Stop Giving the "Need" Command for Drop Gear in Dungeons to Higher Geared Players!

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Originally Posted by Serilda

I feel it goes both ways. On one hand, you'll never have so many rivals to contend with as a healer or tank. On the other, since all healers/tanks share dropped gear, you have a higher chance of needing to out-Need the other healer/tank in every run you do for 8-man+ content (ignore tanks if it's a single tank instance), whereas it's entirely possible to be the only caster/ranged physical DPS etc in an entire run at times and get your pick of the loot every time it appears while four Monks fight over their allocation. I usually end up completing my BLM 8-man glamour sets before my WHM sets.

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Yeah that's a fair observation, one I could conceed tbh ^^

Again can't adjust loot rules just for roles/jobs more popular than others. Means those on the least played end of the scale would get screwed over royally. I'm talking about DPS specifically here ofc since certain roles in the group as dps are much more popular then others.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

Can't really adjust loot to different roles neither can you give a better chance of getting x loot to more popular jobs at the expense of those who enjoy playing the less popular ones. It's just something people need to accept if they chose to play a job that is commonly played across the playerbase.

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Agreed, it's a case of dealwithit.gif

Although, I did specifically mention junk loot :) As in drops which won't ever be worn and will just be turned in for GC seals or whatever. Role doesn't really matter in that case.

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Originally Posted by Cordie

Glad to see we reach an agreement: Enable the "Need" button for all loot and for everyone in the party irrespective of job/class.



Since you are opting for a sub-par method for your own needs (seals etc), why are you so concerned with the utility of that method to others?
I don't see how any of the alternatives you proposed devalues others' claims against your "need". You may as well consider an alternative before demanding others to adjust.

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Wut? There is no agreement. If you read my post you would understand that. You would also understand that my multitasking is not subpar.
Now my alternative method that i proposed, shows you how to actually gear up. Not only is it a fast efficient way to gear up. It also minimizes the reliance on others passing for your gear, because you are actually going as that class and the gear is restricted to weekly rolls and tome gear.

And once again you didn't answer any questions

To reply to the original post, if you really want a piece of equipment ask the party if you can have it. In my experiences usually if you simply ask they'll be happy to pass on it or let you know they need it too. The other thing is they COULD need that piece. It could be for a retainer to gear them up or maybe the piece simply adds better stats than what they have in that slot. For example, some ranged gear has stats better suited for Bard over Machinist or vice versa. Other times a piece of gear may be tailored for a specific set. Not all gear is created equal and when you mish-mash pieces of equipment together from different sets it can offset your overall stats. Like a hat from one armor set may prioritize Critical Hit over Determination but the user's existing gear setup makes them a bit too lacking in one area because of it. Therefore they may need that piece to even out their stats a bit, at least until they can afford to get an entire set of augmented shire gear.

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Originally Posted by Squigley

Agreed, it's a case of dealwithit.gif

Although, I did specifically mention junk loot :) As in drops which won't ever be worn and will just be turned in for GC seals or whatever. Role doesn't really matter in that case.

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Which cannot be quantified.

One mans trash can be another mans treasure afterall ^^

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Originally Posted by Squigley

Agreed, it's a case of dealwithit.gif

Although, I did specifically mention junk loot :) As in drops which won't ever be worn and will just be turned in for GC seals or whatever. Role doesn't really matter in that case.

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But now the issue here is who decides what's more important. If you're gearing up, GC seals might look like junk to you. But someone who is running dungeons just to get seals and/or glamour give the item the same value as you do for the stats. There are many options for gears as there are many option for seal exchange (although not for specific glamour pieces) so it's not like stats weight would have more value.

I have a feeling that some forgot that the OP is not talking about is main class but about gearing up another one. So can someone that wants people to stop rolling on need on their right class please explain why someone that does not even use the class as a main has more of a right to a loot than someone else? They dont need that class to do the content since they still have their main class for it and if they somehow still want to use the second one they have more than enough possibilities to gear up. (And to be truthful..someone that wont play the second class because they feel like they are not good enough first need some training in lower dungeons anyway..or it shows that they barely play it..so why the need?)

And the solution of having everyone being able to need or greed is bad for everyone..I could already see OP and others coming into this forum and complaining that they now wont even get the necessary gear on their main class because they lose the roll against three others.

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Originally Posted by Squigley

This is still going on? Wow.

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^
This.

