RIP MNK 1.x - 5.x

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Originally Posted by AndieEldritch

"The gameplay element of stacking Greased Lightning will be done away with

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Take the whole thing as it is. The GAMEPLAY element of stacking GL is gone. The gameplay element of stacking GL is gone and has been gone for a while, turned into a trait, that is passive and arguably, not a gameplay element.

Honestly if they didn't make the changes to smn they did, changes I have wanted since 2.0 when I first picked smn up due to having all other jobs capped in 1.x and subsequently fell in love with, I would 100% be giving monk an actual shot with these changes, up until now I barely did enough to level cap it, in fact in shb I took it from 70-80 via pixie tribe quests alone.

It sounds like its going to make the job so much more interesting than, gotta get behind them, now to the left, go back again, now to the right, oh crud the tank is spinning everything and my dps is going into the toilet! Help me Cid!

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Originally Posted by AndieEldritch

Saw that on the other thread, good to know.

Still feels confusing that they would mention it in the way they did. "The gameplay element of stacking Greased Lightning will be done away with - So to compensate for that Chakras will be unlocked at a lower level." as if it was still there. Miscommunication I suppose.

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It also makes no sense to me... My best guess is perhaps the Greased Lightning I-III traits get the delete, and we have Greased Lightning IV from the start, or some thing...

As for Chakra, being unlocked at Lv54, I wonder just how much lower is lower...

Also, a bit of a mean joke, a thing that I did notice. EndWalker Monk is more or less just ARR Monk Mark (VI? ARR, HW, SB, ShB, 5.4, now 6.0), at this point... Chakra brought below Lv50?, Blitz at Lv50?,(unless Perfect Balance is no longer a Lv50 action) from a re-design of Perfect Balance...
Monk is still ARR Monk, just ARR Monk Mark (how-ever many times it has had a rework), and I dare say one of the best versions of ARR Monk, if we compare this new version of ARR Monk to previous ARR Monk versions.

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Originally Posted by SpeckledBurd

As long as the potency isn't massively out of place elsewhere, 120 second Brotherhood is actually an improvement. One of the issues with Brotherhood at a top end is that a 90 second burst window doesn't align with most raidbuffs since they're in 1 or 2 minute increments. This lets Monk work better with other jobs.

Riddle of Wind looks like a replacement for something at a lower level since they've gutted a decent amount of the kit at lower level to rework it. There's a possibility that the "Fists of..." still exist at lower level, but now as buffs and they get upgraded to the Riddles at later levels, however that's just speculation on my part and it could just be a replacement for something that's completely gone.

As for replacing Arm of the Destroyer with an upgrade... well they sometimes do that to throw in a trait. Since Monk seemingly has a lot more in store than the standard 80-90 3 skills and 2 traits I'm willing to look past a changed animation. Plus it's massively better than the last time they did this with Tackle Mastery which didn't even change the animation.

Overall I'm still just waiting for the liveletter. Compared to Shadowbringers/Stormblood what they've showed is really promising, there's no major red flags that I can see, and they've given us decent explanations of what's going on with nearly everything but Anatman. I'll save flipping out until then.

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I agree. It has been a long road to promising Monk changes. I have seen you post about Monk over the years, and it is nice to be hopeful with you.

The skill replacing arm of the destroyer looks cool (though I liked arm too) but... omg rockbreaker looks SO bad. I am actually kind of annoyed the first two aoes look so cool then our finisher is that derpy looking flash.

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Originally Posted by Andy_T93

Sounds like you re advocating purely from the PoV of endgame content

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This isn't really from a purely endgame perspective, and more from a "wanting to be engaged by the game" perspective. Positionals, in addition to the original GL system, is why I mained monk for two expansions. No other job felt the way monk did to me. I liked being on the move constantly, it encouraged aggressive play in a way that literally no other DPS does. That, and I can't stand jobs where I just stand and deliver.

Short of bosses putting up AoEs, or mechanics demanding you move out of melee range, or the aforementioned tank griefing, missing positionals is your fault. If you don't want to miss them, get better at them. Recognize there are times where you can't hit them no matter what, but that when you can, you should. That's what makes the difference between average monks and the ones who perform better than the rest of us.

From my perspective, you're advocating from a perspective of not wanting to actually put in the effort that players better than us do, while still wantiong to be rewarded just the same, and that's pretty terrible for any game, not just this one. SE spent literally years doing that for this and other jobs and none of it has actually worked anyway, while also adding onto the problems that multiple jobs still face going into Endwalker.

Also: if you have a tank that is new, explain to them how to do something if they're making mistakes that affect you as well. If you're not helping players when they make serious mistakes, especially in a raid setting, you might be content to just let them keep screwing over other DPS in the raid, but other players won't be. It also makes the concern you showed earlier for tanks spinning mobs endlessly feel pretty hollow. Why even bring it up? Is it or is not an actual problem? There are still going to be positionals in EW, and there will still be newbie or griefing tanks spinning bosses.

One of those you can correct. The other, you report and move on.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

Edit: Just went to do a rotation without using the True Strike and Twin Snake positionals, and guess what? Absolutely makes ZERO difference. Because you will still do positionals for two of your abilities every 3 hit combo, you are mostly already in the correct position for them anyway. The change makes absolutely no difference to anything. If you like the positionals, breathe. Nothing really changed. If you don't like the positionals, suffer, because nothing really changed.

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Did you pay attention at all to the discussion regarding the removal of the positional requirements on those two skills? They explicitly stated that the reason they were removed was so that you can use them during perfect balance, getting your blitz charged up without having to dance back and forth between every skill. They weren't removed for ease of play.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

The new dash skill is 100% welcome to me. I didn't like using my only mobility option for damage, so I appreciate that they gave it a damage-less gapcloser to cement it as the quick footed fighter.

