Just remove healers.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

People have admitted, recently in these forums, to being afraid of my "opinions."
An accomplishment you'll never achieve.

Bye!

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To be fair even I’m afraid I lose my last remaining brain cells that I have left from playing healer when I read your posts. I had too buy 2 new keyboard last expansion when I was a healer main because my 1 button broke spamming my dmg kit even as a astro.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

...

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You know anecdotal evidence means nothing when there are actual numbers that disagree with you right?

Edit: I should have just ignored them when they said synced to level 60 because that data is absolutely worthless.

Debating if I want to post this but whatever ;) There's no harm in doing this:

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

snip

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You're picking a level range where most jobs are not in their most balanced state when being pit against each other for whatever reason. Basically you've excluded DNC's Flourish, Devilment, Technical Step & Buff, Esprit Generation, Fan Dance III & IV, Tilana, and Starfall Dance off the calculation.

But sure, let's humor the board a little bit more. I'll do a 30s simulation against two targets at level 60.

Calculating SGE's is simple. You will E.Dosis one of the target because it's a slight gain at 350p vs 320p assuming they tick for its full duration. I will also add two blasts of Phlegmas into this short 30s window. Within 12 GCDs, a SGE would've dealt a total of 350+(495*2)+(320*9) = 4,220p of damage.350+(561*2)+(320*9) = 4,352p of damage.

Moving on to DNC. Assuming they enter a combat by initiating standard step, their first GCD will be a 'dead GCD' as it deals no damage. Their finisher damage comes out at butt end of 2nd GCD at a total of 900p damage (720p first target, 180p 2nd target). After that it's a stream of 1-2-1-2 combo, sprinkled with procs if they lights up. I'll take your calculated average potency per GCD with added nuance: standard step personal buff at 5%, which bumps their average potency per GCD up to 153p. With this in mind, a DNC would've dealt a total of 900+(306*10) = 3,960p of damage.

Current figure = 4,352p vs 3,960p in 2 target situation

Oh great! SGE wins! So I guess you're proven correct, then? Not quite, we're not done yet ;) You've forgotten that DNC, as a physical ranged DPS has a not-so-negligible auto attacks unlike spellcasters', which is practically a 70p-80p of damage every 3s vs whatever they're targeting. We'll take the middle ground of 75p per auto attacks. In the span of 30s they would've attacked 9 times (not 10 because you're not auto attacking on your first dance steps). This adds additional 675*1.05 = 709p of total personal damage dealt a DNC dishes out which shifts the figure to:

4,352p vs 4,669p in 2 target situation

Yet, this is just lv60 AND without accounting the buff the DNC gave to their partner. Combined with those additional numbers, there's just no way a SGE can outdps a DNC, at 60 or 90. If you exclude standard finisher entirely from this calculation, the DNC will come out slightly ahead of the SGE at (292*12)+(75*10) = 4,254p of total damage dealt, slightly short of 98p.

A bad DPS getting outdamaged is an entirely different matter, but at least you and your trolling keeps the thread bumped up. Stay delusional.

EDIT: Had to scratch the wrong values but point still stands. There are better answers in form of log snippets few posts after mine though.

guys instead of gigabraining math or whatever you can just...... post data

https://prnt.sc/W6zAZlghhCbT

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Debating if I want to post this but whatever ;) There's no harm in doing this:
You're picking a level range where most jobs are not in their most balanced state when being pit against each other for whatever reason.

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Because the character I was on could do S-S-S on with both classes. And I think mid-level matters because that's common in Duty Roulette and important to new players.
But feel free to run the numbers for any level you choose.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

But sure, let's humor the board a little bit more. I'll do a 30s simulation against two targets at level 60.

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Two targets isn't the right analysis. A good trash mob pull has more than two mobs, and accordingly the single-target effects that give DNC an advantage have less effect.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Calculating SGE's is simple. You will E.Dosis one of the target because it's a slight gain at 350p vs 320p ... [and] two blasts of Phlegmas into this short 30s window. Within 12 GCDs, a SGE would've dealt a total of 350+(495*2)+(320*9) = 4,220p of damage.

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Not sure where you get 495 for each Phlegma from: SE's SGE guide says it has "a potency of 400 for the first enemy, and 30% less" -- 280 -- " for all remaining enemies," which is 680 on 2 targets and 960 on 3. So the SGE number should be 4590. And against 3 targets, and skipping the E.Dosis, SGE gets (480*10)+(960*2) = 6720.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Moving on to DNC. ... Their finisher damage [is] a total of 900p damage (720p first target, 180p 2nd target). After that it's a stream of 1-2-1-2 combo, sprinkled with procs if they lights up. I'll take your calculated average potency per GCD with added nuance: standard step personal buff at 5%, which bumps their average potency per GCD up to 153p. With this in mind, a DNC would've dealt a total of 900+(306*10) = 3,960p of damage.

Current figure = 4,220p vs 3,960p in 2 target situation

Oh great! SGE wins! ... [But] DNC, as a physical ranged DPS has a not-so-negligible auto attacks ... we'll take the middle ground of 75p per auto attacks. In the span of 30s they would've attacked 9 times (not 10 because you're not auto attacking on your first dance steps). This adds additional 675*1.05 = 709p of total personal damage dealt a DNC dishes out which shifts the figure to:

4,220p vs 4,669p in 2 target situation

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Except you undervalued Phlegma, so it's 4590 vs. 4669. That difference is in the noise.

Worse than that, the balance shifts for even just one more mob.
For three mobs, SGE rises to 6720, and DNC rises to only 6380, because the main damage of Standard step is only one target and auto-attack is only one target. 4 mobs it's 8850 SGE to 8089 DNC. This is a consequence of the large contribution single-target effects make to DNC.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Combined with those additional numbers, there's just no way a SGE can outdps a DNC, at 60 or 90.

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Except that using your numbers, SGE wins over DNC for three or more mobs.
So "no way" is a bit of an overstatement, wouldn't you say?

Why did you choose two mobs, anyway? Is that a typical trash pull for you?
Didn't you realize that having only two mobs gives maximum advantage to DNC?
And the E.Dosis was DPS-negative when there are three or more?

Anyway, thanks for the analysis.
Based on it I will refine my previous statement:
A SGE can out-DPS a DNC when doing AoE attacks on three or more mobs.
Now get out there and do it!

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Originally Posted by QooEr

guys instead of gigabraining math or whatever you can just...... post data
https://prnt.sc/W6zAZlghhCbT

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Two limitations of data like that:

• It depends on the skill of the players (like, do those SGE even know how good SGE is at 3+ mob AoE?)
• It's an aggregate that include single-target (e.g. boss) combat, and we're talking specifically AoE against multiple mobs.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

snippet of completely false information and headcanons

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Yeah uh sorry mate but there's one little thing you haven't considered
POTENCIES ARE NOT EQUAL
Potency x on job y is not equal to potency x on job z.
Each job has different modifiers applied based on a mixture of upkeep buffs, innate traits, soul crystal stat modifiers, and damage scalar from main attribute (which is different depending on role).

Look at these funny statistics:

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Originally Posted by QooEr

https://prnt.sc/W6zAZlghhCbT

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There is no amount of cope you can post that will make this untrue.
Healers do less damage than each other role, and nothing you can say will change that.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Continued delusional rambling

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You can see the spread based on skill levels right there in the image, I mean if you're so smart you clearly know how to read a goddamn graph right?
Also the majority of damage dealt in a dungeon is dealt to mobs rather than bosses so logically jobs with better aoe potential will shine regardless of the brief moments where you're hitting a single target.

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Originally Posted by Martynek

Yeah uh sorry mate but there's one little thing you haven't considered
POTENCIES ARE NOT EQUAL.

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Learn to read for comprehension:
I determined the damage per potency experimentally, and for my SGE (4.1 d/p) and my DNC (3.9 d/p) they were within the margin of error.
It's right in the post, up at that top.

If the d/p for the two classes had been [substantially] different, I would have scaled by the ratio.

I suggest you let smarter, more rational people, like Rein_eon_Osborne, represent your side of the argument.
You're just an embarrassment to it.

