Storm's Eye Is a Chore

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Brital swing is actually yet another example of why utility shouldnt be dps buttons.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

I really miss Brutal Swing's animation.

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Yeah, but, like, I'm just saying.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

Brital swing is actually yet another example of why utility shouldnt be dps buttons.

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That seems a better example of why a game shouldn't have a braindead DR system. We've have comprehensive ways of fixing exactly those problems, listed right here on these forums, since ARR, and yet rather than making even the slightest attempt to fix CC, they opted instead to remove it from the game.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That seems a better example of why a game shouldn't have a braindead DR system. We've have comprehensive ways of fixing exactly those problems, listed right here on these forums, since ARR, and yet rather than making even the slightest attempt to fix CC, they opted instead to remove it from the game.

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Yeah i wish cc was more or a thing. They hyped up the new ui animation for interrupt but its barely ever a thing...

So they need to remove dmg on gap closer

U guyz are very clever because u see things further than me tunnelvisionning on the onslaught point. I understand what you are saying about mobility. U would have to plan when you can use it or when you have to hold resulting on dps vs. mobility

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Originally Posted by LuceliaUltima

So they need to remove dmg on gap closer

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Then you remove its synergy with Inner Release and any chance of it again being a meaningful complement to, or component of, gauge management.

Again, it's in a good place as is. It is already an incredibly well designed skill, probably the best designed <gap closer+> in the game.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Yes. That's the point. That's also why Onslaught is a far superior mobility tool to Intervene, Rough Divide, and almost always Plunge. If Onslaught saves even a fifth of a GCD in melee uptime it will have made up for its cost, but unlike the other gap-closers it isn't used on cooldown and is therefore always available (except for the 10 seconds after obligatory use during Inner Release). Giving it no gauge cost would be a nerf to Warrior mobility.

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But then its a nerf to his DPS, pulling him to the bottom in comparison to other tanks.
20 potency used on mobility, no tank has that.

It should get a reduced potency to 15-16 to make it dps neutral at the very least.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

But then its a nerf to his DPS, pulling him to the bottom in comparison to other tanks.
20 potency used on mobility, no tank has that.

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Wait, what?

A single Rough Divide used outside of No Mercy is already 40 potency lost
A single Intervene used outside of Fight of Flight is already 50 potency lost.

The only job with zero penalty for holding onto (a charge of) their gap-closer for mobility is DRK. But, given that they are THE original gap-closer job and the only way to give them any penalty alike to PLD and GNB's would be to make Blood Weapon again account for oGCDs, which would utterly wreck their balance, I'm fine with that.

Warrior has the second least penalty on its most frequently available gap-closer.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Wait, what?

A single Rough Divide used outside of No Mercy is already 40 potency lost
A single Intervene used outside of Fight of Flight is already 50 potency lost.

The only job with zero penalty for holding onto (a charge of) their gap-closer for mobility is DRK. But, given that they are THE original gap-closer job and the only way to give them any penalty alike to PLD and GNB's would be to make Blood Weapon again account for oGCDs, which would utterly wreck their balance, I'm fine with that.

Warrior has the second least penalty on its most frequently available gap-closer.

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Yes but even with these "penalties" PLD and GNB outperforms warrior by good amount of dps.
And DRK does not have any penalty.
Its not an argument against making it dps neutral, it wont change warrior dps even a bit, maybe make less experienced warrior performing a bit better nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Yes but even with these "penalties" PLD and GNB outperforms warrior by good amount of dps.
And DRK does not have any penalty.
Its not an argument against making it dps neutral, it wont change warrior dps even a bit, maybe make less experienced warrior performing a bit better nothing else.

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Then just buff the job in literally any way besides gutting their unique mobility/IR-synergy/gauge-manipulator tool?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Then just buff the job in literally any way besides gutting their unique mobility/IR-synergy/gauge-manipulator tool?

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It wont gut anything making it dps neutral, it will be opposite.
People will start using it as a mobiltiy tool as it supposed to be.

Maximum optimised WAR is using onslaught only in IR windows and the skill itself has zero use outside of it with really really rare cases where you would basically lose 10 gauge at third part of healing combo, its not unique but borderline useless.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

It wont gut anything making it dps neutral, it will be opposite.
People will start using it as a mobiltiy tool as it supposed to be.

Maximum optimised WAR is using onslaught only in IR windows and the skill itself has zero use outside of it with really really rare cases where you would basically lose 10 gauge at third part of healing combo, its not unique but borderline useless.

