PLD, WAR, & DRK balancing ideas

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

You are right that a more difficult to play job should have more advantages to it, that is how pros and cons are weighed, but this does not fix any of the issues. The solution then is to make PLD more challenging to play, to give it more to do, and some actual identity to its gameplay. Then it can be equal to WAR in its advantages, wouldn't you agree?

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I think I have mentioned this before and I do agree that PLD needs to be harder and more rewarding to play. GB RA RA is a staple for PLD and just a little bit of twists depending on extreme cases, WAR/DRK has to decide if they need Delirium/Path or WAR needing to prep Eye for next phase or adds etc. There are more decision making for DRK and WAR, not so much for PLD.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

I think I have mentioned this before and I do agree that PLD needs to be harder and more rewarding to play. GB RA RA is a staple for PLD and just a little bit of twists depending on extreme cases, WAR/DRK has to decide if they need Delirium/Path or WAR needing to prep Eye for next phase or adds etc. There are more decision making for DRK and WAR, not so much for PLD.

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Its even more than that, WAR has a different skillset depending on stance and needs to manage wrath stacks to gain access to powerful abilities, and DRK has to decide whether to have darkside up or down, and gains new skills based on that, and has the whole MP micromanagement side of dark arts that add depth to the job. PLD goes into sword oath and.... does more damage, takes more damage, and generates less enmity, that is it.

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Originally Posted by DestroyerOfLargePlanets

My point is clear enough.

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Your point is. Chronos' tendency to compare the "meta" of FFXIV to other meta might need a bit of rhetorics.

And on that note...

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Originally Posted by Chronons

Although I think you are going to be hard pressed to find any meta that doesnt favor one or more things over others - that is kind of what is implied by a meta.

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What is favored in rock-paper-scissors ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

What is favored in rock-paper-scissors ?

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This is a really bad example, because rock-paper-scissors is objectively and numerically equal on all sides, each beat one and is beaten by one, that is the rules. You cannot judge jobs in the game the same way because there is no numerical weighting to how much better something is. We know that SCH is better than WHM because SCH has a pet, but how much better is SCH because of this and what would need to be added to make WHM exactly as good? You are technically both right, but Chronons is more right in that it is very very hard, if not impossible for the devs to design content in a way that is both interesting and follows an extremely tight meta that won't be broken by the players, and that is something that is extremely limiting from a design perspective.

Technically all the tanks are weighted equally because PLD has better mitigation and worse damage, WAR has better damage and worse mitigation, and DRK is 50/50, but this is highly variable because damage is held in higher regard, and mitigation itself is variable from fight to fight (then there is things like difficulty to play, and the list goes on...).

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

This is a really bad example, because rock-paper-scissors is objectively and numerically equal on all sides, each beat one and is beaten by one, that is the rules.

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You can have plenty of other examples. Which side is favored in chess ? Which character is the absolute strongest in Street Fighter ? Which hero is the bestin LoL ?

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

You are technically both right, but Chronons is more right in that it is very very hard, if not impossible for the devs to design content in a way that is both interesting and follows an extremely tight meta that won't be broken by the players, and that is something that is extremely limiting from a design perspective.

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It's not that hard. From a tank PoV, content is designed with only one constraint : The lowest mitigation job can survive. All the rest, is not tied to the content, but the job themselves. And you can easily create synergies between jobs so that they'll offer benefits (On DPS, because it's the universal goal) so close that it wouldn't matter in the end.
The main problem is that the dev team took a flawed approach from the very beginning. Designing PLD as the tank who...well, tanks, is obviously flawed. Designing PLD as an easy job is also a flaw, because it should provide rewards for players who really achieve mastery on it.

People state that the meta changed when HW was released, but it's wrong. The only things that kept PLD into party in 2.x was the absence of a third tank and the design choice that "stacking the same job is a bad idea". If the LB would charge the same and if you could stack the slashing debuff multiple times, PLD would have been out since 2.1.

In fact, looking back at 2.0, It kinda make sense...PLD was the tank who tanks because WAR was just horrible as a full time MT...then people complained (With good reason) that they wanted to MT as a WAR. I wonder where were those who claim that "It's the game's meta, deal with it and pick a new job" back then ?

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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Ok, ok, ok... I will do my best to clarify. Your premise is, "There shouldn't be mechanically easier but weaker jobs, only easier content". My premise is there should be more mechanically easier jobs and having a Meta develop as a result is ok. Your supporting reasoning is the pursuit of "balance". My supporting reasoning is "equity". I made the assertion that if you arbitrarily raised the DPS of PLD (or any other "low skill" job) you are just flipping the paradigm. Meaning that jobs that require more skill to play and also dont offer extra dps now, will fall out of use in favor of the easier low skilled jobs in competitive play. My working definition of competitive play would be early savage progression (before gear makes it easier ie, world clears) and speed runs/damage runs (FFlogs, etc.) These are the people that develop the Meta that trickles down to the rest of the community not, weekly tome runners, statics 3 months post patch, or primal farms.

Also, im not going to quibble with you over the definition of what a Meta is or isn't. What we are really debating is game design not semantics.

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Originally Posted by DestroyerOfLargePlanets

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You said that in your opinion, dont let me misrepresent you, the more complex classes doing more DPS shouldn't continue as that forces competitive players into a meta and that is a bad thing. My posit to you was if you could name for me any competitive game that does not have a meta, which you conceded that you could not. That means two possible things; Either every competitive game that you or I can think of is doing something bad, or that metas are a natural development of competitive games and arent in fact bad. Now, I will do my best to answer your direct question below.