If you trot on down to that forbidden website and look at the dungeon logs from the sage that was top ranked you will notice one of their 100 parses had a dnc in it. Take that for what you will for real data.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

1-2-3-1-2-3 excitment

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It IS much more more exciting, not only gives a bit of room for failure but also those 1-2-3 combos have something else attached to them, be it resource generation/different effects that tied into each other/positionals/branching paths, those tools are far more engaging than spam 1 button over 100 times per instance

The whole combat fast changing is nonsense, there is no fight in the game that changes wildly from AoE to ST outside very short specific scenarios and add phases and there is no extra thought or complexity in changing from "standard single target nuke that does not have any consequence" to "standard AoE nuke that does not have any consequence".

Not even gonna comment on the intelligence one, just gonna say that thinking so highly of changing from spamming 1 to spamming 2 speaks way more about you than me.

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Outparse and healing dungeons

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Out-parsed, yes, out-damaged no and its impossible as proven by logs:
https://i.gyazo.com/eab28e3d389f2f8f...afe512489c.png
(I'm just showing normal mode as it has way more AoE than any raid)

As anyone can see even at the 95th percentile a Sage which boast the highest dps in dungeons is significantly less damaging than a dps on the same range, in fact as shown in the following image one would have to go as low as as 40th percentile (definitively not "good" players) to see a dps comparable to what a 95th percentile Sage does:
https://i.gyazo.com/34cfdaaa516967b5...2bb740ccf8.png

Dungeons runs are so absurdly undertuned that tanks can solo them so there is barely anything to heal and there is a large amount of examples of Exs and above that do not require healers so the whole "watching the tank bar go low" argument fails by game design, even in the encounters with significant damage (super high end basically) due to the scripted nature of healing in the game there is no variation (and as such the healing gameplay is lacking being more a puzzle than actual fast thinking) and no adjustment bar "this guy fucked up the mechanic" and in those scenarios the fuck ups are usually non healable instant deaths, as healer healing is only fun the first clear, past that is mindless repetition with a bland kit that does not even require even a 10% of my GCDs and not even a 40% of my whole gameplay actions. As example of how fucked this is here is a P4S P2 log as Sage (which has the highest hps requirements of the current tier):

https://i.gyazo.com/1088eee8118cb64c...6164d496db.png

Dosis alone was almost 60% of all I did in the fight and the whole healing not even reached 25% of my total casts and not even 1% of my total GCDs even tough I was the healer healing the most in that encounter

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Ever done that? If not, why not?
If so, where you bored by it?

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As shown previously, I've done that in probably a variety of encounters far wider than most of the people, Where I bored? Let's say that mindlessly pressing the same button 144 times is not precisely what could be described as good MMO gameplay :)

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Why you enjoy it argument and insults

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There was no argument to begin with I was just surprised and found funny the intellectual dishonesty using dyskrasia as example of engaging gameplay in Sage is and thought no one could be saying it seriously. If you find it complex and engaging more power to you but as said previously it says a lot about you

Let alone how I said "no one is this dense" as insult (if you consider it one) where you straight up said "Understanding that and adapting to it on the fly takes some intelligence you don't seem to have."

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So why don't you ask questions like the above? Are you afraid of the answers?
And why are you so desperate to convince other people that

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In the message I replied to there was not a single question so I don't know what you want me to answer but...

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different values

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I'll answer this:
First I do not think that lack of brain is a requirement for enjoying the job, however in this game I do think that outside very small niches like optimization the majority of players that enjoy it are simply extremely innexperienced.

There is a multitude of reasons but they can be summed up with:
-Extremely bland kit with only "apparent" complexity
-Multitude of redundant tools
-Scripted game design
-Lack of healing requirements make healers barely necessary if they are to begin with

Healing for the less skilled can be sometimes fun as they do not realize the true power of their tools, do not know the standard healing playstyle or simply do not read their tooltips but past that point it becomes a role about doing a mindless, extremely repetitive task over and over to fulfill a job that may not even be necessary or impactful which is quite the opposite of engaging.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Not sure where you get 495 for each Phlegma from: SE's SGE guide says it has "a potency of 400 for the first enemy, and 30% less" -- 280 -- " for all remaining enemies," which is 680 on 2 targets and 960 on 3. So the SGE number should be 4590. And against 3 targets, and skipping the E.Dosis, SGE gets (480*10)+(960*2) = 6720.

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We actually did had it wrong on some parts. I was wrong with the damage falloff portion, while you are wrong on the main target potency. Phlegma at lv60 is only 330p thanks to lv54 trait with 30% fall off. So it would be 330+(231*x).

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Except you undervalued Phlegma, so it's 4590 vs. 4669. That difference is in the noise.

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You've also undervalued the standard finish buff that the DNC gave to their partner which also counts to their overall contribution. Coupled with that a SGE will never outdps a DNC.

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Didn't you realize that having only two mobs gives maximum advantage to DNC?
Anyway, thanks for the analysis.
Based on it I will refine my previous statement:
A SGE can out-DPS a DNC when doing AoE attacks on three or more mobs.
Now get out there and do it!

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Didn't you realize excluding DNC's full kits with the assumption of "this is what I get from DR Levelling most of time" is also unfair considering how jobs are designed to function at their best at their cap level? You know that people would assume that everybody is on cap level when speaking of similar discussion until you barge in? You know a healer will NEVER comes close to any good DPS, so is this why you cherry pick a lv60 as your delusional baseline? (I wish I know exactly where I could find that page QooEr & WaxSw linking without having to scour aimlessly! They prove you flat wrong, period).

You really should add "Lv60" to further refine your delusions :rolleyes:
Now play your game & get a better delusions!

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

We actually did had it wrong on some parts. I was wrong with the damage falloff portion, while you are wrong on the main target potency. Phlegma at lv60 is only 330p thanks to lv54 trait with 30% fall off. So it would be 330+(231*x).

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Hmm, yeah, I wasn't in game and I used the L90 numbers from the website.
My bad. But you can just use Dyskrasia and SGE still wins for big packs of mobs.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

You've also undervalued the standard finish buff that the DNC gave to their partner which also counts to their overall contribution.

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Closed position isn't available below L60, so for much of Duty Roulette, it isn't there.
And when it is, and my spouse is on DNC, I get it, because I'm usually the top DPS on trash pulls, and it's easy to switch to someone else for boss fights.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Didn't you realize excluding DNC's full kits with the assumption of "this is what I get from DR Levelling most of time" is also unfair considering how jobs are designed to function at their best at their cap level?

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You do understand that the reason I posted the analysis to begin with is because people here accused me of either lying about my DPS output or beating only incompetent DPS? Neither of which were true of course, but your side of this argument doesn't seem to value truth. Anyway, for me, all this analysis does is confirm my real-life experience.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

You know that people would assume that everybody is on cap level when speaking of similar discussion until you barge in?

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Why would anyone assume that when talking about Duty Roulette? Besides, playing FFXIV at cap level is the most boring part of FFXIV, and far less important to the game than Duty Roulette. Content at cap is a sop tossed to a fervent minority to keep them online until the new content comes out.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

(I wish I know exactly where I could find that page QooEr & WaxSw linking without having to scour aimlessly! They prove you flat wrong, period).[/I]

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How do you know what those sites prove, if you haven't found them? Wishful thinking on your part isn't proof. Besides, you already proved me right.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

You really should add "Lv60" to further refine your delusions :rolleyes:

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And now, after a brief stint of rationality and scientific thinking that unfortunately didn't go your way in the end, you revert to BS assertions you can't actually back. Are you so emotionally committed to your opinions that you can deny the facts you yourself discovered because those facts contradict them? That's Orwellian doublethink, and it is not a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

You do understand that the reason I posted the analysis to begin with is because people here accused me of either lying about my DPS output or beating only incompetent DPS? Neither of which were true of course, but your side of this argument doesn't seem to value truth. Anyway, for me, all this analysis does is confirm my real-life experience.

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Believe what you want, whatever makes you happier. Just don't be surprised when people call you out for being false because datas are showing the otherwise. Our gigabrain math attempts earlier really stops mattering once QooEr and WaxSw uploaded those snippets.

