When I posted my reply that didn't have quotes, I didn't quote anything because you only wrote a single paragraph. After refreshing the page, two more quotes popped up and I didn't reply to those until my next post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Except in this game, the terms raid and dungeon are used to differentiate between 8 man content and 4 man content. We don't say dungeon and expect someone to correlate that with 8 man content. 8 man content is trial / raid content. 4 man content will not teach a tank how to OT nor will it teach a tank how to tank swap correctly. We are all familiar with those Defiance / Grit / ShO OTs in 24-man content that didn't know better. That's what happens when you don't teach someone how to raid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
No, I would still use my CDs as there is nothing else to use them on for one CD cycle. That's what I mean when I say you have a surplus of mitigation. Saving it wouldn't do anything but be a complete waste. I know this because I push my DPS and doing so requires that I know exactly when I will have my CDs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
It doesn't matter that you need more healing because that's what they're doing anyways. Healing. Regardless of if you're in tank stance or not, they can't afford to not top you off because the TB hits hard and hits often. Even if it takes them another cast of healing, they're not losing the opportunity to Cleric Stance and DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
And...Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
...right on queue. Yoshida just flat out said that it was by their design that ACC works the way it does. How is that a player driven meta? He flat out says that they tuned content so early clear groups have no choice but to stack ACC to push DPS. It's convenient you just completely deleted that part, huh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
My god... LOL. You do realize that you began this argument by saying that tanks needed to change because some random PLD got carried through A11N while only spamming RoH and you didn't think it was right the content didn't have a hard tank check to gate him until he learned how to play by your standards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
https://media.giphy.com/media/GfAD7B...facebook_s.jpg
Ridiculous.
Making Jobs Rotationally Easier in 4.0
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11-08-2016, 07:40 PMBrian_
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11-08-2016, 08:11 PMSarcatica
I am going to pull logs for tank stance vs DPS stance comparison.
A9S
3:57 https://www.fflogs.com/reports/YG2Pr...e=damage-taken
5:51 https://www.fflogs.com/reports/DJn9h...e=damage-taken
DPS comparison: 1840 VS 1080
Damage Taken Per Sec for MT comparison: 2093 VS 1873
Healing Per Sec comparison: 3970.1 VS 3882
Healing on MT comparison: 338.6k VS 509.5k from Main Healer. Excluding SCH healing because my SCH heals the group mostly, only a few Adlos to me.
Overheal overall comparison: 20.49% VS 39.77%
So let's see again. I took more damage without Grit, that's for sure. I took 320 DTPS more overall, that's about 17% more damage taken. BUT, overall I did 760 more DPS, that's 70% more DPS. Effectively I trade 17% damage taken for 70% DPS. Does it worth, you might ask. Let's see how much the healers have to heal me. 3:57 log features me taking 338.6k effective damage that was healed, compare that to 5:51 log, it's about 1.5 ratio for both the time and effective damage taken. In short, healing is barely affected while efficiency on DPS and execution rise up tremendously. This also achieved much lower overheal which all healers would want. So in the end, is it worth? Yes, for sure.
EDIT: note that this requires good players to execute, so that's where your skillgap is showing by far. Don't be a jerk to advocate full DPS mode for tanks eitherbecause chances is you will die from that, mostly because you don't know how to manage your CDs well. It's all about balancing your toolkit and understanding how much you can push your limit. And even then, this parse is well below the fastest speedrun in FFlogs.