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

You are right that a more difficult to play job should have more advantages to it, that is how pros and cons are weighed, but this does not fix any of the issues. The solution then is to make PLD more challenging to play, to give it more to do, and some actual identity to its gameplay. Then it can be equal to WAR in its advantages, wouldn't you agree?

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This guy gets its. My issue as stated is with an arbitrary increase in DPS in a mechanically simpler class like PLD. I do agree with you in principle. If you made PLD more difficult to play and increased its DPS, or made it more defensive I would agree that it would be a "balanced" change. In practice however, I disagree that changing PLD is a good idea at all. That is because FFXIV does not only have a competitive player base. There needs to be high accessibility mechanically simpler jobs for low skill players. Those players exist, and vastly outnumber the competitive crowd. Making all the jobs equal in difficulty does one of two things: it isolates low skill players by not giving them the tools they need to grow or it waters down the competitive scene. SE's remedy for this is making the more complex jobs do more damage. That means that no job will ever be unfit for any content they create, only that the harder jobs to play will clear them a little bit faster. It is for that reason, I think, it is important for the game to do its best to have both. PLD is perfectly fine in any content that will ever come out in the game, but it is ok that it does less DPS than DRK. These are jobs that are shared by weekend couch warriors as well as world progression players.

TLDR: There needs to be easy jobs and hard jobs for the spectrum of FFXIV players. The only way to not make jobs obsolete ( if its hard with no benefits - noobs cant play it, veterans dont want to) is to reward the harder jobs in some way.

-Edit-
Reynhart- White, depends on the game, google LoL tier lists

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Technically all the tanks are weighted equally because PLD has better mitigation and worse damage, WAR has better damage and worse mitigation, and DRK is 50/50, but this is highly variable because damage is held in higher regard, and mitigation itself is variable from fight to fight (then there is things like difficulty to play, and the list goes on...).

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The bad news is PLD objectively has the same amount of mitigation as DRK outside of Hallowed Ground (and even then its 7min CD), DRK performs better in that sense because of how flexible DM is at 60sec cooldown. If you calculate the raw mitigation for Skin+Wall+DM vs. Rampart+Sentinel (especially useful for fast kills on a12s while still being in DPS stance), they are more or less the same because of diminishing returns. At 60secs though, DM starts seeing more play because of how more frequently it is up. WAR has the most defensive CDs with high uptime (mostly Inner Beast) though obviously not optimal, hence tank swaps always occurs to spread burden with the most efficiency. DRK only weaker in Wall, -10% vs Sentinel, not too bad. Overall PLD claimed to have best mitigation is arguable. If we are just seeing it on trying to mitigate the most damage, Inner Beast kills everything with the -20% dmg and huge heals that can be used back to back with Infuriate BUT that's just seeing from 1 side of the kits and hence not accurately assessed in the highest level of play.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

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Yeah, this is the unfortunate part, what I should have said is that this is how the tanks are weighted "in theory", in actuality PLD gets a bad deal in every way, and I feel that SE needs to get off the tanky tank train and give PLD something else more meaningful to do (like support).

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Originally Posted by Chronons

I disagree that changing PLD is a good idea at all. That is because FFXIV does not only have a competitive player base. There needs to be high accessibility mechanically simpler jobs for low skill players. Those players exist, and vastly outnumber the competitive crowd. Making all the jobs equal in difficulty does one of two things: it isolates low skill players by not giving them the tools they need to grow or it waters down the competitive scene

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This is actually the completely wrong way to go about it. SE has already said that they are lowering the difficulty ceiling on ALL jobs, meaning that they will all be playable by players with a lower skill level. At that point, having PLD be the simple but strictly worse job is a matter of gross, unnecessary imbalance, which is the problem we have right now. The other issue is the intermingling between the casual and competitive crowd, and that class reputation goes a long way.

I have played PLD since 2.0 launch and in 3.0 I almost quit the job because of a reputation is had gained from its imbalance. I was literally being rejected from PFs in favour of DRKs because of how much better DRKs were in raiding and ex primals, and it was a very demoralising feeling. This is not how the game is supposed to work, and the devs should be working to make party composition MORE accessible, not more limiting, and while they have done an ok patch up job with PLD over the course of the expansion (it is far better than it was now), the core of the job still needs love.

Oh and offhand, relevant to the discussion but not furthering it, I don't believe that PLD should have as much DPS as WAR, far from it, however PLD does need something that defines it as useful to the party beyond mitigation. Clemency and cover were terrible executions at this, leaving highly situational skills that did not equate to the extra damage, though if PLD had (wild throwaway example, not meant to be good or bad) an equivilent to bard songs, that could buff party members, debuff enemies, heal, anything like that, they might be taken more in parties. Though yes, AOE damage is a must.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You can have plenty of other examples. Which side is favored in chess ? Which character is the absolute strongest in Street Fighter ? Which hero is the bestin LoL ?

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Chess literally has the same pieces on each side, it is symmetrical and obviously equal. I haven't played street fighter so can't comment. And in one way or another, there are heroes in LoL that are considered more powerful and have built a reputation, I haven't played it recently but I remember Darius and tryndamere were always some of the more powerful champions (though that could be completely different now). Look at the most commonly banned champions and you will see that there is in fact an imbalance, one that is fine due to the banning phase and the fact that the imbalance isn't so great to upset play (i.e. they aren't good at everything, just a bit harder to deal with for most people), but an imbalance nonetheless. LoL also has so many champions that a meta is more difficult to form as the choices make for extremely varied setups.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

My supporting reasoning is "equity".

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What do you mean by equity ?

