PLDs: You have Clemency for a reason.

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Originally Posted by Valic

This entire thread falls under "but my parse tho".

Really though, remember when we actually did our jobs because they had functionality beyond just adding dps? Nowadays it's "just burn it and don't worry about mitigation/healing". RDM's healing? Nah just let the RDM dps constantly and let the healer do their job. Same with ressing for that matter. May as well wipe and do it right the 2nd time everyone's together than take 2 years regaining mana and trying to dps while weakness is in effect.

#Remove Parsing

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You cannot remove parsing from anything. If there's things to be measured, there will always be ways to analyze the measurements. Just dont.

At that, parsing is not the problem here. The game's design ethos nowadays is all about hitting things til they stop hitting you. Being good at hitting things faster and harder is good. It's what one should strive for.

RDM healing is a joke to begin with. I guess since SMN has Physick they should be using that too right? My eyes cannot roll any harder.

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

I don't intend to keep going back and forth on this. You're arrogantly misrepresenting the discussion. Never does anyone have the clairvoyance of a carefully laid out perfect situation that can be devised on paper. Using clemency is very complicated especially in the chaos of a mass pull. There's not a lot of really good tells if a healer is struggling in the midst of chaos. A lot of healers let a tank's HP fall knowing they can top them off fast so the healer can focus on dps. It's almost imposible to know if a healer has blown all their cooldowns and to see how much they're spamming heals without taking focus off the task at hand which is tanking and avoiding aoes. Sometimes even hallowed ground isn't fast enough to come out in an emergency and it's instant. On top of that the pld's magic rotation is highly favored for aoe so they might not even have the mp available.

For players who aren't high end raiders expecting them to do their job right and babysit a healer on top of that is extreme. Basically it's a skill that has few real uses and requires near psychic clairvoyance to use properly. To insult people for saying focus on tanking is nuts.

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I'm not misrepresenting anything. I mean I never knew using clemency once meant I can't tank anymore how interesting! I must be godtier if I can use clemency and still tank!.

You don't wish to continue because you know you can't factually back up your claims. You merely have "well this is how I expect every group to handle this" while ignoring that gear really really matters. If I'm a mim ilvl tank in a dungeon and pull wall to wall sure a capped healer can keep me alive but again what if both are min? He'll not to mention all the wipes I've saved as a rdm, casting a cure that allowed the healer to catch back up. Casting a single vercure, doesn't stop me from being a dps able to dps. Tossing a clemency on myself or another does not inhibit my ability to tank. Emity is so easy know that a single gcd on clemency won't devastate the run.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

You cannot remove parsing from anything. If there's things to be measured, there will always be ways to analyze the measurements. Just dont.

At that, parsing is not the problem here. The game's design ethos nowadays is all about hitting things til they stop hitting you. Being good at hitting things faster and harder is good. It's what one should strive for.

RDM healing is a joke to begin with. I guess since SMN has Physick they should be using that too right? My eyes cannot roll any harder.

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Rdm heal scales off int, smns still scales off mind. So a vercure is actually a decent bit. Rdmisn't a healer but it is support caster. Meant to help if something goes wrong.

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Originally Posted by NealSnow

On another note it is funny to me that hardcore raiders dismiss that they are ever toxic most of the time but call casuals toxic, when the toxic casuals are one side of an extreme, just as there's an extreme side for elitists.

As for me I hate both sides equally:D if you are a blm only using ice 4 because "it's pretty" (actually had this encounter) yes you are playing the job wrong factually as all jobs minus blu have a rotation in mind when created. But as this thread shows if you discount certain skills because they won't affect dps, that's pretty much on the extreme side of parser users obsessed unhealthy with numbers and competing. Plus if you're worried about dps, can't dps if your dead or you'll dps less if weakened, making clemency look rather good in that light eh?

But yea, that's my peace on the matter. If your playing a pld, don't allow yourself to die because you feel the healer coulda kept you alive. A dead tank is a non dpsing tank anyway :p

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Hooooo boy.

You're not anywhere remotely on topic, just railing against "toxic raiders" because you have some problem with other people.
Having such disgust for people you don't even know is toxic. Full stop.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

Hooooo boy.

You're not anywhere remotely on topic, just railing against "toxic raiders" because you have some problem with other people.
Having such disgust for people you don't even know is toxic. Full stop.

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Coming from a player who doesn't know how rdm works while talking about rdm? Yeah I'm so gonna take you serious.

