Just got wheeling thrust.... Can someone explain the point of it to me?

It seems to me they pretty easily could have made the whole "4th combo" skills a single attack and the blood of the dragon buffs modify which side gets the bonus potency.

I can understand the complaining pretty easily
Like sure ninja gets 2 enmity modifiers that are usually not needed but they are also not forced on you and they are very useful when needed
Even if it's minor you feel like you gained something

or the bard/machinist stances, Sure they are kind of useless when you first get them but they also aren't forced on you and overall do end up giving you a gain for the inconvenience

with dragoon when I hit 58 it was just like... here's more stuff you have to keep watch of and do, you can't turn it off, and you gain absolutely nothing for the extra effort.
It's like a job transferring you to a new location that increases your commute by an hour with no pay raise. It just feels bad
Even a rarely needed situational skill like a 1 Ilm punch type effect that has to combo after feint, useless most of the time but great when it's needed. You'd at least feel like you gained something more than -1 button

I loved acquiring this skill, it actually made the job interesting and made it very easy to distinguish the good from the bad dragoons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

For the quadrillionth time, nobody is complaining about RNG of FaC and WT. We're complaining that at 54 it's 100% and at 56 it's now 50% but with no added damage boost. A new ability nerfs a previous ability with no other plus. It's not that the RNG is hard or difficult, it's that we go from having NO RNG, to having a RNG--but there isn't a boost in damage or ANYTHING. If WT came simultaneously with a trait for DRG at 56 that gave Action Damage+10% or something, then at least we could say leveling up to 56 makes DRG stronger, but leveling up to 56 makes DRG weaker.

---

Simple solution here is to nerf the skill at 54 to 50% and only let you get 100% at 56. That way you can "feel" good about leveling.

Seriously though if this is the bulk of the argument or the point then it's very silly. And for the record leveling to 56 doesn't make the dragoon "weaker" at all. Weaker means a general reduction vs previously, there is NOT a damage reduction at any level. If anything the level itself gives you a main stat increase along with the ability to wear gear with higher stat limits. This is an increase anyway you put it.

I'm actually looking forward to leveling DRG come 3.1 (bonus exp!). 2.0 DRG was kinda bland to me, but 3.0 DRG actually looks pretty fun, my melee partner(DRG) has been trying to get to level it for months. Maintaining BoTD and maximizing Gierskogul use seems interesting. While F&C and WT mixes up the already straightforward DRG rotation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nihility

Even if it's minor you feel like you gained something

---

And this, I felt like I gained absolutely nothing upon obtaining Smoke Screen as my FIRST new HW ability. :mad:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

100% a flat penalty. At 56 you have a 100% proc, unless you weren't paying attention. It was predictable and easy to plan for. At 58 now it's 50/50. It isn't hard, but there is now a larger margin for error meaning there a few fractions of a second to screw up. This isn't clever game design, it doesn't make DRG hard or more interesting to play, it makes DRG a chore. DRG may be the best DPS right now, but there is NO official statement from SE saying DRG was intended to be the best DPS. That's only what player-base came to after thorough theorycrafting and parsing. What if in 3.1 NIN becomes the best melee DPS? Would that then satisfy you? No other job has a guaranteed proc at one level, then a random branching proc system later. It would be fine if the random proc system meant better damage, but in reality it slows damage because there's actually more room for error. It makes no sense. I don't know why you guys are trying to justify it.

---

This will sound harsh, because that is exactly how I mean it to be.

What you're arguing against is *exactly* the reason the skill exists. It's the same thing as any of the following skills:

Bard
Warden's Paean

Ninja
Shadewalker
Smoke Screen

Paladin
Clemency

Are you going to whine about how all these jobs got shafted, too, by getting a skill that is practically worthless? At least our skill is actually used regularly. It adds fun to the class, makes it dynamic and way more enjoyable to play than it was back in 2.x. I would say this is subjective, but it really isn't. Dragoon was boring and rote. I've said this in this thread before. Now, it's entertaining. Variable. Makes you think, weigh options, and play way faster than you did back before Blood of the Dragon was a thing. Complaining about this because it "slows you down" or whatever you wanna argue is simply saying "I can't deal with this change, because I'm not fast enough to react."

The only response I can give to you is shape up or ship out. Learn to play with it. It slows *literally* nothing down. You have enough time to react, move, hit Jump (the biggest animation lock skill we have) and get off your positional with 0 delay. Please give me an example of a time where this slows you down so I can more definitively tell you that you should practice more.


I apologize for being rude, but it is really frustrating that I've had to outline this a million times in this same thread and still have people parroting the same nonsense again and again.

And, just to prove my point before someone calls foul!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4US9XMgNgC8

Watch my opener in this run. I hit CT [rear] > Leg+PS > FaC [flank] > Jump > Phleb while stacking rear before hitting Jump - and I have 0 downtime on the GCD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

you would be fine with it if you got both abilities at 56 instead of one at 56, one at 58?

---

Obviously not everyone shares the same view, but I think this is what most people are (should be) annoyed at. It's just that it's a wasted skill slot for 58 that doesn't add anything but complexity. This is something that I think is typically dealt with through traits. Here, I can explain exactly why this is a bit inappropriate.


Think about Bloodletter as an example. It's a skill that initially has no depth or complexity, but gains it through a trait. Once it gains the ability to proc, it means you get more damage for actually keeping a close eye on it. Better yet, it's a trait. This is how things should be. You get a skill, and it increases the difficulty, or ceiling at which the job can be played at. At the same time, it also feels (and is) rewarding when used correctly. I don't think I can say the same about Wheeling Thrust. Again, the 4th hit skills do the same thing, and there's not much validation for separating them into separate entities when it's the same system, essentially.