Also thank you Squigley and everybody else who didn't think my idea was silly. I really have no comments anymore for this thread as Squigley was right, there isn't really a need to say anything about this on a forum who's questions or complaints won't be heard. Like many people with the drop system, I deal with what's handed in front of me with no problems, sometimes I even laugh about it and take it as a challenge to try to get what I need! But sometimes, when those times come up where I keep getting unlucky none stop because a higher lvl player has to Need on something they won't be using beside what many people said here (glamour, GCs, etc) it just makes me really frustrated and I thought I should at least say something about it and hopefully get someone in the development to notice to at least make the drop rate a little more fair to those still leveling up their Job classes' gear like myself. But again as Squigley said, there was really no point to talk about this in a forum where nobody is really heard.

...Hmm, well that's all I got, so have a good day and have fun playing the game! Bye~ :D

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Originally Posted by Kit-Kat

But now the issue here is who decides what's more important. If you're gearing up, GC seals might look like junk to you. But someone who is running dungeons just to get seals and/or glamour give the item the same value as you do for the stats. There are many options for gears as there are many option for seal exchange (although not for specific glamour pieces) so it's not like stats weight would have more value.

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I do understand that different people value different things. That's one of the reasons why I think that the whole group greeding on non-stat improving drops is fair. But the fact is that stats and ilvl is how you progress in this game. iLvl unlocks content and stats beat dps checks (although if you're basing your progress on dungeon drops you're kinda doing it wrong).

I haven't read all 25 pages on here so it could be it has been brought up before, but the unwritten rule seems to have changed in the last year or so on this game.

Some while ago people wouldn't roll need on gear if they were obviously better geared so that everyone in the group had an equal shot at getting items. It was considered being nice to other players, upholding that FFXIV community spirit that we all were so proud of before ("It's not like WoW on here"). That mindset seemed to have ruled supreme until more recent times.

The game mechanics allow you to hoard the things all for yourself, so tough luck for the others, right? Wrong! We ALL need GC seals, desynthing and gil in general. Being nice is an actual conscious choice to make, just like being selfish is. It's just that it's a hell of a lot easier to be selfish, especially behind a monitor. However, the truth is people aren't born nice or nasty, they're making these choices actively, day in day out. Nice people also have selfish thoughts, but they actively chose not to act upon them for the sake of the greater good. And you know why? Because shit gets done when communities get united and we don't cheese out others of stuff just because we can. The world doesn't revolve around our individual selfs, but we're all pieces of a bigger whole and cannot succeed without others. So the arguments "I need it for these things" and "game mechanics allow me, so too bad" seem pretty moot if you ask me because we all need that stuff. Let's be honest, we all just want to justify being selfish, we all want to stop thinking of others constantly. Problem is that while genetically we're inclined to think of our individual selfs first, survival of the fittest after all, by doing so in this manner we decline the entire community as a whole and in the end, ourselves. Be it morally or physically, it will be snowballing out of control.

Bottom line, let's just default to greeding everything you see to give everyone a fair (<keyword) shot. Let's try to make this community better again together, yeah? Sure you'll run into people who aren't aware yet of anything past their own PoV and indeed as plenty have already opted on the previous pages, talking is the key in the end. I'll be sure to do my part and try to positively reinforce if I see people greed instead of need so that we're not normalizing ethical comprimise on these subjects.

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Originally Posted by Valenth

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This is what I can't stand... Self righteous preaching based on nothing but a self inlfated sense of someone's own morals.

I find there is nothing wrong with needing on gear you have use of for any reason, you have zero right to call that selfish or self absorbed since I say that's the same for everyone not just myself.

Careful getting off that horse... looks like it'll be a long way down.

I need GC seals, and I need desynth levels.
Therefore I need the gear just as much as you do.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

Seen it and it convieniently ignores the loot rules in regard to 8man and 24man content.

Therefore it is useless and skewed.

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And rather than calculating it you sit there whining.

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Originally Posted by Squigley

How do the percentages go in 8 or 24 content?

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Update

Probability of getting an item after rolling "Need" in a light party and full party (1tank-2healers-5dps) with any composition:

http://i.imgur.com/HZ4sTlM.jpg

(fixed a typo in my first formula too - don't expect any miracles though)
[EDIT: just double-checked in Python, 9.5% for NIN/BRD/MCH accessories in the full-party case is actually 9.3%, and I can't find what's wrong with Excel there huh...]

Compare: greed-only rule gives a flat 25% for light party, 12.5% for full.

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

Wut? There is no agreement. If you read my post you would understand that.

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Let's see:

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

I roll on everything.