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Originally Posted by NealSnow

Coming from a player who doesn't know how rdm works while talking about rdm? Yeah I'm so gonna take you serious.

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I cleared all of alphascape *(normal and savage) as RDM.
RDM is the only caster I play with any degree of enjoyment.

Literally the only class I know next to nothing about *is monk. Where I've at least attempted to provide insights into how OP could improve their play and, with my own sense of humor, encourage them to keep on improving, what've you done but come into a thread, not posted a single thing on topic, and berated others baselessly?

I say again. There's been heated discussion here yes. But so far only you have been 100% toxic thus far.

Get Good.

Though I guess complaining in the forums after being told to play better is a coping mechanism for some gameplay-impaired people.

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Originally Posted by NealSnow

Okay so riddle me this, why do paladins have a highly potent skill at all then? According to you people it's seemingly a mistake apparently. Again. You are ignorant to the purpose of the skill. Whether or not you ever grow to get past that is on you to realize that maybe the hivemind is never 100% correct.

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Ignorant to a skill of my main for 4 years, what you been smoking dude? As I have said which you are clearly ignorant of reading, Clemency is not that important to use, because healer toolkits are so damn powerful, you shouldn't need it outside of prog or in solo play, or your healer is an idiot and didn't keep themselves alive or dodge the bad. In most case outside of req, you'll probably be dead before the cast finished upon realising the healer is struggling.

It's not a hivemind or conspiracy you are making it out to be, kinda embarrasing that you are claiming this to be honest, it's a I've been playing paladin in endgame for over 4 years, and it is very very very rare I actually need to consider using it outside of prog. My experieince is enough to know you are over sensationalising the skill.

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Originally Posted by NealSnow

Okay so riddle me this, why do paladins have a highly potent skill at all then? According to you people it's seemingly a mistake apparently. Again. You are ignorant to the purpose of the skill. Whether or not you ever grow to get past that is on you to realize that maybe the hivemind is never 100% correct.

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In a word? Flavor. Literally that's it.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

I cleared all of alphascape *(normal and savage) as RDM.
RDM is the only caster I play with any degree of enjoyment.

Literally the only class I know next to nothing about *is monk. Where I've at least attempted to provide insights into how OP could improve their play and, with my own sense of humor, encourage them to keep on improving, what've you done but come into a thread, not posted a single thing on topic, and berated others baselessly?

I say again. There's been heated discussion here yes. But so far only you have been 100% toxic thus far.

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Still not caring. Good for you that you cleared content but it's sad you still play rdm poorly not knowing how to utilise it's full kit :(

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

In a word? Flavor. Literally that's it.

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Ah so that large potency is all for flavor too? Damn

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Ignorant to a skill of my main for 4 years, what you been smoking dude? As I have said which you are clearly ignorant of reading, Clemency is not that important to use, because healer toolkits are so damn powerful, you shouldn't need it outside of prog or in solo play, or your healer is an idiot and didn't keep themselves alive or dodge the bad. In most case outside of req, you'll probably be dead before the cast finished upon realising the healer is struggling.

It's not a hivemind or conspiracy you are making it out to be, kinda embarrasing that you are claiming this to be honest, it's a I've been playing paladin in endgame for over 4 years, and it is very very very rare I actually need to consider using it outside of prog. My experieince is enough to know you are over sensationalising the skill.

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It is a hivemind. The only time raiders will however turn on each other is comparing parsers trying to out do each other.

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Originally Posted by NealSnow

I'm not misrepresenting anything. I mean I never knew using clemency once meant I can't tank anymore how interesting! I must be godtier if I can use clemency and still tank!.

You don't wish to continue because you know you can't factually back up your claims. You merely have "well this is how I expect every group to handle this" while ignoring that gear really really matters. If I'm a mim ilvl tank in a dungeon and pull wall to wall sure a capped healer can keep me alive but again what if both are min? He'll not to mention all the wipes I've saved as a rdm, casting a cure that allowed the healer to catch back up. Casting a single vercure, doesn't stop me from being a dps able to dps. Tossing a clemency on myself or another does not inhibit my ability to tank. Emity is so easy know that a single gcd on clemency won't devastate the run.

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If you or you healer are on min ilvl you don't pull wall to wall in the first place, nobody can really do that and expect a smooth pull without making the life of the entire party a hell for no reason.