Late edit: I know this isn't a fair comparison due to difference in power for all players, and also me supposedly being the only variance that affects the healer's healing and DPS. You are free to interpret whatever you like from this because I was just trying to make a point. -
11-08-2016, 10:39 PMReynhartSo I guess Castle Meridianum and Praetorum are raids, then...and since T5, T9, T13, A4, A8 and A12 are only arena fights against one boss, every trial could be called a raid, too...Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
So, basically, it wouldn't change how you'd spend your CD...only that you take more damage, which suddenly becomes the responsibility of your healer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
So, no combination of tank mitigation/healer healing power can actually reduce the required number of cast ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
As convenient as you ignoring how many time he said that it was the team choicesQuote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
Yeah, of course it started with that...Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
As for the player I mentioned, you've actually acknowledged that it was really bad and that PvE progression model is bad...Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
...then the next post, suddenly, the difficulty disbtribution is fine ? Since you like your precise naming, Alex Normal is a raid it should teach you how to raid. And spamming RoH is a very bad way to play PLD at lvl 60. It's absurd to wait for Alex Savage to teach such a basic concept.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
On another topic, let's suppose you have a party with four BLM, that still think transposing is a way of switching between Fire and Ice, and that Enochian is useless. Even in normal raid, such a team wouldn't be able to win the fight with such a low DPS. Bad tanks shouldn't have that kind of free pass. -
11-08-2016, 11:08 PMaleph_null
General's might does a tank buster every few seconds, even if you go into tank stance for the whole period the extra mitigation probably won't buy your healers much time to dps. Even in full defiance you can only IB 1 out of 2-3 tank busters, so I don't think your healers' dps would be able to outweigh the personal dps you gain from stance dancing.
As for your example with 4 blms, that's not a fair comparison. You're comparing a party carrying 1 bad pld vs a party carrying 4 bad blms. -
11-08-2016, 11:31 PMReynhartOk, 4 BLM is a bit too much. But I'm pretty sure most people would say that carrying even BLM is unacceptable.Quote:
Originally Posted by aleph_null
And, on fights in Gordias or Midas, maybe even one such BLM would be enough DPS loss to hit enrage, while I'm not really sure a PLD only spamming RoH would change much as long as the 4 DPS are good.
Another option, totally unrelated to this topic, would be to make SSS a real requirement to enter the corresponding content. This way, you'd still have some bad tanks, but not so far as too ignore even the most basic rotation.
Well, of course it is, since that's the actual meta. Does it mean that it's the only concept that should be viable ? Couldn't you have a tank that reduces far than 17% damage by turtling ? And does having such a tank means that suddenly, every tank should follow this new meta ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcatica
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11-08-2016, 11:37 PMaleph_null
It's not a matter of acceptable or not, but it's possible to carry 1-2 bad dps if we're talking about normal mode. I often end up in the top 3 when I parse a normal alex run despite being a tank, so that means there are at least two underperforming dps in those parties.
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11-08-2016, 11:54 PMReynhartThat's exactly what I think shouldn't happen. Of course, I'm not talking about not being able to "carry" someone would only do "slightly less than optimal", but someone doing "blatantly obviously bad without needing a parser to tell what's wrong".Quote:
Originally Posted by aleph_null
For DPS, it's kind of easy to set. You put some DPS checks, and even personal DPS check so that someone could not compensate for you. But how would you do that for a tank ? If your DPS are great, your contribution is actually not that important, so you're easy to carry. The only thing where tank are on their own is generating enmity and surviving...which are both trivial before Savage. -
11-09-2016, 12:12 AMwhiskeybravoThat's really interesting and definitely shows the values of aggressive tanking. The only controversial (not the best word for this I can think of at the moment) aspect would be the overhealing. I could see where the healer might be used to having to heal you more at certain spots due to your normal aggressive tanking, but also the fact that if you are taking less damage the heal is still the same. EI, if 1 cure 2 normally gets you from say, 70% health to 100% health, now you're in tank stance and only at 80% HP, so when you take that cure 2 10% now counts as an overheal. Something like that anyways... But overall it's pretty damning evidence, dps vs dtps most notably.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcatica
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11-09-2016, 12:14 AMDaulBanI think the issue with Alex Normal not teaching people how to raid is less to do with the fact that it's not punishing enough, so much as the fact that there isn't enough content to spread the difficulty curve though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
All of Alexander (Gordias, Midas, Creator) needs to be clearable by anyone on the 'Normal Level'. It's the new base content, slightly more tricky than a Dungeon but easily clearable. It's what anyone and their grandma can do and it's designed that way because it gives us more to do than roulettes.
That design choice makes sense because of how few people actually Raid, it probably makes much more sense to SE to have the four current floors be easy and just a taste of the harder 8-man content but still have it be pretty easy than to create some sort of wall. To learn, you have to fail, and failing is frustrating. Failing with friends is frustrating, failing with pugs even more. To keep people happy they need the Alex content to be easy...
