"Play XIV if(cont)" and"you have a responsibility to" are not statements that coexist

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Originally Posted by strawberrycake

I feel bad for them at this point, I feel like their wasting their money on a game they're obviously not enjoying, but its not my wallet in the end.

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I've been playing and enjoying Final Fantasy XIV since 1.0.

I'm not sure how criticizing metagaming or the idea of "casual elitism" means that I don't like Final Fantasy XIV.

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Originally Posted by EirolOcarrol

I've been playing and enjoying Final Fantasy XIV since 1.0.

I'm not sure how criticizing metagaming or the idea of "casual elitism" means that I don't like Final Fantasy XIV.

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ANd as someone who has raided since coils, as someone who knows plenty of people in the ultimate community, I can tell you theres nothing to challenge. The Meta game only applies to when you;re world first progging and trying to clear week one. No raid group I've been in cared for meta, no cares for meta because they're skill carried them far enough, even in the group of people I know currently progging TEA, as their first Ultimate, they dont care for anything *meta* as you say.

If you, or people you know have ran into people like that, I can assure you plenty of people in the raiding community, Ultimate and Savage, think they're mean and toxic as well. And sorry this post does come across as if you've experienced a very toxic time in FF and have had bad experience after bad experience. If thats not the case I can admit I'm wrong. But if you think people are wrong for expecting a lot of the lazier players in this game to pick up their own slack, I think you;re wrong for seeing them as *meta* gamers, they just dont wanna deal with people who arent trying all the time.

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Originally Posted by strawberrycake

But if you think people are wrong for expecting a lot of the lazier players in this game to pick up their own slack, I think you;re wrong for seeing them as *meta* gamers, they just dont wanna deal with people who arent trying all the time.

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You don't need to be a meta player to get irritated when someone is being lazy or is playing significantly poorly. I consider myself to be a very patient player. I give people the benefit of the doubt if I see someone not playing very well. But that doesn't mean it's not annoying when I encounter someone who really is very bad.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

You don't need to be a meta player to get irritated when someone is being lazy or is playing significantly poorly. I consider myself to be a very patient player. I give people the benefit of the doubt if I see someone not playing very well. But that doesn't mean it's not annoying when I encounter someone who really is very bad.

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I agree, I'm very patient as well and hell, I take being around since the begiining srsly I wanna help when I can, but some people just wear that patience very thin very quickly.

I haven't had anyone complain about my skill level in game. I'm an ok player. I attempt to do my rotation, but I'm no where near meta. My main's a black mage and I've gone through the entire MSQ with her. I can count on one hand how many times I've placed my ley lines.

Was doing a trial roulette and got one of the Stormblood trials, can't remember which one, but it's the one where you have to pick up the bubbles in order to block an attack. Well, I remembered you had to pick up a bubble, but didn't remember which attack to use it on. Died every time she did that mechanic - which was three times.

No one made a single complaint about it. Not even at the end when I asked what kept killing me.

I remember the first time I played through FFX, I stumbled hard on the first Seymour battle. Up until that point, the game had been a more glittery version of Progress Quest, with lots of really cool story in between.

Then you hit a boss fight that requires thought, strategy, planning, and even some mechanics. And you fail. And you fail again. And you rage quit and throw the controller. You ask a room mate for help. You try looking on the Internet for help. You buy a strategy guide from Barnes & Noble because this won't be the first time you struggle.

The offline FF games have their own struggles. Most recently, 7R has a nice optional "easy mode" to it for those who just want to play for the story, but XIV's default is Normal mode, which means you are going to occasionally encounter things in the main progression of the game that are not handed to you on a platter.

Last night in Delubrum Reginae, I saw an AST who just.... never casted anything? Never casted a heal, never casted a damage spell, and never casted a card. I have no idea what they were doing. Dodging, I guess, since they didn't die. But they might as well have not been in the group at all, for all the benefit they provided.