Clemency and vercure are badly designed tools that can only be the last resort of each job, a competent PLD will use everything what it have first before use clemency, the DPS is more important since killing the treats faster will help more to the healer that you using clemency, secondly a competent PLD will check the healer gear first and pull proportionally to avoid any situation using clemency since is more faster and better pull small groups and burn them that use the spell, and last the PLD can be out of mana BCS he just used his requiem cast aoe rotation which is what it should be doing.

In resume using clemency/vercure means you or you party members failed on so many stuff to even allow that situation and the only acceptable situation is when the healer dies for whatever mechanic/reason and the only sustain available is you.

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Originally Posted by NealSnow

It is a hivemind. The only time raiders will however turn on each other is comparing parsers trying to out do each other.

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How is trying to optimise equal to hivemind? lol

I guess you just want your participation medal, because comparing parses is part or the fun when optimising, it's usually a "fair play" or "nice job", when you beat your best parse, or you beat someone in friendly competition if you choose to compete with someone. Raiders don't get pissy or "turn on each other" as you claim over parses.

Just shows how little you really know, but tbf you don't raid, so you're only making assumptions.

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Originally Posted by NealSnow

Ah so that large potency is all for flavor too? Damn

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Basically, yeah. It fills the "Paladin is cleric / fighter" niche that many associate with it for one reason or another. Paladin actually used to have access to Cure 1 as well as Raise in the day because they crossed directly with Conjurer (White Mage).

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Originally Posted by shao32

Clemency and vercure are badly designed tools that can only be the last resort of each job, a competent PLD will use everything what it have first before use clemency, the DPS is more important since killing the treats faster will help more to the healer that you using clemency

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Um... one cast of Clemency can keep you going for several seconds giving the healer time to get back ontop of the healing vs damage being dealt to you. In the case of SCH, if everything has been blown because of two wall to wall pulls, no Aetherflow, no Fey Spells, the only thing the SCH really has left is Adlo and Physick, neither of which are going to keep up with the incoming damage if the tank also used a bunch of stuff during the first of two consecutive wall to wall pulls.

A Holy Circle does what, 5-10% of a mob's HP? And is only a fraction of the whole group's DPS? That's not even going to shorten the fight by any measurable amount of time when there are also two dedicated DPS also working on the mobs.

A Clemency could, however, buy a few seconds for Aetherflow or some other cooldown to come up. I mean consider these two scenarios:

1). SCH is out of Aetherflow and had blown it early in the pull because their Faerie stuff was on cooldown from the first wall to wall pull.
2). PLD had used Rampart on the first pull and it's down for the second and uses his other stuff in the beginning of the 2nd pull.
3). PLD also blew his Hallowed Ground earlier and it's not ready yet.

PLD is now sitting at 25% and notices the SCH has been chain-casting Physick with some Adlos thrown in and he's been at <50% for several seconds now. He has a choice of...

1). Casting Clemency
2). Casting Holy Circle

Let's say that the majority of the mob pack has 50% health left with a couple big mobs having some more.

If he casts Holy Circle, he does maybe 5-10% of all the mobs' health in damage, the healer falls behind even more and the PLD will eventually die because Physick/Adlo can't keep up with that much damage.

-OR-

If he casts Clemency, especially if he casted two back-to-back, he buys the healer 5-10 seconds. First, the SCH gets some time to throw another Adlo on him buying another second or two, and then maybe a Tactics+Adlo after that. There's a good chance that either Aetherflow will come off of cooldown (if that happens, Excog+2 Lustrates will easily last the rest of the pull!), or maybe something like the Faerie HoT will be ready again.

Or if not, the SCH can continue chain-casting Physick and it just might be enough to last until the DPS finish off the weaker mobs of the pack, then suddenly the PLD starts taking less damage, and then they barely scrape by.

But casting Holy Circle? Yeah sure you dump 10% of the mobs' health on them. Too bad they still have 40% left and you're 5-10 seconds from death as the SCH gets to watch you slowly lose more health than he can heal if he's out of cooldowns/resources.

Either way, casting Clemency will buy you more time than Holy Circle, unless several mobs only have a sliver of health on them. And even then, the 2 DPS will kill them within seconds anyways so it still doesn't matter.

EDIT: Another thing, two things need to happen:

1). Healers need to stop whining about a PLD using Clemency. If a PLD is <50% for several seconds, casting Clemency should be OK.
2). Tanks need to stop worrying about a healer getting offended if he casts Clemency.