I welcome the injection of variety in DRG. I feel we desperately needed it, and it's unlikely they'd actually go as far as creating a new skill in it's stead. It's worth noting though, that the dissenting views on the skill are more than validated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nominous

Obviously not everyone shares the same view, but I think this is what most people are (should be) annoyed at. It's just that it's a wasted skill slot for 58 that doesn't add anything but complexity. This is something that I think is typically dealt with through traits. Here, I can explain exactly why this is a bit inappropriate.

---

It's not exclusive to DRG getting this treatment though, nor can you necessarily say that WT (or really any skill) is added only for the sake of complexity because you sorta have to obtain them to progress through the job quests to get your next skills. For example, WM/GB by itself raw is actually a dps loss for their respective jobs until they get the new abilities, and it's only a dps gain because those new abilities are locked behind WM/GB. If we were to take the current design of GB/WM and make it not require those stances, then the design of those abilities become questionable at best in regards to how it's supposed to be utilized.

Whether or not it does a good job at adding said complexity is a different argument all together.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nominous

Think about Bloodletter as an example.

---

Bloodletter when gained is an extra damage skill that's oGCD. I mean it's not really a good comparison if people are trying to make the argument that "WT does absolutely nothing but make the job harder", but that's also applied to abilities like WM (which not only makes the job "harder", but lowers their dps until they get more abilities) or smokescreen/clemency/paeon (which only serves to fill a very specific niche that has almost no use in a practical environment, and more often than not becomes detrimental to the job using it because of the cast times, nor add any layers of complexity/difficulty to said job)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

It's not exclusive to DRG getting this treatment though, nor can you necessarily say that WT (or really any skill) is added only for the sake of complexity because you sorta have to obtain them to progress through the job quests to get your next skills.

---

It's a great comparison. It's not whether it's an OGCD, or a normal GCD we're comparing. I'm comparing the use of a skill slot for one class, to another. A skill slot that gives you an OGCD, provided it's not horrendously animation locked, will always be a benefit, so I'm not counting that in the comparison. What I am counting, is the fact that we have a system for adding quirks and peculiarities to existing skills without wasting skill slots. It's the trait system. For any skill that has additional functions, or any additional systems, it's almost purely through traits, or it's built into the skill itself at the level it's presented to you.

It's not that Wheeling Thrust adds nothing but complexity that makes it particularly bad, either.

It's multiple variables that come together to make the skill seem more like a wasted slot than a genuinely great use of a 58 skill. Not many people question a skill like Gauss Barrel, or Wanderers. Why? Because they understand it's a piece of a puzzle. It's something they can't fully utilize until everything's said and done. That being said, once they are 'done' they get more benefit from having it. We don't get any more benefit than F&C already gives us. Again, it's not even really about that for me, it's about the fact that they could have either made it a trait, lumped them together, or something, and given us a 58 skill that actually had more use than what Wheeling has.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nominous

It's multiple variables that come together to make the skill seem more like a wasted slot than a genuinely great use of a 58 skill. Not many people question a skill like Gauss Barrel, or Wanderers. Why? Because they understand it's a piece of a puzzle. It's something they can't fully utilize until everything's said and done. That being said, once they are 'done' they get more benefit from having it. .

---

Except, that's still the same as WM/GB. WT is still a "piece of the puzzle" to make the class feel complete at level 60, otherwise you're just going to go back to the flank for every 4th hit. You don''t fully utilize something like BotD, WT or FnC until you get GS from level 60 either, until then it's adding everything one at a time before it feels complete. There's no benefit from using WM/GB when you get it at 52, but only until you get the other abilties does it feel like it's acutally doing something while at the same time, it doesn't detriment your character (which WT does not do, but WM/GB does since it actually lowers your dps).

You also go on about "wasted skill slots" when again, DRG is not the only example of this, if you can even consider something like WT to be a "wasted skill slot" compared to the likes of paeon, clemency or smokescreen. Because it still adds something to the job that actively gets utilized. When you say "great use of a 58 skill", would you consider those 3 a great addition to the jobs? Is the "wasted skill slot" even a big deal considering DRG's current placings (which can be said for other jobs who also have abilties that fill a useless niche)

I don't mean to sound like an arse, but it's really hard to sympathize for a job that's going on about how they have a "wasted" skill slot when other jobs has the same thing, except theirs don't even have a persisting, ongoing purpose and that DRG as of now is arguably one of the best dps jobs to bring.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

When you say "great use of a 58 skill", would you consider those 3 a great addition to the jobs?

---

So I think you're misunderstanding. Again, it's as simple as the fact that we have traits for additional systems or layers of depth into a single skill. There's no need to use a skill slot for said skills, when extra functions have been, and could have been built in. Let me show you how many skills don't require the use of an actual ability, or skill slot, that all have systems either built in (in one level/ability) as opposed to multiple slots or abilities.

Defiance (Wrath is a built in ability, you don't need to unlock an additional ability to stack it)
Deliverance (Abandon is built in, as well as the ability to transfer Wrath->Abandon and vice versa)
Greased Lightning (Traited- you don't separately unlock extra stacks through quests/actual skill slots)
Opo-Opo/Couerl/Raptor Form (The ability to transition between these stances, and the stances themselves, are built in to skills, there's no need for a separate ability that allows that)
Suiton (Hide effect is automatically built in, no separate ability that needs unlocked to allow you to do so with it)

The list goes on, but you get the idea. None of the above abilities rely on separate skill quests or slots to actually achieve more complexity or depth. It's all done either passively, or through traiting. And that's how it honestly, should stay. It's cohesive and makes the most sense.