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Originally Posted by Cordie

Then you should be happy if the "need" button is unlocked for everyone: you can roll need on other roles' items too.

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It seems quite obvious to me. You also ignored it to drag the issue off-topic ("how to gear-up your class", as if it would prioritize you roll over others').

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

You would also understand that my multitasking is not subpar.

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Honestly, anything less than 800-1000 seals per minute is a net loss, if you are really farming seals. Tome caps are too easy to achieve anyways.

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

Now my alternative method that i proposed, shows you how to actually gear up. Not only is it a fast efficient way to gear up. It also minimizes the reliance on others passing for your gear, because you are actually going as that class and the gear is restricted to weekly rolls and tome gear.

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This is all fine and tangential to the topic, and perhaps better suited for a different thread (I've seen some asking about ways to gear up; this is not one of them).

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

This is what I can't stand... Self righteous preaching based on nothing but a self inlfated sense of someone's own morals.

I find there is nothing wrong with needing on gear you have use of for any reason, you have zero right to call that selfish or self absorbed since I say that's the same for everyone not just myself.

Careful getting off that horse... looks like it'll be a long way down.

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Then you and I differ in opinion on the subject. I find needing on gear without notifying/asking/etc for anything else but to increase one's direct combat performance snatching away fairness. I'm fairly sure you've had some bad series of run-ins with RNGezus in your life as well, being frustrated because of it at times. If I can prevent someone from having that happen to them, something I wouldn't enjoy happening to me either, then why would I not do it? Why would I snatch away and claim the chance for all in the group to have an equal shot? Call me self-righteous if you want, but that's how I feel about it.

And no need to think I'm on a horse. Should I run into you in a dungeon, you'll find that I'm walking right next to you with both feet on the ground, giving you a fair shot on loot should DRG stuff drop.

If you are playing well enough for me to comm you. And you ask could I have any XXX job gear. I will often pass on Need gear.
If your a ass hole about it and aren't playing good I will need my gear for GC points.

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Originally Posted by Valenth

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Everyone in the group has an equal shot on the drop. If it doesn't drop for their job then tough cookie..

not like I can need on the aiming chest and then immediatly need on the healer gloves that drop straight after (which the healer will likely also need). You may like taking zero precautions as to your own self development but some of us are more proactive than that and realise everyone already has exactly the same chance.

Those of you who chose not to take yours for your own self esteem have that as your own problem. It's not a rule for the rest of us... We are all bound by the rule we've been given not the one you say we should impose based on nothing since everyone already does have an equal chance.

Well that's your own fault coz I would take it (if I won the roll) and not thank you for doing it either... Will likely just think you missed your opportuinity for no reason. Wouldn't bat an eye if you needed on it either... So who would you really be helping in this secnario? Just seems to be pointless.

Also if someone really wants a piece of gear why don't they have the need option available? Who took that away from them? Oh thats right... themselves.

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Originally Posted by Cordie

And rather than calculating it you sit there whining.




Update

Probability of getting an item after rolling "Need" in a light party and full party (1tank-2healers-5dps) with any composition:

http://i.imgur.com/HZ4sTlM.jpg

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Shouldn't PLD, WAR, DRK, WHM, SCH and AST get 100% the item after rolling Need in a light party?

Try asking politely.

Was in stone vigil yesterday leveling my alt, first drop was rolled on by the lvl 60 whm - after this I asked if they minded passing on INT gear, and in exchange I'd pass all other gear that dropped that I couldn't need on. They said sure, and that they'd needed out of habit :) something which I frankly can sympathize with, having done it myself multiple times before.

This will probably not always work, as people have various reasons for why they could roll need on a piece of gear - maybe they're running a dungeon on their lvl60 tank but actually want some gear to gear their OTHER tanks? In any case, taking away people's choice of needing a piece of gear is, imho, not a very good idea and will only serve to increase people's apathy toward leveling roulette.

Another thing, considering how gear in this game is practically thrown in your face without you even asking, I don't see why this would e necessary at all. Side quests, main story quests, region vendors - all of these are sources for white gear. While it's true that stat-wise white gear is inferior to dungeon drops, you're leveling and said gear would be outdated in a couple of days anyway, and in lower level dungeons the difference simply won't be very noticeable, I think.

tl;dr loot rules are fine as they are :)

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Originally Posted by Cordie

http://i.imgur.com/HZ4sTlM.jpg

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This chart is all sorts of irrelevant.

Here are the things it doesn't take into account.