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Originally Posted by Chronons

White

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No, but it's tricky

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Originally Posted by Chronons

depends on the game

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In most SF game, even the top-tier character usually have a disadvantageous match-up, and then you have players who specifically master that character for when they face the top-tier. (On a sidenote, that's a meta choice)

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Originally Posted by Chronons

google LoL tier lists

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Same as SF, no champion is better than all the others on every situation

And the last two points are the most important. In FFXIV there is no content where bringing a PLD is more effective than bringing a WAR (If your other tank is a DRK) or a DRK (If your other tank is a WAR).

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

Look at the most commonly banned champions and you will see that there is in fact an imbalance

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There is a ban when a champion is clearly better than all others in most situation. Considering that a party without a WAR is always handicaped compared to a party with a WAR...

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

LoL also has so many champions that a meta is more difficult to form as the choices make for extremely varied setups.

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We have 14 jobs, soon 16 or 17, twelve 8-man instances, three 24-man instances, and 7 Extreme trials, yet none of them managed to create a situation where not having a WAR is a clear benefit...this is not "difficult design", it's "we don't care"...

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

I have played PLD since 2.0 launch and in 3.0 I almost quit the job because of a reputation is had gained from its imbalance. I was literally being rejected from PFs in favour of DRKs because of how much better DRKs were in raiding and ex primals, and it was a very demoralising feeling. This is not how the game is supposed to work, and the devs should be working to make party composition MORE accessible, not more limiting, and while they have done an ok patch up job with PLD over the course of the expansion (it is far better than it was now), the core of the job still needs love.

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You weren't being rejected from PFs because SE made content impossible to do as PLD though, it was from the community's incessant need to adhere to a meta that is utterly not required for 99% of play. Its just a lose/lose for SE. People who play PLD because its the only tank they can manage need it to stay the way it is, great PLDs want it to be revamped so they can push it like other jobs - who do they cater to? Unfortunately most people who play dont even know what rotations look like and are content to stay that way. SE will likely, and from a business perspective unfortunately probably should, cater to them.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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lol I'm glad those are what you took from what I said. I really shouldn't have expected much else.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

lol I'm glad those are what you took from what I said. I really shouldn't have expected much else.

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"I'll quote you without even typing what I quote and make a purposedly vague sentence so that I don't have to develop my answer".
Yeah, sure...

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Originally Posted by Chronons

You weren't being rejected from PFs because SE made content impossible to do as PLD though

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Who said anything about "content impossible to do" ?

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Originally Posted by Chronons

SE will likely, and from a business perspective unfortunately probably should, cater to them.

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Content that require perfect mastery like Savage are already not catered to those people.

I'll leave you to your unexplained "equity"...

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

People state that the meta changed when HW was released, but it's wrong. The only things that kept PLD into party in 2.x was the absence of a third tank

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i disagree whit this in particular, the rest is nice, in HW change many thinks not only adding a new tank.
mp management was a think on healers, determination scale with autoattacks so sword oath was better, damage betwen PLD vs WAR was not really a great diference apart of the aoe and this one burn WAR tp like hell something that not happen anymore.
PLD have better mitigations tools,WAR have it a little worse but more versatile having the storm effects to complete the set, and parry scales a lot better making the shield more relevant that is now, and the figths was not built in heavy dps checks, WAR utility is something that they dont check when they release HW and add DRK bcs WAR original set was built to mach PLD and being they equal in a balance betwen 2 not 3, if DRK was there from the 2.0 sure the WAR rework was better built to balance it betwen the 3 being all usefull in any combination.

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Originally Posted by shao32

damage of PLD vs WAR was not really a great diference

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PLD's damage with Storm's Eye was close to WAR's. If you could have two WAR benefitting from two Eyes...

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Originally Posted by shao32

and the figths was not built in heavy dps checks

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Even if fights with no hard DPS check, PLD is avoided if possible, because people still want to kill as fast as possible.

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Originally Posted by shao32

WAR utility is something that they dont check when they release HW and add DRK bcs WAR original set was built to mach PLD

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They didn't check WAR's utility because "you need two different tanks to be optimal". All of WAR's utility already existed before HW.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

PLD's damage with Storm's Eye was close to WAR's. If you could have two WAR benefitting from two Eyes...

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with thinking you can only have choose betwen 2 tanks that was fair the buff was there alwais, if we have 3 tanks from the begining im pretty sure that slashing effect never go to be a think at least in a raid buff

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Even if fights with no hard DPS check, PLD is avoided if possible, because people still want to kill as fast as possible.

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WAR was better dps but ppl still pick PLD for solotanking and most 2 tank partys bcs PLD dealt same or even more dps and better pasive mitigation that WAR in tank stance, something here is avoidable thanks to the lower value we get on the desing of the conten and jobs making us dont use tank stance when we are tanking, pray if one of the bosses catch you without it and you dont have extremly expert healers perfectly geared at your side, PLD was higly prefered even with all WAR skill set but not enough to push out WAR.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

They didn't check WAR's utility because "you need two different tanks to be optimal". All of WAR's utility already existed before HW.

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the WAR utility already existed i know i was a damm WAR main those days, i say they didnt check the impact of the huge WAR utility when they add DRK, something they adressed and is one of the main reason why PLD are complety inferior, bcs one of the thinks that PLD have to counter WAR utility was they mitigation and they benefics of tanking on shield oath over tanking on defiance, in terms of dps and healers impact.

eye scale from just buff the damage of 2 of the lower damage dealers of the game to become a vessel of destruction for 3 jobs on a party ho dealt a lot of damage, tank damage get increse with the expansion and the buff become mandatory.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

imo balance can only be achieved if all tanks have access to certain key abilities.
Those would be:

- Slashing debuff
- (all type) damage down debuff
- similar damage output

In all other aspects the tanks can be very different.

