upon?

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In principle, no, nothing wrong with that. Everyones middle ground is different. At what point do you decide "Okay, THIS level of content simply isnt going to be for everyone." Alliance raids? Expert dungeons? What should be harder than MSQ?

As far as puzzle dungeons, I think they dont really contribute much because after you have solved the puzzle once, there is nothing left than to be frustrated years later explaining the puzzle to new people , every single time you do the dungeon. How is that compelling or interesting at all? Just look at the groaning people do as it is regarding ARR dungeons that have even the slightest of puzzles, even today.

Would I really prefer the linear "pull to the wall and aoe it all down?" Well, yeah, I would. And I think they know most of their players do too.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

I agree with your general comment, but I think that it should be _optional_. That's all. Nothing is wrong with Into the Cold as an optional thing, but if it's required, it's going to really keep people from experiencing the story which is something that is really against what SE is trying to do.

I loved the things that you mentioned because they were more interesting than most and definitely agree that we need more of those. But, I don't think that it should be *required* (mainly because I don't want to see people complain)

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I agree to a degree that it should be optional in the sense that if you are developing a game like this then when designing the "main path" of the game you should challenge the player a little bit in order to teach them the basics of the game. If you soften each encounter and quest to the point it is considered easy by the majority of the playerbase then when a tricky quest like Into the Cold creeps up on them they will be blindsided and the devs will have to make a choice of either softening that quest as well or slightly retooling the encounter while adding little bits of what you would see in that quest in previous parts of the story in order to teach the player what to do once they see a quest like Into the Cold. I feel like going down that path will slowly erode middlecore content and only leave incredibly easy content and hardcore content where many will vet potential party members leaving many of those with a few hours to play a few days a week locked out of that content. That only leaves the incredibly easy content, which will more than likely bore them and drive them away from the game and then we wonder why no one really bought Battle for Azoroth.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

In principle, no, nothing wrong with that. Everyones middle ground is different. At what point do you decide "Okay, THIS level of content simply isnt going to be for everyone." Alliance raids? Expert dungeons? What should be harder than MSQ?

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Everything should be harder than MSQ to push people to learn the basics of the game before they reach max level. People that doesn't AoE trash packs, healbot and single-pulling tank should not be a thing past 50 and the only way to do so is to create some challenge on the way, nothing really hard but something that forces people into actually playing correctly.

And when you said that this MMO respects your time, clearly it's the reverse with how some people think that it is normal to go slow in dungeons...

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

I agree to a degree that it should be optional in the sense that if you are developing a game like this then when designing the "main path" of the game you should challenge the player a little bit in order to teach them the basics of the game. If you soften each encounter and quest to the point it is considered easy by the majority of the playerbase then when a tricky quest like Into the Cold creeps up on them they will be blindsided and the devs will have to make a choice of either softening that quest as well or slightly retooling the encounter while adding little bits of what you would see in that quest in previous parts of the story in order to teach the player what to do once they see a quest like Into the Cold. I feel like going down that path will slowly erode middlecore content and only leave incredibly easy content and hardcore content where many will vet potential party members leaving many of those with a few hours to play a few days a week locked out of that content. That only leaves the incredibly easy content, which will more than likely bore them and drive them away from the game and then we wonder why no one really bought Battle for Azoroth.

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Sure, I agree with you there too. But, the MSQ does a fairly bad job at fostering player skill as-is, so these "harder" duties are ultimately seen as "extreme" difficulty spikes. If they want to have this content as mainline content, they need to rework the entire MSQ to foster player skill, otherwise people are going to (I guess rightfully) complain about the spike.

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Originally Posted by Avatre

Increasing the difficulty doesn't need to be savage/ultimate level, but steadily making it harder(more boss visual tells - like raising an arm for a swipe/tail for a swat/etc - and less AoE indicator, or anything to spice it up more)

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I'd go with this *IF* they madfe some improvements to the camera to actually make a lot of that stuff visible. some of these bosses are getting so big they cant even fit on your screen at maximum zoom so seeing that indicator above there head is a real ball ache. and with more and more visual indicators for mechanics being way off over there 100 miles outside the arena. even if your zoomed out to maximum distace you still cant see stuff without constant camera gymnastics. can be enough to make you dizzy the amount you have to spin the camera sonetimes.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

I'd go with this *IF* they madfe some improvements to the camera to actually make a lot of that stuff visible. some of these bosses are getting so big they cant even fit on your screen at maximum zoom so seeing that indicator above there head is a real ball ache. and with more and more visual indicators for mechanics being way off over there 100 miles outside the arena. even if your zoomed out to maximum distace you still cant see stuff without constant camera gymnastics. can be enough to make you dizzy the amount you have to spin the camera sonetimes.