Healers get faster queues in 8 man content with 1 tank, 1 tank queues suck for 8 man content. the difference in the odds make up for that difference.

Yes, it's 100% that you have 2 healers in 8 man DF groups, and it's not 100% that you will have two BRD/MCH but it's also very likely that the healer has the piece you want so you're still rolling Need unopposed. and this gets more and more true the later you are into a patch cycle.

Tanks and Healers have more stress, when they get better queue times and better rates for stuff it's because they are willing to take the extra responsibility.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

Everyone in the group has an equal shot on the drop.
[...]
Those of you who chose not to take yours for your own self esteem have that as your own problem. It's not a rule for the rest of us... We are all bound by the rule we've been given not the one you say we should impose based on nothing since everyone already does have an equal chance.

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Check the numbers before babbling.

http://i.imgur.com/HZ4sTlM.jpg

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

Also if someone really wants a piece of gear why don't they have the need option available? Who took that away from them? Oh thats right... themselves.

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tanks can only roll need on tank gear (VIT/STR)
healers can only roll need on healer gear (MND)
MNK can roll need on striking/slaying (STR)
DRG can roll need on maiming/slaying (STR)
NIN can roll need on scouting/aiming (DEX)
BRD/MCH can roll need on aiming (DEX)
BLM/SMN can only roll need on casting (INT)

It is insanely more restricted than you claim. Therefore, my proposal:
Enable the Need button for everyone and for every item, irrespective of class/job/role.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

This chart is all sorts of irrelevant.

Here are the things it doesn't take into account.

Healers get faster queues in 8 man content with 1 tank, 1 tank queues suck for 8 man content. the difference in the odds make up for that difference.

Yes, it's 100% that you have 2 healers in 8 man DF groups, and it's not 100% that you will have two BRD/MCH but it's also very likely that the healer has the piece you want so you're still rolling Need unopposed. and this gets more and more true the later you are into a patch cycle.

Tanks and Healers have more stress, when they get better queue times and better rates for stuff it's because they are willing to take the extra responsibility.

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SLOPPYYYY
Read the title first.

It takes everything into account. Whether X has Y item and will not roll again is not known to you, and you have no valid or credible reason to expect so.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

and neither is whether a healer piece will drop at all. it's part of the range that the chart doesn't care about.

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It is all there.
The only assumption is a 1/(number of players allowed to need) probability of winning a lot, to ensure maximum uncertainty.

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Originally Posted by Cordie

It takes everything into account. Whether X has Y item and will not roll again is not known to you, and you have no valid or credible reason to expect so.

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and neither is whether a healer piece will drop at all. it's part of the range that the chart doesn't care about.

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Originally Posted by Cordie

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Originally Posted by Cordie

Then you should be happy if the "need" button is unlocked for everyone: you can roll need on other roles' items too.

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

I roll on everything.

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I think you need to re-label the chart to be specific in the fact that your percentages factor in a hypothetically equal drop chance first before the ability to need is factored in.

Second, bardaboo rolling on everything does NOT mean there is agreement with your suggestion to dress up the OP's request as everyone can Need. Your are twisting words to fit your logic. If I were to roll Greed on everything I can't Need, it means I'd like the gear if the person who it is designed for doesn't want it, not that I think all gear should be equally Needable. You basically tried to compare apples and oranges.

To reiterate my initial response to the thread:

The system is designed to give someone who chooses to undertake a specific class/role priority access to gear useable by that class/role as a reward for choosing to undertake that class/role.

A tangential bonus to that is the increase in players on tank and healer roles when they are hunting for gear related to that role, improving (if only slightly) the abysmal DPS queues. I won't claim it's some huge godsend of an improvement, but when people truly want something, they'll actually put the effort in to get it (unless they like whining and pouting, then they will get nothing done until they get over it and put in effort).

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Originally Posted by Felis

Shouldn't PLD, WAR, DRK, WHM, SCH and AST get 100% the item after rolling Need in a light party?

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You are essentially asking: "Shouldn't they get 100% after getting the item?"

You need to factor in the probability of seeing an item:
there are 7 types of left-side gear and 5 types of accessories.

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Originally Posted by Bloody

I think you need to re-label the chart to be specific in the fact that your percentages factor in a hypothetically equal drop chance first before the ability to need is factored in.

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Why would you assume otherwise? Go in blind, this is what to expect.
"After" rolling need , because you need to account for others potentially rolling need.
If the item type doesn't appear you will get null when "rolling need" (you can't even roll as a matter of fact).