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This is part of where trying to fit PLD into a raid static tends to be difficult. Beyond the very low DPS compared to DRK and WAR, WAR is going to be THE go-to tank because of Storm's Path and Storm's Eye. Even excluding deliverance stance and fell cleave; WAR can put out some pretty high numbers in DPS and are king of debuffs just with eye & path. While both PLD and DRK provide their own debuffs in the form of Reprisal and Rage of Halone, DRK gets an extra debuff with delirium putting them at an advantage for debuffs against magic users. Changes to some of PLD's skills in heavensward have made PLD even less desirable - moving goring blade into a >50 skill; means PLD has nothing for DPS in older fights - it's now just Rage of Halone. Changing the way shield swipe works means PLD's bulwark is fairly useless now; you used to be able to pop bulwark and shield swipe for days. Nothing about PLD stands out as useful in a raid situation. Their DPS is the lowest, their raid utility is severely lacking and couple that with the (still pervasive) idea that PLDs are the easiest tank to pick up and learn (hence noob tank); nobody wants them in a bleeding-edge static.

Both WAR and DRK are very well balanced around each other and WAR has been balanced around PLD since 2.x but PLD + DRK has no synergy. When it's a no-brainer to bring a WAR because of their Path + Eye debuffs and raw damage output; statics aren't left with much of a choice. Bring a tank that has 2 useful debuffs and comparable DPS or a tank that has 1 useful debuff and low DPS? Again, a no-brainer decision. SE needs to leave DRK and WAR alone and give PLD the raid utility and DPS they deserve (especially if you want to see bleeding-edge statics able to choose a DRK + PLD comp)

* PLD's blind and pacification is useless in end-game raiding, bosses can't miss and can't be pacified

I mean really besides the mp gimmick of drk, pld plays pretty similarly, If say they had to alternate a combo for an additional debuff or buff the gameplay(skill) wouldnt really be much lower than drk. Not saying pld dont because im sure they do to keep goring up, but still as mt or ot, besides popping DA every 2 combos how super different is it, oh yeah and keeping scourge and plunges when off cd

for paladin they either need to change the entire games dps or gtfo meta to make defsive choices viable and actually desirable...
or they need to rework paladin into an offensive tank.... becase defence is just laughable...

you could pretty much just change 1 skill. divine veil. instead of having that as a buff that shields the entire party. make it offensive make it a divine buff to the parties attack power / attack magic power, and suddenly you'd find a lot of people looking at paladins... even if it worked by oath. shield oath you get the shield effect sword oath you get the attack power......

paladin would be instantly more desirable even with that one change. wouldn't even matter how much of an attack power boost it actually was.

either paladins need to move into a more offensive role, or the game needs to move into a more defensive meta than dps or gtfo

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Originally Posted by shao32

i disagree whit this in particular, the rest is nice, in HW change many thinks not only adding a new tank.
mp management was a think on healers, determination scale with autoattacks so sword oath was better, damage betwen PLD vs WAR was not really a great diference apart of the aoe and this one burn WAR tp like hell something that not happen anymore.
PLD have better mitigations tools,WAR have it a little worse but more versatile having the storm effects to complete the set, and parry scales a lot better making the shield more relevant that is now, and the figths was not built in heavy dps checks, WAR utility is something that they dont check when they release HW and add DRK bcs WAR original set was built to mach PLD and being they equal in a balance betwen 2 not 3, if DRK was there from the 2.0 sure the WAR rework was better built to balance it betwen the 3 being all usefull in any combination.

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Parry was and is still useless and has no effect with your shield. If you were tanking end-game with PLD in 2.x, you'd remember why you took a high block rate shield vs a high mitigation shield...

I challenge you to run any of the following at min-iLevel and still tell me there weren't heavy DPS checks:
Titan Extreme (heart phase large DPS check, gaol mini-DPS check and gaoler mini-DPS check)
Ifrit Extreme (nails DPS check)
Garuda Extreme (Chirada and Suparna DPS check)
Ultima's Bane - the whole fight is a DPS check as well as healing check
Coil - just about every turn has a DPS check

This is why the STR tank meta came about. Wars had the HP to withstand tankbusters with proper CDs while wearing STR accessories max-melded with VIT and PLDs would roll VIT accessories max melded with STR. Stance dancing was still a thing then and good PLDs would sword oath through most of the fight while WAR would keep defiance off.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

for paladin they either need to change the entire games dps or gtfo meta to make defsive choices viable and actually desirable...
or they need to rework paladin into an offensive tank.... becase defence is just laughable...

you could pretty much just change 1 skill. divine veil. instead of having that as a buff that shields the entire party. make it offensive make it a divine buff to the parties attack power / attack magic power, and suddenly you'd find a lot of people looking at paladins... even if it worked by oath. shield oath you get the shield effect sword oath you get the attack power......

paladin would be instantly more desirable even with that one change. wouldn't even matter how much of an attack power boost it actually was.

either paladins need to move into a more offensive role, or the game needs to move into a more defensive meta than dps or gtfo

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I seriously doubt that will happen. That meta has been around since 2.x and would require HUGE changes to implement. It will be easier and better for the entire community to simply give PLDs the offensive skills they need.
A change like that to divine veil would almost certainly make PLD the new go-to tank and groups would suddenly say PLD or GTFO. I agree, PLD needs help but it needs balanced improvements so that there's not this constant BiS party comp that excludes classes (MNK, PLD, WHM). SE needs to rethink these roles to make them, not just viable but, desirable with any party comp of 2 tank, 2 heal, 2 mele, 2 ranged