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Outside of savage there is not really a need in moving your camera to see a mechs, and even in savage you don't need it that much. One of my friends have a great sensibility over motion sickness and moving the camera is prohibited for her but she actually manage to beat Asphodelos without any help (PS4 and no vocal.). Outside some fight like E8S where the balls on Shiva head were really hard to see for melee, there is not an absolute necessity of a better camera... Would it be a good QoL changes ? Totally, but not a necessity.

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Originally Posted by Kazelus

Outside of savage there is not really a need in moving your camera to see a mechs, and even in savage you don't need it that much. One of my friends have a great sensibility over motion sickness and moving the camera is prohibited for her but she actually manage to beat Asphodelos without any help (PS4 and no vocal.). Outside some fight like E8S where the balls on Shiva head were really hard to see for melee, there is not an absolute necessity of a better camera... Would it be a good QoL changes ? Totally, but not a necessity.

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Depends on general setup for the camera. Default camera is a bit too close to the character for that (IMO, I play on PS5) I had to maximize the camera distance and get used to that distance in order to be at the point where I don't need to throw my camera around.

i love threads like these because it exposes a lot of people who have no clue what they are talking about

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

I think the biggest issue is the fact that the middleground content is slowly be eroded away in favor of accessibility. Nothing wrong with super casual content. Nothing wrong with Ultimate "your pinky was in the wrong spot and the mechanic failed, party wipe" content. So what's wrong with puzzle dungeons like Toto-Rak and Sunken Temple? What's wrong with quests like "into the cold"? Is having a middle ground that looked down upon?

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People just bail or ignore those mechanics. Last time I got Qarn, the tank refused to open the doors to get the pieces because they said we can just fight the mobs that spawn at the end. They only did the mechanics that prevented them from progressing. And if you have enough of those mechanics, people just bail. So then they become content that is only cleared with premades. SE looks at people bailing, looks into why people are bailing, and changes things so people don't bail. Because they don't want to make content that people are just going to refuse to do.

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

or slightly retooling the encounter while adding little bits of what you would see in that quest in previous parts of the story in order to teach the player what to do once they see a quest like Into the Cold. .

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Well, the MSQ taught me "syphon the last dregs of fuel from broken machinery lying around, that'll be useful", the quest then went "fuel is useless, you don't need fuel, you don't get to take fuel" when I found the machinery containing some dregs of fuel.

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Originally Posted by Xaruko_Nexume

I really struggle with a lot of the "easy" mechanics some of the group content has to offer. Its quite frustrating. Ive been gaming sucesfully for decades, finished all the souls games except Elden Ring (yet) so it's not like Im an idiot, or lazy or slow but I dont seem to get a lot of the mechanics that other players do in higher level content. I am fast, and if I see something coming I can dodge it all day long. But by the time I figure out the tell for a mechanic, it seems I dont get that particular dungeon again for ages, and by then Ive forgotten whats even happening and have to start all over again.

So yes, anything outside of Ex, Savage, or Ultimate being too difficult, can certainly feel like the end of the world and unnecessary. When Yoshi P says that if you want harder content, go play Ultimate, I agree with him.

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That is natural though depending on how often you did said content even if you have not done it in a while it should start to come back to you as you do it.

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Originally Posted by TaleraRistain

People just bail or ignore those mechanics. Last time I got Qarn, the tank refused to open the doors to get the pieces because they said we can just fight the mobs that spawn at the end. They only did the mechanics that prevented them from progressing. And if you have enough of those mechanics, people just bail. So then they become content that is only cleared with premades. SE looks at people bailing, looks into why people are bailing, and changes things so people don't bail. Because they don't want to make content that people are just going to refuse to do.

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People also bail because people refuse to cooperate. This was the case for Steps of Faith. Ok who wants to do towers and impale the dragon? *crickets* often times I would have to do it and no one else wanted to. This often means that developers now make things be more individual based rather than design things with teamwork in mind.

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Originally Posted by RayneBoemir

People also bail because people refuse to cooperate. This was the case for Steps of Faith. Ok who wants to do towers and impale the dragon? *crickets* often times I would have to do it and no one else wanted to. This often means that developers now make things be more individual based rather than design things with teamwork in mind.

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I haven't seen DF worry about those in a long time in that instance.

They were an issue at first because you had wait for Vishap to reach the end before you could try again. That's what made people bail, since they knew they were going to be lying there dead while this dragon plodded on. A better example would be how incredibly punishing The Vault was when it first came out and how people would bail on that in a second because one person did one wrong thing and the fight was already lost.

They are making things that work on a more individual basis but that's not bad a thing. It means that one weak point won't bring everything down.