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Why would anyone assume that when talking about Duty Roulette? Besides, playing FFXIV at cap level is the most boring part of FFXIV, and far less important to the game than Duty Roulette. Content at cap is a sop tossed to a fervent minority to keep them online until the new content comes out.

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I said DF. Duty Finder. Roulette is but a part of the DF, not necessarily everything that makes up every player's DF experience.

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How do you know what those sites prove, if you haven't found them? Wishful thinking on your part isn't proof. Besides, you already proved me right.

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Because... I plow through the website a few times in the past? Because... those caps of similar content are sent elsewhere, and like here? Because... I took my time in the past to try understand what those graphs means? I'm just saying so because those two folks provided a far better answer than my attempt to gigabrain math which is not immune to human errors. If you truly value the act of clarifying the truth, you should know logs are more credible than anything else you can find. You didn't however, for whatever reason.

But yeah okay. You do you. You're free to disagree. :shrug: I've done my part. :( Guess I just can't convince you, worth trying though.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

But yeah okay. You do you. You're free to disagree. :shrug: I've done my part. :( Guess I just can't convince you, worth trying though.

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Sad to see you abandoning reasoned, fact-based results for the vague memories of websites you can't find now, in the belief that those websites prove your own analysis wrong.

And the snippets posted here prove nothing about the issue we were analyzing, because they just show aggregated data. I wish you could put aside your prejudices long enough to see that, you're clearly smart enough.

You were so proud and confident in your analysis until I pointed out the issues I had with it.
You really shouldn't abandon scientific analytic thinking just because you don't like the results.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Content at cap is a sop tossed to a fervent minority to keep them online until the new content comes out.

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When was the last time they added a completely new dungeon, raid, or trial to the game that was not synced to the current maximum level?

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

That's Orwellian doublethink, and it is not a good thing.

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"They aren't respecting my delusions?! LITERALLY NINETEEN EIGHTY FOUR!!!!!!!!"
you're like a parody of a parody lol.

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Originally Posted by Silverbane

Sad to see you abandoning reasoned, fact-based results for the vague memories of websites you can't find now, in the belief that those websites prove your own analysis wrong.

And the snippets posted here prove nothing about the issue we were analyzing, because they just show aggregated data. I wish you could put aside your prejudices long enough to see that, you're clearly smart enough.

You were so proud and confident in your analysis until I pointed out the issues I had with it.
You really shouldn't abandon scientific analytic thinking just because you don't like the results.

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-Ignores literal data got from multitude of samples through reliable methods and twist them to say it proves other person wrong when only proves them wrong
-Favors personal non measured experience in a very tiny number of samples ignoring major factors as damage calculation formulas or party buffs
-Claims other people are leaving scientific analytic thinking but not them

The joke tells itself, its like playing chess with a pigeon

You can just run a level 60 dungeon with a DNC and SGE and look at the live data, I'm not even sure what point we're arguing about here though lol

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

-Ignores literal data got from multitude of samples through reliable methods and twist them to say it proves other person wrong when only proves them wrong
-Favors personal non measured experience in a very tiny number of samples ignoring major factors as damage calculation formulas or party buffs
-Claims other people are leaving scientific analytic thinking but not them

The joke tells itself, its like playing chess with a pigeon

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They are just a troll who intentionally makes terrible, baseless arguments, ignores when people post real data disproving their arguments because they are so indoctrinated to their own falsehoods they can't see how bad they are just trolling themselves.

Honestly, everyone should just collectively ignore their posts and continue discussion around them so hopefully they give up, think they won because we are just ignoring the stupidity, or keep ranting to themselves.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

-Ignores literal data got from multitude of samples through reliable methods and twist them to say it proves other person wrong when only proves them wrong
-Favors personal non measured experience in a very tiny number of samples ignoring major factors as damage calculation formulas or party buffs
-Claims other people are leaving scientific analytic thinking but not them

The joke tells itself, its like playing chess with a pigeon

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Hmm, actually bad comparison, pigeons are pretty smart https://pigeonpedia.com/are-pigeons-smart/

I remember doing 3-dps 1 tank runs of smileton and dreamscape within a week of hitting lvl 90

A compromise being you could just give Healers more DPS buttons? As a White Mage I'd surely appreciate it.
This idea you don't need healers is just nonsense and arrogant ignorance. Why do you need Tanks? Why not just have DPS have more mitigation. lol

At that point why play x flavor of DPS class when you could play ... "The Best DPS" class ™️ (so basically Samurai) Anything else would be garbage right?

You wanna play that game? With this GCD? 2 seconds of pure molasses-slow gameplay.

The game is a dance. If you do the dance right you take less damage. Yet people fail at that all the time, people slip up on mitigation on big pulls, and people fail DPS checks.

We don't live in a perfect world.

My point is, sometimes stuff happens, someone has to deal with it and who are you gonna call?

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Originally Posted by Nadda

This idea you don't need healers is just nonsense and arrogant ignorance.

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Are you sure about that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gi05HqdMSs - Ultimate Coil done with 8 tanks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdDxjXMMWgU - E4S (when current) done with 2 tanks and 6 dps

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1qL4y1J7Mh EX1 (Spoilers EW) done with 2 tanks 6 dps

The idea you don't need healers doesn't seem that nonsensical...

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Originally Posted by Nadda

This idea you don't need healers is just nonsense and arrogant ignorance

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It's really not. You already barely need any heals on the tanks outside of big pulls and high-end content. You could slightly tune the damage and self-healing to make healers completely redundant for tanks. And give just a handful of DPS jobs a decent 60s cooldown healing ability and the only players who die to unavoidable damage are the ones eating avoidables too, with some leeway depending if they bother to put Second Wind on their hotbar.

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Why do you need Tanks? Why not just have DPS have more mitigation. lol

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Tanks actually have innate defense that makes them necessary. Tank privilege is a very real thing and you regularly see tanks just shrug off hits at +4 vuln stack that would absolutely KO a DPS not at full health. DPS will die in 12 seconds just to auto-attacks in unsynced raids. You'd need to go into full on encounter re-design to make tanks redundant, where for healers it's really just about giving DPS one more ability. Hell, they've already had to nerf Reapers' party heal already because just one DPS having a single decent heal was making actual healers pointless.

Healers being "redundant or "useless" depends on the party. I won't claim whether its,good or bad design but as someone else stated there will always be someone messing up somewhere. If you feel you want to play the game without healers I say go for it. Most other players will opt to keep em in their groups as per design.

You give healers more dps option they just become green dps (in which id imagine the next point will be "why not just play a dps"). They nerf tank survivability you end up with upset tank mains.
Idk, I don't see a clear cut path

Healing really does feel like a formality at this point, huh... Like you just have to have the role "because MMO." It's a real shame. I started as a CNJ in 2.0 and just seeing the role become so insipid and bland over the years really sucks

To anyone who could answer this, I ask out of curiosity: how fare the healers over on the JP side of things? Do they have the same or similar grievances? Or are they content with the way things are now?

"well timmy you have weak little legs, instead of putting you on the protein we're just going to amputate"

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

Most other players will opt to keep em in their groups as per design

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I'm willing to bet this is just because the game forces you to have healers via matchmaking and you can only go into non-standard healer runs with a full premade which not every player has access to most of the time, same with high end duty, outside of prog the main reason why 2 healers are brought instead of just 1 or none at all is either healer targeted mechanics (so 1 healer less would make that much more inconsistent) and ironically fflogs as 1/0 healers are deemed non-standard

Quote:

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You give healers more dps option they just become green dps (in which id imagine the next point will be "why not just play a dps")

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https://i.gyazo.com/1088eee8118cb64c...6164d496db.png

We ARE already green dps, our GCDs are over 90% of the time used for that goal and our total healing casts barely reach 40% of our total actions, the only real difference that an actual rotation would make is that instead of pressing the same button 144 times that count could be reduced to 70 and the remaining 74 casts used in more interesting and fun options

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

I'm willing to bet this is just because the game forces you to have healers via matchmaking and you can only go into non-standard healer runs with a full premade which not every player has access to most of the time, same with high end duty, outside of prog the main reason why 2 healers are brought instead of just 1 or none at all is either healer targeted mechanics (so 1 healer less would make that much more inconsistent) and ironically fflogs as 1/0 healers are deemed non-standard



https://i.gyazo.com/1088eee8118cb64c...6164d496db.png

We ARE already green dps, our GCDs are over 90% of the time used for that goal and our total healing casts barely reach 40% of our total actions, the only real difference that an actual rotation would make is that instead of pressing the same button 144 times that count could be reduced to 70 and the remaining 74 casts used in more interesting and fun options

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I can only go by what I see in game. Even in pf folks still bring healers to most content. That that'll vary by server but again that's what I see.