And as a matter of fact, I actually consistently tell my raiding members that I feel there need to be changes to clemency because of it's lackluster benefits. And yes, the enmity skills on NIN ARE wasted slots, and I think many NIN would agree it adds very little to the job. You're debating things that have nothing to do with the conversation that I'm having. I'm not talking about, or debating the fact that other jobs don't have weird problems. I never alluded to it, actually. I also never said that other jobs don't have wasted skill slots. I'm specifically only talking about Wheeling Thrust, and how realistically, there's not much reason (other than maybe laziness) for them to not have put more thought into a better way to implement it. And NIN's abilities, and other jobs new abilities. There's flaws everywhere, but WT is what I'm speaking on.

Dragoons are extremely well balanced, the proc attacks are there to add an extra dynamic to the rotation. 2.0 drg was very bland.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nominous

I also never said that other jobs don't have wasted skill slots. I'm specifically only talking about Wheeling Thrust, and how realistically, there's not much reason (other than maybe laziness) for them to not have put more thought into a better way to implement it. And NIN's abilities, and other jobs new abilities. There's flaws everywhere, but WT is what I'm speaking on.

---

So you would rather have them add a trait at 58 instead of a new ability, which will lead to the exactly same functional job at 60? That really doesn't sound like a good reason to bring up a debate to be honest.
They can change it in the future, but that means redoing how the previous skills works without WT (so it effectively changes nothing for DRGs that are already level 60) or adding a new skill that requires the complete rebalancing of the job, or add in another useless skill in it's place (which then brings to DRG having 6 different skills compared to everyone only having 5). You bring up the flaw but also offer no solution that can both be easily implemented and practical at the current state of the game because like I've said before, the job itself still functions really well and performs really well, and all of their skills sitll serve a purpose despite the implementation.

I keep referencing the other jobs because honestly, it's relevant to the fact that it's roughly the same concepet of having a "wasted skill". I didn't say that you don't think the other jobs have useless skills, but on that basis DRGs are not special in this regard that honestly should spur such a long debate to have it changed, nevermind the fact that WT still actually does something anyway. They could have implemented it as a trait, but whats the point if it leads to the same end product unless you really want the extra skill slot.

Realistically, what do you want to be done? Because the only thing I see right now from you is that you're debating on it's implementation for the sake of debating. There could be solutions, but if it effectively leads to the exact, same DRG we have now, then what's the point?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

So you would rather have them add a trait at 58 instead of a new ability, which will lead to the exactly same functional job at 60?

---

That's a weird conclusion to jump to, based on what I've been saying. In any case.



I'd change the wording of BoTD slightly to say something to the effect of... "Additional Effect: Grants Fang and Claw or Wheeling Thrust when completing a combo with Chaos Thrust or Full Thrust." Instead of sharper, or enhanced, since the skills wouldn't exist separately in a perfect world. Then, this is what the 56 skill would look like:

Lv. 56- Final Thrust
Delivers an attack with a potency of 200.
290 when executed from the rear while under the effect of Wheeling Thrust.
290 when executed from the flank while under the effect of Fang and Claw.
Can only be executed while under the effect of Blood of the Dragon.

Alternatively, keep everything the same, just consolidate Wheeling Thrust and F&C both into level 56.

As for the 58 skill, anything could have worked. oGCD, quality of life, utility, buff, defensive, anything. WT in it's current iteration is actually nothing more than a palette swap of F&C, that creates a 50/50 for you. No extra potency, no added flexibility or mobility, no effects, or anything else. Even Blizzard IV, and Fire IV, which have the same potency, have different benefits and detriments. By this logic, almost anything that has real viable use, would have been a more worthy 58 skill than WT. And even with all of that...


Like I said in a previous post, if you read... I actually welcome the uses of WT (even if it's functionally the same as F&C), as well as the depth it brings to a once overly simplistic job. I also said that I genuinely doubt they'd change it. Even if they did, they'd basically have no other choice but to do the same for other jobs who feel similarly, and that's asking for basically an entire battle system revamp. That being said, I thought I'd shed a reason as to why the thoughts on WT are valid, and why people are rightly annoyed at it. It's worthwhile conversation in my book. After all, while it's still welcomed complexity, it's always good to give devs feedback for future adjustments or expansions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nominous

As for the 58 skill to take WT's place, anything could have worked. oGCD, quality of life, utility, buff, defensive, anything.

---

Quoting myself because people don't read old posts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JackFross

My main argument against giving Dragoons a "fifth" skill (since we already get 5...) is that we're ALREADY one of the highest DPS classes in the game AND we bring Battle Litany to the field, which is a huge gain for the party, believe it or not. If you gave us something else, it's gonna fall into one of these categories:
1. Messes with the current *beautiful* rotation, making things wonky and gross.
2. New utility move that makes Dragoons more attractive than they already are (90% of raid groups run one because BL+BRD/MCH buff).
3. New worthless skill like Feint that will *never* be used outside of certain situations which would actually still end up falling under 2 if it's *useful*.
4. New oGCD skill to boost our dps by a marginal amount we don't need to be boosted by while forcing us to squeeze YET ANOTHER skill into the first 24s of the fight.

None of those options are good. I want none of that.

Give me a legitimate thing we as Dragoons would WANT TO SEE as a fifth skill, and I'll maybe say your argument has merit. Give me an idea that doesn't fall into one of the four categories above and I'll listen.

---

People are annoyed by it because it makes the class trickier to play than it was pre-3.0. Literally every post complaining about it can be boiled down to exactly that. Every single one of them will quote this and say, "No, it doesn't make it trickier or harder, it makes it just so annoying." That's the exact same argument. I can't use it properly and therefore, it is broken. This is faulty logic, so let's stop justifying such baseless rancor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nominous

Like I said in a previous post, if you read... I actually welcome the uses of WT (even if it's functionally the same as F&C), as well as the depth it brings to a once overly simplistic job. I also said that I genuinely doubt they'd change it. Even if they did, they'd basically have no other choice but to do the same for other jobs who feel similarly, and that's asking for basically an entire battle system revamp. That being said, I thought I'd shed a reason as to why the thoughts on WT are valid, and why people are rightly annoyed at it. It's worthwhile conversation in my book. After all, while it's still welcomed complexity, it's always good to give devs feedback for future adjustments or expansions.