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Originally Posted by strawberrycake

I agree, I'm very patient as well and hell, I take being around since the begiining srsly I wanna help when I can, but some people just wear that patience very thin very quickly.

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I like to call it "infinitely patient, finitely tolerant."

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I like to call it "infinitely patient, finitely tolerant."

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I like that, and yes it describes exactly how I feel about so much in PF lately.

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Originally Posted by Puremallace

Look this nice community everyone praises FF14 stops at the party finder for Savage fights and getting this harmonious static group concept that was developed when this MMO was 7/8 of the way to being dead over 7 years ago is not my idea of fun. There is a good reason FF14 is not known for its raid content and this static stuff, memorizing 12+ min fights and maintaining perfect rotations to keep from getting yelled at is why.

You can paint whatever rosy picture you want but when it comes to Savage raiding that is easily the biggest turn off for most new players who would just go back to WoW if they wanted that much of a toxic experience. I avoid it and I am definitely not alone in that opinion. It is a night and day experience with this MMO that makes a lot of people stop trying.

If the high end communities goal was to drive as many people away from savage then they have succeeded without a doubt. There is a reason Delubrum Savage was dead content within a week and they had to change the rules for how to queue for it and it is not because the content was boring.

The easiest way to fix all of this for Square Enix would be to give HEAVY incentives for FC's to form into more coordinated raiding groups with bigger Savage raids of 16+ people. That alone would kill this static clique stuff you see and force people to organize into groups that see each other more often then once every content patch cycle.

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SO make FC create statics to get rid of Statics, Heck yeah Brother /s

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Originally Posted by Penthea

You don't need to be a meta player to get irritated when someone is being lazy or is playing significantly poorly. I consider myself to be a very patient player. I give people the benefit of the doubt if I see someone not playing very well. But that doesn't mean it's not annoying when I encounter someone who really is very bad.

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Yeah, really often I see the "meta" get blamed when someone is actually just terrible at playing their class.

It's not the "meta" that says a BLM should be using Enochian
It's not the "meta" that says a NIN should be using ninjutsu
It's not the "meta" that says a BRD should sing

It's not the meta pointing out that players playing those classes and not doing those things... are bad at their jobs. That's just basic class mechanics and has nothing to do with the meta.

Here's what the meta IS: "we don't want you in our party because GNB is bad" or "we don't want a SCH healing because AST increases our raid dps by more."

"BLM please cast fire" is not the meta horning in on your playstyle.

Personally I wish FFXIV followed more of a meta slave mentality over this you do not pay my sub one. I really wish at times we could just flash numbers around cause sometimes people need a wake up call for poor play.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

Yeah, really often I see the "meta" get blamed when someone is actually just terrible at playing their class.

It's not the "meta" that says a BLM should be using Enochian
It's not the "meta" that says a NIN should be using ninjutsu
It's not the "meta" that says a BRD should sing

It's not the meta pointing out that players playing those classes and not doing those things... are bad at their jobs. That's just basic class mechanics and has nothing to do with the meta.

Here's what the meta IS: "we don't want you in our party because GNB is bad" or "we don't want a SCH healing because AST increases our raid dps by more."

"BLM please cast fire" is not the meta horning in on your playstyle.

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People who complain about those comments coming from elitist meta players don't know what meta comments are actually like.

This is what a meta elitist comment actually looks like: "lol you're playing <class>? It has the lowest dps in the game, reroll instead of making people work harder for your bad choices"

And elitist meta players would say the above even if the person in question is actually playing their class very well.

It is not elitist to expect people to be able to meet the requirements of normal mode content if they have lost their sprout tag a long time ago. It's called normal mode because it's an attainable degree of performance by almost everyone. It is very rare when someone cannot possibly meet the requirements for normal mode.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Personally I wish FFXIV followed more of a meta slave mentality over this you do not pay my sub one. I really wish at times we could just flash numbers around cause sometimes people need a wake up call for poor play.

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Really, the fact posting a parse is grounds for GM intervention and not people intentionally holding up a run based on "you don't pay my sub" says all you need to know about which groups toxicity is more of an issue.