And my point is doing that would only make it feel even more like they're just green dps. You don't double down on that issue, cause if you do then the complaints of healers not being healers really surfaces. Just saying I personally don't see a clear cut way to do this right that'd satisfy the most people

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Are you sure about that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gi05HqdMSs - Ultimate Coil done with 8 tanks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdDxjXMMWgU - E4S (when current) done with 2 tanks and 6 dps

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1qL4y1J7Mh EX1 (Spoilers EW) done with 2 tanks 6 dps

The idea you don't need healers doesn't seem that nonsensical...

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You're both trying to make the exception the rule. This is a fallacy.
I wish I could play with those groups shown honestly such dedication is rare. I commend their efforts. How many attempts I wonder.
Do you believe the feats they pulled to be easy? Or without the reasonable effort of precise teamwork?
Most of you are not as good as you think you are to coordinate such a feat let alone attempting it in every encounter, That's why it is nonsense.
Observe the very specific class stacking occurring? You don't just bring any ho-hum DPS job you want on board but the ones with the most utility.

You'll have to excuse my obtuse point of saying remove Tanks as you are so inclined. @ThorneDynasty However, as our friend, Rolder just showed content can be attempted likewise with just tanks so perhaps my example was misguided.

Look I understand the appeal of giving DPS one additional healing cool down for accidents, but the whole philosophy of a Player who chooses to heal is to take the DPS loss so that you can DPS more. I won't even bring up the futility of trying to remove White Mage from a Final Fantasy game of all things. I've seen MMOs go the path where you can build your own character with whatever skills you want... The gameplay of MMOs always gravitates back to the trinity. I've also seen what happens to classes when you give too much overlap. I've actually spoken with professionals in the field who have done class design. I can bring forth any questions you want to people I know for good measure to see what they think. They'd most likely give you similar answers.

You should redirect your efforts twofold. Ask for more dps options for healers as I had previously stated and to have bosses do more outgoing damage with more punishing mechanics.

If not accept the reality that what you are asking for is hegemonized class stacking where only people who play the "right job" get to do content and everything else may as well not exist.

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Originally Posted by IkaraGreydancer

I can only go by what I see in game. Even in pf folks still bring healers to most content. That that'll vary by server but again that's what I see.

And my point is doing that would only make it feel even more like they're just green dps. You don't double down on that issue, cause if you do then the complaints of healers not being healers really surfaces. Just saying I personally don't see a clear cut way to do this right that'd satisfy the most people

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The thing is, Whys is giving healers a more dps feel an issue? We already spend time spamming 1 button by the hundreds, giving us more options would be if anything benefitial as it would give the more dedicated players a less boring job and those who want to keep spamming the 1 button would still be able to do it, it just woudnt be the skill ceiling of the job

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Originally Posted by Nadda

You're both trying to make the exception the rule. This is a fallacy.
I wish I could play with those groups shown honestly such dedication is rare. I commend their efforts. How many attempts I wonder.
Do you believe the feats they pulled to be easy? Or without the reasonable effort of precise teamwork?

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Do you believe is easy? 1 healer runs are, as a matter of fact the most common 1 healer duties tend to be extremes, P1s and P2s:

The extremes have a HPS requirement at the 80th percentile (far above the average healing) of 8k for EX1, 10k for EX2 and 12k for EX3 while the first two savage floors at the same percentile require a healing of 10k for P1s and 12k for P2... A sage with a moderate use of its GCD and oGCD kit can easily reach above 13k so even in those runs which are in the top 20% of HPS a single healer could cover that same hps, this also leaves out how with 1 extra dps there is more dps in the group which leads to mechanics being skipped which can result in simpler runs. Its not hard to do and do not require that much effort.

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You should redirect your efforts twofold. Ask for more dps options for healers as I had previously stated and to have bosses do more outgoing damage with more punishing mechanics.

If not accept the reality that what you are asking for is hegemonized class stacking where only people who play the "right job" get to do content and everything else may as well not exist.

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The thing about increasing the game damage and dps options is... The devs already denied us the increasing in damage so thats why we're so fervent in asking for more damage options, because its the only other place we can go to solve this issue and the one that woudnt require a complete game redesign.

I fail to see how more damaging options would lead to a stricter meta, it would make the act of balancing more complicated but as long as one job is not straight up garbage it would still be played and even if it is it could have its following, look at 6.0 WHM as example which was objectively the worst healer at literally everything and the most played at the same time.

I believe we're on the same page in terms of giving healers more DPS options. Apologies for the confusion.

My point was looking at those healer free runs they all required a specific stacking of classes which isn't intended design to bypass healings necessity for most. This is a bit different than 1 Healer runs for trials and raids since why not! Perhaps a middle difficulty is in order to necessitate 2 healers, but I digress.

I'm talking specifically.
EX1 2 Reapers 4 Dancers in one. (why exactly this)
E4S 1 Dancer 5 Summoners another. (why exactly that?)
In both cases a tanking core of 1 Paladin and 1 Warrior both with the most sustainablity.

There are ways to optimize a run so that you can bypass mechanics. But these are exceptions. Exceptions being the rule is a Fallacy. I must reaffirm.

What others are arguing is that this should be the future of the game if you are to remove Healers. This is what you will have class stacking. Hegemonization. If you give people enough time they will optimize the fun out of anything. Soon the social expectation will become "well why aren't you playing x job, when y job they do more damage, or they give off this buff.. or with this comp we can complete this content 2 minutes faster. It will be ... Easier. I'm not inviting them they don't play x job, they don't have a high enough parse to..."

Sacraficing gameplay and bonds for convienence.

Reminds me of World of Warcraft and I would not suffer it here. It is a dead end.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

What others are arguing is that this should be the future of the game if you are to remove Healers. This is what you will have class stacking.

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Right, you wouldn't just outright remove healers without doing anything else. You'd give everyone a self heal, and maybe expand a tiny bit on the other heals that are already present on other classes or beef up tank sharable cooldowns slightly, which would *open* up what's possibly without having a dedicated healer, not constrict it.


That said, I suppose the one good thing about this thread lasting so long is that instead of getting a ton of pushback and 'no healing is perfect as is dont change anything, i love standing around picking my nose and casting one spell every twenty seconds' we're instead getting "compromises" saying what we really need is... the stuff people have been asking for for literal years, so, incremental progress there I guess! Now we just need the devs to start paying attention...

I understood the idea of giving DPS self heals but wouldn't that make the game even worse? Because we're not really addressing the core problem here. The fact these encounters aren't doing enough damage. We're removing the healer element because for one thing tanking and healing is so powerful the bosses pose no challenge so why have the healer along right? Or I suppose that's supposed to be the idea. That still wouldn't open up things. Because then you'd want the jobs with the most utility. It narrows things down further. Most Damage, Most utility.

Everyone just nods (not saying you of course) and goes "yeah yeah, just cut out all these jobs and their class quests in a patch, Put up a Wooden placard over the Conjurer's Guild that says 'Gone on Vacation' " It's humorous because they'd never cut out White Mage from a final fantasy game.

As I said in a previous post when given the option to build characters however you want in MMOs in those kinds there will always be natural gravitation toward the trinity. The idea is someone will always want to support the party and take the DPS loss so someone else can DPS more. I say again. Someone will intentionally take the DPS loss so another player can DPS more.

Would for every single DPS to have a self heal, would they all be instant? A Regen perhaps and would they do enough to basically undo the damage they took? Since fights are so choreographed this would infer everyone stops for a split second to use their heal cool down button when there's raid-wide damage. For a split second no damage is occurring. We removed the healer but we're removing a crucial element of the player interaction that contributes to the team through healing.