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I may be in the minority here, but I have a feeling this will be a skill I almost never use. I can see it being very handy for PC players not using a controller, but the process of targeting a party member to teleport was already not great for controller on black mage, and if the point to use it is to greed more up time, the process of targeting a party member from the list on the controller, then executing the skill will largely negate any benefit it might have had. I'll still work as a gap closer, but that's about it.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Did you pay attention at all to the discussion regarding the removal of the positional requirements on those two skills? They explicitly stated that the reason they were removed was so that you can use them during perfect balance, getting your blitz charged up without having to dance back and forth between every skill. They weren't removed for ease of play.

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A change made so that we can act "without having to dance back and forth between every skill" is not a change made for ease of play? Really?

We already did that with every form of Perfect Balance to date, including under tighter and more punishing constraints, and we did just fine. And it's not as if those two skills lost their positionals only during Perfect Balance; they're just plain gone.

Personally, I'm fine with True Strike losing its positional. Losing Twin, too, seems a bit overkill, but whatever. But let's not pretend that intent remotely matters to any iteration of job design save in that it may accelerate the next iteration. Whether they wanted this to somehow only be used for PB or not is irrelevant when their change was to remove it at all times, not just during PB.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

I may be in the minority here, but I have a feeling this will be a skill I almost never use. I can see it being very handy for PC players not using a controller, but the process of targeting a party member to teleport was already not great for controller on black mage, and if the point to use it is to greed more up time, the process of targeting a party member from the list on the controller, then executing the skill will largely negate any benefit it might have had. I'll still work as a gap closer, but that's about it.

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On this, agreed. I would have preferred instead for my Tackle to become a backstep when (well) within melee range. Simpler, cleaner, more intuitive.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

A change made so that we can act "without having to dance back and forth between every skill" is not a change made for ease of play? Really?

We already did that with every form of Perfect Balance to date, including under tighter and more punishing constraints, and we did just fine. And it's not as if those two skills lost their positionals only during Perfect Balance; they're just plain gone.

Personally, I'm fine with True Strike losing its positional. Losing Twin, too, seems a bit overkill, but whatever. But let's not pretend that intent remotely matters to any iteration of job design save in that it may accelerate the next iteration. Whether they wanted this to somehow only be used for PB or not is irrelevant when their change was to remove it at all times, not just during PB.

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Poorly worded I'll admit... but as it is now I mainly see people using True North in conjuction with the Perfect Balance burst.

My point was the removal seems to be to allow ease of use of blitzes even if it does nothing to change the positions we go to in the normal combo. It may just be muscle memory, but I can't see myself treating them as though they had no positional outside of blitzing since you still have the same requirements on the other four moves. Movement won't be terribly impacted by their loss. So when he complained that the removal of the positional changed nothing when he tested it as-is on a striking dummy, that to me seems like removing two without really changing anything about the core rotation of the job.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

My point was the removal seems to be to allow ease of use of blitzes even if it does nothing to change the positions we go to in the normal combo. It may just be muscle memory, but I can't see myself treating them as though they had no positional outside of blitzing since you still have the same requirements on the other four moves.

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I mean it's literally a free GCD per three-form-cycle by which to move from back to flank. If you used Boot, you've got an extra GCD to get in place for Snap. If you used Dragon, you've got an extra GCD to get in place for Demo. In certain rotations where it'd time out about the same anyways, it might not amount to much, but no positionals on ANY Raptor Form skill is still... pretty significant.

...I guess my main peeve with this change is that it doesn't fix the lead issue in that unlike in ToD and Fracture a la ARR/HW, these non-positionals aren't also Any-Form and therefore the advantage they grant is largely subject to luck of timing. If we wanted to actually fix the issue, the obvious solution would have been to give a formless short CD (probably with a couple charges) on a single GCD (unlike SSS) by which to use the given GCD and/or modulate the length of any rotational string or to simply offer a "safety" mechanic, such as building stacks over time by which our positionals would count as having hit successfully even if they don't (consuming that stack).

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Poorly worded I'll admit... but as it is now I mainly see people using True North in conjuction with the Perfect Balance burst.

My point was the removal seems to be to allow ease of use of blitzes even if it does nothing to change the positions we go to in the normal combo. It may just be muscle memory, but I can't see myself treating them as though they had no positional outside of blitzing since you still have the same requirements on the other four moves. Movement won't be terribly impacted by their loss. So when he complained that the removal of the positional changed nothing when he tested it as-is on a striking dummy, that to me seems like removing two without really changing anything about the core rotation of the job.

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It's also telling that the two skills that lost their positionals are the middle skills in each combo/rotation so if you are opening with Dragon kick (flank) twin snakes (any) demolish (rear) Bootshine (rear) True Strike (any) Snap Punch (Flank) you can essentially execute Twin snakes and true strike while on the move moving from flank to rear and vice versa. Ultimately from a positional POV the opening rotation of the GCD is now:

F,A,R,R,A,F which means you only have to move twice, You could essentially go to the flank for dragon kick then move to the rear for twin snakes, demolish, boot shine and true strike moving back to the flank for snap punch. In other you can be F,R,R,R,R,F so only moving twice

These two skills were definitely picked to prick up the constant moving from one to another to allow players to get into position with more time

I welcome the change out of all classes mnk has stayed consistent and only changed slightly over the expansions. It's nice to have a change.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I mean it's literally a free GCD per three-form-cycle by which to move from back to flank. If you used Boot, you've got an extra GCD to get in place for Snap. If you used Dragon, you've got an extra GCD to get in place for Demo. In certain rotations where it'd time out about the same anyways, it might not amount to much, but no positionals on ANY Raptor Form skill is still... pretty significant.