I swear people throw around "meta" like they were ever in a situation where it came up. As others have said above, telling someone you should be using an ability in your rotation isn't telling them to follow meta. That's just informing them they aren't following basic class design.

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

Really, the fact posting a parse is grounds for GM intervention and not people intentionally holding up a run based on "you don't pay my sub" says all you need to know about which groups toxicity is more of an issue.

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Based on that, the answer is obviously the group that needs GM intervention. That's the one that's considered to be an issue. :p

All semi-joking aside, though...

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Originally Posted by Penthea

It is very rare when someone cannot possibly meet the requirements for normal mode.

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This is my experience as well, which is why I think both sides are overreacting for the most part.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Based on that, the answer is obviously the group that needs GM intervention. That's the one that's considered to be an issue. :p

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Then we are in agreement, then :P

Case still stands that it's absurd to think it is happening enough to warrant the OP opening several threads about it.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Personally I wish FFXIV followed more of a meta slave mentality over this you do not pay my sub one. I really wish at times we could just flash numbers around cause sometimes people need a wake up call for poor play.

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You can flash numbers around. If it's so important for someone to call another out, why not do it anyway?

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

You can flash numbers around. If it's so important to call another out for it, why not do it anyway?

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If I end up running content with pugs I often do call people out if they are what amounts to a sort of waste of space but sometimes it would be nice if I could just show the numbers of a player without worrying about being reported.

It does not happen often but when you get those players they are doing fine in x content. Yet even the most bullheaded player will have a hard time defending a dps doing less damage then a healer or tank on single target fights.

Facts should not be considered toxic. Though here that is sadly the case. Hell often you are called a meta drone if you dare expect people to try cause end of the day the content can be cleared with dead weight.

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Originally Posted by Awha

If I end up running content with pugs I often do call people out if they are what amounts to a sort of waste of space but sometimes it would be nice if I could just show the numbers of a player without worrying about being reported.

It does not happen often but when you get those players they are doing fine in x content. Yet even the most bullheaded player will have a hard time defending a dps doing less damage then a healer or tank on single target fights.

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If you are already calling people out for "if they are what amounts to a sort of waste of space", I'd assume they could already report you, frankly. Wait, you aren't using a third party program to gather said numbers are you?

I'm sorry, but I can say that you can play the game, enjoy it and be a decent player at it. To say they cannot exist in the same sentence is not correct otherwise there would be many players out there, including me, who would not be staying to play the game. There are already Final Fantasy series fans out there, again including me, who are able to enjoy this game. So please try not to generalize. You can state your own experience but I don't think anyone can generalize for the vast majority.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

If you are already calling people out for "if they are what amounts to a sort of waste of space", I'd assume they could already report you, frankly. Wait, you aren't using a third party program to gather said numbers are you?

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I word it nicer in game. Though if I use a third party tool the numbers it records should not be seen as toxic. Linking the numbers then saying x you need to step it up is not toxic though in FFXIV it is seen as toxic due to SE dated view on parsing.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Personally I wish FFXIV followed more of a meta slave mentality over this you do not pay my sub one. I really wish at times we could just flash numbers around cause sometimes people need a wake up call for poor play.

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The problem with this view is that there are amazing players with the numbers to prove it who just aren't considered part of the meta. Should they be excluded?

Also I don't mind if a static expects certain numbers but playing with pugs you have to have a certain level of tolerance. Someone could have just returned from a break and bit off more then they could chew, or maybe they forgot the fight and need a refresher. Or maybe someone never talked to them about their job or showed them the resources. The only time you should be critical towards someone is if they show no intention to get better or don't respect the team by learning. And in both cases, don't be like those streamers who think it's funny to pull up someone else's numbers and laugh about it on stream.

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Originally Posted by Infindox

The problem with this view is that there are amazing players with the numbers to prove it who just aren't considered part of the meta. Should they be excluded?