The fights are too easy I'll freely admit that. Now instead of addressing that issue, we're going to make it even easier by giving everyone a self-heal? What's the point in playing a game like that? I saw one person suggest having mobs simply do less damage. The demand should be to raise the bar to test the limits of our power. The paltry healing you can give yourself shouldn't be enough to suffice. It needs to have more kicks. A tank buster in EX shouldn't be so easily shrugged off.

Instead of raising the bar for ourselves, we'd be lowering it.

The flaw of the design is that the game is too lenient and forgiving, it wasn't made so as to just be easy for Healers but for everyone else as well. As I've stated mistakes happen more often than not. Should everyone have a raise? Where would it end? Are we to cut out all the things that hamper us until we are self-satisfied? For what purpose would there be for a group if I could go it alone?
What is a game where the challenge can be overcome by a single healing cool down? How could one be satisfied?

My dream is for real challenges that will test my limit. Such should be the wish of any adventurer.

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Originally Posted by Nadda

As I said in a previous post when given the option to build characters however you want in MMOs in those kinds there will always be natural gravitation toward the trinity. The idea is someone will always want to support the party and take the DPS loss so someone else can DPS more. I say again. Someone will intentionally take the DPS loss so another player can DPS more.

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I think I agree with most of your points in this thread. MOST. (I happen to like simple rotations and hate DoTs. I'd rather at least some healer DPS kits stay the same or maybe someone get a 1-2-3 like MCH to change things up but not be
DoT + spam")

But the rest I agree with.

Bosses don't deal enough damage and oGCDs are so powerful that healers aren't taxed on the healing side of things, so they feel they need to perform on the DPS side and their kits just aren't made for that to be interesting.

The core issue you have half correct - the lack of damage output by enemies. I say half because the other half is - how powerful oGCDs are so you really don't HAVE to use GCDs on heals in most situations.

PvP has put healing on people (as have other games) and what we tend to see is either people don't use it (Second Wind in PvE) or people spam it (Recuperate in PvP) to the point it becomes too powerful anyway. So it's either a DPS loss no one uses (because a lot of DPS have the mindset of doing damage, not healing), or it's too powerful and makes content trivial. Neither is a good thing.

And also you're right that people will gravitate to the Trinity. Or in rare occasions, a Quaternity (Tank/Healer/Damage/Support). Guild Wars 2 started with no Trinity and the idea everyone is their own tank and healer, but what ended up happening was some people would gravitate to healing anyway for dungeons, so eventually they just broke down and made it part of the game.

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Originally Posted by Martynek

You are not being forced to include Ninjas in your groups to be able to play the game. You are, however, forced to bring a healer. What if I want to play the game with my friends, but none of us want to play a healer? Should we just have to give in and knowingly subject one another to mental torture?

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What if none of you wanted to play tank? What if none of your friend group wanted to play DPS?

After trying all of the melee DPSers, I dislike them all. I've yet to find ONE that I like. For casters, I dislike BLM and am neutral on RDM. SMN is the only one I like. For Ranged, I don't care for DNC or really BRD. I'm neutral on MCH. So out of all the DPS in the game, I like SMN and find MCH and RDM tolerable. Should we remove DPS from the game because I dislike them?

Most of the people in my friends group play healers and tanks. We all have a DPS alt because we "have to" for when we want to do things and the tank/heal slots are full. Tanks are also far more often AIN than healers and the hardest slots to fill in most parties. When I look through PF for Ex and Sav, healers tend to fill before tanks, so CLEARLY many people like playing them and the slots aren't hard to fill. Just because you and your friends don't like them doesn't mean the rest of the community doesn't.

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This is a problem here because the healing role is so absurdly homogenised

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I hate this argument.

The healing ROLE is not homogenized. The healer DPS kits are MOSTLY homogenized. The healer healing kits aren't AT ALL homogenized. They all have different tools to confront various situations, and they all feel different to play when you actually need to heal. The issue is the game doesn't require enough healing, so people get stuck with the dps rotation. And they could fix that just by something as simple as one having a 1-2-3 combo like MCH, one having 1-3 DoTs, another having a DoT and spam spell, and another having some kind of combo point generator and spender system. They've made them the same because, for whatever reason, they decided they wanted that.

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I want to put together a group for a raid.

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Good thing you are not playing ALL EIGHT POSITIONS AT ONCE, then, isn't it? Because there ARE people that like those other spots. And that will play those other spots. And that may not like the things YOU like. So we all work together.

Imagine if there was a raid where all you did was heal. Where there was a lot of AOE damage and there a weakened Dragon and the goal was to heal it before the time ran out and its Doom ticked down, killing it and wiping since it couldn't power up to defeat the big bad. Now all those Jobs YOU want to play are USELESS. Shall we design the game that way, to actively exclude you and your preferred playstyle?

No, of course not. That would be absurd.

The game is designed to where everyone just about can play it.

I do agree that they could mix up the healer DPS kits a bit AND/OR make healing matter so they actually have to lean on their GCD heals, breaking up Glarespam. But remove healers? No.

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Originally Posted by Martynek

So. Remove the healing role and improve the defensive toolkits of the remaining jobs to allow them to do without.

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Hard.
No.

Besides, you'd also have to redesign ALL PAST FIGHTS/CONTENT since people are still leveling through the game, new players joining all the time, people clearing old content synced or at level, and so on. And you know the VERY FIRST thing that would happen if you ever removed healers?

...people would be complaining about no healers and asking for them to be added to the game.

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Originally Posted by Silver-Strider

Any dungeon content? Liberal use of Clemency on big hits kept DPS alive, on top of any utility/mitigation I could throw up to supplement was more than adequate.
Normal Raids? Cleared every single Eden Raid with my PLD playing healer after both healers died on more than 1 occasion.
Alliance Raid? Unless a fight has an enrage mechanic, not really a problem there either.

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You're using the ONE Tank with a (rather powerful) spamable heal talking about content with no enrage mechanics (that effectively doesn't need DPSers, either). Not sure that's a good general statement. To be fair, at this point, you can all-tank almost any content in the game. That doesn't mean we should remove DPS as a role.

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The reason why we're not happy playing a healer is because we remember a time when there was more to do as a Healer. We had multiple DoTs to manage and a small DPS rotation between those DoTs, Cleric Stance and our Nuke. We had to actually manage MP in the past. We had to actually use our GCDs for more than just Filler Spam. We needed to shield prey mechanics. We needed to rotate Virus/Disable between Healers to make sure the party didn't die to a massive raid wide. Nothing of that has been retained so we went from having a solid workload that actually felt rewarding to pull off to having our job outsourced to Tanks/DPS roles and having the bare minimum to do.

WE"RE BORED!!! It's that simple.

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A constant problem with modern society is people speaking for themselves claiming that they're speaking for everyone.

"WE" is clearly not talking about all healers, as many of US disagree with you. DoTs aren't challenging or engaging to people like me, for example, they're BORING. And Cleric Stance dancing (I've been playing and healing since 2.3 or so) was tedious as all hells, not fun nor engaging gameplay. The main change to our DPS kit between then and now is we cut out a lot of the tedium and clunk. The only healer that really ever has had an engaging DPS kit was RDM. That's not a typo. :p

Managing MP (for non-SCHs) was "stop casting damage spells and don't use AOE heals for 10-20 seconds". The other things you mention were mostly oGCDs (Virus, for example), which wouldn't be any different to today's gameplay of you spamming Glare and rotating in some filler oGCDs.

And as I said above, the REASON for all this? Because of a healer shortage because it was "too hard" and because of people complaining about it. Incessantly. SCH would still have 4 DoTs today if SCH's all through SB hadn't complained - incessantly - that they had to do more work than WHM and got only the same damage numbers. Because people that say they're "bored" and "just want more buttons to hit" always end up saying "Okay, I hit more buttons than that other guy, so I should be doing more damage" once they have those buttons.

Imagine if we gave SCH its DoT kit back and SGE got something on par with SMN/RDM level DPS rotation. Both would start complaining almost instantly that they aren't outdamaging WHM and they need potency buffs because they're doing "more work" even though the entire change would have been predicated on "we don't want more damage, just some more buttons so we won't be bored".