...I guess my main peeve with this change is that it doesn't fix the lead issue in that unlike in ToD and Fracture a la ARR/HW, these non-positionals aren't also Any-Form and therefore the advantage they grant is largely subject to luck of timing. If we wanted to actually fix the issue, the obvious solution would have been to give a formless short CD (probably with a couple charges) on a single GCD (unlike SSS) by which to use the given GCD and/or modulate the length of any rotational string or to simply offer a "safety" mechanic, such as building stacks over time by which our positionals would count as having hit successfully even if they don't (consuming that stack).

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Riddle of Earth and True North are still on Yoshida's hotbars when he showed it off. But that also assumes that the skills are fundamentally unchanged. So we do have what you're talking about, Riddle of Earth stacks three times, is OGCD and gives you the next three skills as being non-positional. So we already have what you're talking about but better than before not only because of the frequency and ease of use, but also because they don't take a ridiculous amount of TP (which no longer exists, buts till was a problem in Heavensward)

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Originally Posted by Andy_T93

This has become a bit aggressive everyone has their opinions

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Nobody has ever said something against opinions, but a lot of arguments against positionals are inconsistent or made by ppl without much experience / who don´t even try.

- There are claims like "positionals don´t bring anything to the gameplay". But imagine there are a lot of players who like them and would miss them, because it´s atleast a small challenge and a bunch of movement in an 98% braindead and static game. Of course MNK needed a new mechanic, but that doesn´t mean, that positionals should go away, even if those are only 2 imo. They do bring much more to the gameplay then pressing 123 over and over again to fill a gauge until you can press 4.

- Then you´ve claims like "positionals are easy to play". So why does ppl don´t get used to them so easily? I´ve never got an answer on this, the reason seems obvious.

- Or "i hate playing positionals". Fine... but MNK has always been about them. Why don´t you pick another class? "Because i like some aesthetics."
But in the next moment: "MNK has no finisher and need better aesthetics".
And ok, why don´t you just ignore positionals then? They´re not needed in any content out of savage / ultimate. -> Still no answer on this and guess what? I can easily spy such guys and know, that they don´t even play the endgame and are not even good players, for sure.

- Lately someone special here was like "get ride of positionals pls" too, but in the next self-made thread he´s asking "what´s the purpose of anatman". Really? Does it sounds experienced or something?
Or the same guy is like "I hate positionals on MNK, but love them on DRG." Sooooo... play Dragoon?!

- Or like we´ve seen in this thread, ppl have never really played, tried or did math, tested stuff, whatever... but let´s claim that MNK positionals are irrelevant, because it´s only a 5% damage loss. Like what?
And even if that would be a thing, what in gods name hinders you to ignore them, when they´re useless anyway in your eyes?


Maybe you´ve some answers?

Nobody will say something against an opinion, but stuff like this doesn´t make sense. Such ppl just spread false informations or lie on purpose, just to find some arguments against positionals, which doesn´t show "i´m a bad player, i´m lazy".
I´ve never seen any MNK main complain like "We don´t want new mechanics."
It was needed. But what we want is that ALL positionals should stay as they are imo. And of course it would be kind to get a new and UNIQUE mechanic and not just the Meikyo Mudra we´ll get with blitz. 6.0 MNK will be more similar to other melees and will be easier to play. Even then... i wouldn´t be surprised, that the same ppl show up like "bäääh MNK", "bäääh positionals" in endwalker.

The acceptance of ppl, who don´t like anything about a class in this game, is a joke. I dislike SMN and DNC the most for a bunch of reasons, but do i complain about it? Do i want to get them changed for my own favor? No, i just don´t play them, unless i want to get an achievement or so. My better half for example is playing healer only, because everything else is either too boring or doesn´t match her playstyle. Does she complain? No... and so do millions of players, who can accept that a game has to offer different stuff for different ppl. SE needs to stop to cater the ignorance of some lefthanded players out there, seriously.

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Originally Posted by IruruCece

It's a multiplayer game, part of the challenge is working with other players. Report tanks for griefing if they refuse to stop spinning the boss, it works, and they get an un-eraseable mark on their account that can lead to a permaban. And honestly, report any player who griefs like this, because they bring down the quality of the gameplay experience for everyone else. I don't care how long they've played, I don't care how much time they've put into their character, they deserve the ban and can start all over again for being a jackass.

Speaking frankly though, that's a dungeon/alliance raids problem/normal raids roullette, which aren't really designed to test anyone's skill. If you're worried about parses during that content... you're probably stressing over absolutely nothing. Even the most uncoordinated groups can faceroll through If you're actually doing endgame content, a tank that is purposefully griefing their DPS isn't going to last very long in the group, and if they happen to be the person who started the group, people will leave it rather than deal with their BS.

Removing something from the game just because there's a set of players who will purposefully work to ruin the experience of others is not and should never be the correct solution for any job. Ban the players who are abusing others.

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Your whole view is not grounded in reality, it is simply idealistic thinking. The REALITY is you are in no control over whether what a tank may decide to do, but what they do affects your damage. That is a designflaw for monk more than ny other as every ability is a positional. Reality says the tank doesn't care about your ideals, the tank will play how he wants to play. And don't come with this, "BuT iT IsNt SaVaGe!", cmon even in the normals people want to do some damage.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

- Lately someone special here was like "get ride of positionals pls" too, but in the next self-made thread he´s asking "what´s the purpose of anatman". Really? Does it sounds experienced or something?
Or the same guy is like "I hate positionals on MNK, but love them on DRG." Sooooo... play Dragoon?!

