5.0 Job change wishlist

Feel like this needs a new threads this one turned into two people measuring their epeen.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Like as an example, if you're using cure/cure II, a lot, then Assize and Asylum will pretty much always be up due to SOL II, regardless if you have zero or 3 lilies.

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You do realize that SotL II is not guaranteed to reduce 5 seconds to either Assize or Asylum? It's a 20% chance of occuring when you crit Cure I or Cure II. So, it's a 20% proc on a spell that crits maybe 20%-25% of the time when you stack Crit you're looking at a 5% chance that Cure will reduce the recast time. That means you'd need to cast it about 20 times (50 seconds in GCDs!) to get those 5 seconds back.

Hardly worth while to spam Cure 20 times when those 20 GCDs can be used for much more effective means.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

All the lilies do is show you that you're not overhealing.

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Lilies only generate when you heal someone who isn't at capped HP value. This doesn't mean you're not overhealing with Cure or Cure II. If the target only requires 200 HP heal to top off and you crit them for 10K on Cure you'll generate that one Lily and still create 9,800HP of overhealing.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

But hey, most of the people pushing the regen meta wouldn't know this because they don't play it.

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I knew all this and I still think it's a terrible system. It's inefficient, and propagates inefficient play by focusing on six skills (Cure, Cure II, Tetra, Asylum, Divine Benison, and Assize) and ignores every thing else in the kit.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

To emphasize this, take a look at Bard. What does the gauge actually do? Nothing. It's there to basically tell you when you should be singing something, and alternating between the DoT and the main offensive skills.

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You are absolutely wrong with regards to this. SaitoHikari already addressed it, but as another BRD main, you need to stop speaking about things you have zero idea about.

For your information, the BRD gauge doesn’t even have any visual indicator with regards to our DoTs, so you’re wrong in saying that it tells us when we switch between “DoTs and something else”—DoTs are only displayed on the enemy’s health bar, and it is up to us to visibly watch them. It does, however, contain information about the length of our songs (so as to tell us when we need to transition into a new one), the length of our Straight Shot buff (so as we can know when to refresh it, because this is an extremely high priority buff for BRD), and how much Repertoire we have (which affects our skillset/rotation in 2 out of 3 of the song).

In the case of Wanderer’s Minuet, the gauge shows us our Pitch Perfect stacks—Pitch Perfect is the strongest at 3-stacks (and the strongest skill in our arsenal short of Barraging Empyreal or Refulgent), and the Gauge is crucial in telling us when we can use it. It is also crucial for allowing us to keep track of our PP stacks, because there are cases where you actually do not use 3-stack PPs, but 2-stack PPs (AOE situations where targets are multi-DoT’d and situations where there are multiple critical hit-enhancing rBuffs present—mainly Battle Litany and Chain Strategem). For Mage’s Ballad, it flashes when Bloodletter/Rain of Death reset, indicating that we should immediately weave it between our next two GCDs for more damage and so as to put it on cooldown again for another quick reset. For Army’s Paeon, it shows us our Repertoire up to 4 stacks to inform us of how high our haste buff currently is—the mechanic for Army’s is lackluster, and the gauge isn’t needed too much for Repertoire, but it is needed to tell us when we are to transition, because Army’s is almost always clipped at 10 seconds remaining unless we are in the middle of AOE, or if the boss is going to transition and we will lose out on a lot of Minuet+Raging Strikes.

BRD cannot function in its Stormblood incarnation without its gauge. WHM, on the other hand, can—playing WHM with no lilies is the exact same as playing it while spending your lilies. The only minor difference is now your big oGCDs (Tetra, Asylum, Assize, Divine Benison) have slightly shorter CDs. WHM would function exactly the same without the lily mechanic and its gauge, hence why so many deem it bordering on worthless. I seriously urge you to actually read what both I and SaitoHikari have written, as you are talking about our job like you know it better than we do (especially with your rude response to him about basically ignoring the entirety of his post because he snapped and said that he was tired of you derailing thread after thread to reflect your own personal agenda—something I cannot even blame him for). Saito may even have a better understanding of BRD than I do, as he has had more experienced with the hardcore aspects of it, and where as I have only started to optimize it since the end of Creator.

For the record, I do play WHM. It may not be my main, but I think I have a fairly decent understanding of it, and I know that a lot of people in this thread (the WHM mains) have an even better understanding of it than I do. You are blinded by your skewed perceptions of raiders, parsers, FFLogs and the like, and you are so convinced that you are 100% right about everything you say that it is incredibly astounding. I think you need to come back to earth and accept that maybe, just maybe, the people in this thread are perhaps a bit more experienced than you are even willing to giving them credit for.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

As for Bards themselves... Bards as they are now are in a rather 'perfect' state. We only have three real weaknesses, all of which are minor problems compared to what every other job has to wrestle with design-wise.

1) Our lack of a knockback prevention skill (which MCH also lacks). Perhaps this is something that should never be addressed for obvious reasons - we don't really *need* it unless the party as a whole has failed a mechanic somehow (O5S and the lack of boxes for the Bard/MCH to use to defend themselves against the knockback wind in particular).
2) Army's Paeon being used as filler compared to the other two songs. I imagine this will be addressed come next expansion - perhaps for the return of a Flaming Arrow-type skill to be used when we reach max stacks during Army's Paeon.
3) No way to force Refulgent Arrow during our openers, being purely at the mercy of the RNG. This is probably something that will be addressed come next expansion.

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To also bring this thread back to it’s original intent, I am glad to see a fellow BRD asking for similar QoL improvements that I did previously before this thread turned into the crapshow that it is now.

1.) I would love a knockback prevention; I know that people think it’s “too OP” because BRD/MCH are so mobile, but since every DPS (and all healers and 1 tank) can prevent knockback, it would be nice for BRD/MCH to have a similar skill rather than try to time Repelling Shot. If the mitigation skill was something exclusive to 1 or 2 jobs, I could honestly be fine with BRD/MCH not having a knockback mitigator. But it’s basically every DPS job but these two.
2.) I agree that Army’s could use a little bit more love. I suggested bringing back Flaming Arrow for usage during Army’s for more AOE potential to make Army’s a stronger song, and to give it something more instead of Quick Nock spam until 4 Repertoire...and then Quick Nock spam some more. Mage’s has really strong potential, and Minuet does as well, so I’d love to see Army’s have more to it than a simple Haste buff.
3.) And this change would just be a godsend.

Another request I had was to remove the enmity dumps from Refresh/Tactician and add it to Repelling Shot a la Elusive Jump. That way BRDs don’t have to blow a utility skill to manage opening burst and not have it in the unfortunate event that a DPS dies and needs TP regen (and that there is no Goad/Invigorate). Plus, it would make Repelling Shot more than a situational skill (timed knockback mitigation).