Also I don't mind if a static expects certain numbers but playing with pugs you have to have a certain level of tolerance. Someone could have just returned from a break and bit off more then they could chew, or maybe they forgot the fight and need a refresher. Or maybe someone never talked to them about their job or showed them the resources. The only time you should be critical towards someone is if they show no intention to get better or don't respect the team by learning. And in both cases, don't be like those streamers who think it's funny to pull up someone else's numbers and laugh about it on stream.

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Meta slave mentally in my post more so about how people are expected to perform a certain way. I doubt even if FFXIV went full meta slave mentally it would be as harsh as it can get in WoW cause generally how jobs play now they more or less play within acceptable performance among one another. If jobs remained as closely balanced and job synergy is not exclusive like it was in the past.

Personally I do not think it should be up the group to spare the feelings of another player because they might be having an off night or thought they were doing fine. That is why I think posting ones numbers should be acceptable since numbers are not toxic. If you have a BLM that is being out damaged by a healer or tank then that player should be informed of such. If we could show numbers even if they have the you do not pay my sub it is much harder to defend a dps that is objectively being out damged by a tank or healer especially when they cannot hide behind you used a parser. Holding players accountable is not toxic, hell I would argue allowing us to show numbers makes it less toxic cause then at the very least we have hard numbers to go based off of. Like in cases when you have a co healed that claims to be healing you could just show them nope sorry.

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Originally Posted by Awha

I word it nicer in game. Though if I use a third party tool the numbers it records should not be seen as toxic. Linking the numbers then saying x you need to step it up is not toxic though in FFXIV it is seen as toxic due to SE dated view on parsing.

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I think the problem is that numbers is meaningless without context, but people abuse that to this day, so I don't think SE's view is that dated when it can still apply to present day players.

For example, a "gray" parse on a certain website still means that you cleared the content. You would be right in saying that player could do better, but that's where the fact ends. The issue of whether the player should do better or needs to do better, especially if they're doing enough to clear the content without dying or causing the party to hit enrage but is getting gray parse due to gearing or conservative means of doing mechanics or some other reason, is a matter of opinion.

Now, you could say you would only use numbers on people who are dying or causing the party to wipe or hit enrage, but if the numbers are readily available, others might not stick to those cases.

And then if we go to the other extreme to follow along the OP's scenario, you can't say there won't be people who would use numbers in context that don't even need them like in normal content.

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Originally Posted by linayar

I think the problem is that numbers is meaningless without context, but people abuse that to this day, so I don't think SE's view is that dated when it can still apply to present day players.

For example, a "gray" parse on a certain website still means that you cleared the content. You would be right in saying that player could do better, but that's where the fact ends. The issue of whether the player should do better or needs to do better, especially if they're doing enough to clear the content without dying or causing the party to hit enrage but is getting gray parse due to gearing or conservative means of doing mechanics or some other reason, is a matter of opinion.

Now, you could say you would only use numbers on people who are dying or causing the party to wipe or hit enrage, but if the numbers are readily available, others might not stick to those cases.

And then if we go to the other extreme to follow along the OP's scenario, you can't say there won't be people who would use numbers in context that don't even need them like in normal content.

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Personally even if the content is cleared if a dps is doing less damage then a tank or a healer claims they are healing those are valid cases to show them the numbers cause sure we cleared but that should not be an excuse for that level of poor play. Do not get me wrong you can clear content in this game carrying many people. I happen to do that myself with friends who have physical or mental limitations that prevent them from preforming. Though that is why we do not take pugs when we do it. Sure they could join PF and prob get through fine but still not cool imo.

Parser is not inherently toxic nor is showing numbers though clearing the content should not be an excuse to poor play. Not saying I expect perfect play but I expect players at max level when it comes to pugs or PF groups unless stated otherwise that everyone playing has a general idea how to play.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Personally even if the content is cleared if a dps is doing less damage then a tank or a healer claims they are healing those are valid cases to show them the numbers cause sure we cleared but that should not be an excuse for that level of poor play. Do not get me wrong you can clear content in this game carrying many people. I happen to do that myself with friends who have physical or mental limitations that prevent them from preforming. Though that is why we do not take pugs when we do it. Sure they could join PF and prob get through fine but still not cool imo.