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Hello my guy...

Anatman IS pointless. Just form shift. That MINIMAL gain over a long fight IS pointless. You can argue, but it is never going to make thta much of a difference.
Also, just because you don't like what I am saying, doesn't make it an invalid point, get off your high horse yeah. A lot of you think you are some kind gods at this game, but seemingly never played anything else. You don't know how this game can be better because you don't know how these kinds of games work, YOU are in fact the inexperienced one.

Where does the "spin 2 win tank" belief even stem from? These posts bringing them up greatly exaggerate their uncommon occurrence and act like it isn't anything more than a mild inconvenience so long as they aren't griefing. Even if that was the case, that's a problem with that specific player, not a problem with a feature on an entirely unrelated role.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Riddle of Earth and True North are still on Yoshida's hotbars when he showed it off. But that also assumes that the skills are fundamentally unchanged. So we do have what you're talking about, Riddle of Earth stacks three times, is OGCD and gives you the next three skills as being non-positional. So we already have what you're talking about but better than before

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Yes, but that's precisely my point. Given those tools... why remove the positionals from all Raptor skills?

It might make sense, QoL-wise, to essentially turn RoE into a simple stack system as I described before, but short of that... what use do we have for a form losing positionals?

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Originally Posted by Navnav

Hello my guy...

Anatman IS pointless. Just form shift. That MINIMAL gain over a long fight IS pointless. You can argue, but it is never going to make thta much of a difference.
Also, just because you don't like what I am saying, doesn't make it an invalid point, get off your high horse yeah. A lot of you think you are some kind gods at this game, but seemingly never played anything else. You don't know how this game can be better because you don't know how these kinds of games work, YOU are in fact the inexperienced one.

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minimal gain ≠ no gain

Monk has historically been the king of minimally useful, niche skills there to act as a bandaid on the mechanic that was greased lightning. The fact that you're unaware of this and are constantly on here criticizing the job because of its core identity without knowing what its skills are for really proves ssunny's point that actually you're the inexperienced one.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Yes, but that's precisely my point. Given those tools... why remove the positionals from all Raptor skills?

It might make sense, QoL-wise, to essentially turn RoE into a simple stack system as I described before, but short of that... what use do we have for a form losing positionals?

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Riddle of Earth is a stack system, so I'm not sure what you're asking for... you get three stacks of it currently. I can't defend the loss of the positionals based off the blitz mechanic any better, though, since we don't know too much about how the system will operate yet, only to say that the devs stated that this was the reason they were removed from those two skills. We'll be able to weigh in more as to if they actually needed to do it once we get to play with it.

Riddle of Earth and True North seem like a poor band-aid fix when they could just remove positionals and save players button bloat. I can see RoE being nice for raid progression on damage mitigation at full stacks but overall it seems it's more about having no positionals during spin the boss or boss mechanics.

Maybe I'll level cap Monk in EW if it proves to be more fun then tedious.

I could see merit in positionals if meeting the requirement gives you new attacks or dbls base potency.

And I think the plan is to give Monks their burst if they do positionals under Perfect Balance?

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Originally Posted by Navnav

Hello my guy...

Anatman IS pointless. Just form shift. That MINIMAL gain over a long fight IS pointless. You can argue, but it is never going to make thta much of a difference.

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Why should i argue about that? I read the skill at its rework and the first thing in my mind was "ok, bye anatman". It might be useful in 1% of all content so.
But gratz that you´ve found that out by asking ppl here.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

Also, just because you don't like what I am saying, doesn't make it an invalid point, get off your high horse yeah. A lot of you think you are some kind gods at this game, but seemingly never played anything else. You don't know how this game can be better because you don't know how these kinds of games work, YOU are in fact the inexperienced one.

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You make you own points invalid by claiming controversial things and being unexperienced with classes you actually want to rework. You don´t even play the endgame much, the only thing in this game where a good performance is needed. Again, don´t play positionals on MNK?! What´s the point to ignore them in braindead content aka dungeons, bozja, everything in the daily-roulette, treasure maps, fates...

And imagine i´ve more gaming experience than the tripled age of this game. I do even like sitting on my high horse, together with my pack of skills, fast class and mechanic understanding and overall gameplay experience.
But of course, you´re right. I don´t know how to make this game better for lazy players. To create a 1 button game with rewards for free and animations kids find "super-duper-UwU-tastic" is under my dignity. I´m a real gamer, someone who learns classes and mechanics, someone who picks the challenge, someone who works for his rewards and someone who can accept, that not every class is made for everyone.
I can´t be proud to stay on dumb downed meta classes, or to show others my cool mount i´ve "achieved" with wall to wall gangbang, unsynched runs or while i got carried by other players or the content itself.

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Originally Posted by Navnav

Your whole view is not grounded in reality, it is simply idealistic thinking. The REALITY is you are in no control over whether what a tank may decide to do, but what they do affects your damage. That is a designflaw for monk more than ny other as every ability is a positional. Reality says the tank doesn't care about your ideals, the tank will play how he wants to play. And don't come with this, "BuT iT IsNt SaVaGe!", cmon even in the normals people want to do some damage.

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How about dancer? Are you sure your dancepartner plays well? Or bard with his songs? What about ANY other raidbuffs so far? MNK, RDM, DRG, NIN, AST?
What if a healer forgets to heal? What if your stackpartner doesn´t stack? What if you´re the bad guy, who lies at the ground and the group is wiping because of it?

Questions over questions and one simple answer... IT`S A TEAMGAME.... and shit happens. If you don´t want to rely on other players, don´t play a MMORPG. (MM means Massiv Multiplayer!!!)