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Originally Posted by Llus

I seriously doubt that will happen. That meta has been around since 2.x and would require HUGE changes to implement. It will be easier and better for the entire community to simply give PLDs the offensive skills they need.
A change like that to divine veil would almost certainly make PLD the new go-to tank and groups would suddenly say PLD or GTFO. I agree, PLD needs help but it needs balanced improvements so that there's not this constant BiS party comp that excludes classes (MNK, PLD, WHM). SE needs to rethink these roles to make them, not just viable but, desirable with any party comp of 2 tank, 2 heal, 2 mele, 2 ranged

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oh no no I'm not saying it would happen. I was more saying any kind of defensive buffs to the job would just be lolled at if the meta doesn't change.

it would be the same as giving a whm even more powerfull heals in 4.0.... even something like aoe benediction... they'd just get lolled at cos still no dps......

my divine veil thing wasn't that well thought out to be honest it was just a quick example of how any kind of offensive utility would make pld more desirable. yet a hundred defensive buffs the job would still be a joke

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

"I'll quote you without even typing what I quote and make a purposedly vague sentence so that I don't have to develop my answer".
Yeah, sure...

I'll leave you to your unexplained "equity"...

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I guess my sarcasm went over your head. Apologies, ill explain for you. I found it funny that despite for the third time laying out the argument in detail you not only failed to engage it, but instead nitpicked musings about what "games" have or don't have a meta.(You are wrong about those by the way. White does have an accepted first turn advantage in chess theory and your responses to SF and LoL are that they have a more balanced meta, therefore they are examples of games without metas that favor some picks over others. That is a stupid argument.) Its not rocket science, other posters have engaged the idea and we had a parlay about their response. I know you read those posts because you keep copying my responses to them and attempting to weigh in, although even there you seem to lack an understanding of context.

I'm not explaining what I mean by "equity" any further, go reread, google things you don't understand. Again, others haven't had an issue understanding. Its not a failure of the message its a failure of the receiver at play here.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

I found it funny that despite for the third time laying out the argument in detail you not only failed to engage

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You're right, it's funny...because on top of not arguing anything apart "That's how it should be because I say so", you also fail to understand other's point, up to considering an opposite argument as "your point', and mocking the irony...It's also not my fault if you don't understand the fundamental concept of what a meta is and why it exists in games...and especially how it does not really apply to FFXIV, despite the term being pasted all over it.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

I'm not explaining what I mean by "equity" any further, go reread, google things you don't understand.

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I don't need to google it, I'm just pretty sure you're not using the word properly.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

Again, others haven't had an issue understanding.

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Funny how "not agreeing with you" is considered not understanding...

So, let me say it once again. This game should not have easier but weaker jobs, because it makes those who play those jobs away from the top team, even they have the personal skill to compete. And for those that can't compete ? Their lesser mastery will still be fully enough for the easier content.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

Except that every job is able to still clear the hardest content, a4s was the only exception due to the huge amount of magic damage and mostly this type of balance influences more heavily on the week 1 world progression (speedrun for now) but not necessarily when the fights have been done weeks and months after and people still think WAR is a must and PLD is not viable. People are just being sheeps if they feel that PLD can't clear any content or the job makes it WAY harder to clear which is not true at all. People complain and overreating over balance issue when they aren't even raiding is like beating a dead horse. How do you know if there is a problem if you haven't tried it out yet? It's all speculation until proven.

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Sarcatica, while there is at least one comp that every job can be in and clear all raid content I doubt that this would currently be considered a viable progression raid static in a world first race even though it follows my rules:

• Tank 1: Drk
• Tank 2: Pld
• Healer 1: Whm
• Healer 2: Ast
• Melee 1: Mnk
• Melee 2: Drg
• Ranged 1: Smn
• Ranged 2: Blm

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I bet that some people now still think that PLD makes it harder to clear a12s which again is not true at all.

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It is harder to clear with a Paladin (it requires several changes in comp to cover the deficiencies at the cost of losing further dps which in turn increases difficulty), but not to the extent that a static running with a Paladin would be multiple weeks behind due to needing superior gear.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

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Equity - the quality of being fair or impartial; fairness; impartiality. As expresses by the notion that playing a harder class, should come with some sort of award. DPS, in the examples we have been discussing. As you can see, that is a proper use of the word. Or maybe you don't, idk anymore.

Its "not agreeing with me" that displays a lack of understanding. Its the unwillingness or inability to develop a complete argument. Its the absurdness of claiming that FFXIV doesn't have a meta when concerning jobs, and a misrepresentation of what a meta is to fit your narrative.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

So, let me say it once again. This game should not have easier but weaker jobs, because it makes those who play those jobs away from the top team, even they have the personal skill to compete. And for those that can't compete ? Their lesser mastery will still be fully enough for the easier content.

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Broken grammar aside, this is the closest thing you have posited that resembles an argument in favor of your premise. I think you are saying that if SE made PLD harder to play and increased its DPS, that competitive players would be happy and that it wouldn't be so difficult that low skill players couldn't still play it? Im not really sure though, your phrasing is very difficult to confer meaning from.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

oh no no I'm not saying it would happen. I was more saying any kind of defensive buffs to the job would just be lolled at if the meta doesn't change.

it would be the same as giving a whm even more powerfull heals in 4.0.... even something like aoe benediction... they'd just get lolled at cos still no dps......

my divine veil thing wasn't that well thought out to be honest it was just a quick example of how any kind of offensive utility would make pld more desirable. yet a hundred defensive buffs the job would still be a joke