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You cannot make the skill dps-neutral for any one use without making it better than dps neutral over consistent use. Making it truly dps neutral within any one use means that it can and should be used on cooldown in order to increase the relative duration of Storm's Eye, thereby allowing for a greater portion of SP casts to SE casts, which would then make it dps-positive and obligatory. This is especially true across certain SkS breakpoints.

No, it will have to be dps-negative in some regard in order to maintain use as a mobility tool. It could be nearer per use to dps-neutral, such as by trimming 2 seconds' duration from Infuriate alike to Fell Cleave's 5-second reduction, but I have to wonder... why you'd want to? Again, Warrior has the second-least punishing and arguably best gap-closer overall, so unless it needs to be closer to dps-neutral for purposes of gauge management (for which Onslaught, as a safety tool, still should not be outright free to use), why apply the buff... there?

The reason Onslaught sees such little use is the same reason GCD healing sees such little use -- it's actively been made superfluous, in this case by the second charge of Infuriate and the fact that Inner Chaos's Direct-Crit is wasted within the IR window. If you want to see your tools get the meaningful usage they were previously meant to receive, you're going to have to convince SE that Warrior want more than a braindead job, sacrificing a bit of excessively lenient QoL for some actual management.

Delaying Plunge actually isn't free either, because ideally you'd like to use both charges under raid buffs. It's less of a loss than PLD/GNB native buffs combined with raid buffs, but still.

I kinda wish they reverted the charges on gap-closers. While it removed the issue of losing entire casts on delay, it instead introduced a new issue(using both charges under buffs), which makes difference between burst and downtime apm even more jarring, on DRK especially.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

It wont gut anything making it dps neutral, it will be opposite.
People will start using it as a mobiltiy tool as it supposed to be.

Maximum optimised WAR is using onslaught only in IR windows and the skill itself has zero use outside of it with really really rare cases where you would basically lose 10 gauge at third part of healing combo, its not unique but borderline useless.

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But it is used as a gap closer right now.

Top WAR parses, AKA "Maximum optimised WAR", for 3/4 floors of savage have more Onslaught casts than IRs. The one fight with equal Onslaught/IR usage is e2s, which can be optimized for tanks and DPS to keep 100% melee uptime.
They don't have tons of more casts, but that's mostly because mobility this tier is kind of a joke and we no longer need to cancel knockbacks, because of addition of Arm's Length as a tank role action. The issue isn't Onslaught - it's encounter design and the stupidity that are knockback immunities.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

They don't have tons of more casts, but that's mostly because mobility this tier is kind of a joke and we no longer need to cancel knockbacks, because of addition of Arm's Length as a tank role action. The issue isn't Onslaught - it's encounter design and the stupidity that are knockback immunities.

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This. So much this. And yet I wouldn't be surprised if the devs were quicker to remove gap-closers, since they're now largely superfluous, than to remove gimmick un-mechanics like Arm's Length...

Warrior : having to keep a buff every 30s is too hard and annoying. Make it last longer so I can spam 1 combo more often.
DRK : can I have another combo?

Damn right it is. We need that 40 secs. I've to galaxy brain my IR each time because of it!

You just need to not ir under 16s of eye remaining

You can do IR practically whenever because you dont have to intterupt a combo. You need 12-16 seconds depending on where your combo is. Heavy swing, maim, FCx5, eye for example only needs 12 sec. Besides, making it 40 seconds doesnt change that. If you cant track your buffs at 30 sec, you wont track it at 40 sec and you will still drop youre eye because you arent paying attention. Using IR with 8 sec left on eye will still happen at 40. Thays always just going to be the players fault for not tracking their buffs.

You cant buff away human error.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

You can do IR practically whenever because you dont have to intterupt a combo. You need 12-16 seconds depending on where your combo is. Heavy swing, maim, FCx5, eye for example only needs 12 sec. Besides, making it 40 seconds doesnt change that. If you cant track your buffs at 30 sec, you wont track it at 40 sec and you will still drop youre eye because you arent paying attention. Using IR with 8 sec left on eye will still happen at 40. Thays always just going to be the players fault for not tracking their buffs.

You cant buff away human error.

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Yeah i'm not sure how increasing eye to 40 secs would help. Id rather have mythril apply eye. Or have overpower combo into maim is okay too. That way we can overpower to grab hate, then maim, eye, then overpower~mythril tempest again and again.

Would be a great qol change that would actually address the problem with eye.

Increasing eye to 40 secs doesnt seem like it would make a difference.

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Originally Posted by Izsha

You cant buff away human error.