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Originally Posted by Bloody

Second, bardaboo rolling on everything does NOT mean there is agreement with your suggestion to dress up the OP's request as everyone can Need. Your attempts to twist words to fit your logic need some work. If I were to roll Greed on everything I can't Need, it means I'd like the gear if the person who it is designed for doesn't want it, not that I think all gear should be equally Needable. You basically tried to compare apples and oranges.

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It's not dressing-up the OP's request. It's a suggestion satisfying both sides.
If you were to roll Greed on everything you can't Need you have a priori given up on the thought of all gear being equally Needable. There's no comparison for you there.

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Originally Posted by Bloody

The system is designed to give someone who chooses to undertake a specific class/role priority access to gear useable by that class/role as a reward for choosing to undertake that class/role.

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And it is skewed.

Yeah. I roll need on everything i can. But i don't wine about not being able to roll need on everything. When i roll need i know it's a guarantee.
And again. "Net loss" gc seals are a bonus on top of the tomes. I'm not running the dungeons specifically for tomes. It's called multitasking.

""It seems quite obvious to me. You also ignored it to drag the issue off-topic ("how to gear-up your class", as if it would prioritize you roll over others').

Honestly, anything less than 800-1000 seals per minute is a net loss, if you are really farming seals. Tome caps are too easy to achieve anyways.

This is all fine and tangential to the topic, and perhaps better suited for a different thread (I've seen some asking about ways to gear up; this is not one of them).[/QUOTE]

Once again NO ANSWER from you on why you need i245 gear. I ignored nothing
If my way of gearing up isn't optimal i don't know how you think gearing up in 245 dungeon gear is better. Like seriously i think one of us ignored that burned toast smell for far too long.
you take everything out of context, avoid direct questions and probably think that if i stop trying to talk you'll "win"

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

"Net loss" gc seals are a bonus on top of the tomes. I'm not running the dungeons specifically for tomes. It's called multitasking.
[...]
I ignored nothing
If my way of gearing up isn't optimal i don't know how you think gearing up in 245 dungeon gear is better. Like seriously i think one of us ignored that burned toast smell for far too long.

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It's not multitasking, it's getting less over time by choice. I don't care much if you want a 2x slower (at best) progress in seal farming, but if you insist on pushing others to what you consider the most time-efficient way of gearing a class/job so they don't roll against your seal "need", you would profit more by farming seals faster.

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

Once again NO ANSWER from you on why you need i245 gear.
[...]
you [...] avoid direct questions [...]

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Same reason you do + gearing off-classes/jobs + desynth + glam.
Why would you assume any less? Because not being an a**hole to others implies needs of a lesser importance?

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

you take everything out of context, [...] and probably think that if i stop trying to talk you'll "win"

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Originally Posted by bardaboo

Yeah. I roll need on everything i can. But i don't wine about not being able to roll need on everything. When i roll need i know it's a guarantee.

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Finding a reference out of context in my posts will be a challenge, but you're welcome to try.

I think you would lose nothing with my win:
Enable "Need" option for all, and for all items, regardless of role/job/class.
More for you to "need" on, if anything! If you want to prioritize all party members' needs for that "guaranteed" roll, you may use the party chat as others have suggested.

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Originally Posted by Underdog2204

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Statistically taken over 1000 or maybe 10000 runs you're right of course, everybody should get roughly an equal amount of drops. But as I said before, there is this one guy in the world (well maybe a few) that has the worst luck ever and doesn't get a job-drop for five days straight. Or in my case, back when HW launched and I tried to get my tank boots from The Vault and it didn't drop for me in 47 runs. I had however given up on them eventually and they dropped on the run after when I did on my Dragoon. I cursed the Twelve for playing such a trick on me, but you know what? The tank that run told me "I'd like them too, but I'll greed on it so we both have a shot, okay?" and I got the boots. You can imagine how happy I was with that guy's kindness and it inspired me to do the same. I'd like to prevent the hefty frustration that may come from situations such as that by making drops for my own class greeded if they aren't a direct upgrade to my current gear.

You implied twice now I do it for my self-esteem. If you're trying to shame me for liking to see my fellow players happy (like the tank that day made me happy) and thus far more engaging in every aspect of social interaction, I'm afraid I'll disappoint you. Do I do it to feel happier? Heck yes! Do I do it because lifting others up in a more fair way contributes to a better life for us all (yours included)? Absolutely! I'm not ashamed at all to say that makes me feel more alive and that my life all together has a higher quality because of it. Of course I do it for my self-esteem, as a member of the human race! We all feel better when others are happier around us. We enjoy giving gifts more than receiving them.