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Originally Posted by Kazelus

Outside of savage there is not really a need in moving your camera to see a mechs, and even in savage you don't need it that much. One of my friends have a great sensibility over motion sickness and moving the camera is prohibited for her but she actually manage to beat Asphodelos without any help (PS4 and no vocal.). Outside some fight like E8S where the balls on Shiva head were really hard to see for melee, there is not an absolute necessity of a better camera... Would it be a good QoL changes ? Totally, but not a necessity.

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Are we playing the same game? There's loadsa stuff where you need to be spinning the camera to see whats going on.

Few recentish examples:

Paradigms Reach - having to spin the camera too see what those giant tree clones are going to be doing.
Endsinger Ex. - watching out for planets popping behind you whist keeping tabs on her face.
Aglaia - having to move the camera frequently to see where the hammers and stuff are or which finger doesnt have the orb on or which fireball will move in which direction.
Hydaelyn - to see where those "wave" things are spawning or the direction they're flowing..
Alzadaals Legacy - seeing where the lazers and stuff are spawning. or which curtains are safe
Smiloton? - having to watch the face statues outside the arena sides..
Rabanastre - boss with giant spinning pot.. so big it's off the top of the screen even at maximum zoom unless you literally stand on the bosses feet and point the camera vertically down.

and a whole bunch of other mechanincs where the indicators arent even in the arena but on one of many statues surrounding it.. or sometimes up in the sky like having to look up to see how the meteors will come down into the ground and in what order.

There's loads of occasions where more freedom over the camera would be a huge benefit. doesn't make enounters impossible admittedly but it can be super nausseatting having to juggle it so much..

You did get an option for difficulty for quest fights. You get ultima, savage,and unreal content. I don't know why your complaining that think they need to add anymore difficulty to the game. Maybe next they should add where the tank or healer just randomly disconnects in boss fights to add more of a challenge for you that like challenges. We sure don't need them to start putting out less content than we get even now.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Yet you treat that as a clear sign of WoW being "casual-unfriendly"?

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One of its many signs

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Which has what, exactly, to do with the "+15 reward".

Okay, rolling with your goalpost switch...

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Are you pretending to not be aware that you get mythic gear in the vault by buying a m15? Or did you conveniently forget to pretend I changed the goalposts

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

In what world would you possibly need Mythic raid level gear while spitting at anyone and everyone who raids?

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Ah and the person who pretended to be casual uses the typical elitist argument of "casuals dont deserve cool things and max gear cuz they are inferior to us l33t raiders"
Power progression is part of mmorpgs, if you power progression is 30 ilvls below therefore worthless trash, it aint worth playing when you can literally just buy easily m15 boosts each week.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

it's not going to be enough to compensate for a lack of skill in PvP

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Spoken like someone who clearly has not played random bgs since SL started

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Originally Posted by Kazelus

Everything should be harder than MSQ to push people to learn the basics of the game before they reach max level. People that doesn't AoE trash packs, healbot and single-pulling tank should not be a thing past 50 and the only way to do so is to create some challenge on the way, nothing really hard but something that forces people into actually playing correctly.

And when you said that this MMO respects your time, clearly it's the reverse with how some people think that it is normal to go slow in dungeons...

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Disagree; I think that is the beauty of the way the game is designed. There isn’t one required way to run dungeons. It is entirely up to what the specific party in the specific instance agree to do.

My wife, who will never tank outside of our specific circle of friends, isn’t comfortable taking many mobs at once. One grandma friend is not comfortable healing, but wants to experience the story of the job. They can level in roulettes together at a slower pace and enjoy the game their way.

In the same way if I take a massive pack of mobs and see the random healer struggling, I’ll slow up a bit or ask if they’re good or not.

There is no need for anyone to force a way to play the game, however (sub)optimal, and that is a good thing.

If we are talking niche content like EX or Savage, then sure, by all means optimize away. I would even say YES to making them harder. MSQ though? Nah, devs know if they make it too rigid, the average casual gamer is happy to quit and go back to the Sims or Cookie Crush.

The core content of the game is meant for everybody to clear to enjoy a story. Even grandma.

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Originally Posted by Ralphe2449

One of its many signs

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Each of supposed which, thus far, XIV has been just as culpable of, or you've been incorrect or massively exaggerative about.

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Ah and the person who pretended to be casual...

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Playing under 5 hours per week, often as few as 2, is pretty damn casual, yes. How one chooses to use that time is up to them. Not bothering to consult guides and usually having time only to warm up, if doing so at all, while searching for a group, sticking to cheap food and pots so long as I'm keeping up with the group, etc., is likewise far from "hardcore". That did not prevent me from logging on after work, sitting down with a beer and music to pug some M+ on off-meta specs, and pretty quickly getting pasts 10s and, within a few months, past the reward cap.