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You sure can:

New additional effect for Inner Release: Extends Storm's Eye by 10s to a maximum of 30s

^___^

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Originally Posted by Tint

You sure can:

New additional effect for Inner Release: Extends Storm's Eye by 10s to a maximum of 30s

^___^

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Next complaint: "Why can't Storm's Eye be applied when I use Inner Release?"

I wish I was joking, but search your feelings, we all know it's true lol

Just remove the Eye combo and make every single beast gauge spender apply the buff for 30 seconds, up to 60 seconds. DRK got WAR's amazing one button spam cd in SHB, only fair WAR gets DRK's "engaging" buff upkeep mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Just remove the Eye combo and make every single beast gauge spender apply the buff for 30 seconds, up to 60 seconds. DRK got WAR's amazing one button spam cd in SHB, only fair WAR gets DRK's "engaging" buff upkeep mechanic.

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Except that drk never asked for it

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Originally Posted by Sylvain

Except that drk never asked for it

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Actually pretty sure I've seen some people asking for DA to be turned into IR(also some people asking for it to be FoF) along with a couple other "great" ideas.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

Actually pretty sure I've seen some people asking for DA to be turned into IR(also some people asking for it to be FoF) along with a couple other "great" ideas.

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I mean, DA via TBN was nearer to a one-GCD IR before the change -- it effectively gave a free gauge skill. Now it, more helpfully, gives a free oGCD always of greater potency than either gauge skill.

I also never saw this suggestion. I'd seen it suggested that Delirium copy IR (either version), which... we got, but I'd never seen one suggest that so frequent an oGCD create free gauge skills, muddying our main gauge building-spending concept.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I mean, DA via TBN was nearer to a one-GCD IR before the change -- it effectively gave a free gauge skill. Now it, more helpfully, gives a free oGCD always of greater potency than either gauge skill.

I also never saw this suggestion. I'd seen it suggested that Delirium copy IR (either version), which... we got, but I'd never seen one suggest that so frequent an oGCD create free gauge skills, muddying our main gauge building-spending concept.

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Oh no, it was obviously not while keeping the DA's frequency(or pretty much anything that made it DA besides name and animation), it was part of the whole "make DA into a timed buff cooldown" series. Might've been just FoF-like buff for DA and IR mechanics on Delirium, I don't remember. Regardless, some people deffo asked for IR on DRK and SE listened to those along with the "remove DA" memes.

it's funny bcs the give IR to DRK was kinda a joke bcs we get bloodspiller? i don't remember anyone seriously asking for that and still SE comes and give DRK IR like seriously? nobody in the entire Dev team or yoshi himself would think that would make DRK feel a lot like a WAR? and what happen the "we want HW DRK come back" that apear in every threat? or scourge or other good stuff DRK use to have? sometimes i question the comunication capability of the Dev team for things like this wich is funny bcs only happens to tanks and DRK in particular for some reason, or we should start getting zero tolerance with memes on this forum to avoid reworks like the DRK rework since is absurd in so many levels.

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Originally Posted by shao32

it's funny bcs the give IR to DRK was kinda a joke bcs we get bloodspiller? i don't remember anyone seriously asking for that and still SE comes and give DRK IR like seriously? nobody in the entire Dev team or yoshi himself would think that would make DRK feel a lot like a WAR? and what happen the "we want HW DRK come back" that apear in every threat? or scourge or other good stuff DRK use to have? sometimes i question the comunication capability of the Dev team for things like this wich is funny bcs only happens to tanks and DRK in particular for some reason, or we should start getting zero tolerance with memes on this forum to avoid reworks like the DRK rework since is absurd in so many levels.

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What's honestly funniest to me is that IRv2 is a better fit for DRK than WAR. WAR has ways to manipulate its gauge to make IRv1 fun and compelling (especially if it just also doubled gauge generated during its duration in addition to the old half costs). DRK... doesn't.

I'd be more okay with people new to the game saying "DRK stole IR and forced WAR into a new mechanic" (that mechanic being the much more nuanced and toolkit-fitting skill it already had) than finding a similarly (or, more likely, even more) mediocre use of Delirium just to differentiate Warrior from DRK.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

What's honestly funniest to me is that IRv2 is a better fit for DRK than WAR. WAR has ways to manipulate its gauge to make IRv1 fun and compelling (especially if it just also doubled gauge generated during its duration in addition to the old half costs). DRK... doesn't.

I'd be more okay with people new to the game saying "DRK stole IR and forced WAR into a new mechanic" (that mechanic being the much more nuanced and toolkit-fitting skill it already had) than finding a similarly (or, more likely, even more) mediocre use of Delirium just to differentiate Warrior from DRK.