You say you're taking precautions to your own self-development as well. All these things combined lead me to believe you've been taken on a few too many trips to Brown Town (if you'll excuse the nastiness there) and have become pessimistic/mistrusting as a result. The point that drives it home for me is that in the two responses you've given you're focussing a lot on yourself, your PoV, you. Thing is, as I said before, the world with this virtual one included, is about more than you. Gosh, I really loved that Dr. Strange movie for driving that point home as a recent example. Anyway, I'm sorry you don't seem to have run into people such as that tank stranger was to me. Yet.

To your next point: if you'd get the gear because I greeded instead of needed... wouldn't I have helped you? You may find it pointless on a personal PoV, but doesn't this contradict your point as to how you are now being even more able for your 'self development'? ;) You're happier, you get to do your things a tad easier, that's the point for me. However, I'll greed on it instead of passing on it all together. I'm not a complete exploitable idiot like that, lol. You can protect yourself while being kind! And no, when you get a drop because I greeded and not needed I do not expect you to thank me on your hands and knees (or at all really). Knowing you'll make good use of it, and I hope as a result grow happier, is enough for me. Maybe you call that self-righteous, but it works for me and nothing you've said so far has made me even reconsider that point.

However! If you could come up with a rational explanation how this behaviour of mine might actually harm the community as a whole (think Darth Traya's story to Revan on giving a beggar money) rather than emotional arguments and opinions you have without much constructive build-up, then I could very well change my PoV on the issue and actually support your cause. Otherwise we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I await your constructive reply. :)

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Originally Posted by Cordie

It's not multitasking, it's getting less over time by choice. I don't care much if you want a 2x slower (at best) progress in seal farming, but if you insist on pushing others to what you consider the most time-efficient way of gearing a class/job so they don't roll against your seal "need", you would profit more by farming seals faster.

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It is multitasking. I never said I'm running dungeons only for gc seals. I am running it for lore, scrip tomes, gc seals, glam, off classes.

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Originally Posted by Valenth

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I'm not going to speak for Underdog, of course, but if I had to venture a guess as to what might rub someone the wrong way about what you've said on this topic:

It's not so much the idea that YOU greed on things you could need on, because you feel you don't "truly" need it and someone else might. Obviously that behavior doesn't negatively impact anyone else, and hey, you do you.

Rather, the sticking point is the tone you adopted in your original post a couple pages back that (not very) subtly suggested that your way was the moral high road, was some kind of Lost Art of Kindness from yon olden days, and that simply rolling need if you happen to be on the right class, because there's some gear up for rolling that you really "want" but don't "need" for stat upgrades, is selfish. Especially since many people in the thread have already said that they will roll need for all kinds of reasons, from glamour to seals, BUT that if someone else in the party simply asks if they can have the item because it'd be an actual stat upgrade for their class, or even for an alt class, then they'll gladly let them. Honestly, Underdog's reply to it may have been extremely blunt, but that post was pretty high-horse-ish, with the talk of genetics and unavoidable implications that not rolling Need is the "heroic" path.

And for the record, I have observed no such shift in how people view rolling need vs. greed. Since 2.0 launched, this very thread is the first time I've seen it suggested that anything OTHER than "everyone just rolls on what they want to roll on, unless someone requests that a certain drop be given to them" should be the norm. Could be a server/data center thing, I dunno.

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Originally Posted by SendohJin

and neither is whether a healer piece will drop at all. it's part of the range that the chart doesn't care about.

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J : total number of jobs in the role
S : number of slots for the role
Jn : number of jobs that can need on the item type
Sn : number of slots occupied by jobs that can need on the item type
N : number of item types

calculation as follows:

Jn < J :
http://i.imgur.com/KmDWhBh.gif

Jn = J :
(SnN)⁻¹

If you think you can do a better job, go ahead.


edit: sleepy and making copy/paste mistakes ughh
edit#2: adding simplified case for tanks/healers

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Originally Posted by Cordie

snip

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Just throwing this out there.. Haven't read all your posts so not sure if it's mentioned..

The DF algorithm attempts to avoid matching two of the same roles together, so the chance of seeing 2x SMN, or a SMN and a BLM together (as an example, same can be said about MCH/BRD, DRG/MNK) is significantly lower then what you make it out to be.. Does it happen? Sure, from time to time.. However the likelihood of being contested in a 4-man dungeon is pretty damn slim across the board.