I've had PLDs unnecessarily cast Clemency and I shrug it off. I had the situation under control but the PLD casted Clemency? Oh well. I can throw more Holy/Art of War/Gravity for another few seconds. I don't mind.

I don't see what the big problem, why healers get their undergarments in such a twist because a PLD casts Clemency (at least in Duty Finder)......

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Originally Posted by Maeka

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PLD have rampart, sentinel, sheltron, reprisal, arm's lenght, even pasagge of arm tick and hallowed ground, thats a ton of mitigation that have a great duration and fair recast and let you blow a great amount of dps at the same time,there is no healer that could struggle any tank with that arsenal, even the casual ones just end standing doing almost nothing most of the pull and i say that from my own experience leveling all tanks.

clemency should never being used outside of extreme necesity, what ppl should encourage is more uses of sheltron, better management of their mitigation tools and being more dedicated on using the damm aoes instead of single target rotations, encouraging the use of clemency is a bad habit and it will always be until SE make it don't cost you huge chunks of DPS until that clemency is a poor healer sustitute nothing more nothing less.

I'll be honest this all screams a you problem for the most part, honestly if it was any other tank you'd end up in the same situation, only difference here is you have a paladin that is NOT obligated to use clemency, it is the paladin prerogative as to whether or not they use it.

It is NOT your place to demand paladin players to use clemency when, as it has been pointed out excruciatingly long enough now, in most cases it's not needed as healer toolkits are already overpowered.

By virtue of your complaint, only paladin can mass pull because it's the only tank with a spammable heal, other tanks are doomed to single packs, because they haven't got a means to cover healer unable to make use of their powerful toolkits.

I honestly don't understand why the paladin being the tank able to do something other than hit-it-and-wait-to-wipe is the problem here.

You have this great ability that has key and valuable points of use, but people would rather aoe and die.

I don't get it.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I honestly don't understand why the paladin being the tank able to do something other than hit-it-and-wait-to-wipe is the problem here.

You have this great ability that has key and valuable points of use, but people would rather aoe and die.

I don't get it.

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Because it shouldn't be needed to be used if the healer is any way competent. Usually you don't notice you're on death's door until it's too late because you should be focused on managing cooldown usage, rotation and checking on enemy healthbars.

Except if you're one of those idiot tanks that panic after a single auto attack and spams Clemency, man they crack me up every time.

I'm used to seeing my hp around 30% mark and still know it's fine, I've been bene sniped around ~5%, still didn't use clemency, because healer mains gotta have their fun.

As well, it's not always possible to get that clemency off before you die, because my first thought isn't so how is this healer gonna let me die, but how to best keep on top of my cooldowns to mitigate as much damage as I can.

There is of course the situation where MP is spent and not enough generated to even cast a spell, but that's the obvious "what do you expect me to do if I have no MP".

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Because it shouldn't be needed to be used if the healer is any way competent. Usually you don't notice you're on death's door until it's too late because you should be focused on managing cooldown usage, rotation and checking on enemy healthbars.

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Except this is one of those cases where it was needed.

It doesn't matter whose fault it was at the end of the day - You have the unique capability to turn course, and the refusal to do so shouldn't be a mark of pride.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Except this is one of those cases where it was needed.

It doesn't matter whose fault it was at the end of the day - You have the unique capability to turn course, and the refusal to do so shouldn't be a mark of pride.

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Because the healer was incompetent. The healer does not become better if every paladin they get spams clemency. I'd much rather wipe and talk to them about what they're doing wrong than carry them through the whole instance.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

Because the healer was incompetent. The healer does not become better if every paladin they get spams clemency. I'd much rather wipe and talk to them about what they're doing wrong than carry them through the whole instance.

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You have no control over someone else's progress, even if you attempt to aid them.

However, aiding them is not exclusive from preventing a wipe, so that's an odd point to bring up.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Except this is one of those cases where it was needed.

It doesn't matter whose fault it was at the end of the day - You have the unique capability to turn course, and the refusal to do so shouldn't be a mark of pride.

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Think you keep missing the very valid points raised of focused on other things that are not a hp bar, and many points of not a mind reader.

Also at no point is any of this a "mark of pride", I just don't see it happen often where it is actually needed, and if the healer does go down (which has been more common than OP's scenario), I'm more than happy to spam Clemency on myself and dps if needed, to help finish off mobs or bosses.