---

Your reasons are not theirs though is what you'd have to understand, especially if you're going to debate in their place but come from a different perspective. And you're contradicting yourself which is confusing on exactly what you want, (because I do read your posts) especially when you say

Quote:

---

WT in it's current iteration is actually nothing more than a palette swap of F&C, that creates a 50/50 for you. No extra potency, no added flexibility or mobility, no effects, or anything else.

---

Then say

Quote:

---

I actually welcome the uses of WT (even if it's functionally the same as F&C), as well as the depth it brings to a once overly simplistic job.

---

I cannot tell if you think WT is a useless skill that adds nothing, or something that has uses and adds depth.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JackFross

This will sound harsh, because that is exactly how I mean it to be.

What you're arguing against is *exactly* the reason the skill exists. It's the same thing as any of the following skills:

Bard
Warden's Paean

Ninja
Shadewalker
Smoke Screen

Paladin
Clemency

Are you going to whine about how all these jobs got shafted, too, by getting a skill that is practically worthless? At least our skill is actually used regularly. It adds fun to the class, makes it dynamic and way more enjoyable to play than it was back in 2.x. I would say this is subjective, but it really isn't. Dragoon was boring and rote. I've said this in this thread before. Now, it's entertaining. Variable. Makes you think, weigh options, and play way faster than you did back before Blood of the Dragon was a thing. Complaining about this because it "slows you down" or whatever you wanna argue is simply saying "I can't deal with this change, because I'm not fast enough to react."

The only response I can give to you is shape up or ship out. Learn to play with it. It slows *literally* nothing down. You have enough time to react, move, hit Jump (the biggest animation lock skill we have) and get off your positional with 0 delay. Please give me an example of a time where this slows you down so I can more definitively tell you that you should practice more.


I apologize for being rude, but it is really frustrating that I've had to outline this a million times in this same thread and still have people parroting the same nonsense again and again.

And, just to prove my point before someone calls foul!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4US9XMgNgC8

Watch my opener in this run. I hit CT [rear] > Leg+PS > FaC [flank] > Jump > Phleb while stacking rear before hitting Jump - and I have 0 downtime on the GCD.

---

You also left out the wanderer's minuet, and gauss barrel, and dissipation, and all the other ones people don't like but your also missing the point.

Even the most outwardly useless skill which i would probably argue is shadewalker doesn't really have any negative effects about it. Sure it's kind of a bummer of a skill but it doesn't really have any downside and even if it is miniscule it does add something to the class

Wheeling thrust or Fang and Claw(it doesn't really matter which, just wheeling thrust gets the scrutiny since it's the second one) doesn't really serve any purpose whatsoever and it is forced upon you. No dps increase, no utility, just extra work.
If you weren't forced to learn skills in order the top progression guild's dragoons would most likely all skip fang and claw because a rear positional is more useful and why would you want to do something that just adds more variables with no benefit when your trying to push the bleeding edge of new content?

You can't really say that about any other skill. There would be no tangible reason to skip learning shadewalker since the worst case scenario is just not using it.

There's really no reason it needs to be two separate skills at all as well.
They could have very easily just made it be "Fang and Claw: potency 200, extends dragon's blood duration" at 56 and the dragon's blood buffs be +90 to next fang and claw potency if executed at rear/flank.

When I say this I am not approaching from a "I enjoy the mechanic" standpoint at all btw
Just from a strictly numbers "this skill introduces a larger margin of error for no benefit whatsoever"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nihility

Just from a strictly numbers "this skill introduces a larger margin of error for no benefit whatsoever"

---

WM/GB causes you to lose DPS in the same sense that WT does; if you can't do it properly, its a damage loss compared to before. The difference is that WM/GB when you get it is objectively a damage loss, and it used to be a damage loss up to and including at 60 until they had to buff it. WT serves its purpose in adding some sort of dynamic factor to DRG, but if you're against that, then welp.

WM/GB also causes you to do extra work for arbitrarily no damage gain (unless it's for AoEing) if you really think that way of WT, and only when you get the new abilities (which are locked behind WM/GB) does it become a damage increase. But we could say the same that GS is locked behind WT because well, you sorta need to get WT first.

Trying to use wardens paeon is actually a damage loss due to the rather long cast time, same with clemency on top of the fact it can get interrupted and resets the paladin's combo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

I cannot tell if you think WT is a useless skill that adds nothing, or something that has uses and adds depth.

---

They aren't mutually exclusive. I can see how that comes off as confusing, but it's just easier to say that both statements are true. In a way.

Adding difficulty, strictly speaking, is technically adding something. It also technically has it's uses. However, since it has the same use as Fang and Claw, they're interchangeable. You can say, "Fang and Claw has 290 potency and increases BoTD by 15 seconds" and you'd be right. You could say the same for Wheeling Thrust, and you'd be right. Therefore, their only defining characteristics are the positional requirements, when all else is stripped from the equation. That does not warrant it being a 58 skill all on it's own.

As nice as it is to have a more reaction based rotation, it doesn't bring anything new, after considering F&C.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JackFross

Quoting myself because people don't read old posts.


People are annoyed by it because it makes the class trickier to play than it was pre-3.0. Literally every post complaining about it can be boiled down to exactly that. Every single one of them will quote this and say, "No, it doesn't make it trickier or harder, it makes it just so annoying." That's the exact same argument. I can't use it properly and therefore, it is broken. This is faulty logic, so let's stop justifying such baseless rancor.