Parser is not inherently toxic nor is showing numbers though clearing the content should not be an excuse to poor play. Not saying I expect perfect play but I expect players at max level when it comes to pugs or PF groups unless stated otherwise that everyone playing has a general idea how to play.

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If you are doing the mechanics correctly without any death/hitting enrage but with relatively poor DPS compared to the majority of parsers, why is that considered poor play? PVE is supposed to be player vs environment, not a competition between you and another player.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Now, you could say you would only use numbers on people who are dying or causing the party to wipe or hit enrage, but if the numbers are readily available, others might not stick to those cases.

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From my time in WoW I can tell you that there are definitely players out there who do not use parsers to only point out actual problems. Some use them as an excuse to gloat or needlessly put someone down. I have legit seen someone complain at a player because they were doing slightly less dps than they should have been with the gear they had...while in a dungeon that was a faceroll -_- For some people there doesn't even need to be a problem for them to speak up, they just do so to show off their supposed superior knowledge or performance.

Parsers are excellent tools but as the saying goes "this is why we can't have nice things". Enough people do misuse them for SE to not want to make them easily available to players. I don't think we'll ever get an official parser until the community can prove to SE that parser related toxicity would be extremely rare...and well considering some of the things I have seen in these forums and when I have pugged above normal mode, this is not yet the case. I don't think it ever will be to be honest. Tryhards are gonna tryhard.

However the bar is so low in normal mode they're just not required there. You would need a spectacularly bad group to fail normal mode due to dps issues. And OP is talking about toxicity in casual content. Which I'm still confused about because I rarely see that in casual content. Still not sure if they're playing the same game as I am.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

And OP is talking about toxicity in casual content. Which I'm still confused about because I rarely see that in casual content. Still not sure if they're playing the same game as I am.

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As I've said from time to time, people's experiences vary and I have no trouble believing that they could experience it. But I will also say that those extreme experiences are likely in the minority and could be ignored without pronouncing judgment on the game or the community as a whole.

And this goes for both sides, those who met the elitist jerks and those who met the casual jerks. Jerks are jerks regardless.

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Originally Posted by linayar

If you are doing the mechanics correctly without any death and hitting enrage but with relatively poor DPS compared to the majority of parsers, why is that considered poor play? PVE is supposed to be player vs environment, not a competition between you and another player.

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I guess for me I just do not like to carry people unless it was my intent to carry someone through the content. Also in FFXIV the barrier is so low that if a player joins a PF of strangers expecting a carry cause they can do the mechanics and this is acceptable behavior to me that is far more toxic then most the stuff I have seen in WoW. Though generally i know my threshold for what is toxic is a lot higher then most I would say.

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Originally Posted by Awha

I guess for me I just do not like to carry people unless it was my intent to carry someone through the content. Also in FFXIV the barrier is so low that if a player joins a PF of strangers expecting a carry cause they can do the mechanics and this is acceptable behavior to me that is far more toxic then most the stuff I have seen in WoW. Though generally i know my threshold for what is toxic is a lot higher then most I would say.

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Based on this, I'd say it's not higher threshold, but perhaps different understanding, of what is toxic. I would say someone who is doing their part through the mechanic is not being carried at all, so it's not toxic if they think that's enough to try to join a group.

At the end of the day, though, a PF leader has the right choose whom to keep and whom to kick from their party, while a DF party has a vote to kick function as well.

For the most, I do agree with SE's stance on this, though I can also sympathize with the idea that more information can be useful for improving, especially for doing harder contents.

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Originally Posted by linayar

If you are doing the mechanics correctly without any death and hitting enrage but with relatively poor DPS compared to the majority of parsers, why is that considered poor play? PVE is supposed to be player vs environment, not a competition between you and another player.