I'm not saying "eww, why would I ever use that skill", I've been saying all this time don't EXPECT a paladin to use Clemency when you're struggling as a healer in content, nor demand a paladin cast Clemency to cover a lack in skill or gear.

I used the point of ~5% bene snipe as a point of trust your healer, and focus on your own tasks, and as a reasoning why it can be difficult to discern when a healer is struggling versus playing "how low can you go", nothing remotely in any regard to bragging.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

You have no control over someone else's progress, even if you attempt to aid them.

However, aiding them is not exclusive from preventing a wipe, so that's an odd point to bring up.

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You're correct I don't. Just as they can't control the way i utilize my tools. But again, I'd much rather teach than carry. Of course I can get through the duty spamming clemency the whole time. But it's not something i'm willing to do when the healer can just use their tools appropriately. OP even acknowledged themselves that they weren't using their toolkit well.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

You're correct I don't. Just as they can't control the way i utilize my tools. But again, I'd much rather teach than carry. Of course I can get through the duty spamming clemency the whole time. But it's not something i'm willing to do when the healer can just use their tools appropriately. OP even acknowledged themselves that they weren't using their toolkit well.

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OP also detailed the behavior of a -very bad tank-.

That is why I qualify what I say with "In the end, it doesn't matter whose fault it is". Stuff happens. Stuff hits the fan. The advice being offered is basic generic "this usually works". It takes longer to recover and 'do it right' than it does to just bite the bullet and use Clemency.

Again - Nothing prevents you from helping them -and- preventing the wipe. The two are not exclusive.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

OP also detailed the behavior of a -very bad tank-.

That is why I qualify what I say with "In the end, it doesn't matter whose fault it is". Stuff happens. Stuff hits the fan. The advice being offered is basic generic "this usually works". It takes longer to recover and 'do it right' than it does to just bite the bullet and use Clemency.

Again - Nothing prevents you from helping them -and- preventing the wipe. The two are not exclusive.

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If by "behavior of a very bad tank" you mean "sprinting, pulling big, and hitting defensives," sure. Then again, that's something i did on the first day shb dropped with no issue.

If it doesnt matter whose fault it is, then why did OP make an entire post blaming the paladin (and complaining about every other paladin as well) for every single wipe in that dungeon?

Wiping in a leveling dungeon means nothing to me. I'm not gonna die irl if we wipe. It's a lot easier to explain what to do when they can see the tangible difference between what they were (or were not) doing and the suggestions.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

If by "behavior of a very bad tank" you mean "sprinting, pulling big, and hitting defensives," sure. Then again, that's something i did on the first day shb dropped with no issue.

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Actually, reading the OP again, I think we all just got taken for a ride.

Read through it again, pay attention to the sequence of events, particularly, post second boss. Might just be me, but Holminster doesn't go like how its described.

This post really reeks of entitlement and a poor mentality, and here’s my take on why.

Scholar takes a little bit more know-how to handle in dungeons than the other two healers, especially when undergeared (more on this later). It’s a very proactive healer, so if you manage to get to the “Adlo spam” point you’re long past screwed. A big thing I noticed is that you constantly mention being out of AF but never mention Dissipation, a tool that would both increase the gain on the Adlo’s you’re casting but also give you 3 stacks of Aetherflow. Additionally, using Sacred Soil is an absolute waste until around 78 when it gets an added regen. I suggest making use of other tools as well, like Fey Union & Eos’ skills, as well as doing a prepull shield before he sprints off to the world beyond. Speaking of which—if yyour tank sprints, try to sprint with them unless it’s on cooldown. (Which it shouldn’t be if you’ve been sprinting with them!)

Secondly, I don’t really understand the mentality of “I’m undergeared and my team wouldn’t babysit me so it’s their fault”. If you are undergeared then it is yours and nobody else’s responsibility to gear up. If you go into a dungeon and say you’re undergeared, 9 out of 10 times the party will be willing to accommodate you. But expecting everyone else to pick up your slack when you say nothing is really selfish and just makes this post give off a really entitled vibe.

Embarrassingly enough, most of what you described is the common Holminister pull set and the Paladin seemed to have done everything perfectly. He used Hallowed, presumably(?) used his other cooldowns as well, and pulled the mobs efficiently. If the DPS are slacking on the damage than his Holy Circle is even more valuable in place of Clemency. Of course, I draw the time at “I’m going to die if I don’t use this”—but a lot of healers let their tanks get low before bumping them back up to near full with an OGCD, so it can be hard to tell if your healer is competent in that regard or taking you for a ride.