Unless subbing for friends, I don't raid, because I don't have a fixed schedule and I don't much enjoy group sizes larger than a dozen or so. As such, it's damn nice to me that I can just hop online, do my job in a typically amiable group of 5, and progress (even if I do think the GV reward is weirdly distant from the base loot from the same difficulty tier). It was gear-intensive progression path, more so than PvP, but by not so much so that I couldn't rapidly catch up on alts, keeping up with those some 10 to 15 ilvl higher than I was. As someone who didn't care much for the strictures of raids and had little time per week, yeah, that was nice. One might even say, pretty casual friendly.

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...uses the typical elitist argument of "casuals dont deserve cool things and max gear cuz they are inferior to us l33t raiders"
Power progression is part of mmorpgs, if you power progression is 30 ilvls below therefore worthless trash, it aint worth playing when you can literally just buy easily m15 boosts each week.

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Except, you've listed the reason right there: Power progression.

Should someone who never does Chocobo races have immediate access to the best chocobos? Should someone get a complete Triple Triad deck just from having raided, never even bothering to go back and farm particular cards? Those are returns on investment in a way that matters to that content. They are forms of progression.

Extreme item level does not matter to doing the MSQ; it often even syncs you down. Extreme item level does not matter to doing dungeons; they generally even sync you down. So why would placating someone who refuses to do any content for which that progress is applicable warrant destroying that progression for those who actually do the applicable content?

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Spoken like someone who clearly has not played random bgs since SL started

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Both randoms and rated. And arenas. You seem to be forgetting that PvP was the quickest, easiest way to initially gear up, which, as it happened, was a larger factor for PvE than for PvP. Once I had enough ilvl to skip the duller, in my opinion, early parts of PvE progress, I didn't go back except to join a friend for the occasional 2v2 or random BG, but yeah, I've played it. And yes, there were alternate gearing paths that I could do just through MSQ and World Quests, but I'd much rather lose occasionally and actually enjoy myself than just run screaming from the slightest of uphill battles.

Again, I would likewise prefer that Random BGs, at least, standardize our total stat levels (so long as we still have control over those secondary stats and it's not JUST synced down, breaking Haste thresholds and the like), but it truly wasn't as big a deal as you make out. You weren't locked out forevermore just because of a gearing advantage. It wasn't as large a factor as you make out and there were many other players there likewise putting alts through their early paces, too. You have not been systematically tyrannized.

If the "In From the Cold" nerfs taught us anything, it's that the vast majority of the player base seems incapable of understanding context clues and is completely helpless without something akin to a bright neon arrow pointing them to exactly where they need to go.

It is my fervent hope that SE understands that said casual players will simply abandon the game when it becomes too boring for them, which it will in record time due to how absolutely braindead most content has become. SE will also lose the more dedicated fan base that was the source of this games revival and success in the process. SE will once again make the corporate mistake of prioritizing short-term profits over long-term sustained growth. I'm reminded of a line from the intro cutscene in Secret of Mana; time flows like a river, and history repeats. It seems as if the hubris of SE may once again be on the rise, with dedicated fans and new players alike, who both enjoy a challenge, being left behind in favor of the FotM fly-by-night casual crowd who will largely tap out after a handful of months.

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

See, this is the thing. I'm 100% confident that I would be as good or better than most of the people progging savage in any given instance. But, as a casual player I don't have the time to sit there and prog for 2 hours, and I don't really have the ability to commit to a certain time/day with a static. As a casual player, 30 minutes is really the longest that I can really commit to a play session, some sessions go above that, but I can't really COMMIT to that. So I'm locked out of that strictly because of time, that's all. I agree that the difficulty is fine for casual players, but I just really can't commit to the time for it.

This is another instance of the overlap of "not taking the game seriously" and "don't have that much time to play"

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That's totally fair.
I am fortunate enough to have a lot of time whenenver I choose.
So I can take a whole day and just grind out a boss, altho with that said most of that day will be spent trying to find people who aren't blatantly lying about where in the fight they are lol.
I spent a whole week on each fight in P2-4S because of that, because every single group I joined was full of people for example who joined a FoA/ clear P3S group when they couldn't get past adds or even put down the fires on the squares at the start.
It was easily the most infuriating experience and what held me back because I learned the fight really really fast but then had to spend a whole week on it because people are blatant liars and waste your time.

I think I cleared all of them in the middle of the night on reset day, that's when you'll find similar people who are just really desperate and have been having the same experience.
With P4S I ended up in a helper group I mean there were still issues with this but at least it wasn't as bad.
Next tier I am getting into on day 1 and will hopefully get clears relatively early on compared to this tier.
But I learned my lesson and I won't be as greedy with the coffers anymore.
Spending a whole week for a chance on the coffers when people lie so much isn't worth it, better to just get some help from people who have already cleared when you know the fight.