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

Where does the "spin 2 win tank" belief even stem from? These posts bringing them up greatly exaggerate their uncommon occurrence and act like it isn't anything more than a mild inconvenience so long as they aren't griefing. Even if that was the case, that's a problem with that specific player, not a problem with a feature on an entirely unrelated role.

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I´ve had one time someone in syrcus tower who did that on purpose. Spamming the ranged attack to stay high in aggro and moving in a circle. But seriously i can even understand the borderness to play such content over and over again especially since the tank dumbdowns, so who cares? Even as OT in savage i run my own circles, because you had nothing to do this tier. Man that was funny together with my old dancer... sometimes i even got dancebuddy.
And at the first SHB instance, i went afk to make a cup of tea. When i came back, i still tanked the endboss. Insane experience....

It happens once in ages to get such a guy, the most others who struggle a bit are newcomers. But if you teach them, all is fine. Ppl just exaggerating things like always, and of course it´s always the others or the games fault.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

Why should i argue about that? I read the skill at its rework and the first thing in my mind was "ok, bye anatman". It might be useful in 1% of all content so.
But gratz that you´ve found that out by asking ppl here.

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As much as I love monk I dont think the devs really know what they actually want from it. I mean a good 80% of skills that have been added have been either situational or borderline useless(I mean on release of new skills not after patches/overhauls) . Don't get me wrong I love monk and it's still my main but i'd just like a fresher coat of paint on the class. Saying that I think this update might be that as it does sound interesting.

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Originally Posted by Masekase_Hurricane

As much as I love monk I dont think the devs really know what they actually want from it. I mean a good 80% of skills that have been added have been either situational or borderline useless(I mean on release of new skills not after patches/overhauls) . Don't get me wrong I love monk and it's still my main but i'd just like a fresher coat of paint on the class. Saying that I think this update might be that as it does sound interesting.

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I know what you mean and as i´ve said, i´m ok with the new mechanic, but still sceptical. Imo i just don´t see the need why raptor positionals have to go. MNK seems less busier than it is now. And i would still prefer something new. At any reworks it´s in my brain like "just another gauge". SMN got the same... you get your crystals, press 1 button. We´ve this on any classes and either you collect some points with your rotation, you use 3 skills in an order or in case of WHM, you´re infight.
I don´t know why SE lost their creativity. Stuff like mudra, the old AST cards, positionals or different pets for different circumstances has been great.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

I know what you mean and as i´ve said, i´m ok with the new mechanic, but still sceptical. Imo i just don´t see the need why raptor positionals have to go. MNK seems less busier than it is now. And i would still prefer something new. At any reworks it´s in my brain like "just another gauge". SMN got the same... you get your crystals, press 1 button. We´ve this on any classes and either you collect some points with your rotation, you use 3 skills in an order or in case of WHM, you´re infight.
I don´t know why SE lost their creativity. Stuff like mudra, the old AST cards, positionals or different pets for different circumstances has been great.

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I think all of us kind of felt that same thing. Monks in most games just didn't have a lot for them to go off of when creating new job skills and identities. So it's fair to have them look at the job and just think monk hit hard and... uhhh...?

I kind of had thought Tifa's mechanics from FF7R would have been a decent, if boring, add to the game. Build up stacks of a skill, like how we used to with greased lightning, then spend those on a high power combo, think like the gunbreaker ammo combo, except with monk you would have to have all three stacks of resources to do all three moves. But even that's kind of dull. So I'm glad they tried to figure out how to make Sabin's mechanic work. Just need to see more before I can get an opinion of if this is a good update to the job or just another failed attempt....

but at least this is a bigger attempt than they've really ever made.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Riddle of Earth is a stack system, so I'm not sure what you're asking for... you get three stacks of it currently.

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Sorry, I should have been more clear. I just meant removing the button-bloat and weave cost of RoE in favor of a passively generated stack system for which each stack (to a max of, say, 3 stored) forgives a missed positional. That to me would be a sensible change, far more so than Raptor's lost positionals, which were neither needed nor happen to solve anything (since you'd still be dependent on lucky timing).

Personally, I feel that the 3 charges of RoE, each lasting a whopping 10s, is already highly overkill, but I'd have no issue with a faint measure of lenience that could then actually combat unexpected mob-spinning.

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Originally Posted by ssunny2008

I don´t know why SE lost their creativity. Stuff like mudra, the old AST cards, positionals or different pets for different circumstances has been great.

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I don't think it's a question of SE losing their creativity, it's them listening to feedback, and the feedback on those things you mentioned hasn't been overwhelming positive. Even if you remove say the more 'casual opinions' shall we say and just focus on like the raiding community.

Mudra's: hated due to their ping reliance, causing many of the moves to just be outright ignored (Raiton didn't have a reason to be used for 6 years in this game up until the rework dropped). They tried to up the speed of the oGCD mudra system but they never could get it to the point where high ping players could play it optimally.

Old Ast cards: disliked due to the balance and meta issues they helped create. They tried on several occasions to even the numbers, nerfing the balance, reworking spear. But nothing ever topped the spread balance meta.

Positional: multiple problems that many people had with raids where positionals became exceedingly difficult so much to the point that any time an omni positional boss is dropped in a savage tier it makes every melee shout with glee. Even after numerous additions like stacks of true north, earths reply, and removing the requirements for critical abilities like trick attack, many players just have hated the need for them.