---

Eh, not every complaint is gonna be about the difficulty. I mean, me for example. I thought more DRG were just disappointed that 58 could have technically been used for some other skill, not the fact that it made our rotation more difficult. Then again, I give this community the benefit of the doubt quite often. In any case, there's definitely better things that could have been added in at 58 than that. Nobody could name something that doesn't exist because there's too many possibilities, and knowing what's TOO powerful is something only the devs can decide. I mean, I would think a skill like Perfect Balance would have never been created for MNK, but it's there. I would have never thought up Blood of the Dragon, but it's there. When 70 is the new cap, they'll have decided on new skills then, too. They have the creativity to have thought of a way to consolidate those 2 skills into one level, and most definitely to have a different 58 skill.

Anyways, I digress.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nominous

They aren't mutually exclusive. I can see how that comes off as confusing, but it's just easier to say that both statements are true. In a way.

As nice as it is to have a more reaction based rotation, it doesn't bring anything new, after considering F&C.

---

I agree it was a bad idea to have WT as its own stand-alone skill.
I can see what they were trying to do with F&C + WT but the trouble was more the implementation. In its current form it would of made more sense to have WT + F&C be given at the same time @ level 56, have a trait that gives the ability for WT + F&C to extend BotD @ 58 and Geirskogul at 60.

If we go the path of an RnG-less style, they could've done something like you can choose to WT or F&C instead of Proc after either CT/TTT combos, the differences are WT has 290 Rear potency, F&C has only 200 potency but extends BotD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nominous

Nobody could name something that doesn't exist because there's too many possibilities, and knowing what's TOO powerful is something only the devs can decide.

---

You can kind of gauge how OP any alterations to WT would be, though.

The case of WT as a fifth hit
As it is, DRG burns 70+60+60+60 for its combos (FT/CT+4). In the specific case of FT combo, with a 2.41s GCD, that's 1000 potency every 9.64 seconds, at a net cost of 160TP (250 TP spent, minus 90 TP regained naturally). Adding a fifth hit at 60 TP makes this theoretical WT combo 1290 potency (assuming nothing else changes) every 12.05 seconds, at a net cost of 190TP (310 TP spent, minus 120 natural regain). It makes DRG hugely more TP efficient to make WT a fifth hit on the combo, in addition to wrecking DRG's debuff rotation with disembowel/CT/phlebotemize due to the extra GCDs on both combos. Increasing WT's TP cost to compensate would just make it useless or get dumped when you start running low on TP, wrecking the timing on BOD/geirskogul.
Additionally, if WT was the only way to get BOD time extensions, it would be horrible to maintain BOD (because it adds 15 and it takes 12 to get there); if F&C and WT extended it, it would be trivial to maintain and you'd only be worrying about geirskogul's CD. That's another massive DPS buff (or loss, depending how you want WT to work).

The case of WT as an oGCD
Making WT an off-CD jump-style attack instead is even more TP efficient, because you get 200-260 potency out of it, depending if BOD buffs its potency like jump/spineshatter. It's another ranged heavy hit that doesn't cost TP, and it's yet another oGCD that needs to be weaved in during an opener. Even if it was a 30s CD like jump, it would make DRG's burst absolutely ridiculous during b4b windows. DRG's threat generation is absolutely out of control as-is, this just guarantees that going through an opener will require ending with elusive jump instead of holding it for later in the fight. You also won't have elusive for the second b4b run, so good luck with whatever threat you've generated in those 90 seconds.

The case of WT as it is
Maintains DRG's TP efficiency as described above, allows BOD to be easily maintained, and adds a small inconvenience to DRGs that don't move around a lot. It's kind of a dead slot as far as skills go, but the alternatives give DRG massive buffs that it doesn't need.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fm_fenrir

You can kind of gauge how OP any alterations to WT would be, though.
The case of WT as a fifth hit
As it is, DRG burns 70+60+60+60 for its combos (FT/CT+4). In the specific case of FT combo, with a 2.41s GCD, that's 1000 potency every 9.64 seconds, at a net cost of 160TP (250 TP spent, minus 90 TP regained naturally). Adding a fifth hit at 60 TP makes this theoretical WT combo 1290 potency (assuming nothing else changes) every 12.05 seconds, at a net cost of 190TP (310 TP spent, minus 120 natural regain). It makes DRG hugely more TP efficient to make WT a fifth hit on the combo, in addition to wrecking DRG's debuff rotation with disembowel/CT/phlebotemize due to the extra GCDs on both combos. Increasing WT's TP cost to compensate would just make it useless or get dumped when you start running low on TP, wrecking the timing on BOD/geirskogul.
Additionally, if WT was the only way to get BOD time extensions, it would be horrible to maintain BOD (because it adds 15 and it takes 12 to get there); if F&C and WT extended it, it would be trivial to maintain and you'd only be worrying about geirskogul's CD. That's another massive DPS buff (or loss, depending how you want WT to work).

The case of WT as an oGCD
Making WT an off-CD jump-style attack instead is even more TP efficient, because you get 200-260 potency out of it, depending if BOD buffs its potency like jump/spineshatter. It's another ranged heavy hit that doesn't cost TP, and it's yet another oGCD that needs to be weaved in during an opener. Even if it was a 30s CD like jump, it would make DRG's burst absolutely ridiculous during b4b windows. DRG's threat generation is absolutely out of control as-is, this just guarantees that going through an opener will require ending with elusive jump instead of holding it for later in the fight. You also won't have elusive for the second b4b run, so good luck with whatever threat you've generated in those 90 seconds.

The case of WT as it is
Maintains DRG's TP efficiency as described above, allows BOD to be easily maintained, and adds a small inconvenience to DRGs that don't move around a lot. It's kind of a dead slot as far as skills go, but the alternatives give DRG massive buffs that it doesn't need.