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Hmm I wonder who has a better understanding of White Mage, Yoshi-P and the dev team who plays this way I've pointed out, or 4% of the player base who who raids with parsers then complains about healers being boring and complains that content is boring.

Why on earth would the developers ever listen to the raiders who aren't playing the content correctly in the first place, and use parser tools as a crutch? There is no way in hell that the developers can or even should listen to the people using the parsers, because what the parser users are asking for is for content to be nothing but DPS checks that you can just stand still to maximize dps with because your ego will be bruised if you don't get some high marks on a third party site using a parser that only guesses how HoT's and DoT's work to begin with. The parser also guesses how long combat is, thus very trivial things will have large differences.

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Those 4% of players have a far better understanding than the developers who don't raid nor min/max to such a degree. Hence why good healers are able to perform their role while casting as few heals as possible. Intent matters little when gameplay functionality differs. If we played in the manner the dev team envisions, we could outright remove healers entirely from dungeon content. Trash mobs are so pitifully weak if you do single pulls, you simply don't need a healer, period.

Math and numbers do not lie. In fact, I can cite an example HyoMin and I did a few days ago. We did two Phantom Trains, one where we fully DPS'd and one where neither of us did anything except heal. In the latter, I had several Lilies yet my overall contribution to the group were 90% less than in the run where I dealt damage. Neither group were remotely in danger yet I was completely useless due to how low Normal mode content is tuned. I played "correctly," however the group would have benefited significantly more if I had been replaced by any DPS and they ran with only one healer. Apparently, healer DPS means nothing though...

Parsers don't guess the battle logs. They calculate everything in real time. Perhaps you would understand this if you bothered to hear the opposing side and not present yourself as some authority on a subject you know staggeringly little about.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

"You don't even raid" = "do you even lift" for games. I play the normal raids, I play the 24-player alliance raids. I pass over the high end content because nobody is willing to play it without a parser crutch. To me, players using parsers are rubbish script kiddies who didn't earn their clear. They used inaccurate information they were not supposed to have to clear it, and then complain it's boring and make asinine demands to change the content.

Playing Ridorana Lighthouse was fun the first time because I was guaranteed at least one run where parsers were dead and nobody knows the mechanics, and players real skill shows through. 13 players will still alive, 21 players got the "Didn't Stop, Made it Pop" achievement, 19:27 remaining, finished at 1:48PM on 2018-05-22. The second time I played it a week later? Gee wow, cleared in half the time with only one wipe, on the boss that we didn't wipe on in the first day-one attempt. Parses started showing up at 2018-05-24 9:24 AM. I cleared everything that was new that I could before the parser users started sucking the fun out of everything.

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Content which is all mind numbingly easy. This is why people care about Savage when it comes to job optimization and not the normal mode equivalent. In the latter, you can die twenty times and it have absolutely no impact because half the content is braindead. As noted above, if I did standard single pulls in dungeons, healers have literally no value. Your favorite job is completely worthless because I simply won't take enough damage. I reiterate my aforementioned example of Phantom Train. When I played the Kisai way, focusing on virtually no DPS and spamming Cure II, I contributed a meager 10% compared to my previous run where I properly balanced healing and DPSing. I could have easily AFK'd, made a coffee and let them kill it. It would have changed nothing. I was that useless.

... if I applied this asinine logic to say, computer science. By your standards, my having no idea what I'm doing is a demonstration of skill. And when I learn the flow of things after a week, I've "sucked the fun of it."

Skill is someone gradually improving, which can only be accomplished with visible information. Without parsers, someone can spam Full Thrust combos without ever realizing doing so severely impacts their damage, thus they cannot improve without the information only theorycrafters provide. And how do theorycrafters obtain such valauble datat? Parsers. You are so utterly blinded by your seething hatred for the raid community you have lost any semblance of a rational thought. You accuse raiders of sucking out the fun and spreading toxicity yet your astounding levels of arrogance have completely derailed a thread that was never about parsers. So who is actually causing drama here?

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

I'm sure several other jobs that I have little experience with have gauges that behave similarly.

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I can help add some. Could possibly argue a couple, like BLM, I suppose. Foul isn't *huge* but it's a consistent DPS increase as a reward for maintaining your gauge.

DRK: Delirium (+8s to blood weapon duration, which gives 10% ASPD & -20% TP cost)
PLD: Intervention (!!)
MCH: Overheating as Wildfire comes off CD for massive burst
BLM: Foul (big burst every 30 seconds)
SAM: Hagakure; Kaiten + Higanbana; Guren (massive burst potential)
WAR: Maximising Berserk + Inner Release window (massive burst potential)

To act like most jobs in the game don't have mechanics revolving entirely around the status of their gauges that provide them pretty huge utility or damage windows, like a limit break does, speaks volumes about your knowledge of this game.

WHM does not have a compelling gameplay system to work around such as Aetherflow (decision making on which abilities you can use your stacks on) or Draw (decision making on which cards to save, who to apply them to, when to apply them).

All it has are lilies that appear when you cast one of two GCD heals that you try your best to avoid using as much as possible because of GCD economy.
Which then disappear as soon as you touch any affected oGCD.
Which don't do much of worth when they are consumed.
Which provide no avenue for decision making since you can't hold onto them, unless you hold all affected oGCDS for a minuscule benefit that won't let you use said skill any more often than you otherwise would (because oGCD usage is dictated by the flow of the fight, not when it comes off cooldown).

No additional depth of gameplay. No impact on DPS/HPS output or workflow. They should not exist. WHM have every right to detest them.

Also: Kisai once more shows that she doesn't know what the hell a parser actually is.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I really wish I could just blow the person off as a troll, but the massive walls of text they've been writing suggests he actually believes what he's saying.
It's sad in a way...God forbid "Yoshida Sama" lets lilies generate with regens, they'll probably go insane.

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Given how long they've been at this, it's either the longest troll game ever, or, as Occam's Razor would suggest, this is what they actually think.

I really wish I could just blow the person off as a troll, but the massive walls of text they've been writing suggests he actually believes what he's saying.
It's sad in a way...God forbid "Yoshida Sama" lets lilies generate with regens, they'll probably go insane.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

I really wish I could just blow the person off as a troll, but the massive walls of text they've been writing suggests he actually believes what he's saying.
It's sad in a way...God forbid "Yoshida Sama" lets lilies generate with regens, they'll probably go insane.

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Oh, she actually does. Prior to Stormblood's release, she released a video where she spam healed the tank despite him being at 95% HP. This trend continued throughout the dungeon, alongside multiple wipes due to her complete lack of aoe healing. When legitimately believes HoT being allowed to tick is bad gameplay.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

So you're not even going to read the argument

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When I say "Stopped reading there", it means I stopped reading the post and went on to read others and respond to others who aren't being cranky. People who are routinely throw insults, I skip over in favor of reading people's posts who aren't wasting my time.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Why should anyone even respect your arguments then? You're clearly not here to engage in a discussion in good faith if you're going to open with "Stopped reading there", you're here for the exact reason that I suspected upon entering this thread - to push your agenda on everyone else with no thought of self awareness.