Unfortunately, the only other avenue they have for teaching people savage are EX Primals. Sophia is probably the best primal to learn as a tank right now, to be honest. Regular tank busters, tank swaps that are punishing but possible to live through, with a fairly minimal HP floor to survive with minimal mitigation. If they had more content available they might be able to do as you say and create a better slope to Savage but to be honest I'd rather have the current system in place with more to do as a casual than the old Coil system of Dungeons or the difficult raids. -
11-09-2016, 12:18 AMshao32nice one, 17% trade defense for 70% more dps, this is a good example to make you think why whe have tank stance, for agro? just the first 10 seconds, for extra mitigation? there is no much stuff on the game that a rampath and adloquium dont solve alone, for the damage penalitation? yeah sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcatica
this is my first concern about tanks, on WAR dont matter much bcs excep the combos and ogc all job skills avoid damage penalitaton, but on PLD and DRK where we are not desing to tank stance.... i hope for a good rework of shield/ grit /defiance, to make our TANK MODE made for tank be mandatory on MT, in other words a fair trade off and not a 17%-70%, meaby remove damage penalty and ajust the potency of all skills idk but something, make our tanking skills more usefull that just a simple raw mitigation and situational use, and how know make our tank stance improve our defensives tools.
and yeah amen for that, tank to the end.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcatica
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11-09-2016, 12:26 AMaleph_null
We can argue all day about whether carrying a few bad players (regardless of role) in normal mode is acceptable or not, but currently it's possible and I don't think it'll change anytime soon, considering the gap between the good players and the average people you find in DF, which leads to what this thread is (supposedly) discussing about: trimming the skill set of jobs and making their rotations simpler.
I believe no one likes having to take on the burden of carrying underperforming players, especially those who refuse to listen to advices to get better, but as of now I think it'd be bad if you tune normal mode raids to something that would be impossible to clear with 1-2 bad players since the success rate of DFing those would plummet significantly. Fyi even in a9s and a10s you can clear while carrying a dead dps as long as the other 7 people are competent, meanwhile my friends who RF these fights every week still see wipes due to enrage or failing dps checks (adds). I don't think tuning a9n-a12n to something of that level would be something SE would do. Personally I have accepted that normal mode raids are places where you can carry a few bad players. -
11-09-2016, 01:12 AMSarcaticaYou can say that only A12S "forces" you to put up tank stance for the tank busters if you want to avoid some buttclenching damage. Aside that, all the tank busters can be tanked without tank stance easily with the condition that you actually know when to use your CDs optimally. However you do need to discount that it's only something to attempt if you are completely sure about it. So not just anyone can replicate the aggressive tanking.Quote:
Originally Posted by shao32
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11-09-2016, 01:44 AMwhiskeybravoThat's really my only gripe on the whole argument. It's fine for veteran players who know what they are doing, my problem is the emphasis that seems to be placed on "if you aren't doing this then you're doing it wrong" which can be misleading to newer players, or cause unnecessary frustration for progression groups. I mean, would you rather spend 10 hours more on progression while your tank figures it out his cd rotation so he can drop stances or is it better to clear the content several times before you start pushing yourself and the rest of the team? It just seems to be an overlooked gray area by both sides of the argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcatica
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11-09-2016, 03:16 AMReynhartBut unless they create more content (Which they kind of hinted to at Fanfest, and that would probably displease hardcore raiders...), it means building the learning curve throughout dungeons and primals.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaulBan
There's "anyone" and "anyone". The less you'll ask to your players, the less they'll do and the less they'll try harder content...requiring a slight effort is not inconceivable.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaulBan
But being able to clear Alex Normal with almost no effort doesn't prepare you to go into Savage.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaulBan
Yes, Sophia EX is fun, with a bit of RNG, even though the RNG is mostly dependent of what you skip.Quote:
Originally Posted by DaulBan
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11-09-2016, 05:25 AMUltimatecaliburActually your examples are really bad and your statistical analysis is incredibly faulty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarcatica
First off the Grit parse is from October 4th and the no-Grit parse is from November 2nd. That is plenty of time to go from i255 to i260+ accounting a potion of the roughly 22% to 40% increase in DpS that everyone else experienced as well as part of the damage taken decrease. The no-Grit parse's dps is also inflated by an Astrologian using Balance.