---

but just as he said. there are so many possibilities
what if it was changed into an alternate jump that shares cooldown with spineshatter dive with a different effect
or made it into a utility jump skill like shukuchi
or a debuff of some sort with low damage
or a buff your next attack sort of deal, they could even have one that invokes a global cooldown that's only useful for buffing damage during travel time
or a lowish-potency skill with a cooldown that gives blood of the dragon time that is just there as a backup in case something screws up and your about to lose it
or an aoe that chains with doomspike for a real aoe combo
or any of a million other things it could be other than claw and fang part 2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nihility

what if it was changed into an alternate jump that shares cooldown with spineshatter dive with a different effect

---

A closer that doesn't give diminishing returns that the tank has to worry about? Net improvement, never use spineshatter again unless you direly need the second stun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nihility

or made it into a utility jump skill like shukuchi

---

DRG already has two gap closers on separate CDs, making it the most mobile DPS in running fights. You can use elusive as a third in a pinch, but it's slightly less targeted. Adding a fourth mobility skill?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nihility

or a debuff of some sort with low damage

---

You already have CT as the highest potency skill in the game, and Phlebotomize is super strong, too. You also have extremely strong debuff utility in Disembowel. What would this do besides sit next to Feint on the bench?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nihility

or a buff your next attack sort of deal, they could even have one that invokes a global cooldown that's only useful for buffing damage during travel time

---

This one I could get behind, but it would have to break combos or you'd just use it to close b4b life surged FT for 6k damage. If it broke combos, though, it wouldn't be terribly useful except maybe buffing a jump or DFD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nihility

or a lowish-potency skill with a cooldown that gives blood of the dragon time that is just there as a backup in case something screws up and your about to lose it

---

Managing BOD is pretty much the only difficult thing DRG has to worry about these days. One whole buff, that you can refresh just by doing your regular rotations. Losing BOD is almost always a choice of front-loading damage with Geirskogul, not "oh no I walked away from the mob for too long", in which case you'd Geirskogul to clear BOD anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nihility

or an aoe that chains with doomspike for a real aoe combo

---

I love doomspike, it will forever be slot 5 on my hotbar because it's so damn useful for trash pulls. However, it's also 160 potency in a larger column than overpower--what would the combo be? 180 potency? 200 potency? Why wouldn't you want Doomspike->this thing to annihilate trash pulls and obviate NIN/MNK forever? Add BOD and Geirskogul for even more DPS on large pulls, the one thing DRG is kind of terrible at.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nihility

or any of a million other things it could be other than claw and fang part 2

---

I would suggest giving it additional enmity and branching out with FT/CT so you could legitimately hold threat if you need to be OT for whatever reason, but that's really just a suggestion for me more than a useful one. So many experts where the MT... Doesn't. /sigh

edit: Don't get me wrong, I don't specifically love WT as it is, but like I said before, DRG is extremely strong and pretty much any changes will either make it super OP or the alternative will be even more useless. I'm not trying to put you guys down, just pointing out where balance would break if you made these changes.

DRG is fine the only problem I have is Geriskulgol that skill makes me mad, it's like hey here is a great aoe that doesn't demolish your TP or have a hour long cd (looks at dragon fly dive)....but takes away from BOTD, as slow as DRGs attk you can do it like once every 2-3 full tier 4 combos...It would be better with taking 5secs always but 10 is just horrible cause you can barely keep it at 30secs and you can do a full combo in about 7-8secs depending on speed....sigh....rant over

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nihility

When I say this I am not approaching from a "I enjoy the mechanic" standpoint at all btw
Just from a strictly numbers "this skill introduces a larger margin of error for no benefit whatsoever"

---

This is a relatively fair form of criticism, I'll give you that. Objectively, it introduces an additional way to lower your dps by performing the class incorrectly without any notable bonus for performing properly outside of "I did the correct amount of damage."

However, that doesn't detract from the much more valid arguments which speak in favor of the skill. The introduction of this dynamic element to the most static melee dps class is a genius move on the part of the game developers. It's not a lazy decision - it's a deliberate one. They knew exactly where they wanted Dragoon to be. The problem was that putting us here without increasing the skill gap between good and great players of the class would be absolutely ludicrous.

Hence: Wheeling Thrust.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JackFross

My main argument against giving Dragoons a "fifth" skill (since we already get 5...) is that we're ALREADY one of the highest DPS classes in the game AND we bring Battle Litany to the field, which is a huge gain for the party, believe it or not. If you gave us something else, it's gonna fall into one of these categories:
1. Messes with the current *beautiful* rotation, making things wonky and gross.
2. New utility move that makes Dragoons more attractive than they already are (90% of raid groups run one because BL+BRD/MCH buff).
3. New worthless skill like Feint that will *never* be used outside of certain situations which would actually still end up falling under 2 if it's *useful*.
4. New oGCD skill to boost our dps by a marginal amount we don't need to be boosted by while forcing us to squeeze YET ANOTHER skill into the first 24s of the fight.

None of those options are good. I want none of that.

---

Let me quote myself again, because everyone seems to still be ignoring this point aside from the same people who get it and agree. Yes, there's a plethora of abilities you can give us. The argument is that we either DO NOT WANT them or DO NOT NEED them.

I'd rather have my extra button be used for a skill that makes the class more fun than have it be devoted to something useless or OP.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JackFross

I'd rather have my extra button be used for a skill that makes the class more fun than have it be devoted to something useless or OP.