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Do you seriously think anyone ever argues about the healer meta in good faith, if you do, I have a bridge to sell you.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Are you sure you aren't projecting? This sounds like you are talking about yourself as well.

You don't usually throw insults, but you sure know how to work the passive aggressive.

Also before you volunteer to throw me in there too, I am totally fine with admitting I am passive aggressive sometimes.....to people who do it to me first and I have a great memory. I am of the belief that you don't dish out passive aggressiveness if you are afraid of getting some back at you.



I really hope you are not accusing ME of saying you suck, because if you look at my post I did not say that anywhere.

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Two wrongs don't make a right. I generally regard you as one of the better posters on the forum, because you at least try to explain where you are coming from. Other posters are like this:
http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...3/easymode.png

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

I'm going to say this again for devil's advocate purposes.

Bard Wanderer Minuet gauge is composed of two aspects, the song timer and the arrow stacks. How many stacks you have equates to the strength of Pitch Perfect when used, and once used, you have to charge it up again.

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And you will note that if you don't play the DPS the way SE intended it, you do will do rubbish damage, hence the gauge shows you why.

If you play WHM, SCH or AST, none of their meters help you DPS. All WHM's lilies do is show you that you're not overhealing. SCH's Fey Gauge show you that you're actually using aetherflow and not just sitting on it. AST's gauge shows you what the cards do instead of blinding royal-roading things and hoping that was the one that does a party buff instead of personal buff. What does the lily actually do? Nothing. You get them if you aren't overhealing.

I have to keep saying "It's not a limit break gauge" because if you're viewing it as such, then you are missing the entire point of how the game dishes out procs. And as I've said probably a dozen times in the thread already, the Lilies neither hinder nor help you. The DPS gauges only help you. Thus if you want to use the raider healer meta, you're free to ignore the gauge, where as if you ignore the gauges on DPS, you're probably not playing optimally, but you're free to ignore those gauges too.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

And as I've said probably a dozen times in the thread already, the Lilies neither hinder nor help you.

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Then what's the point of them?

Actually, I am going to take issue with you on SCH gauge not helping DPS, because that HoT from Fey Union is AMAZING for DPSing. Does it directly affect my DPS? No, but it gives me windows where I can. I could Adlo-Excog-Fey Union and DPS for a long while before I even have to think about healing, and if I have Aetherflow to spare, I can last even longer.

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And you will note that if you don't play the DPS the way SE intended it, you do will do rubbish damage.

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*laughs in NIN*

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

And you will note that if you don't play the DPS the way SE intended it, you do will do rubbish damage, hence the gauge shows you why.

If you play WHM, SCH or AST, none of their meters help you DPS. All WHM's lilies do is show you that you're not overhealing. SCH's Fey Gauge show you that you're actually using aetherflow and not just sitting on it. AST's gauge shows you what the cards do instead of blinding royal-roading things and hoping that was the one that does a party buff instead of personal buff. What does the lily actually do? Nothing. You get them if you aren't overhealing.

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Ghishlain already pointed out that you can still overheal and achieve lilies. You can heal a tank at 50,000 HP up to 55,000 HP with a 10,000 heal, generate a lily, and still overheal by 5,000. The only overheal it doesn’t show is when the overheal is 100%; that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t still proc at a 50% overheal, or even a 99% overheal.

DPS jobs rely on their gauge to actually function in their Stormblood incarnations. WHM does not. Most jobs could have continued to ignore the gauge if things were left on the status bar (Greased Lightning stacks, Blood the Dragon timer, Aethertrail/Dreadwyrm, to name a few), but aspects of their core performance has been made reliant on the Gauge. WHM has no such issue—you could hide the gauge away in some obscure part of your HUD, cover it up with a sticky note on your screen, and play WHM exactly the same without referring back to it with absolutely no detriment. That makes the gauge (and the lily system since it’s the only thing the gauge is used for) worthless.

There is a huge difference between saying that you can ignore DPS gauges and you can ignore the WHM gauge. Ignoring the DPS gauges actually detrimentally affects your performance; ignoring the WHM gauge does nothing. Nothing changes with the way the job plays, or your performance.

You really, really confuse me, because in one breath you say that there is nothing wrong with the lilies, and then in the next breath, it’s that the lilies are useless. And then you seem to be continuing to defend the purpose of a poorly implemented system. There is something wrong with the lilies if they are absolutely worthless to the core gameplay of the job.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Those 4% of players have a far better understanding than the developers who don't raid nor min/max to such a degree. Hence why good healers are able to perform their role while casting as few heals as possible. Intent matters little when gameplay functionality differs. If we played in the manner the dev team envisions, we could outright remove healers entirely from dungeon content. Trash mobs are so pitifully weak if you do single pulls, you simply don't need a healer, period.

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Did you even read that first sentence. Who knows how the game works? The dev's do. Do the devs QA everything for every possible meta possible ? No. Not unless you want content spaced 2 years apart. If we played like how the dev's intended, casting the HoT's would rip enmity from the tank every single time if not followed up by Lucid Dreaming. Instead the healer may as well not even exist since all the easy content can pretty much be handled by the tank alone.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Math and numbers do not lie. In fact, I can cite an example HyoMin and I did a few days ago. We did two Phantom Trains, one where we fully DPS'd and one where neither of us did anything except heal. In the latter, I had several Lilies yet my overall contribution to the group were 90% less than in the run where I dealt damage. Neither group were remotely in danger yet I was completely useless due to how low Normal mode content is tuned. I played "correctly," however the group would have benefited significantly more if I had been replaced by any DPS and they ran with only one healer. Apparently, healer DPS means nothing though...

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You are also overgeared for the content in normal mode.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Parsers don't guess the battle logs. They calculate everything in real time. Perhaps you would understand this if you bothered to hear the opposing side and not present yourself as some authority on a subject you know staggeringly little about.

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Please go read the developer of the ACT plugin's reddit posts and forum posts, you will find out just how inaccurate the thing is. Pieces of the source code to it are also scattered across various github's. You know what destroys the accuracy of it the most? Having anything else running (Eg youtube, netflix, spotify, etc.) Also one of the overlays is just a full blown web browser overlay, so no wonder it kills low-spec machines.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Content which is all mind numbingly easy. This is why people care about Savage when it comes to job optimization and not the normal mode equivalent. In the latter, you can die twenty times and it have absolutely no impact because half the content is braindead. As noted above, if I did standard single pulls in dungeons, healers have literally no value. Your favorite job is completely worthless because I simply won't take enough damage. I reiterate my aforementioned example of Phantom Train. When I played the Kisai way, focusing on virtually no DPS and spamming Cure II, I contributed a meager 10% compared to my previous run where I properly balanced healing and DPSing. I could have easily AFK'd, made a coffee and let them kill it. It would have changed nothing. I was that useless.