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Yea, defensive CDs - unless there's a major shift in the tanking meta - won't help at all. Some changes to existing buffs would be great, but overall more DPS and synergy with DRK is called for. For example, reprisal - procs a reset for more DPS, low blow procs a reset for more DPS; but PLD that procs an activation of shield swipe gets changed to a long CD instead of simply making it an off GCD. Hell, get rid of the timer on that one skill alone and and PLD DPS would shoot through the roof in a MT position. Give swipe a useful PvE debuff like blunt resist down (shield lob, swipe and bash should all be blunt damage anyway) and watch the people start making PLD & MNK comp groups again with an option of DRK OR WAR.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

You said that in your opinion, dont let me misrepresent you, the more complex classes doing more DPS shouldn't continue as that forces competitive players into a meta and that is a bad thing. My posit to you was if you could name for me any competitive game that does not have a meta, which you conceded that you could not. That means two possible things; Either every competitive game that you or I can think of is doing something bad, or that metas are a natural development of competitive games and arent in fact bad.

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IMO it's more like a combination of the two: metas are a natural development of competitive games and it's always a bad thing. It's bad, but unfortunately it's unavoidable. What can be done to combat that, however -- and we can see this in League of Legends for example -- are constant balancing tweaks to the various playable characters. These balancing tweaks aim to conserve a level playing field. But in any case, it's no use pursuing that train of thought; I think your next paragraph is much more interesting and I'd like to shift focus there.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

My issue as stated is with an arbitrary increase in DPS in a mechanically simpler class like PLD.

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I have an issue with that as well, but for different reasons which are irrelevant at this point. I mentioned it in my first comment on this thread iirc.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

In practice however, I disagree that changing PLD is a good idea at all. That is because FFXIV does not only have a competitive player base. There needs to be high accessibility mechanically simpler jobs for low skill players. Those players exist, and vastly outnumber the competitive crowd. Making all the jobs equal in difficulty does one of two things: it isolates low skill players by not giving them the tools they need to grow or it waters down the competitive scene.

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I get what you mean. SE needs to cater to both the competitive and the casual players so there appears to be a tradeoff when adjusting the difficulties of the tank classes. The question is: how do we adjust the difficulty of all tank classes so that they are ALL accessible and playable by low-skill players while also providing challenge to competitive players who want to push the limits of their class/job? How do we achieve this while also avoiding limiting player choice by making one tank class/job more effective than another tank class/job? The ideal situation, in other words, is to have all the 3 tank classes at equal difficulty and equal damage (personal dps or raidwide dps contribution) but to have the difficulty of these classes land in the perfect "goldilocks" zone which satisfies the level of play of both casual and competitive players.

I can think of a multi-step process that may alleviate some of these problems:
Step 1: Increase the difficulty and damage output of PLD. (Not its personal damage, but allow it to increase raidwide DPS via support buffs or support mechanics). At this point, PLD, WAR, and DRK will all be above the skill level of most casual players. They will effectively be isolated/"locked out" of these classes because they're simply too hard for them to play. Step 2 will address this issue.
Step 2: Make rotations of all classes/jobs more straightforward. No more trying to figure out if saving Infuriate and Internal Release for your Berserk window is a DPS loss or gain (hold it, obviously xD). If Infuriate and IR had the same CD as Berserk, than it would be much more straightforward. Basically, if you can create a simple flowchart of the rotation of a job/class without having to write down a bunch of crap in asterisks then that's a good start.
Step 3: Create level 60 tutorials for each job detailing the proper rotations. (If SE has the resources, then this would further cater to the low-skill players while having no detrimental effects to the competitive scene).
Step 4: Make ridiculously hard fights that require the competitive players to rearrange their rotations in order to optimize damage output in the fight.

SE's plans for 4.0 rotations actually reflects this. I hear they're going to make rotations easier and more straightforward. Moreover, I hear that the next raid will have a difficulty level that's twice as difficult as the savage tier right now! I'm a competitive player, and even if they do make rotations easier, I'll be happy so long as I can still push my job to its maximum potential in such a difficult fight.

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Originally Posted by Llus

Parry was and is still useless and has no effect with your shield

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parry was "useless" but i still remember those 27% i get and the rate i get it compared to now, parry was a lot better in arr by far, they nerf it a lot caping it at 20% and lowering they rate from dex, still PLD was superior bcs have double check instead only a check, and have more chance to get a block of 30-35% or parrys of 25-27%.

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Originally Posted by Llus

I challenge you to run any of the following at min-iLevel and still tell me there weren't heavy DPS checks

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i dont have too, im in the game form the arr beta every month excet just 1 month i take a rest, i clear everything when was release, and yes they have dps checks but by far less severe that alexander checks, the only heavy dps check we can consider here it was the avatar in turn 8, so read again please i say "figths was not built in heavy dps checks", i dont say they dont have it at all.

the SRT tank meta start like a hybrid builds like much at the final tier on final coil comes out, whit getting overgeared you meaby can get more SRT pieces but that request have expert healers in top gear at you side, was in HW when get out of control with the lower damage every mod dealt to us and send all fending accesories to the dump, no dps check on arr request the huge amount of dps we need to get to defeat faust and is the easy one, HW was build behind dps walls.

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Originally Posted by DestroyerOfLargePlanets

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Thank you. Genuinely. This is an exquisite example of an argument based in logic and reasoning. It also shows that you fully understand the counterpoint I was positing.