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If you're hitting enrage then your dps are NOT doing their jobs properly.

Doing the mechanics correctly is good. That's often the hard part of learning a fight. But every party member also has the job of contributing to the boss' death. If you're hitting an enrage timer then your party is not meeting the dps check on the fight. I don't especially care whether I'm "beating" another dps on numbers or not, but if they're severely underperforming then they aren't doing their job. Keep in mind please we're talking about a party that otherwise wins the fight if not for poor dps.

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Originally Posted by Callinon

If you're hitting enrage..

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I said if you're not. Sorry if the sentence structure might've been ambiguous. It should've been without (any death or hitting enrage).

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

Case still stands that it's absurd to think it is happening enough to warrant the OP opening several threads about it.

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IS IT happening that often though?
Seems like no one is having this issue nearly as often as OP claims to be.
I think opening threads about this is their hobby...

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Originally Posted by linayar

If you are doing the mechanics correctly without any death and hitting enrage but with relatively poor DPS compared to the majority of parsers, why is that considered poor play? PVE is supposed to be player vs environment, not a competition between you and another player.

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I'd argue that hitting enrage means you're either not doing the mechanics correctly or playing your class incorrectly. If all the other players in the parse are doing well, and you're the one with poor dps in that situation? That is on you. When I say parse, I also don't mean your damage. I mean the entire metric in the fight. Avoidable damage smacked by, APM, the whole shibbang.


As for the virtue of parsing: There are many factors in a parse that are useful to a fight, and, to be honest, pure damage is only the third or fourth thing I look at. Content below EX has no place in parsing, but you don't really need to look at a chart to see who is performing poorly in those fights as it is both obvious and inconsequential to people getting through the content.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

IS IT happening that often though?
Seems like no one is having this issue nearly as often as OP claims to be.
I think opening threads about this is their hobby...

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I was thinking the exact same thing. Or perhaps OP jumped into a farm party and got asked why they couldn't hang? That seems to be the key root of a lot of these threads :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

I'd argue that hitting enrage...

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Maybe I should edit my post. :cool:

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by LisSquid

As for the virtue of parsing...

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Is not being argued, but will everyone who parse consider all those factors or will there be people who just look at one set of numbers?

And agreed regarding the point about the normal content.

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Originally Posted by linayar

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Maybe I should edit my post. :cool:

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Oh, then I agree completely. Carry on!

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Originally Posted by linayar

will everyone who parse consider all those factors or will there be people who just look at one set of numbers?

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As someone who regularly parses in PF for EX and savage, parses in WoW for Heroic and Mythic, you have to account for more then just numbers, are you dodging, are you doing your rotation right, are you constantly casting, people always confuse parsing with just raw damage, but ACT (FFXIV), Details/Recount/Skada(WoW) Actively shows you a break down of what each person in the fight is doing, it shows you when and where they took uneeded damage and in some cases if they're even doing their rotation right.

Now with FFXIV in mind, and all that in mind, you can't blame someone who doesnt wanna carry dead weight/a lazy player/a newer player all the time for the sake of being nice, or dealing with people getting mad you kicked someone/them dming you,its ofc not something that happens all the time, but those things do happen. Wouldn;t it be more pragmatic to present factual data, showing as to why?

In WoW, ironically enough I've seen more cases of people improving from seeing where and why they're messing up, over feeling attacked and not wanting to play the game (in my experience of course) the parses and data from them have helped their raiding community become huge over the last 2 decades, and as someone actively involved in it, I still see plenty of newer players getting better having this data to help them.

In FF you have the balance, but getting people to even join it is a hassle, and you hear and see terms like "meta" thrown around, but learning a proper opener isn't meta, its literally the only way to play your class since FF doesnt have builds and variable rotations like other MMOs, literally playing any other way is just lost damage, and you;re dragging others down. I dont know about anyone else, but thats toxic outside of like roulettes given how they're scaled, and that depends on what you get in roulettes to because of the scaling on top of that.