Second the Grit Parse ends shortly after a huge damage spike (likely a soaked Double Scrapline) which inflated the DTPS total.
Your comparison is non-comparable for anything but the difference in 5 weeks of gearing up, fight familiarity and use of an Astrologian over a White Mage.
P.S. Looking at things a bit more it looks like you gained about a 40% increase in damage from gear, fight familiarity and Astro buffs which would put the change closer to 20% for 20%. -
11-09-2016, 06:27 AMReynhartActually considering that Grit only reduces damage by 20% and that Darkside is available whatever you do, 70% difference between Grit and non-Grit seems really really high.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
Sure, you have Blood Weapon to Dark Arts more, but still... -
11-09-2016, 07:10 AMUltimatecaliburReread what I said: Most of that 70% increase in dps is from 5 weeks of gear and an Astrologian feeding Balances to the party rather than the increase being from the difference between not being in Grit and being in Grit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
To keep it simple no Grit to Grit is 20% less damage taken for ~20% less damage dealt.
The reverse Grit to no Grit is 25% more damage taken for ~25% more damage dealt.
A 36% increase in damage from better gear and Balance buffs combined with a 25% increase in damage from going from Grit to no-Grit is a total increase of 70%. (1.36*1.25=1.7) -
11-09-2016, 07:21 AMReynhartI have read what you said and I agree with you. 70% increase can't be the result of proper stance dancing alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
What could be interesting is doing two runs with the same team, one where the tank stays in tank stance, and one where he stance dances. We'll see how much damage he takes, how much DPS he does, and how much DPS the healer loses as a tradeoff. -
11-09-2016, 11:06 AMShurrikhanAs long as the raid dps is increasing as a result though—e.g. if that extra 20% healing needed resulted in less than a 20% decrease in healer dps, or where delayed heals could cause lost dps due to hesitation among the wounded DPS—that 20% for 20% isn't necessarily an even trade. Alternatively, if the tank were already maximizing the healer's toolkit in the form of HoTs and abilities when primarily in Grit, the move to stance-dancing could theoretically cost more than 20% depending on the timing. Which would make the decision not necessarily a "choice" (if anything ever is, anyways?), but certainly context-dependent (which to me sounds about perfect).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
What remains after that point may not be a matter for rebalancing stance payoff, but rather of rebalancing healer output slightly.
Or of course, adjusting how that damage is dealt, as to reward tank-healer skill at least as well as before while making the tank stance slightly more lucrative.
That said, were one to have dropped Grit the entire fight, the difference would be larger than just the removal of the damage penalty. You would need to also account for Blood Weapon's mana generation (associated spenders) and slightly increased attack speed, (higher hpm and associated rotational/speed plateaus during and sync thereafter), which would have a further, if small, positive effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
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11-09-2016, 11:14 AMSarcaticaI am pointing this out because primarily this is what most of the team deal with, comparing to the better parse ofc. Double Scrapline is not meant to be soaked, has nothing to do with DTPS. You can't bunch fight familiarity with Astro buffs because that's part of the fight and not because you decide to bring AST that your execution becomes great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
I agree that this comparison is flawed by its nature due to the gear upgrades and growth as a team, I do not have the sufficient data to actually compare parses with me being the only variance, because I do need to parse more runs to get a reliable comparison (and my team probably isn't keen to keep running the same fight just because I want to gather data). However a point was brought to the table that optimized runs is basically on how skilled you are AND how good is your team to plan out the fights as a group, even to the smallest things like movements, defensive CDs run down to the healers, etc. -
11-09-2016, 11:22 AMUltimatecaliburSorry about being defensive. To many dislike when flaws in their reasoning are pointed out and I jump at your reply without fully reading it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Yeah that would be the best way to see the actual difference in DpS and DTpS.Quote:
What could be interesting is doing two runs with the same team, one where the tank stays in tank stance, and one where he stance dances. We'll see how much damage he takes, how much DPS he does, and how much DPS the healer loses as a tradeoff.