---

Eh, speak for yourself. In an expansion, having 2 duplicate skills when we're getting a kit extension is kind of less than pleasing. The people who dislike the complications without benefit are right to dislike it, but that's not the worst thing. Once you get past the difficulty, it just seems like you could have really been given something else. And what you don't realize, is that it's not that black and white. It's not like they only make skills in the OP or useless variety. They're smart enough to come up with Enochian, BoTD, Chakra, Dreadwyrm Trance, and more, they most definitely could have come up with something useful for DRG at 58. Did we really need a 15% crit boost? We definitely lived without it, but now that we have it, you don't consider it useless or OP. So yes, while we may not 'need' anything, you never feel like you need something until you have it, then you wonder how you lived without it.

Again, this doesn't mean you have to remove WT, or make it a 5th hit, or those weird conclusions other people came to.

I still like the skill. The developers did an excellent job implementing it and designing it.

Reading this thread just reminds me why not everyone is a game designer and that most people have no idea what general balance and difficulty floors are and how important they are to the life of this game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nominous

Eh, speak for yourself.

---

Everyone kinda needs to take this into consideration to be honest. Both sides I mean because thats where it can get messy when you're tryin to convey a message or a point across.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nominous

In an expansion, having 2 duplicate skills when we're getting a kit extension is kind of less than pleasing. The people who dislike the complications without benefit are right to dislike it, but that's not the worst thing. Once you get past the difficulty, it just seems like you could have really been given something else.

---

Again, this can be applied for pretty much any other class, and even then, benefits are attached to it since you need to have it in the first place to be able to learn GS. Even for things like GB and WM. They're terrible when you learn it and when you break it down, all it honestly does is add "complexity" to the class, because the future skills you get are arbitrarily locked behind it (because if it wasn't otherwise, no one would ever use WM/GB for more than the 15 seconds it forces you to, if at all)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nominous

It's not like they only make skills in the OP or useless variety. They're smart enough to come up with Enochian, BoTD, Chakra, Dreadwyrm Trance, and more, they most definitely could have come up with something useful for DRG at 58. Did we really need a 15% crit boost? We definitely lived without it, but now that we have it, you don't consider it useless or OP. So yes, while we may not 'need' anything, you never feel like you need something until you have it, then you wonder how you lived without it.

---

It sort of is black and white when we're talking in reference to DRG the way it is now. Though it's even pointed out, if they had decided to give them another damage skill, buff or some sort of utility, they'd have to be redesigned to factor that when we're looking at their overall performance. DRG as is right now doesn't need anything more to make them more desirable than they are, and at this point if you made them get both WT/FnC at levle 56 with an extra skill at 58, you still end up with the functionally same DRG except adding another skill on top of that alongside with what they are already capable of.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dante_V

Reading this thread just reminds me why not everyone is a game designer and that most people have no idea what general balance and difficulty floors are and how important they are to the life of this game.

---

What a terribly condescending post.


Honestly, none of the people here are game designers, but you don't need to be a game designer to know when something feels off. The same way you don't need to be a doctor to tell someone they're sick. Now obviously, some people just aren't going to be happy with anything, and complain at any sense of difficulty, complexity, depth, or anything not straightforward or free. But if we're talking objectively, Wheeling Thrust still isn't the shining example of good game design and implementation. And it's obvious.

I won't speak for everyone, but no idea what general balance and difficulty floors are? Some people might not, but there's still intelligent people who'd agree that if you're going to give difficulty for something, there should be a benefit for the difficulty. It's basic game design logic. Headshots in FPS games are ridiculously hard to pull off without some skill or practice, but the benefit for this difficulty, is instant kill. Certain combos in fighting games are non-lenient and require great precision as well as execution. The benefit for that, is giving them higher damage, and sometimes better setups. Simple logic. Not to mention, making WT a simple 50/50 doesn't 'balance' the dps increase. It's not that difficult to deal with. BoTD and GK is the risk vs. reward system we got, WT is just... legitimately trying to confuse you with no perceived benefit for doing so. And my belief is, that's not the worst part. The worst part is that we had 5 skills to be given in HW, and one of those spots got wasted by a duplicate. Again, you can have the difficulty, the 50/50, and balance without putting WT at 58 when it could have potentially been other things.

Even looking at examples from our own game, look at SMN. It isn't the greatest DPS now, but look at what it got and how well it all syncs up with their job with NO duplicate skills. They got increased difficulty AND damage through Dreadwyrm Trance (like we got through BoTD), Ruin 3 which is only a DPS increase where it's meant to be used, Tri-Disaster is arguably broken, and has no negative impact on damage, Painflare has uses, and can be a DPS increase, and Deathflare is hilariously powerful. They have very obvious examples of things that are hilariously strong with very little drawback. WAR is another example of this. Deliverance and Fell Cleave? Where's the 'general balance and difficulty floor' there? It does nothing but increase the difficulty a healer has healing them, not their actual ability to play the job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

It sort of is black and white when we're talking in reference to DRG the way it is now. Though it's even pointed out, if they had decided to give them another damage skill, buff or some sort of utility, they'd have to be redesigned to factor that when we're looking at their overall performance. DRG as is right now doesn't need anything more to make them more desirable than they are, and at this point if you made them get both WT/FnC at levle 56 with an extra skill at 58, you still end up with the functionally same DRG except adding another skill on top of that alongside with what they are already capable of.

---

Like I said, you can't perceive everything you need until you have it. Some things are more obvious than others. Like the fact that MNK could definitely use more TP sustain. That was something that was obvious that they needed. DRG didn't really have that. We had great TP sustain, competitive DPS, and no real perceivable problems that weren't fixed through patches. 60 isn't going to be the max level forever, and you can bet that they'll add even more things we apparently, "Don't need". So really, that's not a strong point to make, that we "Don't need anything". We don't know that :).