... if I applied this asinine logic to say, computer science. By your standards, my having no idea what I'm doing is a demonstration of skill. And when I learn the flow of things after a week, I've "sucked the fun of it."

Skill is someone gradually improving, which can only be accomplished with visible information. Without parsers, someone can spam Full Thrust combos without ever realizing doing so severely impacts their damage, thus they cannot improve without the information only theorycrafters provide. And how do theorycrafters obtain such valauble datat? Parsers. You are so utterly blinded by your seething hatred for the raid community you have lost any semblance of a rational thought. You accuse raiders of sucking out the fun and spreading toxicity yet your astounding levels of arrogance have completely derailed a thread that was never about parsers. So who is actually causing drama here?

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Without parsers, people would figure out the best rotation and such by trial-and-error. The drama starters are the people who aren't hiding the fact that they are parsing. You're trying to justify data-mining as if it was ever a good thing. I like knowing how things work, but not before I play it. A small portion of the playerbase is responsible for "the MSQ cutscenes" incident, and a small portion of the player base is responsible for the Koike incident. A small portion of players is what ruins things for everyone because they can't just be nice.

Now look at all the snark in this thread. This could have all ended with one post, but because certain forum users must get their burns in, it's now derailed the thread.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Then what's the point of them?

Actually, I am going to take issue with you on SCH gauge not helping DPS, because that HoT from Fey Union is AMAZING for DPSing. Does it directly affect my DPS? No, but it gives me windows where I can. I could Adlo-Excog-Fey Union and DPS for a long while before I even have to think about healing, and if I have Aetherflow to spare, I can last even longer.

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SCH is not my main healer, so I'll not comment about "the right meta" for the Scholar, because I'll only play it for Alliance Raids and MSQ roulette. The problem with the lilies is that people think they are some how losing out on some bonus, that really none of the healers have. It's not a limit break bar.

I posted this a few pages back in an edit:
https://youtu.be/JQSyPv45FrY

This is what the Lilies actually do. If you crit, it shaves 5 seconds off the recast... provided that you've used it. So if you're not using it, Secret of the Lily II, does nothing. What might not be visible (I did a solo run trying to mouse over the 4 abilities to show the cooldown changes) is that Assize CD is at 48 seconds when the third lily comes up, the same cure that did the crit. So while it's on oCD it counts down 13, 12, 11, crit, 5,4,3,2,1. So these are two separate oCD savings. So if you aren't using Asylum and Assize frequently, then a crit from a Cure isn't going to do anything for the cooldown. And if you wait till you have 3 lilies to use just to save 12 seconds on the oCD, that's also silly.

And yes it's a 20% proc, so it's not something you should fish for. If you get a lot of crits, then it's more useful, but that goes into what's really a BiS build and that I don't have an opinion on.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Now look at all the snark in this thread. This could have all ended with one post, but because certain forum users must get their burns in, it's now derailed the thread.

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Can I just point something out? Nowhere in the first comment was Lilies and DPS mentioned. You opened that can of worms. Someone was of the opinion that lilies are useless and should be changed in 5.0, without anything else mentioned, and you took it as a reason to comment on DPSing.

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Originally Posted by Azper

WHM: Scrap and/or rework the Lily system. Give us some more utility abilities.

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Originally Posted by Exiled_Tonberry

Make WHM lilies not utterly useless.

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Those are the only two Lily mentions before you talked about WHM Lilies and DPSing.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Now look at all the snark in this thread. This could have all ended with one post, but because certain forum users must get their burns in, it's now derailed the thread.

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No. You derailed this thread, Kisai. You made it about DPS, when it was a thread talking about changes people would like to see in 5.0. Do not even dare and try to blame the others in this thread. You came in here looking to argue with people. If you did not, then why even bring up the comments you did:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

There's nothing wrong with the lilies. Use the skills with the lower recast when they are ready to fire if you need it.

Players asking for the Lilies to have anything to do with DPS, or the Oath gauge for DPS are completely missing the point of their job. The gauges they added to all the jobs in SB are to help play the job's role, not deliver bigger booms. The job works exactly the same regardless if the gauge is there or not. To emphasize this, take a look at Bard. What does the gauge actually do? Nothing. It's there to basically tell you when you should be singing something, and alternating between the DoT and the main offensive skills. With the WHM, the lilies and confession stacks only generate when you aren't overhealing. If you don't always have three lilies, you are playing the job wrong. With PLD, the Shield Oath increases when you block an attack. When in sword oath, it increases when an auto-attack lands. Basically when you do your job correctly the gauges increase. That's the point. Thus the reward for doing the job correctly is having other related skills be usable more frequently. Don't ever expect this to change. It is not a limit break gauge.

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Your suggestions were added as an almost-afterthought, and were very hard to consider as the primary reason you commented in this thread considering you prefaced with this nonsense.

You don't know what a meta is, how they form, how they evolve. You don't know how parsers work, nor how they are utilised.

Please stop.

Hint: Developer intent means very little when it comes to the formation/evolution of metas.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

the Lilies neither hinder nor help you

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Yes, we know. That is the thing we want changed. The game has tooltips and tutorials devoted specifically to each Job gauge. They appear in the game website's official "Job guides". They have a unique UI element. All of these things suggest that it serves an important function. In fact, for a White Mage, it serves no practical function, in contrast to basically every other Job gauge. I'm glad we're all on the same page now.

But really, you deserve an Olympic Gold Medal in gymnastics for this, "I've said they don't help you all along," line given what you actually said in your opening salvo:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The gauges they added to all the jobs in SB are to help play the job's role

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Emphasis mine. HTH.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Now look at all the snark in this thread. This could have all ended with one post, but because certain forum users must get their burns in, it's now derailed the thread.

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You've really lost the plot, here. You're the one who came out guns-blazing, telling everyone they're playing the Job incorrectly by virtue of using its abilities, whilst being directly hostile to another person's recommendation which was directly pertinent to the thread's topic. I tried to respectfully lay out the case against the Lily gauge, which you ignored as you proceeded to ignite a flame war by acting like it was everyone else who was picking a fight. So the lesson here is: don't make a blanket claim that everyone else is stupid and incompetent and expect people to just accept it.

You intentionally provoked this, and I'm more convinced than ever that you must be trolling. You clearly have some grudge against "elitists" and "raiders" and whatever other faceless classes of posters you believe have kicked your puppy. You owe OP an apology.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Saito may even have a better understanding of BRD than I do, as he has had more experienced with the hardcore aspects of it, and where as I have only started to optimize it since the end of Creator.