I would agree with your multi-step approach. It provides the much needed context that others seem to neglect. I think you have effectively tried to address the isolation affect of complicating classes. I also think that giving PLD, or all the tanks for that matter, different but equal contributions to DPS is generally good. The crux of this, I think, will be SE's ability to effectively balance. Low skill players will always be a limit to how interesting/complex they can make the jobs. There are plenty of players who are lvl 60 that don't have a clue what rotations, BiS, or cooldown management mean. And they generally will outnumber those of us who do. Now, will SE be able to make the jobs simple enough for new players, while also keeping them all equally desirable for competitive play? I'm not sure, but perhaps. My pointing to other games always having a meta is my suggesting that it is very, very difficult. Namely because most games have the same issue, catering to low and high skill players.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Sarcatica, while there is at least one comp that every job can be in and clear all raid content I doubt that this would currently be considered a viable progression raid static in a world first race even though it follows my rules:

• Tank 1: Drk
• Tank 2: Pld
• Healer 1: Whm
• Healer 2: Ast
• Melee 1: Mnk
• Melee 2: Drg
• Ranged 1: Smn
• Ranged 2: Blm

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In the most logical way you will want to avoid this comp in the lower ilvl BUT now it is still possible to clear I can 100% guarantee you that. If you are looking to raid at the highest level, you are always seeking on what else you can do for your team, always abuse the best picks for the team if possible, for me I had the ability to flex PLD/DRK so i could accomodate clearing it better for my group. Top players of any games don't go on begging the developers to buff certain classes whatnot because they don't want to play other classes. This only applies to the top players, because they will look into exploiting best picks and they have the ability to flex other jobs of the same role. What sort of top player that doesn't want to adapt to the current best meta? It is silly at best if you choose to do speedrun (in the context of ffxiv) as PLD when everyone literally knows that DRK is simply better. But that's another aspect of the game that almost sees no play. SE has no obligation to balance jobs around what the speedrunners do, judging from how slowly they buffed PLD in the first place.

If your team suddenly wants to speedrun and hope that you will pick up DRK instead of PLD, what will you do? It is all in the matter of perspective, people just like to play what's best even though majority of them don't even know how to push the jobs to the limit at least well enough. Also why I feel that the 2016 census has DRK and WAR at the top 2.

The biggest gripe is that the discrepancy on DPS is mainly from the skill of each player. Like I cleared Creator within 2 weeks with mostly i250s, if anyone is not able to clear at this point with mostly i260s and i270s is not the balance issue but your skill. With the i250s, we first killed it before 2nd cycle of last phase resolved.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

It is harder to clear with a Paladin (it requires several changes in comp to cover the deficiencies at the cost of losing further dps which in turn increases difficulty), but not to the extent that a static running with a Paladin would be multiple weeks behind due to needing superior gear.

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Some top groups did world progression with PLD and MNK, to say that PLD makes it harder to clear a12s is ignorant. Are you pulling facts out of your ass now? I know most people in ths forum do tbh. People don't listen to understand, they listen to argue.

I am going to pose this question to you, have you cleared at least a12s as a tank to comment on this matter? Your opinions need to have facts to back it up if you are going to make a preposterous claim such as "PLD makes it harder to clear a12s". If you still have problem to clear a12s with PLD with all the gear you can get now, you clearly are in the dark and it's best to ponder about it.

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Originally Posted by Chronons

Now, will SE be able to make the jobs simple enough for new players, while also keeping them all equally desirable for competitive play? I'm not sure, but perhaps. My pointing to other games always having a meta is my suggesting that it is very, very difficult. Namely because most games have the same issue, catering to low and high skill players.

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In the first place, it is a very hard task for MMOs to diversify raid picks. Unlike games with pvp, MMOs are constrained by how the raids interact with the players, sooner or later people will find the best comp, route etc. Compare to LoL, DotA2, CSGO, SC2 etc where opportunity is not presented the same way mainly because the opponents are human as well which means that diversifying raid picks on MMOs needs more variables to play against, all bosses so far have the same patterns with rngs. The root of the problem comes from the design itself where tactics on how you handle mechanics don't change, or rarely differ. As long as the formula stays, diversity on picks remain stale at the top competition.

Clearing A12S is harder on PLD than it is on DRK or WAR. You either have to tank swap or are stretched very thin on CDs. Both those constitute making a fight harder in my eyes.

Could you still clear with PLD? Sure. I don't think the point was that PLD isn't viable. The point was that it's not optimal and it isn't.

Does being optimal ultimately matter to most people? It depends. PLD wasn't optimal back in Gordias and it mattered because the gap was large enough to have a real impact on everyone regardless of skill or motivation. PLD isn't optimal in A12S but the gap is comparably much smaller so it matters much less.

Relative balance is what's important because absolute balance is basically impossible.

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Originally Posted by Brian_

Clearing A12S is harder on PLD than it is on DRK or WAR. You either have to tank swap or are stretched very thin on CDs. Both those constitute making a fight harder in my eyes.

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I disagree that it is harder to clear with PLD in a12s, it was simply a case of PLD not using the right CDs.

In the earlier days, PLD used Rampart into Sentinel during the 2 stasis phase. This led to PLD not having Sentinel during 1st inception which was key. Little did we know that tweaking CDs made it way easier for PLD to survive tank busters even when tanking alone.

I was a believer that PLD taxed WAR into swap for tank busters but it was later debunked when a better CD rotation got out. Sentinel (1st stasis), Rampart (2nd stasis), Rampart (timegate), Sentinel (1st inception), Rampart (2nd inception). This rotation later on became incorporated into DRK as well because on how similar the CDs are to PLD's, extra on the DM for more mitigation that allows tanking outside of Grit with less healing needed. Obviously not optimal to bring PLD still, just illustrating that PLD has what it takes to clear a12s without any help from WAR.

For a4s exclusively, the tank busters hit very frequently at ~30secs in between iirc which at that time was the STR meta as well where everything was tight on max HP (17k hp). DRK had way better standing on that turn mostly because of DM with the 60sec CD. I remember I had to have my WAR swap for sure on the 3rd/4th leg while I tanked the fausts.