In the end, Data isn't toxic, how you present it is, and people are flawed, don't do away with data because people can be toxic, they'll find new ways to be toxic, instead encourage proper interactions and being considerate, but that also requires the Dev Team and Community team being more hands on, and thats a whole other problem for the game.

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Originally Posted by linayar

Based on this, I'd say it's not higher threshold, but perhaps different understanding, of what is toxic. I would say someone who is doing their part through the mechanic is not being carried at all, so it's not toxic if they think that's enough to try to join a group.

At the end of the day, though, a PF leader has the right choose whom to keep and whom to kick from their party, while a DF party has a vote to kick function as well.

For the most, I do agree with SE's stance on this, though I can also sympathize with the idea that more information can be useful for improving, especially for doing harder contents.

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Sure we can remove the player but I do think this general idea that the if a person does the mechanics and does not die while doing less damage as a healer or tank as an example is inexcusable personally. Problem with the kick function people will not wipe the group the remove the player so in essence they are getting carried.

While I am the type or player to bring it up end of the day for some it is useless cause the only metric some follow is we cleared so we all did good. Sure a parse has a plethora of useful data, though the overall damage number is telling in the moment depending on the context of course. I personally just cannot fathom a universe where a healer or tank should be doing more damage then say a BLM or SAM in normal content when it comes to single target. Sure their damage may not be needed but can we honestly say in good faith they did fine cause we cleared?

This is why I feel SE mindset is dated. They are scared how the data will be used which is understandable but barring the data altogether is overkill. It is akin to the feast chat change, sure some chat was toxic but not all. Instead of just allowing people to report the "toxic" behavior. Though I do not even think feast chat was toxic calling someone bad or telling them to no queue again is not inherently toxic imo. Rude to a degree us but as a player in many games i rarely see someone call someone out without reason. It is not up to the community to inform them how to be better. That is on the player a one quick google search is sometimes enough.

To me the real only toxic behavior is results is doxing someone mocking them on steam unless they ask for it by being a royal dbag, making fun of them if they have a limitation be it physical or mental. Generally those are the extremes I consider as toxic calling someone bad or telling them never to queue again stuff like that is not toxic imo rude yes. For me toxic has to go above and beyond simply being rude. Thus my stance how someone going into a group doing tyr bare minimum required of them necessary to clear the content goes above a beyond being rude imo.

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Originally Posted by linayar

I said if you're not. Sorry if the sentence structure might've been ambiguous. It should've been without (any death or hitting enrage).

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Ah yeah I see it now... yeah editing that was definitely a good idea.

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Originally Posted by strawberrycake

In the end, Data isn't toxic, how you present it is

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And that is why we have the situation we have. The data is still there for those who want it, but there is regulation on how you present it against another player.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Sure we can remove the player but I do think this general idea that the if a person does the mechanics and does not die while doing less damage as a healer or tank as an example is inexcusable personally. Problem with the kick function people will not wipe the group the remove the player so in essence they are getting carried.

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I think most people would set that minimum standard at clearing the content. So what's "personally inexcusable" for some might not be the basis that SE would want to use if it goes beyond what would be acceptable.

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While I am the type or player to bring it up end of the day for some it is useless cause the only metric some follow is we cleared so we all did good. Sure a parse has a plethora of useful data, though the overall damage number is telling in the moment depending on the context of course. I personally just cannot fathom a universe where a healer or tank should be doing more damage then say a BLM or SAM in normal content when it comes to single target. Sure their damage may not be needed but can we honestly say in good faith they did fine cause we cleared?

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I think if a damage dealer can output less damage than a healer and a tank and clear the content, then the problem lies with the content and combat system. But if that is the reality, then, in good faith, I would indeed say that they did fine, as in satisfactory.