For the record, I do play WHM. It may not be my main, but I think I have a fairly decent understanding of it, and I know that a lot of people in this thread (the WHM mains) have an even better understanding of it than I do. You are blinded by your skewed perceptions of raiders, parsers, FFLogs and the like, and you are so convinced that you are 100% right about everything you say that it is incredibly astounding. I think you need to come back to earth and accept that maybe, just maybe, the people in this thread are perhaps a bit more experienced than you are even willing to giving them credit for.

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To the bolded: Probably not. It seems we both began raiding at roughly the same time, and you cleared O8S earlier than I did.

I mained WHM for a time before switching to BRD too. I might understand the cure spam mentality if we were back in ARR, but HW gave WHM so many instant cast heals (and SB -SHORTENED- the cooldowns on most of them across the board - remember when Assize used to be 90 seconds? Or Benediction used to be 300 seconds? Pepperidge Farm remembers.) that expecting WHMs to spam cure to utilize the lily gauge to its fullest isn't feasible from a design standpoint. One could even go back to the SB class showcase, revealed during the live letter before SB's release where everyone finally saw their new skills and gauges for the first time. For every other job, it was obvious what the gauges did and how to build up charges/utilize them (sans Bard, except Bard was completely overhauled and -nobody- knew/was allowed to talk about how SB Bard worked until the information embargo was lifted two weeks later).

What happened during the WHM showcase in that trailer? Lilies proccing in not obvious ways, showed off Rescue which every healer has, and not even showing the lilies being consumed. It confused the hell out of most people that watched it, resulting in guesses that... Actually weren't that far off the mark in terms of overall disappointment. The hysteria that followed was a product of WHMs essentially being entirely kicked out of the meta during the Creator raid tier, when AST Balance was buffed to extremely broken levels, their Noct stance did not provide anywhere near enough shielding for WHM/AST combo to compete against SCH/AST combo, and SCH's shielding was incredibly broken in a raid tier where there was barely any raid-wide AoE. WHMs didn't die out upon SB release like many predicted, although that wasn't because of the lily gauge being better than people thought, it was because raid fights became longer, the frequency of AoEs increased (about doubled or tripled - O4S in particular was the first fight to introduce the 'top off everyone's HP or you get a highly debilitating debuff' concept to the game), and Scholar had been nerfed into the ground (the Adlo MP costs at the start of Stormblood meant that pre-shielding before pull was VERY costly) until the developers buffed them back up again via potency increases, slashing their MP costs, and reducing summon cast times a patch later.

And the above is a lesson on how context matters.

Again, it feels like a placeholder rather than a proper system, compared to the complexity and responsiveness of the meters for every other job. It doesn't help that the WHM meter is largely RNG-based. (BRD meter is largely RNG-based too, but it's tied to a key gameplay mechanic that we already had prior to Stormblood, and Bards gain a lot out of proper usage of the meter - basically turning us into machine guns at high skill level with high crit gear. And even BRDs still have a way to force procs. Why do WHMs have to wrestle with the RNG for their meter when every other job doesn't have to?)

As for the BRD (and slightly related to MCH) stuff we spoke of earlier, moving our enmity dumps from Refresh/Tactician to Repelling Shot/Blank sounds like a good idea. Tying our enmity dumps to party-wide resource regeneration is a questionable design decision, the same way that tying the only healer enmity dump to their primary MP regeneration skill is. Lord knows I stopped using Repelling Shot once we lost the bowmage gameplay and it no longer inflicted any damage. As it is now, it kind of only exists to look fancy at the risk of clipping into our GCDs, or if you need to re-position and manually moving isn't fast enough. Or accidentally repelling off of platforms.

Other things:
- I see us getting some sort of trait to force proc Straighter Shot for Refulgent Arrow use. Maybe an upgraded Barrage trait.
- Oh, maybe Army's Paeon could be potentially overhauled in that once you hit max stacks, it automatically resets the cooldown on Barrage? Combined with the above, it'd be absurdly broken, though. I like the Flaming Arrow idea better, because I really, REALLY miss Flaming Arrow, and with Flaming Arrow, Army's Paeon would retain the current feel of a song that exists between Ballad's AoE damage and Minuet's single target damage.

As for everything else about the holy train wreck of an argument exploding all around us: Everyone else already said what I wanted to say. *shrugs*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Did you even read that first sentence. Who knows how the game works? The dev's do. Do the devs QA everything for every possible meta possible ? No. Not unless you want content spaced 2 years apart. If we played like how the dev's intended, casting the HoT's would rip enmity from the tank every single time if not followed up by Lucid Dreaming. Instead the healer may as well not even exist since all the easy content can pretty much be handled by the tank alone.

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Did you? If the developers knew everything, why did they twice re-balance Ninja after outright citing the players found a superior rotation? Likewise, why can I heal more efficiently while simultaneously contributing 3,000 DPS when the intended way to play healers is to scarcely DPS at all? And if we played as the dev's intended, tanks would never leave Tank stance, thus there isn't a chance in hell HoT ripping aggro. Warrior generates so much enmity, you switch to Deliverance on your second or third GCD.

(Unchained) -> Tomahawk (Equilibrium) -> Heavy Swing (Deliverance)

With a Provoke+Shirk, that will hold off everyone, assuming they use their own aggro utility properly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

You are also overgeared for the content in normal mode.

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I ran all of Sigma normal in i340. It remained a complete joke that never required two healers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Please go read the developer of the ACT plugin's reddit posts and forum posts, you will find out just how inaccurate the thing is. Pieces of the source code to it are also scattered across various github's. You know what destroys the accuracy of it the most? Having anything else running (Eg youtube, netflix, spotify, etc.) Also one of the overlays is just a full blown web browser overlay, so no wonder it kills low-spec machines.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...quc/?context=1

This post says otherwise. And you are flat out wrong regarding ACT's impact with things running in the background. I frequently have thirty tabs open and/or have Twitch playing while I run content. The numbers have never changed. Regardless, logs are adjusted accordingly when uploaded to account for any discrepancies. Of course, all knowing Kisai understands parsers better than the actual developers and raiders.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Without parsers, people would figure out the best rotation and such by trial-and-error. The drama starters are the people who aren't hiding the fact that they are parsing. You're trying to justify data-mining as if it was ever a good thing. I like knowing how things work, but not before I play it. A small portion of the playerbase is responsible for "the MSQ cutscenes" incident, and a small portion of the player base is responsible for the Koike incident. A small portion of players is what ruins things for everyone because they can't just be nice.

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And how do they know? Trial and error requires an objective error conclusion, which cannot be reached without data to rule out that valuable. This is why you see Monks who Tornado Kick on cooldown, Warriors who prioritize Fell Cleave over Upheaval when the latter is always better. Or they don't know pressing Inner Release too early will deny you five Fell Cleaves. Data-mining necessitates digging through files that aren't readily available. ACT uses the battle log itself and calculates what is relayed there. The Koike stemmed from sexual harassment and verbal abuse. Blaming parsers for that not only shows your immense bias but minimizes the vile behavior of people who did far worse than say "your numbers suck."