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Originally Posted by Rolder50

Are you sure about that?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gi05HqdMSs - Ultimate Coil done with 8 tanks

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Tanks which have more mitigation than DPS (e.g. can survive without healing what a DPSer could not) and self-healing to augment their mitigation played by top end players that specifically put their team together, likely know the fight VERY to EXTREMELY well, and were willing to endure wipe after wipe to make it happen if need be...is not exactly comparable to the typical experience of running content in this game by the VAST majority of the playerbase.

Also note the words of the person who posted it: "By far the hardest prog I have ever done."

Besides, if anything, this is an argument that we don't need DPS in the game, isn't it?

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdDxjXMMWgU - E4S (when current) done with 2 tanks and 6 dps

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...of which 5 of said DPS were massive healing Phoenix summoning SMNs. And again, the same above about optimizing, highly skilled players, etc etc applies. How is this representative of the game as a whole or 99% of the playerbase who aren't in the top 0.1-1.0% of the playerbase? It's TECHNICALLY possible, but that's hardly saying it's GENERALLY possible. Oh, and...they picked the two tanks with the highest healing in the game, and one of which that can spot-heal party members. That's not exactly making your argument for you.

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https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1qL4y1J7Mh EX1 (Spoilers EW) done with 2 tanks 6 dps

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Again we see WAR/PLD. This time with the - before the later patch nerfing it - broken RPR and 4x DNCs (Healing Samba). This is requiring yet another insanely niche comp. How this is different from the ones above is that Ex1 only requires a single tank swap and your party having a good danger dorito. It's not that hard of a fight, so it again isn't making your case for you.

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The idea you don't need healers doesn't seem that nonsensical...

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In extremely niche circumstances, with parties explicitly built for it, with high skilled players who have done a piece of content to death and know it inside and out, sure. But again, this same argument could be used to say we can remove DPS from the game.

The idea you don't need healers in general is pretty nonsensical. That you have to find extremely niche cases with extremely high skilled players that are also insanely bored and dedicated to making it work is the exception proving the rule, not disproving it.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

The finest examples of Dunning-Kruger on these forums, all jumping on the OP without even attempting to understand what's being said, is the chef's kiss of this thread.

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I think people understand it just fine.

They simply disagree with it.

The thing is, what is boring to one person is not to another. I find DPSing either mindnumingly boring OR clunky and tedious OR stressful to the point I feel like I'm doing a job that needs a mental health plan. None of that is engaging or interesting to me. I find tanking and healing to be far more fun since it means I'm actually reacting to situations and using my abilities in response to what's happening or anticipation of something, not simply being a dipping bird set on a keyboard pressing the same buttons in the same sequence over and over again.

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Understanding != Agreeing

Moreover, most of us do seem to be saying to do something to spice up a few of of the healers' DPS kits while probably/possibly leaving at one alone (let's face it, WHM) for people that prefer that playstyle as-is right now. But there's a pretty big gulf between "add a few more DPS buttons for healers" and "remove healers from the game, give all Jobs self-healing and defensive CDs, and then go back and rebalance every fight in the game's history to accommodate this new paradigm...because OP and his friends don't like healing."

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Originally Posted by Martynek

<snip>
If an entire role could be seamlessly removed by giving everyone just two more buttons, without redesigning ANY of the game's content, it is redundant and should either be removed or completely rebuilt.

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This is the same thing for Tanks, though. There are games that do this very thing. Every DPS has a movement ability like DNC to dodge telegraphs, there are no tankbusters, little unavoidble damage, and every class has a self-heal button. The only thing the game would require to remove Tanks is to remove cleaves (thus facing doesn't matter anymore) and remove tankbusters (thus Tank-level vitality and defensive CDs are not needed anymore). Alternatively, give every DPS a self-heal and a mitigation CD - you know, the very things you're arguing for? - and then we could remove Tanks.

If an entire role could be seamlessly removed by giving everyone just two more buttons, without redesigning ANY of the game's content, it is redundant and should either be removed or completely rebuilt.

This argument LITERALLY HOLDS FOR TANKING AS WELL AS HEALING.

Your argument then only comes down to "Well, tanking damage rotations feel different than healer ones", not "Tank is needed and Healer is not".

You also focus exclusively on healer DAMAGE ROTATIONS. You know HEALERS, the role that HEALS. You ignore their HEALING kits entirely. Within those damage rotations, healers weave HEALING oGCDs. And, as it turns out, those HEALING oGCDs work differently, are not homogenized, and feel more distinct than the Tank damage rotations and mitigation kits do (Tank mitigation kits are THEIR oGCDs are and MOSTLY samey)

Healers and Tanks are inverses of each other. Tanks have somewhat varied GCD kits but near-identical oGCDs, healers have somewhat varied oGCD kits but near-identical GCDs.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

Yeah it's cool that you can't clear P3-4S or DSR without healers yet but 1 to 6 people are forced to play these roles for casual content or else the queue will never pop, and I sure don't want to spend the next 30m in Aglaia pressing Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil Broil, so where do we go from here?

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I'm REALLY confused why you people think "I don't want to do this, thus no one wants to do this" is an argument.

There are something like 3-6 MILLION other people besides you that play this game. Statistically, 20-30% of them play healers. YOU don't have to press "Broil Broil Broil...", someone else will do that. And, fyi, anyone that does that is a bad healer (you DO have to do things like weave oGCDs or everyone dies. Try any current fight - and I mean normal 8 mans/Aglaia - without a healer casting a single heal. See if your party survives or not. Oh, you can use Second Wind. But nothing else. Good luck.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

- Every single fight this tier has been solo healed in i580 crafted gear. Yes, even P4S.
- P1S and P2S have been cleared with only tanks. Clearing with DPS and Tank would be even easier.

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So you're saying we can and should remove the DPS role? Since, clearly, it isn't needed with PS1 and PS2 being cleared with no DPSers at all, right?

Oh, it's "even easier" with DPSers? Well, it's "even easier" with Healers, too. That isn't the argument. The argument seems to be if it is at all POSSIBLE to clear without healers, we need no healers. So this means we need no DPSers, too, right? Just boost Tank damage and we can remove the DPS role from the game. All DPSers can be told "You're Red Tanks".

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This is the highest level content excluding Ultimate. Anything below that you don't need a healer whatsoever.

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Extremes are lower than Ultimate. You need healers for most of them unless you have a REALLY optimized group comp and a LOT of good and highly geared players. I'm sure it's possible to clear Zod with just SMNs and RDMs + a tank or two, and Hydaelyn would only need 1 tank, but you'd have to have an insane comp to do it. For that matter, all the P_S that have been cleared with solo or no healers had pretty extreme comps. I remember some Eden clears like that which were essentially 1 tank and 7 SMNs or something like that using Phoenix (and PLD healing) as their "healers". Sure, it's possible, if we remove every Job from the game besides PLD and SMN.

Savages are also below Ultimates, and as even you noted, PS1 and PS2 have been cleared with just Tanks, but P3S and P4S? Moreover, things can be cleared with just Tanks because Tanks can take a beating AND have passive regen. DPSers do not. Meaning if you traded one or two of those Tanks for DPSers, the DPSers would be tanking the floor since they wouldn't be surviving and self-healing for enough to survive without healers to heal them.

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Dungeons? Even DRK has cleared all of them with three DPS. EX? They were killed the first week of Endwalker without healers.

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This is a stupid argument. PLD can solo most dungeons in the game. If not ALL dungeons in the game. You don't even need the DPS. There are only a few with really lax "enrage" type mechanics, and some of those can simply be invulned through (in fact, all of them might be). Meaning a party of all Tanks can clear 100% of the content in the game. When are you going to start asking for DPS as a role to be removed and every Job to be made into a Tank?

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With all that said, do I think healers should be removed? No. There is clearly a large enough portion of the playerbase that enjoys the style of gameplay they're supposed fulfill. The issue is the dev team is so afraid little Timmy or Sally might struggle, they continue to design everything around the lowest common denominator. Not your average raider who, while lacking experience, is still a decent play; a green parser if you will. No, it's the person who can barely handle simple mechanics and usually dies once a pull. That's who they're catering content to. And it's why healing suffers so much in this game. If you're average, you're already playing above expectation.