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If they leave inner delirium on DRK and rework IR I will kill my self I swear, there is nothing more mediocre that spam the same skill 5 times in a row specially if is bloodspiller any change to it will be better more if no takes a eternity to being used againg.

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Originally Posted by shao32

If they leave inner delirium on DRK and rework IR I will kill my self I swear, there is nothing more mediocre that spam the same skill 5 times in a row specially if is bloodspiller any change to it will be better more if no takes a eternity to being used againg.

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We're talking stop-gap solutions either way. That being said, I still have yet to see a good idea from these forums for how to handle Delirium, and I've been a pretty dedicated topic-stalker in that regard. Maybe it's time for another thread's worth of options in hopes that it isn't likewise cherry-picked for its dullest suggestion?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

We're talking stop-gap solutions either way. That being said, I still have yet to see a good idea from these forums for how to handle Delirium, and I've been a pretty dedicated topic-stalker in that regard. Maybe it's time for another thread's worth of options in hopes that it isn't likewise cherry-picked for its dullest suggestion?

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More like a new thread worth of opinions about the Dev team and his work of DRK evolution or better say DRK involution over the pass of the expansions and still they probably pick the fullest suggestion and make the job a DPS or even better make it a WHM clone this time all day spamming the same spell yay.

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Originally Posted by Quor

This is a fun game. Let's apply it to other classes.

SAM
Shifu and Jinpu are a chore. Kenki is a chore. I just want to be able to Midare Setsugekka all the time without worrying about keeping buffs up. Let's just add the buffs naturally to the job as a passive and reduce the combo to a simple Kasha > Gekko > Yuki so I can Midare every 4th GCD.

WHM
Using Lilies to get Afflatus Misery is a chore. Can we just make it so spending a Lily automatically nukes everything around us for 900 potency? And lower the CD on Lilies down to 1.5s while we're at it too. It's such a chore to have to wait 30 seconds.

BLM
Dodging aoe is a chore. Can we just make it so that BLM is immune to all damage so I can sit there and spam fire 4 the entire time? And make it so that fire 4 costs no mana and refreshes Astral Fire, and every 8th cast uses a Thundercloud proc too. It's such a chore to press buttons other than fire 4.

NIN
Using Trick attack is such a chore. Can we make it so that NIN just automatically applies Trick Attack all the time with every weapon skill? Let's also bake the ninjutsu effects into their weaponskills. Then we can take the average potency of all of that and slap it on a single weapon skill so there's only one button that does everything. This way I can bind that attack to every key on my keyboard, wear a hard helmet IRL, and roll my head across the keyboard and still end up playing optimally. Oh, also, lower NIN GCD to one second so we can maintain the highest APM still too. Gotta keep the skill ceiling high.

Ok, someone else do it now.

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Managing Aetherflow stacks are a chore. Can we make it to where my Aetherflow heals no longer consume stacks and casting aetherflow restores 10000 MP? Also make Indom and Excog 1 sec recasts incase the black mage stands in fire?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

What's honestly funniest to me is that IRv2 is a better fit for DRK than WAR.

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No, it's really not. It's a dumb mechanic in both cases, just like an upkeep buff which basically can't fall off is a dumb mechanic.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

No, it's really not. It's a dumb mechanic in both cases, just like an upkeep buff which basically can't fall off is a dumb mechanic.

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Consider, then, to which is the original a better, a job which cannot manipulate its timings and use the skill to enhance skill-gap and macrorotational concerns leading up to its use, or a job which cannot.

DRK has none of those capabilities. DRK has no macrorotational pressures; its complexity is entirely oGCD. WAR does have the tools to vary macrorotation. DRK is the only job, of the two, that stands to lose nothing from using IRv2, yet would see no benefit from something like IRv1.

Again, I'm not saying "free gauge skills for 10 seconds" is a good design. Far from it. I've been critical of it since it replaced IRv1. But, since Delirium's most often echoed issue is simply that it's "a copy of WAR's IR" (which, of course, it is), Warrior need only revert IR in order to fix that particular issue.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Consider, then, to which is the original a better, a job which cannot manipulate its timings and use the skill to enhance skill-gap and macrorotational concerns leading up to its use, or a job which cannot.

DRK has none of those capabilities. DRK has no macrorotational pressures; its complexity is entirely oGCD. WAR does have the tools to vary macrorotation. DRK is the only job, of the two, that stands to lose nothing from using IRv2, yet would see no benefit from something like IRv1.