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Now look at all the snark in this thread. This could have all ended with one post, but because certain forum users must get their burns in, it's now derailed the thread.

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Nice try, honey. No, you came into a thread about brought up parsers entirely unprovoked. Don't attempt to shift the blame onto everyone else. You derailed this thread and you alone.

Lilies are bad but I don't know if I want SE to "try again", just get rid of them and call it a win because some other system they make to replace them has an equal chance of being as worthless or even damaging to WHM.

Also I'd like them to get rid of role actions. Just give every job access to all of their actions. The only good thing about the role actions system is how it works with level-sync, so instead I would make it a system where you just pick 5 of any of your skills and that lets you have them while synced at any level.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

Lilies are bad but I don't know if I want SE to "try again", just get rid of them and call it a win because some other system they make to replace them has an equal chance of being as worthless or even damaging to WHM.

Also I'd like them to get rid of role actions. Just give every job access to all of their actions. The only good thing about the role actions system is how it works with level-sync, so instead I would make it a system where you just pick 5 of any of your skills and that lets you have them while synced at any level.

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Ooh, so I can actually go into level 50 content without missing a literal third of my song rotation? I like.

( It's not going to happen. ;_; )

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Those are the only two Lily mentions before you talked about WHM Lilies and DPSing.

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The second person was the one who kicked the hornet's nest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...quc/?context=1

This post says otherwise. And you are flat out wrong regarding ACT's impact with things running in the background. I frequently have thirty tabs open and/or have Twitch playing while I run content. The numbers have never changed. Regardless, logs are adjusted accordingly when uploaded to account for any discrepancies. Of course, all knowing Kisai understands parsers better than the actual developers and raiders.

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Because it doesn't read the battle log, at all. You know that or you wouldn't be trying to keep portraying it as something harmless.

Quote:

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Fixed a problem with network packet parsing that delayed some procs from being logged by up to two seconds, and missed a handful of boss buffs/debuffs.

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ACT's FFXIV plugin reads the game client memory and reads network packets. ALL packets. The author even made a point of saying that streaming video will make the plugin inaccurate because the plugin can't tell the games data from anything else you're doing. The high performance pcap mode only exists after March 27th of this year.

Quote:

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Added a BETA option for high-performance network filtering, where the game's server IP is used by the socket/winpcap layer to filter traffic before it even is received by the plugin. This has been tested against hundreds of mbps of traffic with no data loss. It is left as BETA for now, but will likely become the default in a few weeks.

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Oh and let's not forget that the plugin developer is actually helping data miners try discover ways of making it more accurate.

Quote:

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Added a new packet type to the log file - 33 - which may help with detecting combat begin / end notifications
Added new columns "DoTAmtLowByte", "DoTCritLowByte" for theorycrafters on simulated DoT ticks and also on DoT debuffs when they land

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Because it doesn't read the battle log, at all. You know that or you wouldn't be trying to keep portraying it as something harmless.

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Except it does. If you utilize triggers but turn off NPC announcement text chat or battle log data, they stop working. Regardless, it is entirely harmless. You have yet to prove otherwise beyond your hilariously bias opinion. Summoner DoTs had an issue when Stormblood launched, but ACT hasn't been inaccurate.

Quote:

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ACT's FFXIV plugin reads the game client memory and reads network packets. ALL packets. The author even made a point of saying that streaming video will make the plugin inaccurate because the plugin can't tell the games data from anything else you're doing. The high performance pcap mode only exists after March 27th of this year.

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Citation needed.

Please link this video because I have personally ran Twitch without it causing any issues. How do I know? My static mates have the precise numbers I do, or very minor variation which FFlogs accounts for.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The second person was the one who kicked the hornet's nest.

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Right. A simple one-liner with zero context besides 'the lily system sucks' started all of this.

Step back and admit that you really jumped the gun with your following response to that one sentence, because people can have problems with the lily system for reasons other than just a raid viability standpoint. There are people that exist that actually care about how something is designed relative to everything else that operates in a similar manner to it, more than how viable it actually is. Some people, like I, have an interest in future-proofing design precisely so we can avoid these kinds of arguments in the first place. Even so, the lily system failed on both counts.

Context matters. I came from another game that constantly failed at designing a balanced system, either in regards to the meta or how people actually played specific classes (for reference, in said previous game, everything suddenly resisted every crowd control effect under the sun about halfway through the game, and the developers addressed that by making said crowd control effects confer a damage up debuff against enemies immune to the original effect, a very very poor solution in a game that had to juggle the existence of, I think 20 classes now?). At least people here in FF14 are vocal about it precisely because hope in the developers to address the issues still exists. My previous game lost that years ago, and ultimately exists in a zombie state for it.

I don't understand why people argue over something even here. This is not a post for savage or whatever. There are casual players in the game and being a hardcore player doesn't make you better than those people. It is a game! People are entitled to have different opinions, even those damn casuals! It is a thread for ''everyone'' who wishes things to be changed in 5.0. Please stop arguing about stuff. (Tbh i didn't read most of them but they cloud actual suggestion posts). Talking about parsers and stuff, i mean why here?..

Anyway, my opinions are:
for BLM: Extend Enochian timer, because it is easy to mess up if an aoe comes at the wrong time. Like double it to 26 sec and Foul ticks every 13 seconds and stacks at the 2nd one for bigger potency. Also we can use a new fire V spell, that replaces either fire I with slightly higher potency (just for aesthetic purposes, new spell wouldn't hurt). And make procs ogcd so we can use thunder procs and still cast fire IV in rotation and wouldn't have to think if we should use thunder or not.

for SMN: I am not sure if they would add new egis, because if we look at the egis we have right now, titan is %99 of the time useless. If they add a new egi, i am not sure how they will balance things around it. Instead of new egis i would want my current egis and stuff useable. Pet usability must be improved. They did with sch this patch and i have no idea why they excluded smns. Pets are so clunky and it needs to change. Also, titan needs to be looked at. And maybe let aetherflow stacks remain even if we die so it wouldn't be so punishing.

for SCH: Rework Selene. She is utterly useless right now except for a few things. Like SMN, there isn't one fairy in the game so they should encourage people to use both of them. Just delete dissipation or rework it, i almost never used it (i know there are some who says it is useful but i don't see how).

Role Actions: Make protect, Esuna and lucid dreaming a kit for healers and remove them from role actions (or just make protect a permanent buff).