Lastly, it’s okay to wipe. For various reasons. It might happen due to some unlucky rng, someone messing up, irl aggro, but it opens up the chance for you to discuss things with your party. If you’re uncomfortable with a pull, post-wipe clarity is the perfect time to bring it up. If you say nothing then go vent on the forums people are going to wonder why you didn’t speak up. Your party members can’t read your mind, so most of the time they will proceed as is normal unless something else is mentioned.

Hopefully this helps. I’m not trying to get on your case, just help you level up your SCH gameplay a bit! Please do be vocal with your teammates, most of the people in this game are very understanding. Oh, and try to get some gear, too. (: Those first few dungeon levels are really rough to heal but you’ll start feeling better around the 74-76 mark.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Actually, reading the OP again, I think we all just got taken for a ride.

Read through it again, pay attention to the sequence of events, particularly, post second boss. Might just be me, but Holminster doesn't go like how its described.

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I admitted later in the thread that my memory of the events were foggy due to me not running Holminster Switch in awhile.

I got confused, thinking the Gremlin area was after the 2nd boss, when it is after the 1st boss.

I don't have the Shadowbringers dungeons memorized off the top of my head, and I had posted this thread a few hours after the events in question actually happened. I just remembered that the tank immediately mashed sprint and took off on the very first pull, there was a wipe, and then later on with the Gremlin area, she ran me out of resources and kept overpulling with me being out of resources.

As for using Sprint, I also said earlier in the thread, that I have nothing against tanks using sprint, but uh,

How about not using Sprint and pulling the first three groups before you even test your healer, or even confirm they're ready?

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Originally Posted by Maeka

I admitted later in the thread that my memory of the events were foggy due to me not running Holminster Switch in awhile.

I got confused, thinking the Gremlin area was after the 2nd boss, when it is after the 1st boss.

I don't have the Shadowbringers dungeons memorized off the top of my head, and I had posted this thread a few hours after the events in question actually happened. I just remembered that the tank immediately mashed sprint and took off on the very first pull, there was a wipe, and then later on with the Gremlin area, she ran me out of resources and kept overpulling with me being out of resources.

As for using Sprint, I also said earlier in the thread, that I have nothing against tanks using sprint, but uh,

How about not using Sprint and pulling the first three groups before you even test your healer, or even confirm they're ready?

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A big pull is a better test of your healer than a small pull. Did you accept the prompt to enter the dungeon? Yes. Did you say you need a second? No. So the obvious assumption is that you are indeed ready. Its a dungeon, not a savage fight. You shouldn't need a ready check and a countdown.

Additionally, after you wiped and you felt that you couldn't handle small pulls, did you actually communicate that you wanted to slow down to your tank?

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

A big pull is a better test of your healer than a small pull. Did you accept the prompt to enter the dungeon? Yes. Did you say you need a second? No. So the obvious assumption is that you are indeed ready. Its a dungeon, not a savage fight. You shouldn't need a ready check and a countdown.

Additionally, after you wiped and you felt that you couldn't handle small pulls, did you actually communicate that you wanted to slow down to your tank?

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Shouldn't have to, to be honest. She pulls a 3-group pull, and we wind up wiping because I hadn't played SCH in a bit (it's been a week or two), and she does 2 group pulls the rest of the dungeon until that gremlin area, which everybody should know by now those things hurt like hell and do a LOT of damage, and she decides do those two pulls literally back to back with no time in-between.

Really REALLY don't understand what the frick is everybody's hurry anymore that you gotta chain pull GOGOGOGOGOGOGO to the max. Slow down a little, yeesh.

Shouldn't have to go begging people to slow down. And if I did, then what? People get grumbly and disband then we sit around waiting for a replacement? Or they start talking down to me like people are doing in this thread? "You suck" because I don't like huge pulls that get me all flustered especially right from the beginning before I even warm up?

Sometimes it's nice to have a smaller pull or two at the beginning to get into the rhythm and get the muscle memory going. But mashing sprint and pulling the first 3 groups without even giving me time to say much of anything just puts me in a flustered mood and I start forgetting buttons, or sometimes hitting wrong buttons, and when you got a 3-group pull, you have literally zero room for error.

I don't play games for edge-of-your-seat action.

I like to have fun and relax a little. Sorry if that's a freaking crime in this GOGOGOGOGOGOGO mentality that a lot of players have these days.