I don't mean to diminish those who liked these mechanics, but I'm seeing a lot of talk that SE has lost creativity and simply given up and bowed down to casual player bases here, and simply put it isn't true. Every system that has seen a big change in Shawdowbringer and Endwalker is the result of SE having gone through years of trial and error and player feedback and them coming up with something to try and address it, and that hasn't just been casual player feedback. It's been feedback from savage players, and the bigger voices in the games influencer area.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

I don't mean to diminish those who liked these mechanics, but I'm seeing a lot of talk that SE has lost creativity and simply given up and bowed down to casual player bases here, and simply put it isn't true. Every system that has seen a big change in Shawdowbringer and Endwalker is the result of SE having gone through years of trial and error and player feedback and them coming up with something to try and address it, and that hasn't just been casual player feedback. It's been feedback from savage players, and the bigger voices in the games influencer area.

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It takes damn near malicious compliance to arrive at many of those "answers" to player feedback, though...

"Hi, I'd like my kit not to be unnecessarily clunky or lacking in any competitive reason to be taken over others in the same role," for instance =/= "I'd sure love to lose most of my uniqueness and merely exchange one manner of clunkiness only for another (that is even worse at lower ping) only to still lack any competitive reason to be taken over others in the same role."

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It takes damn near malicious compliance to arrive at many of those "answers" to player feedback, though...

"Hi, I'd like my kit not to be unnecessarily clunky or lacking in any competitive reason to be taken over others in the same role," for instance =/= "I'd sure love to lose most of my uniqueness and merely exchange one manner of clunkiness only for another (that is even worse at lower ping) only to still lack any competitive reason to be taken over others in the same role."

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I assume you are talking about the NIN changes seeing as the only part of my post that referenced Ping was the Mudra rework. If not you can ignore my response.

Your acting like they literally just table flipped in response to the first request of a rework and that was it, when we both know that isn't true. In terms of the Mudra's if I'm remembering my patches correctly it was 6 and a half years between initial NIN release to the GCD Mudra rework of Shadowbringers, and between that there was either 3 or 4 attempts to speed up the workings of the Mudra in different patches (along with the actual changes to Ninja as a job each expansion). Maybe that doesn't seem much like to you, and maybe the fact that the end result doesn't please you makes all those attempts mean absolutely nothing, but the dev team did try to make honest attempts at fixing it. (And this goes for every other change they have done that I listed above).


As for lacking any competitive reason to be taken over others in the same role... uhhh.... what? Ninja is literally the highest overall rDPS on average on that site not to be mentioned over all 4 fights of the recent savage tier right now. It's a freaking competitive job.

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Originally Posted by Rika007

I assume you are talking about the NIN changes seeing as the only part of my post that referenced Ping was the Mudra rework. If not you can ignore my response.

Your acting like they literally just table flipped in response to the first request of a rework and that was it, when we both know that isn't true. In terms of the Mudra's if I'm remembering my patches correctly it was 6 and a half years between initial NIN release to the GCD Mudra rework of Shadowbringers, and between that there was either 3 or 4 attempts to speed up the workings of the Mudra in different patches (along with the actual changes to Ninja as a job each expansion). Maybe that doesn't seem much like to you, and maybe the fact that the end result doesn't please you makes all those attempts mean absolutely nothing, but the dev team did try to make honest attempts at fixing it. (And this goes for every other change they have done that I listed above).


As for lacking any competitive reason to be taken over others in the same role... uhhh.... what? Ninja is literally the highest overall rDPS on average on that site not to be mentioned over all 4 fights of the recent savage tier right now. It's a freaking competitive job.

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Well said.

While I know I was one for keeping all positionals, however, at this point they probably aren't going to be adding them, so I will wait until I get my hands on the job myself and try it out. I will then form my conclusion as to whether it was a good idea or not.

Chances are, I'm still going to be hitting the raptor positionals just out of pure habit, so it should be easy to tell if the removal was needed.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

I think all of us kind of felt that same thing. Monks in most games just didn't have a lot for them to go off of when creating new job skills and identities. So it's fair to have them look at the job and just think monk hit hard and... uhhh...?

I kind of had thought Tifa's mechanics from FF7R would have been a decent, if boring, add to the game. Build up stacks of a skill, like how we used to with greased lightning, then spend those on a high power combo, think like the gunbreaker ammo combo, except with monk you would have to have all three stacks of resources to do all three moves. But even that's kind of dull. So I'm glad they tried to figure out how to make Sabin's mechanic work. Just need to see more before I can get an opinion of if this is a good update to the job or just another failed attempt....

but at least this is a bigger attempt than they've really ever made.

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Too be honest i'd have been happy with this skill changes to this at x lvl. Monk doesnt need much and what it's had from ARR works. As for skills that slow u down/niche skills like six sided star i'd rather just have a weaker skill than a penalty.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

While I know I was one for keeping all positionals, however, at this point they probably aren't going to be adding them, so I will wait until I get my hands on the job myself and try it out. I will then form my conclusion as to whether it was a good idea or not.

Chances are, I'm still going to be hitting the raptor positionals just out of pure habit, so it should be easy to tell if the removal was needed.

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LMAO I can see myself still doing the positionals too

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Originally Posted by Rika007

I don't think it's a question of SE losing their creativity, it's them listening to feedback, and the feedback on those things you mentioned hasn't been overwhelming positive.

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They do lost their creativity, no matter if you call it based on feedback on not.

About the named things... of course not everyone might like them, but they´re / have been unique. That players were never able to make real use of them is up to 2 points. Either the players were just not good enough or the content failed.
The perfect example in MMO´s is the good old range advantage. And that´s why normally melees have a higher damage scaling, cc and more stuff to protect themselves, meanwhile ranges have support utilities and kiting possibilities. I miss both pretty much and only phys. ranges has less DPS meanwhile SAM is still broken for whatever reason. And yes, i can´t count the roleskills really... they´re pretty useless and the content doesn´t really force their use. (Of course i use them, but common... you know what i mean.)