That's my opinions. Personally i don't think there is major changes needed for the jobs i mentioned above but some small QoL changes here and there could make gaming more enjoyable. Thanks for reading!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PerrinTaveren

I don't understand why people argue over something even here. This is not a post for savage or whatever. There are casual players in the game and being a hardcore player doesn't make you better than those people. It is a game! People are entitled to have different opinions, even those damn casuals! It is a thread for ''everyone'' who wishes things to be changed in 5.0. Please stop arguing about stuff. (Tbh i didn't read most of them but they cloud actual suggestion posts). Talking about parsers and stuff, i mean why here?..

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Just as a note, the person who complained about parsers is on the casual side, from what I can tell. I do agree that Selene needs something. Granted, there was a time where Eos was the one never used, but things change. It'd be nice if they just filled different niches, but do it better. Having Eos being the healing and Selene being a buff/debuff one would be fine if Selene's buffs weren't that great and her sole debuff weren't absolutely useless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

The second person was the one who kicked the hornet's nest.

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Also, I'm sorry, you don't get that. The thread is "Things we want changed for jobs in 5.0" Saying "Change useless Lilies" is legitimate, eve if your opinion doesn't match with theirs.

I guess this would be for all classes, but a system in which the game actually shows and teaches you a rotation to do for every class would be nice. The only thing I wish was changed was monk, like the riddles. Take out wind and earth and actually speed up fire. Tornado kick being useful would help too and not have it steal all your stacks. Like you are always in fire like it's just there. No clicking. And turning TK into an useful normal OGCD. That and giving use a range attack like an actual hadoken or something. Something we can throw across the screen when we're out of range.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ko_

I guess this would be for all classes, but a system in which the game actually shows and teaches you a rotation to do for every class would be nice.

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This is actually why I think there is such potential in the 'role play' solo duties, should the concept be developed further.

Let players take control of a character that already has all of the most critical skills that a job can have, and show them practical usage of each skill. It would serve a double purpose - let players see for themselves what kind of gameplay to expect from a specific job at higher levels (and ignite interest in leveling them), and also inform players of other classes about what the job in question can offer for a party.

Of course, players would also be more invested in the story of the character if they get to take direct control of them for a time. You can already see this with the reception to our first role play solo duty.

(One could argue that Palace of the Dead and later Heaven-on-High serves this purpose already, but it's gated behind a dungeon crawl that may not be to the liking of many players, and those have their own series of balance issues regarding how each job performs in there - particularly in regards to RDMs VS everyone else.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Except it does. If you utilize triggers but turn off NPC announcement text chat or battle log data, they stop working. Regardless, it is entirely harmless. You have yet to prove otherwise beyond your hilariously bias opinion. Summoner DoTs had an issue when Stormblood launched, but ACT hasn't been inaccurate.



Citation needed.

Please link this video because I have personally ran Twitch without it causing any issues. How do I know? My static mates have the precise numbers I do, or very minor variation which FFlogs accounts for.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ne_low_anyone/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Also, I'm sorry, you don't get that. The thread is "Things we want changed for jobs in 5.0" Saying "Change useless Lilies" is legitimate, eve if your opinion doesn't match with theirs.

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And that is why I initially said there was nothing wrong with it. Do you really want a gauge that you don't get to use Assize, Asylum, Tetra and Divine Benison at all unless you use cure? Because that's what we're going to get if you ask them to make it into a limit break button.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ne_low_anyone/

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... did you conveniently ignore Bokchoy's "Solution" section? One click and he no longer had any issues. Further down, he even cites this only became an issue recently. You proudly claimed ACT was widely inaccurate yet this link demonstrates precisely the opposite, albeit once a solution to the problem caused by an update was found. I'll you've shown is ACT can mess up but that is true of virtually every program.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

And that is why I initially said there was nothing wrong with it. Do you really want a gauge that you don't get to use Assize, Asylum, Tetra and Divine Benison at all unless you use cure? Because that's what we're going to get if you ask them to make it into a limit break button.

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No no no, you said that it was fine, then complained people wanted it for DPS, got information on Bard's gauge wrong, still haven't explained why you want to have 3 stacks at all times on a WHM, and commented that a TANK gets a boost while DPSing in Sword Oath, which kinda goes against your comments about "Playing jobs a certain way"

Honestly, if you had left it at the first part of your first post in regards to Lilies, and skipped to your suggestions, most of this conversation probably either wouldn't have happened, or you would have a leg to stand on in regards to saying others are picking the fights.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Do you really want a gauge that you don't get to use Assize, Asylum, Tetra and Divine Benison at all unless you use cure? Because that's what we're going to get if you ask them to make it into a limit break button.

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This is ridiculous conjecture and you know it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

No no no, you said that it was fine, then complained people wanted it for DPS, got information on Bard's gauge wrong, still haven't explained why you want to have 3 stacks at all times on a WHM, and commented that a TANK gets a boost while DPSing in Sword Oath, which kinda goes against your comments about "Playing jobs a certain way"

Honestly, if you had left it at the first part of your first post in regards to Lilies, and skipped to your suggestions, most of this conversation probably either wouldn't have happened, or you would have a leg to stand on in regards to saying others are picking the fights.

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If you don't get it, that's fine. I'm just pointing out that SE clearly wants healing to be done a certain way, and asking for changes will make them push it further, because they will never understand the NA raid meta. And quite frankly I don't want them to. It's fine just where it is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

... did you conveniently ignore Bokchoy's "Solution" section? One click and he no longer had any issues. Further down, he even cites this only became an issue recently. You proudly claimed ACT was widely inaccurate yet this link demonstrates precisely the opposite, albeit once a solution to the problem caused by an update was found. I'll you've shown is ACT can mess up but that is true of virtually every program.

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And I told you before that this is a feature that was only introduced 2 months ago. How many script kiddies are reading reddit hmm? How many kiddies were using it for the previous 3 years? I know far more about how that parser works than I'm willing to let on, and not willing to test SE's ToS patience with. Players talking about their DPS from that tool are simply inaccurate if not entirely wrong, and using against other players is doubly wrong, which is why it's dangerous in the hands of kiddies that shouldn't have it in the first place.

Ah yes, that wonderful squadron AI that banes in single target and doesn't even have full kits players do.
That's totally how the devs see their game needs to be played.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

And that is why I initially said there was nothing wrong with it. Do you really want a gauge that you don't get to use Assize, Asylum, Tetra and Divine Benison at all unless you use cure? Because that's what we're going to get if you ask them to make it into a limit break button.

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Would you elabotate? I don't understand what you mean by not getting to use those skills or "make it into a limit break button".

The only skill that's ever been locked behind a lily was DB and SE fixed that up when people en masse complained they needed a lily which they almost never had.

A friend of mine healed Swallow's Compass the other day. I was on RDM. He never got a lily, not one. Tank was doing normal double pulls but stayed in Shield Oath. We all performed mechanics and killed things and never needed a cure/cure II. That's why the lily gague is useless to people - it literally saw no use. If you can show me another job performing well with their gague turned off I would be surprised.