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11-09-2016, 11:23 AMBrian_Yea, they're raids. And, trials are trials. At the end-game, Both are 8 man content. Just because a raid isn't savage difficulty doesn't mean it's not a raid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Except he explicitly said that it's not a choice for early prog. You tried to argue that healer ACC was a "vision raiders try to enforce." Yoshida flat out says it wasn't raiders that made ACC mandatory, it was the devs by tuning content to require healer DPS in early prog. When the choice is between clearing the content and not clearing the content, it's not a choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Clear as the sky on a cloudless day.Quote:
Yesterday, I ended with a PLD main tank that only spammed RoH throughout all of A11...it was really sad. But, now, let's imagine something. His WS rotation was extremely bad, but we still won the fight. Do you think he learned anything from that ?
Now, if the WS rotation was part of your tanking capabilities (i.e, generating enough enmity and mitigating damage), he would have died...and we would probably have lost.
Yes, it's a pain to lose a fight, but when it comes to the playerbase, it's better to lose one fight because the MT tank can't be carried that letting bad tanks clear even that kind of content.
No, I think in NM, 2 elite tanks and 2 elite healers could still carry 4 DPS doing horrendous DPS. Those 4 could comfortably combine for 4k+ DPS. But, that's really beside the point since as other people have pointed out, equating 4 DPS to 1 tank is a false equivalency to begin with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
Really, you have this strange elitism and arrogance. On one hand, you criticize people good enough at this game to clear the hardest content as blind when we use facts and logic to prove you have your head stuck up your butt. On the other hand, you want to prevent huge swaths of players from experiencing an NM raid because they aren't up to your standards.
Casuals are the majority and they fuel this game. They pay the same sub anyone else does and they deserve to have proportionate representation in content creation.
I never said the difficulty distribution was fine. I said it was better than the garbage you are proposing. If you want to teach someone to raid, then give them a progressive raiding pathway. Alex NM is fine. It's good that more people can experience the content and there needs to be easy 8-man content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
The problem is the lack of new mid-level 8-man content like Sophia EX (though A9S and A10S are probably easy enough to be considered mid-level content) and the lack of a proper incentive to revisit old 8-man content like Sephirot and Nidhogg EX which are probably still hard enough to be considered mid-level content for a lot of people. The problem is not that dungeons don't filter into raid progression. If someone wants to raid, then let them raid and learn through raiding. -
11-09-2016, 02:13 PMUltimatecaliburQuote:
Originally Posted by Sarcatica
My point is that your comparison does not work because you inflated the compared numbers. A 70% gain in damage dealt for a 17% increase in damage taken says something completely different than a 25% increase in damage dealt for a 25% increase in damage taken.
Astrologian, Ninjas, Machinists and (to a limited extent) Dragoons all can warp fflog parses as they can increase the dps of other members of the party based on their use of buffs. Most of the top parses in the fflogs have been boosted by Astrologians feeding Balances to players (not saying they did in yours as all Balances appear to be Balance + Spreads effecting all members). Due to this when comparing fflogs you actually need to look at the class compositions involved. The Dark Knight in a War/Drk/Whm/Sch/Mnk/Drg/Brd/Blm comp is going to have different numbers than the Dark Knight in a War/Drk/Ast/Whm/DrG/Nin/Mch/Smn comp due to the dps boosts from the other party members even if they did the exact same things and the server feed them the exact same random numbers.
You need two identical comps for the numbers to be mostly comparable and to also check and see how "lucky" each group got. -
11-09-2016, 11:09 PMLilLemayThis is infact entirely possible, I did regular a12 with three of my static member (ot, and my two healers) and we alone accounted for about 65% of the dpsQuote:
Originally Posted by Brian_
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11-09-2016, 11:11 PMLythYou don't need to compare two different attempts to understand the defensive trade-off. You just need one. The vast majority of the damage in A9S comes from autos, with intermittent damage spikes from Scrap cleaves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
Autos hit for about 6k without Grit. You would have mitigated about 1.2k by being in Grit. The numbers are actually quite similar between the two runs if you calculate what Grit's contribution is in each case. The big difference between the runs is the number of autos received: 63 in the faster run, and 95 in the slower one.