Again, I'm not saying "free gauge skills for 10 seconds" is a good design. Far from it. I've been critical of it since it replaced IRv1. But, since Delirium's most often echoed issue is simply that it's "a copy of WAR's IR" (which, of course, it is), Warrior need only revert IR in order to fix that particular issue.

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DelIRium being copied from WAR is the loudest complaint because it's the easiest to see right away. That doesn't mean it's the main problem with DelIRium(in fact if DRK got a good mechanic copied from another job then it wouldn't be so bad even being a copy), nor is DelIRium even the biggest issue with the job right now honestly(imo).

Both WAR and DRK have issues providing satisfying gameplay right now and suggesting IR change on WAR just to differentiate the jobs, is taking attention away from the fact that they both need some big changes. It could potentially fix WAR just by the virtue of replacing bad mechanic with something potentially better, but it wouldn't do jack for DRK.

I just don't think it's productive to suggest kind of offhand, band-aid fixes like this, especially given SE's proven tendency to take the worst possible feedback seriously while ignoring actually well thought out suggestions.

Btw, technically the original "spam one button" mechanic was PLD's Requiscat and in SHB SE kind of doubled down on this by adding Attonment AND revamped MCH's Hypercharge to similar effect. They seriously love this crap for some weird freaking reason.

I would change delirium into 12 seconds of infinite mana and any mana thats restored turn into potency bonus for the skill that restore it.
That would give some depth for drk.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

I would change delirium into 12 seconds of infinite mana and any mana thats restored turn into potency bonus for the skill that restore it.
That would give some depth for drk.

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How? That's literally just swapping Bloodspiller spam for EoS spam and a free TBN. Not to mention it'd be about four times as strong, given that an oGCD has no opportunity cost.

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Originally Posted by Satarn

DelIRium being copied from WAR is the loudest complaint because it's the easiest to see right away. That doesn't mean it's the main problem with DelIRium(in fact if DRK got a good mechanic copied from another job then it wouldn't be so bad even being a copy), nor is DelIRium even the biggest issue with the job right now honestly(imo).

Both WAR and DRK have issues providing satisfying gameplay right now and suggesting IR change on WAR just to differentiate the jobs, is taking attention away from the fact that they both need some big changes. It could potentially fix WAR just by the virtue of replacing bad mechanic with something potentially better, but it wouldn't do jack for DRK.

I just don't think it's productive to suggest kind of offhand, band-aid fixes like this, especially given SE's proven tendency to take the worst possible feedback seriously while ignoring actually well thought out suggestions.

Btw, technically the original "spam one button" mechanic was PLD's Requiscat and in SHB SE kind of doubled down on this by adding Attonment AND revamped MCH's Hypercharge to similar effect. They seriously love this crap for some weird freaking reason.

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Then, give me a Delirium suggestion that isn't just as bad as what we have? I don't have one on hand that wouldn't require larger diversity reworks for DRK.

That being said, Inner Release v1 was an objectively more nuanced and integral fit into Warrior's toolkit, and forfeiting it for v2 effectively gutted a fair bit of its mechanical complexity. Bringing v1 back for Warrior wouldn't just be a band-aid fix; it'd be a legitimate improvement -- one that brings back gauge manipulation via Onslaught rather than pooling all complexity merely on how much Storm's Eye duration you had to waste before it. And note... we're on a WAR thread here; it's hardly out of purpose to worry about both tanks here.

it's not like DRK couldn't get one if they need it, i mean Delirium is the biggest problem here but bloodweapon is badly adapted to his new purpose due how annoying is land 5 GCD on it or the status of AD and salted earth, the job could get ajustments on the darkside department too, TBN is the only competent change they get and is not free of dilema either.
i will preffer they come back to SB desing of bloodspiller and delirium since the only gameplay complaing of that day DA is no more and edge potency cover a low rate of spam with the new mp rates.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Then, give me a Delirium suggestion that isn't just as bad as what we have? I don't have one on hand that wouldn't require larger diversity reworks for DRK.

That being said, Inner Release v1 was an objectively more nuanced and integral fit into Warrior's toolkit, and forfeiting it for v2 effectively gutted a fair bit of its mechanical complexity. Bringing v1 back for Warrior wouldn't just be a band-aid fix; it'd be a legitimate improvement -- one that brings back gauge manipulation via Onslaught rather than pooling all complexity merely on how much Storm's Eye duration you had to waste before it. And note... we're on a WAR thread here; it's hardly out of purpose to worry about both tanks here.

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Inner Release V1 for pres, old berserk VP 2020! Make warrior great again!