Quote:

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SE clearly wants healing to be done a certain way

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Content design says otherwise and hasn't been pushed much towards more heal-centric encounters. In fact, healing requirements have generally become lower over time as available healing power has increased.
Healer class design also says otherwise, and has actually been pushed towards a more DPS-centric combat system.

But sure, they totally intend you to play this magical One True Way! The great prophet Yoshi-P said so and AI CNJs play that way, so it must be true!

Either the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, or things are not as cut and dry as they first appear.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If you don't get it, that's fine. I'm just pointing out that SE clearly wants healing to be done a certain way, and asking for changes will make them push it further, because they will never understand the NA raid meta. And quite frankly I don't want them to. It's fine just where it is.

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I-I have to ask, is the Raid meta for Japan that different that your comment makes sense? There is no way on earth they aren't aware of what people are doing. Heck, I'm one of the people who find that if someone isn't comfortable DPSing as a healer they shouldn't have to, and even I realize that healer DPS is a thing and, unless raid damage gets a lot more serious, will always be a thing.

Still waiting on the keeping 3 lilies part, too. Don't say "If you don't understand, it's fine" because I am *asking* you to clarify on that part.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MoroMurasaki

Would you elabotate? I don't understand what you mean by not getting to use those skills or "make it into a limit break button".

The only skill that's ever been locked behind a lily was DB and SE fixed that up when people en masse complained they needed a lily which they almost never had.

A friend of mine healed Swallow's Compass the other day. I was on RDM. He never got a lily, not one. Tank was doing normal double pulls but stayed in Shield Oath. We all performed mechanics and killed things and never needed a cure/cure II. That's why the lily gague is useless to people - it literally saw no use. If you can show me another job performing well with their gague turned off I would be surprised.

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When DB was locked behind the Lily system, that made DB unusable, because you are not going to save a lily "just to use DB". When they got rid of needing Cleric Stance, I was estatic because that mechanic was utterly trash and made users make more mistakes because of the stupid meta. When they brought this in, that was basically "well I'm never going to end up using it because Assize and Asylum is far more useful, and the only way to save a lily would be by curing the a target before applying DB otherwise. As I've said, careful what you ask for. I'll take "cooldown reduction" over "locked down". WHM has RNG proc's because otherwise it would be too powerful and would require the entire healing kit potency to be cut in half.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

I-I have to ask, is the Raid meta for Japan that different that your comment makes sense? There is no way on earth they aren't aware of what people are doing. Heck, I'm one of the people who find that if someone isn't comfortable DPSing as a healer they shouldn't have to, and even I realize that healer DPS is a thing and, unless raid damage gets a lot more serious, will always be a thing.

Still waiting on the keeping 3 lilies part, too. Don't say "If you don't understand, it's fine" because I am *asking* you to clarify on that part.

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I don't know what the Japanese raid meta is, but seeing as they have a higher clear rate, something is less of an obstacle over there, than it is here. If you're healing like the devs/Yoshi-P/SE intended, then unless the content is so easy as to not requiring healing at all, there is no reason to not be able to have 3 lilies up all the time. If you don't want to play it that way, then you aren't any worse off.

Start asking for changes to the lilies, and they will either lock things behind the lilies or they will gut the potency of other things. Nobody wants that.

Remember from 4.05:

Quote:

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Plenary Indulgence
Party members will no longer be granted a Confession when HP is restored via Cure and Cure II. They will instead be granted a Confession when HP is restored via Medica, Medica II, or Cure III.

The chance of granting party members a Confession has been increased from 20% to 100%.

The duration of the Confession has been reduced from 30 to 10 seconds.

Healing potency based on the number of stacks of Confession has been reduced from 400 for one stack, 500 for two stacks, and 600 for three stacks to 150 for one stack, 300 for two stacks, and 450 for three stacks.

Recast time increased from 15 to 60 seconds.

Confession stacks will now also be granted to the player casting Medica, Medica II, or Cure III.

Secret of the Lily

Chance healing a party member via Cure will add a Lily to the Healing Gauge increased from 50% to 100%.

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So we lost most of the usability of the Confession stacks, to a point where it's basically unable to be used more than once in any fight, and the potency got nerfed. Did I like the RNG mechanic before? No. But it's not any more useful now, it's like throwing half a cure unless the party has taken so much damage that you can justify casting medica/medica ii/cure iii 3 consecutive times. Assize has the same healing potency as Medica, but it does not grant a confession stack or lily. The lilies don't actually do anything in the first place that justifies fishing for the lily, which is why changing that does nothing in the end. All the lilies do is change the recast time, it doesn't enable Asylum or Assize. And if you are not always using Asylum and Assize you don't end up taking advantage of Secret of the Lily II. Hence the "20% to have 5 second reduction" on the cast time does help, but it's not practical, even if you are using cure as the main cure. I hear that crit noise roughly once per fight. So RNG on top of RNG is just not useful.

How I'd change things, is have oCD reduction tied directly to having the lilies up. So they're always counting down when you've used them and the time reduction is directly a consequence of using Cure and Cure II. Also I'd make any crit heal 100% reduce it by 5 seconds. The Ryumyaku gear(i360) has crit on it, the Dai-Ryumyaku gear (i370) does not, rather it has Determination. Because even though I do get those crits, it's more likely that a player is not going to intentionally meld crit to gear just to fish for this either.

But anyway, where we are right now is not a problem, and I don't want SE trying to fix it by nerfing something else, or locking something else behind the lilies. If anything, evidence suggests that the only other practical thing to tie to the lilies is the actual spell speed, seeing as AST's DPS skills cast time are now lower than their healing spells, where as WHM's healing spells have lower cast times than their DPS spells, yet the potency is lower for AST. Except Aspected Helios cast time which is lower than Medica II.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

I-I have to ask, is the Raid meta for Japan that different that your comment makes sense? There is no way on earth they aren't aware of what people are doing. Heck, I'm one of the people who find that if someone isn't comfortable DPSing as a healer they shouldn't have to, and even I realize that healer DPS is a thing and, unless raid damage gets a lot more serious, will always be a thing.

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Doubt it. They upload logs too and the distribution of their skill usage is the same - the smallest amount of heals you can get away with without dying and the rest DPS spells. Some of their top logs rely on mostly fairy heals, regens and ogcds just like ours.

Woah, initially I made this thread simply to come up with fun ideas for new job skills and mechanics. It was not about what playstyle is the correct playstyle for any given job. It was a wishlist specifically just so you could come up with wild and fun ideas to fulfill your job fantasy. So let's drop the hijack here and now and simply agree that we disagree on certain points.

Also if PLD doesn't get that sweet X-blade move that Gauis uses then there is no light left in this world!!!

Well, in that case I want my flamming arrow back !








Please.