It's a similar story for Scrap: you take 8k without Grit, and mitigate 2k by being in Grit. The difference again is that the faster attempt only sees half the number of cleaves as the slow one. It's worth noting that the upper bound damage for Scrap is about 10k without Grit, which is important for both you and your healer to gauge what the minimum safe threshold is before intervening.
I'm not really sure where you got the idea of the "probable"(?) soaked Double Scrapline from. You can directly check.
Damage Taken Per Second is not particularly useful here. Damage occurs at very discrete intervals, as does healing. The difference in damage taken with or without Grit is only relevant if it forces an additional heal or if it results in a death that could not have otherwise occurred. A 2k difference gets swept up in a Regen tick, and we're looking at max HP in the 32-34k range.
Turning off Grit is more than a 25% dps increase for a couple reasons. First, you have access to BW, which influences both CPM and available MP, both of which directly translate into dps. Second, as the raid encounter time drops, you spend more time in your opening burst. Even if you could keep all other external factors constant (i.e. party comp, buff/debuff uptime, proc and crit rates for all players), this second point is something that you can't control for. Clearing more efficiently will "inflate" your dps significantly. And even if it was only a 25% boost ("only" being more powerful than a permanent RS or Balance): why give yourself a dps penalty needlessly? -
11-09-2016, 11:37 PMReynhartBut you can't realistically put that only on the tank stance dancing. The whole party did better, wether it's from experience, gear or composition, and they all contributed to the faster kill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
That's why a test should be made within two runs of the same team where the only (player-induced) variable is "stance dancing or not".
If you end with 63 autos in the fastest run and 70 in the slowest, it's not that big. (Numbers only here as an example)
The point is not really why you should give yourself a penalty, but instead "Why you should put that much pressure on DPS optimization for tanks if the difference is not that important ?" Unless of course, you're doing a Savage race...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
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11-09-2016, 11:50 PMLyth
Yes, the difference isn't entirely due to tanking out of Grit. But realistically, you can't really construct the sort of experiment that you're suggesting, because of the reasons that I outlined above. Nor do you need to, to understand the benefits.
Actually, that was pretty much exactly my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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11-10-2016, 12:03 AMReynhartI wasn't talking about your point...but the point of putting that much emphasis on tank DPS...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
We understand the benefit, but some of us feel that its importance really went through the roof. And in this game, where each time a suggestion is made, people always tend to extrapolate on how terribly it could break the game, it would be a good thing to properly judge the scale of a new "strat".Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
That was the same wth the Novus weapon where people were easy to spit on every relic that wasn't "Det/Crit", when in the end, even having full parry didn't change your numbers much...while costing waaaaaay less.
Is it really worth it, as a mentality, to work twice as hard for only a small performance increase ? And I'm not talking about clearly lacking skill in the most basic rotation like those frequently referenced "500 DPS tank"... -
11-11-2016, 02:29 AMInstrumentalityUnequivocally yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
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11-15-2016, 07:50 PMReynhartFor you...Quote:
Originally Posted by Instrumentality
In the end, the impact you have is far smaller than the effort you agreed to make. -
11-15-2016, 10:36 PMshao32
well this is from the last yoshida interview.
Even when you fight alone, there are almost no ocassions where feather foot changes your fate of living or dying. Of course there will be people who say "But i use it when i solo! Don't take away a characteristic from our job", but if we add more actions/abilities, these kinds of actions will get removed from players' hotbars anyway. So we will delete and add new actions instead or leave the name of the action and change what it does to give it more meaning. Another example is the warrior's wrath and abandon stacks where they will both be united to one gauge called "Origin（原初)" (Note: the name of this new stack will be totally different in the En version because most of the names of the warrior moves in the japanese client share the word "origin". For example, inner beast is Soul of the origin(原初の魂）, Raw intuiition is Instinct of the origin (原初の直感) and the LB3 for warrior is Land of the origin(原初の大地) and that's why Yoshida called the new stack for both stances "origin(原初) stacks " ). Warriors will manage this new gauge for both stances and decide what to use each of them on.