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The reason they're doing that is because there was a healer shortage in SB. Ultimately, that's the reason healers are the way they are today. And that was back when - for those who don't recall - healers DID have more complex DPS kits. It was taxing and overwhelming for people to do while also pushing prog and they'd get a lot of flack in casual content like 4 man dungeons (the most casual thing in the game, just about) if they weren't constantly casting their spam spell and refreshing their DoTs without fail.

The community, effectively, brought this on itself, collectively. The people who complained that casual healers weren't dealing enough damage, the people complaining about folks not using Cleric Stance, the people complaining that SCH had to do more work than WHM in its DPS but didn't get bigger numbers, the people that chewed out healers for daring to heal instead of deal damage, etc.

COLLECTIVELY, those are the reason we have the current healer system we have today.

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Originally Posted by NemuNemu14

I have all healers at 90, and I can confirm that sage does spam one button over and over again, only with the edition of that one skill in between gcds. Other than that, just like every other healer. Sage is also played identical to scholar, gotta love the originality!

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Been playing and healing for nearly 9 years now. WHM and SCH in every expansion to date, picked up SGE as well. SGE doesn't play at all like SCH. It's mind boggling people genuinely believe this. Its kit functions rather differently. The only thing they're at all similar in is their DPS kits, and those aren't even that similar. SGE has Toxicon (when EuDiagnosis shields break) and Plegma whereas SCH has Energy Drain (for dumping excess AF or using with Dissipation for more damage) and Ruin 2. None of those spells are at all the same. You can try to claim that Bio/EuDosis and Broil/Dosis are, but that's saying half their damage kit is different, which...doesn't really make them the same.

Besides which, their healing kits aren't really similar. They do have some similarities - a single target no CD heal, a single target with some kind of buff, an AOE, and a party shield - but how those all but Lustrate/Ixo (I think it's Ixo...SGE spell names, ugh) and Indom are the only ones that work the same. Kura and Sacred Soil work differently, and not merely in the placement. Seraph works differently than Panhamia, and SGE honestly has nothing like Recitation+Adlo+Deploy, but SCH has nothing like Pneuma.

"But those aren't buttons they hit every GCD!", you might say - what do you think you're hitting BETWEEN those GCD buttons? Surely you don't sit on your thumbs for 2.5 seconds after hitting Broil and hit literally nothing else ever, do you?

What do you hit?

Those oGCD heals/mitigations.

Those things that are different from healer to healer and make them very distinct.

You're hitting on average something like 1 of them every other GCD on average, with some double weaves here and there.

Yeah, if you hit literally NOTHING ELSE other than Dia/Glarespam, you might be bored. But do you genuinely never hit Tetara? Benison? Assize? Asylum? Do you never use Solace or Rapture? Are you basically admitting to being a bad forcing your co-healer to carry the team as you let them all die?

Because I've yet to do content where both healers can only hit Dia/Glare (or their equivalent) the entire fight and still clear it. You legitimately DO have to heal. You can do so largely with oGCDs, but if you try to clear an Extreme or Savage without actually pressing anything other than Dia/Glare, I can't see how you wouldn't have a dead party outside of some insanely niche stuff. Eos might be able to solo heal some 4 mans for SCH, but even that isn't a guaranteed thing.

And this is, of course, before we start talking Prog or mistakes. This is just talking about avoidable damage. Don't heal through Zod or Hyd's multi-hit attacks. Don't use a single thing that restores HP, I mean. Watch what happens.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

It IS much more more exciting, not only gives a bit of room for failure but also those 1-2-3 combos have something else attached to them, be it resource generation/different effects that tied into each other/positionals/branching paths, those tools are far more engaging than spam 1 button over 100 times per instance

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It...really isn't.

The thing a LOT of people have a problem with is understanding that what THEY find engaging others often may or do NOT. I mean, even I do it. We all do it. But 1-2-3 isn't particularly more engaging than 1-2-2-2-2-2-1-2-2-2-2.

I do agree that there are oGCDs and stuff that DPSers have to weave and make things more interesting...but this...is true...of healers, too. Indeed, it's how healers do the vast majority of their healing now.

But, this is also one of those reasons I genuinely do support different playstyles. The trick is convincing people jugging 7 DoTs that they should be content doing no more damage than the guy with one DoT and a filler spam spell since this is preventing them being bored, not about damage or performance. If you can do that, then we can have nice things. The reality is, the 7 DoT Job players will complain and many players will swap to the 1 DoT Job.

For all the moaning about ShB and EW RDM, and EW SMN, being "too easy", why is it that so many Ultimate clears have SMNs and/or RDMs in them? Why so many world firsts? Why so many Savage statics?

...because easy is actually a benefit in some cases, like Prog or World First races or Ultimate fights. When you have two things that produce more or less identical outcomes, you pick the easier of the two to do in general. We've seen this a LOT on the abacus and through FFXIV's history.

In summary:

MAN you guys say a lot! XD

Also, I looked at the Abacus and see BLM's with 70+ Fire IV casts (and less than 20 of anything else) for Eric on all the top teams at the moment. While that isn't 130+ that the healers have for their main nuke, unless you guys are also going to suggest BLM is boring and needs to be removed, it would seem "times pressing a button" isn't the best measurement.

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But on the whole:

1) No, we aren't removing healers. That's dumb. And even if it wasn't, you aren't going to convince the Devs to ditch the Trinity or swap "Healing" to "Support". Go play GW2 or something if you want that (even it adopted the Trinity, though)

2) Healers are still needed for quite a bit of content and useful for the content they aren't explicitly necessary for.

3) Yes, high end players trying niche strategies can do so with unorthodox compositions, but this can also remove tanks and DPSers from the party, so that isn't what the game should be based around.

4) Yes, it would be nice for at least some of the healers to have more involved DPS kits, provided some were left simple and also that the players getting said complex kits would go into it knowing they were harder just for the sake of "challenge" and "not being bored" and accepted they would do no more damage or otherwise have higher performance by executing them. Something at least SMN/MCH/RDM/BRD/DNC level wouldn't be out of the question (especially for a Job like SGE that heals by doing damage anyway)

5) Each of us speaks for ourselves and ourselves alone, not some nebulous "WE" or "US" that is secretly the majority of the playerbase. The most Likes I've seen on a post are 30 something. We're playing a game with 3-6 million (somewhere in there) other people. 30 isn't even a statistical blip.

6) I hope you all have a good morning/day/evening/night. :) (Just because we disagree doesn't mean we have to hate each other!)

EDIT: Almost forgot:

7) Healers press more buttons than their DoT and spamnuke. You can't simply ignore all those oGCDs are buttons pressed, too.

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And before you ask/comment with snark: In between ques, because I'm bored, and because I felt like it. :)

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Originally Posted by Renathras

Words that make my post too long for the forum.

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SGE does play like SCH in my opinion though. I use addersgall skills and a ogcd skill, like how i use aetherflow with a fairy skill. I feel SGE is just a bit too similar to SCH because of that. I mained sch in Shadowbringers along with Bard so it was rather easy for me to pick up SGE and heal a tank doing wall to wall no problem. Yes there are a few differences, and SGE even has exclusive skills like some DPS but other than that, it just feels really similar to me. Also for healers in general, I'm always weaving ogcds in my gcds. I'm not good at explaining, but I'm always using assize on cooldown when I can for that extra damage, and other ogcds. I prioritize my ogcd heals over gcds too. And yes, I use my dots too. I don't heal when I don't have to, such as when I know a dps will survive the next mechanics. I didn't mention EX or Savage, I'm just talking regular content, though I've healed extremes, and to me it was really easy. No, I don't make the co-healer do all the work lol, I have no idea where you got that from at this point.

But honestly, all healers aren't actually unique as you make it out to be.. They aren't super complex, and I just want to do other things aside from occasional dot, occasional ogcd dps skill, and the classic spamming one button dps gcd.. I enjoyed Astro's multi-tasking and all the card options in Stormblood. I just really don't want jobs to made incredibly simple. I hate the whole barrier healer and pure/regen healer thing. I want something new!