From my understanding, the OP's issues are mainly in 4-man content (specifically levelling and DR:Ex dungeons).. I mean if they are "farming" 8-man content for gear - there is nearly always a weekly loot lock on this content which would essentially discourage people to even lot on stuff unless they absolutely wanted it and used it for their weekly allowance....

Your idea of "Need" for every job is quite short sighted and will only escalate the problem further... That newbie who needs gear for the class they are on will no longer have exclusive rights to it - and newbies would end up getting geared up even SLOWER. I am a little surprised that all of your maths missed that pretty major point..

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Originally Posted by Altena

[...]

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Heard that before, but:
(a) no mention of the algorithm or even an expected bias
(b) accounting for algorithm failures (not enough people queueing, or high-load)
(c) 2 out of 7 queues (as predicted) with another BLM or SMN in a light party seems pretty close to reality in my experience (and I can't trust it is "significantly lower" without an adequate sample number and distance)


I wouldn't add an arbitrary weight there.

My "need" suggestion actually covers everyone: people who want more seals/desynths can roll on more loot with better odds, people who need items for glamours/gearing have more chances of getting them even if they're for another class, and if there is the need to adjust who gets what they can still communicate with the party as others suggested.
The chances of getting an item for gearing/glam, with 5 or 7 categories of items in the mix, are already worse than getting the highest roll out of 4 ppl.

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Originally Posted by Soge01

I am getting sick and tired of finding a piece of gear I need for one of my Job classes and someone with higher lvl gear who clearly doesn't need it anymore goes and hits the "Need" button anyways and snatches it away!

Higher levels geared players should NOT have the ability to do that and needs to be changed where they have to gamble with their luck through the Greed command like everyone else who's Job class doesn't relate to a certain piece of drop gear in a dungeon.

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If you want gear for that job, then run that job through that content. Don't expect to be given gear just because you "need it more" than the higher geared player does. The higher geared player has plenty of reasons to roll Need and has every right to - Seals, Desynthesis, Glamour, Retainer Ventures (to up item levels), etc.

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Originally Posted by ColorOfSakura

If you want gear for that job, then run that job through that content. Don't expect to be given gear just because you "need it more" than the higher geared player does. The higher geared player has plenty of reasons to roll Need and has every right to - Seals, Desynthesis, Glamour, Retainer Ventures (to up item levels), etc.

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There's truth to this subtle nuance. One that I failed to highlight in my previous responses lately on here.

If you need it for a job you're not on in the dungeon, then you should indeed have played as that job. I can imagine it's frustrating though if you're both on the same job, you being undergeared and the other snatching it away for the mentioned resources. I mean, in that situation the lower geared players needs both those resources and the gear. I'll admit said situation shouldn't last too long as dungeon drops are far from optimal end-game gearing, but it can be a good stepping stone for some weeks. I know I still use an aiming ring on my NIN from EXP roulette purely because it has both CRIT and DET on it and the replacement will take several weeks (first gearing DRG, then tanks, then my NIN). The crafted one sadly isn't better in terms of statweight for me now so yeah.

Of course, such situations are more exceptions rather then the majority. But as mentioned before numerous times by numerous people in the thread: talking is key here. You'll find people can be more open to kindness and understanding if you explain the situation in a few lines (and they can still chose to click "pass" after).

Sucks to be you. Run the dungeon again.

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Originally Posted by Saito_S

snippity

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Haha, yeah, I'll admit I was a bit angry at that point in time from all the seemingly dismissive posts I read, which was caused when I failed to apply nuance to reading the OP's post. I interpreted as if people were taking the piss out of the concept of caring for fellow players as something nasty. I emotionaly still stand by the actual meaning of those words though and I don't consider it bad to be on that particular high horse, especially when it benefits everyone around me. I'm also glad to a degree the tone of voice actually offended someone enough to reply. It means that person most definitely struggled at one point in their life with the ethics I pointed out by the tone of voice, which is good. But I guess I was a bit overzealous and for the sake of actually reinforcing what I would consider ideal behaviour in society, doing this actually backfires on me. These things ideally should come voluntarilly, without enforcement from me like an angry parent.

Urgh, so much to learn still. I'll leave it at that. Thanks for the point-out Saito_S

Ps. Back in the days I was literally made aware of need/greed etiquette and on the Chaos (EU) data-center it most definitely seemed like people adhered to it whenever I was in roulettes. Maybe it's, or was I suppose, a European sentiment?