You just said it yourself that the DRK has it easier due to DM.

Like I said...

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You either have to tank swap OR are stretched very thin on CDs.

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Your example is a CD rotation that has been stretched very thin. Using just a Rampart to mitigate something necessitates ShO or on-point healer shielding / virus / disable / etc. Compare that to DRK who can just throw out DM on a 60s recast and stack multiple substantial CDs for each buster or WAR who can always fall back on IB if stuff goes south, stack CDs, and rely on the shorter CD of Holmgang for PH + Cleave pairings.

Again, I never said PLD couldn't clear. I was just echoing the sentiment that PLD is indeed not optimal and makes clearing A12S harder.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

In the first place, it is a very hard task for MMOs to diversify raid picks.

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These are actually really solid points. Its even the case that players will determine whether its better to have/prioritize ranged or melee DPS depending on melee up time in a fight. It just adds more reasons as to while I may agree in concept, I'm not so sure its practical without major changes to the game.

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Originally Posted by Sarcatica

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Would you please stop with the Appeals to Accomplishment, Arguments from Authority and Ad Hominems?

The ability for comps that include Paladins to clear A12S does not mean that there are not imbalances between jobs. In fact Speedclearing content using specific comps actually showcases the existence of those imbalances.

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I am going to pose this question to you, have you cleared at least a12s as a tank to comment on this matter? Your opinions need to have facts to back it up if you are going to make a preposterous claim such as "PLD makes it harder to clear a12s". If you still have problem to clear a12s with PLD with all the gear you can get now, you clearly are in the dark and it's best to ponder about it.

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This is a perfect example of a fallacious Appeal to Accomplishment. You are denying the validity of an argument based purely on completion of A12S.

I am current progressing on a12s (learning and mastering the mechanics is my group's primary limitation right now) as a Paladin and am seeing a ton of places that if I switched to Dark Knight I could make things far easier for myself and my healers. I know Dark Mind's shorter cooldown would make handling the first two Punishing Heats and the General's Time much easier. I also know that Plunge and the the Dark Knight's higher DpS would make killing the General's Wings faster and easier. I do not need to have cleared A12S to know these things.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

I know Dark Mind's shorter cooldown would make handling the first two Punishing Heats and the General's Time much easier.

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Yeah, DRK is absolutely OP in AS12 -- especially with General's Time. Pair Reprisal with Shadowskin and you have the rough equivalent of a Shadow Wall but for 20s instead of just 10s. Shadow Wall after that, then Dark Mind after that. Delirium is a free 10% on top of that and General's Time ends up hitting like a baby. Hell, with a SCH, a DRK can tank that add without tank stance which really blew my mind when I think back on my first days in AS12 where every tankbuster from Time nearly squashed me. Truly OP, the DRK is indeed.

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Originally Posted by DestroyerOfLargePlanets

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mmmm that make me wonder if they can desing the bosses with 2 tank buster, one magical and other phisical, to make PLD and DRK being better in x phases instead of x bosses.

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Originally Posted by shao32

mmmm that make me wonder if they can desing the bosses with 2 tank buster, one magical and other phisical, to make PLD and DRK being better in x phases instead of x bosses.

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That would only partially help. Instead of the comp Meta being War + Drk or War + Pld based only tankbuster damage type the comp Meta would be War + Drk/Pld. Doesn't really change the "must have Warrior"ness of the Meta.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

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What I am highlighting here is that PLD can clear just fine even without swapping from WAR hence has no problem at taking tank busters alone from 0-100 of the fight, exception on the last phase obviously. CDs are definitely not stretched thin because they pretty much line up 100% just fine. People propagate that PLD makes it harder to clear a12s, let that sink into you, just a clear and people get the notion of having to bring DRK because of this whole thing. What's next? WHM can't clear a12s? Obviously there has to be a limit to how players make believe others, Creator has been lenient so far that all jobs can just as easily.

Speedrunning is a part that most raiders don't even run at all. Existence of such imbalance doesn't impede with your clear of any content and that's by far true. DRK better in any content versus PLD, so what, it doesn't have any effect on anyone who wants to clear or do farm parties on Creator. DM atm is only nice for DRK to push DPS without the Grit penalty while still being able to deal with the tank busters, and this extra DPS topic is honestly another matter for when you have cleared A12S, or at least comfortable to push your DPS outside of Grit/ShO.

Most teams with PLD let the PLD tank General's Might on add phase and this has a deliberate intention which is to accommodate CDs if the PLD does phase 1 tanking. There are so many PLD povs that have cleared and the killing of General's Wings was just as smooth. I have no idea what you are talking about tbh.

I'm sorry for this but looking from your logs so far, you aren't even playing PLD well enough. That, added with your team's performance will be pretty hard to even look at the later phase of A12S, despite being full ilvl (?).

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

That would only partially help. Instead of the comp Meta being War + Drk or War + Pld based only tankbuster damage type the comp Meta would be War + Drk/Pld. Doesn't really change the "must have Warrior"ness of the Meta.

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well now SAM is confirmed like a dps, make me think about if they go to get a slashing debuff that dont lower they personal dps like ninja does, making stom eye no longer mandatory eliminating the chance of nerfing it and with somekind of utility on PLD and DRK to compentase the WAR personal dps and storm path to make PLD/DRK a very good combo in the presence of a SAM, with leaving X tank/WAR plus ninja the other set up, i belive its pretty fair.

still im think they need to ddo something with raw intuition and equilibrium, but whitout information about of the stats changes and new skills i dont go to get there yet.