Anyway, the thing is that SE, or at least some voices here, use "balancing" as a major excuse. But what balancing do we have and what do we actually need? We´ve lost a lot MMO standard stuff and even unique stuff SE created by themself for the "DPS race". There is not much left next to it on any class. We don´t have much random encounters, but strict boss pattern and nothing which really fears me in any fight. When i tank i can heal myself and have invul, when i´m DPS i´m ready for the heal-aoe. If anything... i´m more feared of my group members, because if someone stay 1mm too far left or right, he´s going to die and the following mechanic is going to kill us.... or maybe not if we´re lucky to get something like the lightning spread instead of the fire stack in E11s.

Ppl always has been more like "This is useless, pls change, get ride of it, whatever...". Why not claim "Hey SE, the skill is a bit out of place, why not making use of it in further content?"
And if ppl play games like this a long time, they get better for sure, but they even stuck in their comfortzone. At first they´re excited to play a new boss etc, then they´re getting used to it and finally fckd up if the boss isn´t that positional friendly or that someone else got a better parse, "just because of its class" or whatever. It could be even a thing, that one bossfight is bad for melees and the other bad for ranged. But ppl don´t see it, they keep remember the bad stuff obviously. Especially "savage only" players might think more that way, because they want to optimize their stuff, will always use the actual meta etc.

What i want to say is, that a lot of feedback even comes without many thoughts or acceptance behind it, which brought us to SHB. SE doesn´t try things anymore and copy & paste pretty much everything, meanwhile players are so excited about it. For real?
The homogenization of classes is real, noone out there can deny that. The content is wall to wall bang, stack spread etc... I really had hopes with the E5s-E8s Raids, when the OT had something to do and stuff like silence, stun and esuna had some use. Only DPS classes had nothing to do but being DPS classes next to the raidwide mechanics. But the current tier proofed my hopes to be wrong.

SE clearly gave up on everything, just to give any class a strict rotation + a gauge and something like a finisher or extraheal with it. Even the raids needs to be "perfect timed" and dungeons are just visual reworks over and over again. And don´t forget that pretty much all raidbuffs come with 60/120s next, just to keep sure that you don´t have to be a pro to aline them.

As next i don´t mind any "casual opinion", but they should make sense. And in kind of positionals i´ve even stated somewhere ago, that i wouldn´t mind if SE get ride of positionals on DRG or NIN, maybe even Reaper now. Let the positional heavy MNK as it is, SAM as something between, give NIN a trait to cause more damage from behind and get ride of that one "from the side" skill. On top get ride of positionals on DRG and Reaper, keep focus on the jump mechanics and ghouls and give them extended melee range with their long weapons. I´m pretty sure everyone would get catered with it. But no... we still stuck on our rotations and this gauge.
There i don´t even get guys like "we need extended mechanics etc., stuff which is better than positionals" and they say "hurray" to a blitz gauge alias to the same as before with a finisher button, which has a sick animation.


The game could be more and had / has a lot of unique stuff compared to other MMORPG´s. But given to the years of feedback or not, SE is going the easy way. The visuals are awesome, but that´s it and i seriously can´t understand, why the gameplay is getting dumbdowned and not expanded. And what i don´t get is, that players these days don´t expect something more from the devs and welcome simple rundowns.

(And seriously, the most influencer are more of a pain for any game than anything else. Either the audience is like "Oh yes, he´s so right." or that guy is just talking whatever his community wants to hear for more followers. Ppl should wake up and not just spam what others want to hear / what they´ve heard.)

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Originally Posted by Rika007

I assume you are talking about the NIN changes seeing as the only part of my post that referenced Ping was the Mudra rework. If not you can ignore my response.

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There are a number of other jobs, such as SMN, MCH, WAR, and DRK, who were changed for similar reasons, and to similarly mixed results. Some parts of those changes were positive, but oftentimes the bulk was only tangentially relevant to the issues people had with the job or were sold as a solution to X (say, MCH ping dependence, DRK DA spam, or pet unresponsiveness) that merely replaced one issue with a close relative (Hypercharge instead of Wildfire, Edge instead of DA, pet abilities locking you out of other actions and, initially, ghosting, rather than having pet action queues, etc., etc.).

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Your acting like they literally just table flipped in response to the first request of a rework and that was it, when we both know that isn't true.

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No, I'm not. Were that the case, each "table flip" wouldn't have taken 4 to 24 months when so many of the perceived issues were well noted in pre-patch.

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In terms of the Mudra's if I'm remembering my patches correctly it was 6 and a half years between initial NIN release to the GCD Mudra rework of Shadowbringers, and between that there was either 3 or 4 attempts to speed up the workings of the Mudra in different patches (along with the actual changes to Ninja as a job each expansion).

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Link? There was no palpable difference on the users' end from which to assume that the only way to properly allow mudras to queue was to put them on the GCD, whereas there was an example (HW-era Empyreal Arrow, a weaponskill which incurred but did not respect the GCD and could therefore be weaved much like a oGCD) of a skill being queueable even as a second action within a given GCD gap. We already had an example of a way to let sequential mudras queue properly and not create an imbalance between low- and high-ping players that nonetheless would not force them onto the GCD. Instead, we merely forced the time it takes to actually cast each mudra to that of mid-high-ping player and pulled it onto the GCD... and then squashed an entire rotational element (Shadowfang) into a Sonic Break-lite to make up the difference in effective rotational uptime?

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Maybe that doesn't seem much like to you, and maybe the fact that the end result doesn't please you makes all those attempts mean absolutely nothing, but the dev team did try to make honest attempts at fixing it. (And this goes for every other change they have done that I listed above).

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Then I suspect we define "honest" rather differently.