The solution then is to pre form your own group, not expect DF to conform to your standards especially when you won't communicate them.

"But so should they!"

Well that's the problem of pugging innit, it put you and Speed Racer in the same group and obviously you two didn't get along. Solution for either of you is to put up or preform. Looks like you both chose to put up with it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Shouldn't have to, to be honest. She pulls a 3-group pull, and we wind up wiping because I hadn't played SCH in a bit (it's been a week or two), and she does 2 group pulls the rest of the dungeon until that gremlin area, which everybody should know by now those things hurt like hell and do a LOT of damage, and she decides do those two pulls literally back to back with no time in-between.

Really REALLY don't understand what the frick is everybody's hurry anymore that you gotta chain pull GOGOGOGOGOGOGO to the max. Slow down a little, yeesh.

Shouldn't have to go begging people to slow down. And if I did, then what? People get grumbly and disband then we sit around waiting for a replacement? Or they start talking down to me like people are doing in this thread? "You suck" because I don't like huge pulls that get me all flustered especially right from the beginning before I even warm up?

Sometimes it's nice to have a smaller pull or two at the beginning to get into the rhythm and get the muscle memory going. But mashing sprint and pulling the first 3 groups without even giving me time to say much of anything just puts me in a flustered mood and I start forgetting buttons, or sometimes hitting wrong buttons, and when you got a 3-group pull, you have literally zero room for error.

I don't play games for edge-of-your-seat action.

I like to have fun and relax a little. Sorry if that's a freaking crime in this GOGOGOGOGOGOGO mentality that a lot of players have these days.

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I do big pulls because they're more entertaining than small pulls. Them being faster is just a nice bonus. I don't want to slow down. That's boring. But I will if my group asks me to. If they don't ask, then we're doing big pulls. You being unwilling to communicate is your fault, and hence your problem. You don't want to do big pulls? Say something or just drop from party.

You have fun your way, others have fun their way. You can find a compromise if you just open party chat and type.

Also lol "zero room for error" in a three pack pull. There's plenty of room for error, so long as you know what all your buttons do. No one is perfect but somehow plenty of people get through pulls like that (and larger) all the time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

The solution then is to pre form your own group, not expect DF to conform to your standards especially when you won't communicate them.

"But so should they!"

Well that's the problem of pugging innit, it put you and Speed Racer in the same group and obviously you two didn't get along. Solution for either of you is to put up or preform. Looks like you both chose to put up with it.

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Or..... you could compromise and do middle-ground.

Yeah, 1 group pull is a bit boring, even in my opinion.
3 Group pulls, at least as SCH, is too stressful.

So.... what's between 1 and 3?

Right, 2.

EDIT: I will also note that yesterday I had a Shisui run, and the tank there did a 3 group pull and it was rather smooth. I'm thinking that maybe either ShB dungeons are tuned a bit high, esp Holminster, or maybe the fact that being Level Sync'd makes a rather big difference in how smooth things go. Which goes back to my initial complaint: If the healer isn't Sync'd, I think a 2 group pull to start with is probably better and see how much they struggle, or if they breeze through it like it's nothing, watch for things like whether or not you notice them casting DPS spells. If you do a 2 group pull and you see very little DPS out of the healer, chances are they are struggling and 3 group pull is not a good idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

The solution then is to pre form your own group, not expect DF to conform to your standards especially when you won't communicate them.

"But so should they!"

Well that's the problem of pugging innit, it put you and Speed Racer in the same group and obviously you two didn't get along. Solution for either of you is to put up or preform. Looks like you both chose to put up with it.

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The "just make your own Party" argument, love seeing it as if it supposed to be the correct answer here. Speedrunners are supposed to group up and average / below-average players are supposed to be expected when entering DF, not the other way around.

Frankly, being a speedrunner myself, I am siding with Maeka in this case. In Duty Finder, everyone is equally responsible for survival, provided they have defensive or restorative tools in their kit. By default, this includes PLDs Clemency. If the healer is clearly being starved of resources during "optimal play", the next correct thing would be playing what is generally accepted as "suboptimal", as in using Clemency to reduce the healing burden. I believe I said it before, but I'll happily say it again:

"Survival > DPS. A dead person does no DPS."

The real problem is that noone knows when they should actually use Clemency because everyone tells them to not use it ever, meaning they never learn the situational awareness for it. And no, "if Healer is dead" is already a bit too late unless the Healer got one-shot. Personally, if I don't know the healer quite yet and don't know their responsiveness to my HP dropping, during my first Requiescat window I'll pop at least 1x Clemency to gauge if it ends up overhealing / unnecessary or not.