Pps. I welcome bluntness, I'm Dutch. But people can expect me to dissect the lack on rationality if they don't apply some in the mix that is their arguments. You (Saito-S) applied a good dose of it, showed you disagreed and showed understanding both sides. A balance between emotional and rational that can count on my support all the way.

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Originally Posted by Valenth

Snip

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Ohh get off the soapbox and stop with the sophistry (you are doing it again)... Don't make assumptions about my personal experiences pls. I've been annoyed at RNG not players for RNG favoring them, there is a massive difference between the two. Never not once have I felt an item has been taken from me by another player unfairly, I have always been able to roll need on what I want.

I didn't feel the reply because Saito_S pretty much summed up the sentiment.

Been playing on the Choas datacentre since 2.0, never been such an etiquette. No one person telling you to do something does not reflect sentiments across the entire datacentre. Or you think you are always on the better end of everything "I don't roll need coz I'm so nice", "ahh well maybe your datacentre sucks coz mine was so perfect"... Sure I've not quoted directly but tell me how this is not your argument? :P

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Originally Posted by Valenth

However! If you could come up with a rational explanation how this behaviour of mine might actually harm the community as a whole (think Darth Traya's story to Revan on giving a beggar money) rather than emotional arguments and opinions you have without much constructive build-up, then I could very well change my PoV on the issue and actually support your cause. Otherwise we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I await your constructive reply. :)

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One thing I would like to say in regards to above is that my argument is nothing but pragmatic as there is a use for these items outside of just gearing. Your argument is purely emotional and relies on the emotions of yourself and other players. So called me out on being the one basing their opinion on emotion only is rather hypocritical as that is all your argument, you have nothing else.

The pragamtic argument you don't want to listen to and keep going back to talking about your feelings, so tell me how you want a discussion?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cordie

My "need" suggestion actually covers everyone: people who want more seals/desynths can roll on more loot with better odds, people who need items for glamours/gearing have more chances of getting them even if they're for another class, and if there is the need to adjust who gets what they can still communicate with the party as others suggested.
The chances of getting an item for gearing/glam, with 5 or 7 categories of items in the mix, are already worse than getting the highest roll out of 4 ppl.

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Eh? That makes 0 sense..

Newbie Tank, who only has a Tank (no other class to gear as they are a newbie) runs through a dungeon and the Tank body drops.
How does it benefit the newbie that is trying to gear if everyone can roll on it?

That is the whole point this thread was created. A player was complaining about high geared people getting gear that the newbie needs for upgrades.
A lot of people are saying that if they need gear for a certain class then they should play that class for the content so they can get loot priority.
At least with the current system, you can have priority on a certain class by playing that class.

Your "suggestion" effectively eliminates that option. The only people it benefits are those that are going for seals. You turn a forced greed system into a "greed in good faith" system in which case I don't trust the community for that. Do you?

The current system is fine. Eliminating the class-based Need / Greed system gives too much advantage to those that don't care what piece of gear it is because it will just be converted into seals.

the major differences is the different "needs" people might have on a piece of gear is this.

1. Need/greed for Seals. quick turn in for 400-1200 seals, doesnt care which piece of gear.
2. Need/greed for Desynth. again sorta like same above, you make it go poof for desynth. still need/greed it again. However more specfic items applies
3. Need/greed for Glamour. will most likely NEVER turn in for seals and will hold onto it forever, never needing it again exceppt for 2 above options.
4. Need for Upgrade. This 1 should get all priority tbh. Its something that directly affects their ilvl and helps increase speed of run even by an extremely marginal amount depending on the ilvl increase.
5. Greed for Upgrade. This like #4 is still technically an upgrade but for offjobs. To me this 1 is the same as glamours. They wont need it again except for option #1, 2 if they get rid of it.

The reason i feel strongly about this list... is watching some jackwagon get a piece of gear especially hard to get items in Coil, Alex, Extremes, and any of the 24mans (Especially the 24mans) RUBS ME THE WRONG WAY. Its even insulting. 4man greeding for seals doesnt bother me as much as the hard to obtain 1s listed. To me this 1 is the same as glamours. They wont need it again except for option #1, 2 if they get rid of it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altena

[...]

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If anything, my proposal will change a "forced-greed" system into a "forced-need", and I see nothing wrong if it takes good faith to adjust everyone's priorities on a case-by-case basis -still have party chat for that.

As for the newbie's need for gear there is nothing special about it:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Altena

I need GC seals, and I need desynth levels.
Therefore I need the gear just as much as you do.

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