And again, WT is not a "Gate" to anything like you keep insinuating. WT doesn't open up further possibilities or higher DPS. WM/GB are gates BECAUSE they become DPS increases once you get more skills. Even BoTD is more comparable to them, but definitely not WT. The best comparison to WT is probably Blizz 4 and Fire 4. Both have the same potency, require correct management (extra difficulty) but both have separate effects, benefits and detriments.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nominous

But if we're talking objectively, Wheeling Thrust still isn't the shining example of good game design and implementation. And it's obvious.

---

Objectively they could have done it better (which can be said for other jobs too, not just DRG), but the fact remains that WT still serves it's purpose in adding another check to differentiate a mediocre DRG from a good one.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nominous

I won't speak for everyone..

---

Then stop doing so, especially when some posts are directed to general people and not you specifically. Espesically when people want to add more things to the current state of DRG and not understand why they don't need to be better than the way they are now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nominous

... still intelligent people who'd agree that if you're going to give difficulty for something, there should be a benefit for the difficulty. Simple logic. Not to mention, making WT a simple 50/50 doesn't 'balance' the dps increase.

---

Again doesn't apply to just DRG. BRD and MCH get WM/GB that acts as a damage loss in a normal circumstance until they get more abilties added to it. The new abilties locked behind WM/GB are in the same sense as GS being locked behind WT since it all comes together under a common mechanic (specifically BotD).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nominous

The worst part is that we had 5 skills to be given in HW, and one of those spots got wasted by a duplicate. Again, you can have the difficulty, the 50/50, and balance without putting WT at 58 when it could have potentially been other things.

---

DRG is not unique in this case so I don't get why it's such a big problem for them, especially when there are also skills that are flat out wasted because it serves no practical use and actively detriments some of the jobs for trying to use it. Yes it can be a better thing, but at this point and with the current state of DRG, it really feels like this is a problem only because you don't have an extra skill that possibly isn't needed to begin with. when every other job has 5 skills (or effectively 4)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nominous

but look at what it got and how well it all syncs up with their job with NO duplicate skills.

---

If you really want to bring up other jobs, some have it far worse than DRG where their playstyle has not changed at all, being broken at some points and hell, two different jobs that have a lvl 52 skill that is functionally the same in every aspect. At this point I'm really tempted to say "get over it" if duplicated skills is a problem and bring up other jobs in comparison,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nominous

They have very obvious examples of things that are hilariously strong with very little drawback. Where's the 'general balance and difficulty floor' there? It does nothing but increase the difficulty a healer has healing them, not their actual ability to play the job.

---

Difficulty is subjective, as well as what people find to be fun. You have people who like DRG the way it plays now with WT/FnC's interaction with BotD. I actually prefer MCH even though argubily a good wildfire is harder to pull off than a buffed-barrage on BRD. Heck you have people that are actively preferring BLM over SMN despite enochian busting their stones. This honestly doesn't have much relevance to bring up in comparison, but considering that it;s a new expansion, you sorta need to add something new to evolve the jobs from their 2.0 counterpart. Difficulty is to the player's expectations and preference.

You're bringing up so many perspectives I'm not even sure what you want right now. Do you want an extra skill on DRG? Do you want it to be "easier" on the same level of SMN/WAR because the idea of skill flooring is poorly executed?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nominous

Like I said, you can't perceive everything you need until you have it. Some things are more obvious than others. Like the fact that MNK could definitely use more TP sustain. That was something that was obvious that they needed. DRG didn't really have that.

---

Then please stop perceiving WT by itself, but rather with everything at level 60.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nominous

Don't need". So really, that's not a strong point to make, that we "Don't need anything". We don't know that :).

---

You don't need anything in the current state of the game. You don't especially need more dps, mobility, survivability or utility compared to other melees because quite frankly DRG has it pretty well in in all of those areas compared to NIN and MNK.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nominous

And again, WT is not a "Gate" to anything like you keep insinuating. WT doesn't open up further possibilities or higher DPS. WM/GB are gates BECAUSE they become DPS increases once you get more skills.

---

WT opens up GS, unless you're going to tell me that you learn GS without ever learning WT. WM/GB are gates because the skills are locked behind learning and using said ability.

I think a lot of this is just trying to justify an argument that doesn't really need to be justified, on both accounts. It's a matter of perspective. Some people feel shafted about WT, others like it the way it is. It doesn't change the outcome though, they probably aren't going to redesign DRG, not because it's right or wrong but because this is a personal belief people have. It's not something that needs to be changed in order to fix DRG. It's not broken - I'm sure both sides would agree on that. The best we can hope for is they listen to everyone's feedback and keep that in mind for the future.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

stuffs

---

Well, for one, you're replying to a post that I'm not really quoting you on. That was a different argument entirely, for a different purpose, so of course there's different things being discussed. Different points to prove, or speak on. It's not a matter of wanting different things, just different facets of the same issue.


Two, I continue to reiterate that I don't speak for everyone because of silly accusations like you're making. It's too easy for someone to think that I am, even if I clearly say "In my opinion" or explicitly stating I'm not. I use 'we' as a way to define DRG, because I am one, not because of any plans to speak for others. And further on that point, just because I (I'm not sure if you were trying to allude to me there) feel as if one skill could have been dealt with differently doesn't mean all of a sudden I think DRG is awful, or not where they need to be.

You continue to make strange conclusions based on what I'm saying. I never say, or allude to the idea that DRG is a crap job. I never insinuate that we need something more than we've got. I'm saying it would have been nice to have 5 all new abilities, as opposed to 4, with one that only has the actual purpose of giving us challenge. I'm not sure how that translates into, "We need more!"

It's like if someone brings you Pokemon Blue for your birthday, and someone else brings you Pokemon Red. It's not like you can't see that Red has some difference, however slight. It's not even about the strength of the two games collectively, or the franchise at all. It's as simple as just wanting to have two separate games or gifts for your birthday. Same concept I'm trying to explain with WT.