On additional skills, there isn't much but considering how tank stances will work with the adjustment that will come in the future. Yoshida is still thinking of how to address the problems of stance switching on additional skills right now. However the adjustments does not influence nor change the battle content itself, as they are created through formula calculations, and other factors. Not all skills from the specific roles itself will be shared as some skills that are job specific only will still exist. (EDIT: The fuck did I misread it as "shaping the outcome of the battle itself...")
complete here: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ida_after_nas/ -
11-15-2016, 11:02 PMLyth
For reference, the phrase "Additional Skills" is used throughout the text to denote "Cross-Class" skills. This article is a literal translation, so be careful to read everything in context.
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11-15-2016, 11:06 PMSarcatica
The interview pretty much makes it clear that the skill cap should be the same or close to it. So whatever adjustments SE makes, they should fall on somewhat the same page which just screams "git gud" to me, unless if of course they change their minds suddenly.
"-Some of the Devs have suggested a "Hall of the Intermediate" that goes over basic skill rotations and such, fit for people going to EX primals. At first Yoshida was thinking no, because it would be telling players "If you're not good, its bad" but recently he's warmed up to the idea a little bit."
This caught my eye. more "git gud". Overall I would expect more people feeling frustrated and start to get more invested on being better players which is the best scenario IMO. -
11-16-2016, 04:05 AMShurrikhanJust makes you wonder: why they didn't include Wrath stacks as a Warrior level 30 trait in the first place if they ultimately wanted shared stacks with or without Defiance and without any added identity in the form of a second stance, and why they think it'd simplify anything to call the two stack forms by the same name; if anything it just reduces one indicator of which stack you're in.Quote:
Originally Posted by shao32
Still not sure what influence stance switching would have on additional skills, at least as they are now. What would it matter if you Featherfoot, Awareness, etc., in Deliverance instead of Defiance, directly speaking? -
11-16-2016, 04:06 AMShurrikhanIsn't that the way tapering skill cap works? As with quality vs. cost, effort tends to increase more exponentially for more linear gains in output.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reynhart
For better or worse, that's been a targeted design methodology in many a game, right alongside "easy to learn, difficult to master". -
11-16-2016, 06:36 AMUltimatecaliburSomething that was left out of shao32's quote of the interview is that they are going to add UI elements that make it easier to track various "core" abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
The one example was the Monk having 3 orbs somewhere on the screen to represent Greased Lightning. Another was a UI element that would show when Darkside was active.
It is full likely that each tank will have a UI element that tell the player which stance (if any) they are currently in and other UI element actions to help track things like "Origin" (Wrath/Abandon) stacks without having to look at a small buff marker. -
11-16-2016, 06:50 AMShurrikhanThat much sounds pretty good, though I'm faintly wary of poor art assets and screen clutter. (No more so than with any added skill and its associated effects, though, of course.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
Off-topic: "Origin"? Really? I mean, at least it's not bastardized German or English this time, but... what is the lore to that? (Yes I saw Shao's post.) -
11-16-2016, 06:59 AMUltimatecaliburTaken from the reddit post:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan
Quote:
Note: the name of this new stack will be totally different in the En version because most of the names of the warrior moves in the japanese client share the word "origin". For example, inner beast is Soul of the origin(原初の魂）, Raw intuiition is Instinct of the origin (原初の直感) and the LB3 for warrior is Land of the origin(原初の大地) and that's why Yoshida called the new stack for both stances "origin(原初) stacks "
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11-16-2016, 07:02 AMshao32
well some say they go to remove parry and acc, so unify wrath stacks in to one type looks like they go to to that on parry at least, or make it a stat you alwais have in the gear, the other question about WARs in that change is ¿they go to let WARs do inner beast and steel ciclone out of defiance or its just "meh crit bonus on both stances"?
i just quote the tank references there, the UI elements looks nice, ¿meaby dark flames around my hotbars? i really love that, but i hope in 4.0 whe get a proper darside effect on out fellow dark walkers ;p
pd; the note about the "origin" name is on the quote too, please read carefully ^^ -
11-16-2016, 10:38 AMSarcaticaNot just in many games, it also applies to real life skills. Great surgeon not necessarily have 200% more skill than normal surgeons but the small things add up that distinguish the person to be a great one. Honestly it's the same principle for anything, generally speaking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shurrikhan