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As for lacking any competitive reason to be taken over others in the same role... uhhh.... what? Ninja is literally the highest overall rDPS on average on that site not to be mentioned over all 4 fights of the recent savage tier right now. It's a freaking competitive job.

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NIN is only a top dog at the 60th percentile and below. It quickly falls to about 5th place by the 80th percentile.

Meanwhile, let's look at how MCH or DRK, in their simplifications, have faired relative to StB or HW, respectively?

After watching the action trailer and the more in depth MNK rundown this is what I noticed and I'm sure most of this will be subject to change.

Tornado Kick is gone and Arm of the Destroyer is gone. Possibly a trait added for the skill Arm of Destroyer to be the "new tornado kick aoe". Level 62?

Meditation is gone/Absent. Which also could explain something in the action trailer. 2 chakra were gained after the "AOE replacement for Arm of the destroyer" was used. Maybe Meditation went full trait?

Forbidden Chackra potency is 370. 30 potency buff from 5.0. Might change

Fists stances gone. Also noticed Twin Snakes buff was 15% damage buff. Little blurry but it looks like 15%.

Riddle of "Wind". 50% something modifier 90sec recast. This was used in the job action trailer just after Brotherhood. Maybe 50% crit chance? Maybe 50% to open a chackra?

Riddle of Fire. 60sec recast. Other numbers look the same.

Brotherhood. 120sec recast. 15% damage buff? Little blurry on video. But the 20% chance on party weaponskill to open chackra seems missing.

Form timer is 30seconds. This seems strange to have such a long time on the form. Maybe will change to 15sec at launch?

Leaden Fist tool tip seems intake on Dragon Kick. With 30sec leaden fist timer.

Perfect Balance grants "True North/Riddle of Earth no positionals buff".

Blitz is level 60 and it looks like it has 4 possible attacks/combinations? There may be one more attack not seen? Blitz grants formless fist for 30 seconds. Fun fact the little symbols kinda look like the form names. Opo-opo looks like a monkey, raptor a dinosaur head, and courel a sitting cat with a tail.

The Blitz actions are form based like some deduced. Opo-opo,opo-opo,opo-opo = Elixir Field. Opo-opo, Raptor, Courel = "Phoenix Fire 850 potency?", and any full Blitz with Yin/Yang = "Star Shower Dive"?

Started with Ying in job action trailer, and did opo-opo, raptor, courel for "Phoenix Fire attack" for yang. Then did opo-opo, opo-opo, coruel, filled blitz and had ying/yang, used "Star Shower Dive"

Excited about Blitz and learning more about it. Especially the "burst window".
Yoshi only used perfect balance and didn't preform the normal 1,2,3 combo out of perfect balance. So every 40 seconds you gain a perfect balance charge. So what that's 8 seconds for 1,2,3 and the blitz use? 40-8=32 seconds until first perfect balance charge is back. Another 8 seconds for 1,2,3, Blitz. 32-8= 24sec left until next perfect balance. So that's 4 full 1,2,3, combos until you can blitz again if you back to back perfect balance?

Anyway that's what I have noticed from the videos, and I can't read Japanese. Hopefully we will have a detailed tool tip explanation soon. MrHappy did one for Reaper and seems pretty good for a job. Good Blend of playstyles.

So we don't get Form stacks outside PB ? And we do the old rotations while PB down ?
Shame.
IF we can build Form stacks without using PB, I believe it might makes me feel busy like the old GL.
I get that they don't want PB for exclusively spamming Dragon Kick + Bootshine though.

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Originally Posted by Kahnom

So we don't get Form stacks outside PB ? And we do the old rotations while PB down ?
Shame.
IF we can build Form stacks without using PB, I believe it might makes me feel busy like the old GL.
I get that they don't want PB for exclusively spamming Dragon Kick + Bootshine though.

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With PB you form blitz every 40 seconds or do 2 Blitz back to back. Your forms/combos determine your blitz while in PB. Also I don’t think we were shown the whole kit yet I’m hoping we get something like that resets PB for 4 blitz back to back maybe? Anatman maybe has something secret? Who knows. We still don’t know the traits also

It really will be interesting to see what transpires here and I still has that old monk style with something for everyone

Gonna be perfectly honest, seeing as how Elixir Field (and according to tooltips, Tornado Kick too) are fittingly GCD spenders now, I don't see any reason not to give back Howling Fist and Steel Peak.

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Originally Posted by VentVanitas

Gonna be perfectly honest, seeing as how Elixir Field (and according to tooltips, Tornado Kick too) are fittingly GCD spenders now, I don't see any reason not to give back Howling Fist and Steel Peak.

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I was thinking the same thing

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Originally Posted by Cojika

This is a huge part of the problem going on right now. Even if SE implanted all the very ill-advised things a lot of these people suggested... a large portion of them still wouldn't main monk, or even play it much at all. People need to stop pushing for homogenization. Each job should have their own identity, and if you don't like a job there are plenty others.

I can't stand playing ranged casters, and feel samurai is brain dead easy and boring. That being said I don't go around demanding whacky ass changes be made to them.

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Yet you don’t know how to play either role. Take your soapbox to Reddit and be an anonymous pro

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Originally Posted by Sqwall

After watching the action trailer and the more in depth MNK rundown this is what I noticed and I'm sure most of this will be subject to change.

Meditation is gone/Absent. Which also could explain something in the action trailer. 2 chakra were gained after the "AOE replacement for Arm of the destroyer" was used. Maybe Meditation went full trait?

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Meditation will still be there as normal. The reason you don't see it on the hotbar is because forbidden chakra was open so it replaced the meditation skill icon but obvs if he had used the chakra the icon would have reverted back to meditation