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Originally Posted by NemuNemu14

<meaningful words, worthy of a reply>

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I guess it mostly comes down to what you consider "similar". To me, it's "how does a thing work and achieve its effect". Otherwise, I could claim every Job in the game is "similar" based on "You have <at least two> buttons that you press for damage, with a specific order doing more damage than another (optimal rotation), you have <at least one> healing/shielding button you press to reduce the likelihood of a wipe, you have <at least one> mitigating/defensive ability button that you push to also reduce the likelihood of a wipe". Distilling it to that level of shadows in a cave "true essence", every Job in the game - indeed, every class in ALMOST ever MMO - are "similar".

So to me, what makes something different/unique must come from how it actually plays out. Yes, WHM has a DoT and a spamnuke and a CD (Assize and also Presence of Mind) and a combo-point-like damage ability (Misery), and yes, there's an optimum ordering of pressing those buttons to do the most damage. That doesn't make WHM play like RDM, which also has several buttons that do damage with an optimal order of pressing them to do more damage, nor like PLD which has several buttons that do damage with an optimal order of pressing them to do more damage.

When I look at healing oGCDs, a lot of them work differently. Even the ones that ARE supposed to be more or less the same (like Aquaveil and the AST version and the SGE version; SCH doesn't EXACTLY have one - its version increases health and healing done, not mitigation). The AST and SGE versions are the opposite of each other, and the SGE one requires a resource spent to use, and the WHM version doesn't have a heal but instead has a higher mitigation amount. SCH, instead, has mitigation in other forms, several of which use its pet.

EDIT:

Lilybell...sucks; but there's no denying it's DIFFERENT than Macrocosmos which is different from Seraph which is different from Panhamia. Lilybell and Panhamia are the only two of those that are similar, and they both work completely distinct from each other. Expedient is entirely unique. Icarus is entirely unique. Presence of Mind is different from Lightspeed. Neutral Sect is amazing compared to Plenary Indulgence, even if they two have a similar mechanic involved.

Even comparing their base GCD heal kits, the only similarity across the board is the basic Cure 1/Physic/Benefic 1/Diagnosis are more or less the same. While AST just has better versions of WHM's other GCDs, WHM then has Cure 3 and Lilies. On the shield side, Adlo is not Cure 2 (and is beastly powerful for not being Cure 2), and is stronger than EuDiagnosis while also being spreadable and having guaranteed crits every 90 seconds. But EuDiagnosis is instant. SGE also has a Medica 1 whereas SCH does not (you can shoehorn one in with Emergency Tactics, but it's a bit different). EuPrognosis can also be used on the move while Succor cannot be.

Eos can be placed in the center of the field, and this can do far more than it might initially seem to make SCH less impacted by movement mechanics or mechanics that require the SCH to be away from the center, while SGE doesn't have that capacity other than pre-use of Panhamia/EuPrognosis. Pepsis and Emergency Tactics, in theory, do similar things, but they also work completely opposite each other, with ET being quick to access (short 20 sec CD) but less outright useful while Pepsis is slightly slower, but can be used if there is any shield at all left for a post-heal.

SCH and SGE play so differently, it's shocking to me how people think they're the same. It took me a good 30 mins to just set up my SGE bars how I like so they'd SOMEWHAT benefit from my SCH muscle memory (I still don't have all the names down, lol) SCH is a preemptive healer, SGE is a control healer. SCH is more reactive if needed (better for Prog) while preferring to set things up in advance, SGE is strong with advance knowledge and a controlled environment but weak when things go off the rails. It's like an inverse WHM.

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The only things they share REALLY are their BASE GCD heal kits (single target heal, stronger single target heal [variations], and AOE heal [variations more distinct]) and their BASE GCD damage kits (DoT + Spam; even their AOEs are different with only SCH and SGE being mostly the same.)

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Now, points of agreement:

I do agree that their BASE GCD KITS are similar (healing) and identical (single target GCD non-CD/conditional damage), but this is honestly a small part of their kits. The vast majority of their kits are distinct.

The problem is: The encounter design doesn't have us using them outside of prog/first few weeks of new content.

I didn't say they are super complex. But they are different and distinct. When I heal on WHM or SGE, I often find myself missing things that SCH has that I've learned to like over the years. And I guess I just don't care that much about damage, so slimmed down DPS kits don't bother me since I derive fight enjoyment from the heals that I use, not the damage spells I cast.

I feel the same way when I Tank. My damage rotation is boring on all the tanks that I've played (GNB, PLD, WAR), it's just something I do in between actually needing to do "tank things" like mitigate, swap, position the boss, etc. It's "busywork", not "fun". That's how I feel about damage dealing in general. It's why I hate playing damage dealers. And why it boggles my mind that people want to turn healers into damage dealers.

Though I do agree that having some options - sometimes I WANT to just spam 1-2-3 mindlessly like everyone else here seems to want to do (when I feel that way, I play SMN or play tank in non-tank swap fights) - isn't a bad thing. When I first heard about Kardia, I was thinking, "Oh, cool. It'll play like RDM or something and each hit will heal, so the "healing" playstyle will be moving Kardia between targets and occasionally using oGCDs, right? Sure, I'll never want to play THAT, but at least people complaining about being bored and wanting to have a dps rotation will have one they can be happy with."

I was a bit surprised when they launched with THE SAME EXACT DoT+spam as the rest of the healers, though.

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Originally Posted by Renathras

It...really isn't.

The thing a LOT of people have a problem with is understanding that what THEY find engaging others often may or do NOT. I mean, even I do it. We all do it. But 1-2-3 isn't particularly more engaging than 1-2-2-2-2-2-1-2-2-2-2.

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It IS, by its nature a 1-2-3 rotation demands more attention than just pressing one button a difference that increases when we add all the side effects the 1-2-3 rotations have (branching paths/resource generation/buffs...) its a more involved gameplay than just pressing 1 all the time

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I do agree that there are oGCDs and stuff that DPSers have to weave and make things more interesting...but this...is true...of healers, too. Indeed, it's how healers do the vast majority of their healing now.

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Which we rarely need and the game barely asks us to properly use it? The log I posted previously was from P4S a last Savage floor and even there the total non dps actions I used werent even 25% of my total rotation, go check any dps or tank and you'll find that while they have fillers in the gcd combo their whole rotation is far more present than the supposed "rotation" we have. There is also a whole another problem from there, if the healing is our rotation then we're the only role that is denied to perform it and be impactful in the majority of the game's content as the healing checks are non existent and the incoming damage is ridiculously low.

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But, this is also one of those reasons I genuinely do support different playstyles. The trick is convincing people jugging 7 DoTs that they should be content doing no more damage than the guy with one DoT and a filler spam spell since this is preventing them being bored, not about damage or performance. If you can do that, then we can have nice things. The reality is, the 7 DoT Job players will complain and many players will swap to the 1 DoT Job.

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Balance is a useless argument when the fun and enagement is not there, first make all the jobs more diverse and fun and then balance them like they did with the dps (disregard difficulty, basically a job should be appealing for what it brings and how fun it is) but in any way shape or form 1 nuke 1 dot should be the peak of the gameplay of a mmo healer.

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For all the moaning about ShB and EW RDM, and EW SMN, being "too easy", why is it that so many Ultimate clears have SMNs and/or RDMs in them? Why so many world firsts? Why so many Savage statics?

...because easy is actually a benefit in some cases, like Prog or World First races or Ultimate fights. When you have two things that produce more or less identical outcomes, you pick the easier of the two to do in general. We've seen this a LOT on the abacus and through FFXIV's history.

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Or... because blm does not give an swift raise which is extremely valuable in prog scenario? Because Blm has been for a long time the job that is the hardest to get into (and despite that hasnt been dumbed down as healers did) and as such has a lower playerbase? Because Rdm has more partywide mitigation and Smn can help with the healing? Because the trio mechanics favours jobs like Smn early on?

In reality a lot of those player simply pick the jobs they like and proof of that is that TEA and P4S world first had a BLM simply because the player liked it and the same goes for many of those Smn and Rdm

Besides that argument of yours could be twisted very easily, if players want easy, then why Sage (which is an easier Sch) hasn't been present in either P4S WF and DSR WF? Why is that Whm hasnt been present there either? Why DSR WF had a Mnk instead of the more simple Rpr?