Quote:

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This is why I feel SE mindset is dated. They are scared how the data will be used which is understandable but barring the data altogether is overkill. It is akin to the feast chat change, sure some chat was toxic but not all. Instead of just allowing people to report the "toxic" behavior. Though I do not even think feast chat was toxic calling someone bad or telling them to no queue again is not inherently toxic imo. Rude to a degree us but as a player in many games i rarely see someone call someone out without reason. It is not up to the community to inform them how to be better. That is on the player a one quick google search is sometimes enough.

To me the real only toxic behavior is results is doxing someone mocking them on steam unless they ask for it by being a royal dbag, making fun of them if they have a limitation be it physical or mental. Generally those are the extremes I consider as toxic calling someone bad or telling them never to queue again stuff like that is not toxic imo rude yes. For me toxic has to go above and beyond simply being rude. Thus my stance how someone going into a group doing tyr bare minimum required of them necessary to clear the content goes above a beyond being rude imo.

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I would say being rude and being toxic are synonymous. You're arguing levels of extremity, but that's all they are, differences of degrees.

Or, put it another way, if you don't deal with people's rude behavior, they will turn toxic sooner or later.

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Originally Posted by linayar

And that is why we have the situation we have. The data is still there for those who want it, but there is regulation on how you present it against another player.

I think most people would set that minimum standard at clearing the content. So what's "personally inexcusable" for some might not be the basis that SE would want to use if it goes beyond what would be acceptable.

I think if a damage dealer can output less damage than a healer and a tank and clear the content, then the problem lies with the content and combat system. But if that is the reality, then, in good faith, I would indeed say that they did fine, as in satisfactory.

I would say being rude and being toxic are synonymous. You're arguing levels of extremity, but that's all they are, differences of degrees.

Or, put it another way, if you don't deal with people's rude behavior, they will turn toxic sooner or later.

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That is the thing I think most people have the standard due to the dated mindset SE has towards parsing. If that is your metric cool I strongly disagree that clearing the content should be the defining metric. Personally the idea of getting carried does rub me the wrong way. Also it has nothing to be with extremes for me being rude is not toxic I know for others it is though in my eyes they are not synonymous to being toxic.

Toxic generally in my view has been watered down as time went on. It appears now for some the mere perception of rudeness is a enough to be seen as toxic. End of the day a factual statement should not be seen as toxic sure the tone itself could be seen as rude but that does not negate what was said or better yet should not negate what was said. In this game if you point out to someone that they have room to improve or mention how low their damage is compared to other players with similar gear and job especially after a clear outside of a static many will say it does not matter cause the content was cleared. Even on the forums like in that talea of the duty finder or in NN you will see people defend poor play by coming up with a bunch of reasons as to why someone may be playing poorly.

This is one aspect I enjoy in other games the reason behind why someone is playing poorly is irrelevant to many, fact remains they were playing like dog shit and success probably would have been still been possible if the person was dead on the floor. Though I agree it is a problem with fight design and part of the reason I rarely pug. I get I have that competitive nature that does not mesh well with the causal player base and I get SE designed normal and
EX to a degree in terms of E
encounters to be cleared by the largest number of possible players.

I do wish they made the game harder across the board I would kill for mythic + style content in FFXIV.

Though overall a rude person is not necessarily a toxic person or will be a toxic person. Telling someone to never queue for content again because they were a legit waste of space in my eyes is the better option instead of saying nothing and letting that person go on to think they did a good job. That is how I got into hardcore raiding back in WoW. I was a player that operated on the mindset I cleared the content so I am good. Until I got called out for being a dog shit player and was told to kill myself or as they put it go die in a cancer fire. The persons comments did hurt but it also got me thinking why did they say such things what could I have done to cause someone to get that upset. So I asked around looked up guides and damn I was playing my class all wrong. This was an eye opener, I went all that time thinking I was playing fine cause I cleared content.

To me being blunt like that is one of the nicer actions a gamer could do. Cause they did not have to say anything and if they had who knows how long I would have kept going on like that being carried by groups wasting the time of others because of my own ignorance.

Guess in the end I think people just need to get some thicker skin if they think being rude is toxic or a degree of toxic.