Maeka is every bit in the right to expect people to do sub optimal things to smoothen the run in the same way others can expect of Maeka to play suboptimally (no DPS for instance or clipping / triple use of OGCD) if it means saving them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Or..... you could compromise and do middle-ground.

Yeah, 1 group pull is a bit boring, even in my opinion.
3 Group pulls, at least as SCH, is too stressful.

So.... what's between 1 and 3?

Right, 2.

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Admittedly, for Holminster that is a good compromise since the Bear + Wolves could end up nasty if the Healer is mediocre. The Scorpions might end up being much for worse Healers.

You know op you might find this insensitive and rude, but i think it needs to be said. I honestly think you're not cut out for healing at this point in time. For 4 days straight you have had tanks here (mostly paladin mains i assume) tell you how Clemency should be used and when it should be used. And all you have been doing is shrugging them off and making invalid points. If you don't like tanks pulling a lot then play with trusts, you can pull 1 or 2 at time with them and not have to worry about wipes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Magnedeus

You know op you might find this insensitive and rude, but i think it needs to be said. I honestly think you're not cut out for healing at this point in time. For 4 days straight you have had tanks here (mostly paladin mains i assume) tell you how Clemency should be used and when it should be used. And all you have been doing is shrugging them off and making invalid points. If you don't like tanks pulling a lot then play with trusts, you can pull 1 or 2 at time with them and not have to worry about wipes.

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.....except there are several people in the thread who disagree that the points I've made are "invalid".

Just a few people who insist on wall to wall pulls 100% of the time, always, regardless of level/gear/etc, who insist every healer must be able to play at the very best, even in leveling dungeons, even while still learning the class.

It's just... um... ok. Whatever.

Apparently compromising isn't something that should ever be done, ever. "You're not very good at 3 group pulls so you should just never heal duty finder ever again and while you're at it, you should quit healing entirely!"

Let alone the fact that I do just fine, rather well even, on boss fights, and that I can do 3 group pulls easily as WHM, and comfortably as AST, and I just find SCH to be a bit too stressful, but only during 3 group pulls. "Oh, but we can't do 2 group pulls, because other people can do it fine!"

Is such a ridiculous and stupid argument to make. Honestly.

Ever wonder why the Adventurer In Need is almost always Healer for Leveling Roulette? To compare, I see Tank on Trials Roulette rather often (because it's boring as crap, when you got a 50/50 chance of being a gimp DPS on most fights).

This here is a big reason as to why. Most people don't have the patience to put up with BS like this.

EDIT: Also want to mention that some people are misrepresenting what I am saying. It seems like a couple of the biggest naysayers in this thread are trying to make out like I am saying that PLDs should be constantly casting Clemency on every pull. I never said that, and I never meant to imply that. I merely said that if you're hanging at 30%, or 25% or what-not for several seconds, that maybe you should consider casting it and don't just let yourself drop dead, and that a tank should have a decent situational awareness and look at more than their DPS buttons, and/or not burst out of the gate running full tilt the very moment "Duty Commenced" appears on the screen to actually see what the healer is wearing, what level they are, etc other considerations to take into account. If those points are "invalid" then... sheesh. I really don't know what to say. They seem like common sense to me. *shrug*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Maeka

EDIT: I will also note that yesterday I had a Shisui run, and the tank there did a 3 group pull and it was rather smooth. I'm thinking that maybe either ShB dungeons are tuned a bit high, esp Holminster, or maybe the fact that being Level Sync'd makes a rather big difference in how smooth things go. Which goes back to my initial complaint: If the healer isn't Sync'd, I think a 2 group pull to start with is probably better and see how much they struggle, or if they breeze through it like it's nothing, watch for things like whether or not you notice them casting DPS spells. If you do a 2 group pull and you see very little DPS out of the healer, chances are they are struggling and 3 group pull is not a good idea.

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Holminster is the odd one out this expansion. Of the leveling dungeons, outside Mt Gulg's megapulls, it's the most dangerous one. Nobody's got their new tools for the most part, and you might get paired with DPS who don't get significant expansions to their aoe through level 72 skills.

It should be noted that Stormblood leveling dungeons are indirectly nerfed with the baseline tanking changes, though Bardrams in particular feels like it got tuned down on 5.0 release.