#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

What do you consider dosis to be if you don’t consider it filler. I mean that’s literally what it is in the most literal sense of the word. It’s what you press when you don’t have anything else to press. I don’t get how that can be up for debate

---

An important part of my toolkit, just like everything else on my bar.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

To be fair, though, Eukrasian Dosis is no more Dosis than Dia, Afflatus Solace, Glare IV, is Glare, Biolysis is Broil, or Combust is Malefic.

Nor does Eukrasian Dosis even change the number of skills you need on your bar relative to the other 30s-duration DoTs. You're still using another key to then replace an GCD of the functionally identical attack, up to once per 30s (20s, in Afflatus's case; thrice per 120s in G4's case).

The difference is just that you hit the filler attack's button once more per DoT; that's it.

---

Ok let's break this down. Dosis III, Eukrasion Dosis III, Dykrasia II, and Eukrasion Dykrasia II adds up to 4 spells. Counting Eukraisa, that's only 3 hotbar spaces to access all 4 of them.

But Eukrasia also impacts heal GCDs. So when you add in Diagnosis, Eukrasion Diagnosis, Prognosis, and Eukrasion Prognosis, that's 8 total spells that only takes up 5 spaces on my hotbar.

So yes. Eukrasia changes the amount of space needed for my GCD skills.

Wait hang on. Are you saying that this small difference in how the skills work makes a large impact on how the class plays to you? Interesting, interesting. I'm glad you brought that up.

I can totally understand why the Eukrasia gimmick wouldn't be enjoyable to everyone. I hope you're enjoying one of the other healer classes more!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aravell

It's funny to me that they introduced SGE with the advantage of being able to shield on the move, then they gave SCH Seraphism the very next expansion which completely deletes SGE's advantage.

---

Seraphism has a cooldown. Recitation has a cooldown. Eukrasian skills are GCD. Seraphism is a great skills with a lot of cool effects, but it doesn't in any way nullify the fact that a Sage can cast a GCD shield on the move whenever they want.

I think the main issue with Eukrasia is how little it affects. Let's take the four actions it modifies:

Diagnosis is 450p. If we change Eukrasian Diagnosis from '300p, Barrier for 180%' to '450p, Barrier for 120%', the functionality of the action, barrier-wise, remains the same, but the base Diagnosis potency is folded into the action, thereby making Diagnosis unrequired as an action.

Prognosis is 300p. If we change Eukrasian Prognosis from '100p, Barrier for 360%' to '300p, Barrier for 120%', the functionality of the action, barrier-wise, remains the same, but the base Prognosis potency is folded into the action, thereby making Prognosis unrequired as an action.

With these two actions no longer requiring Eukrasian interaction, the only remaining thing Eukrasia would achieve is 'it is how you access your DOT'. And at that point, rather than 'swap Dosis to E.Dosis', it could just as well be another 'press this to apply DOT' button like the other healers have. Point is, what Eukrasia actually 'does', its purpose for being a button on the hotbar, can be invalidated with simple numerical tweaks

This would be far less of a problem if Eukrasia did more than just 'swap button A to button A2', eg if Eukrasian Dosis did something else via Kardia, if Eukrasian Phlegma or Eukrasian Toxikon existed and had different effects on Kardia such as triggering an AOE heal, etc. becuase then Kardia would be a system that has depth enough to set it apart from SCH (who would presumably have more Faerie interaction within their gameplay)

Eukrasia still do too little today to make SGE anymore distinct. Once again I defer folks to just take a look on PvP SGE's Kardia system and it won't be hard to connect the dots.

Nowadays I just play SGE without using Kardia at all for the giggles. The contents I'm running never warrant the HPS that button provides when I'm vomitting overheals with anything I do. (I die a little inside everytime people scream at me to pop Kardia just because)

High ends? I only recall Kardia being useful and *slightly more* engaging in P3S, not because it's a regen but more because there's a mechanic that actually make me want to swap my Kardia to anybody who's not blue coded: my co-healer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by BunnyQueen

It will never happen since SE hates healers for no reason.

---

I don't think it's hate per sec. It's more indifference.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YarnMage48

An important part of my toolkit, just like everything else on my bar.

---

Just because it's important doesn't stop it from being filler.

Every melee 123 combo is important, but it's still filler in that it's what your press when there's nothing else to press. Burst Shot on Bard is important, but it's still the filler button when you've got nothing else to press. Dosis is the primary attack button for Sage, but you still only press it because there's nothing else to press.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

I think the main issue with Eukrasia is how little it affects. Let's take the four actions it modifies:

Diagnosis is 450p. If we change Eukrasian Diagnosis from '300p, Barrier for 180%' to '450p, Barrier for 120%', the functionality of the action, barrier-wise, remains the same, but the base Diagnosis potency is folded into the action, thereby making Diagnosis unrequired as an action.

Prognosis is 300p. If we change Eukrasian Prognosis from '100p, Barrier for 360%' to '300p, Barrier for 120%', the functionality of the action, barrier-wise, remains the same, but the base Prognosis potency is folded into the action, thereby making Prognosis unrequired as an action.

With these two actions no longer requiring Eukrasian interaction, the only remaining thing Eukrasia would achieve is 'it is how you access your DOT'. And at that point, rather than 'swap Dosis to E.Dosis', it could just as well be another 'press this to apply DOT' button like the other healers have. Point is, what Eukrasia actually 'does', its purpose for being a button on the hotbar, can be invalidated with simple numerical tweaks

This would be far less of a problem if Eukrasia did more than just 'swap button A to button A2', eg if Eukrasian Dosis did something else via Kardia, if Eukrasian Phlegma or Eukrasian Toxikon existed and had different effects on Kardia such as triggering an AOE heal, etc. becuase then Kardia would be a system that has depth enough to set it apart from SCH (who would presumably have more Faerie interaction within their gameplay)

---

So the gist of your new model is to take away the standard Prognosis and Diagnosis, and replace them with skills that incorporate both direct healing and shield. In other words, make them exactly like SCH GCD heals. Then we can change how the DoT's work to make them literally exactly the same as other healers' DoT's.

I'm sorry. What?

You want to make Sage even more like Scholar? The flexibility to switch your GCD between a direct heal and a heal/shield mix is one of Sage's distinctions. Why are you suggesting that SE remove it? Why are you suggesting that the DoT be truly exactly the same as other healers?

If SE did what you're suggesting, the immediate reaction from players would be that "Eukrasian variants was one of the only differences between Scholar and Sage, and now they've taken that away too! Why do they hate healers so much?"

This is exactly what I was getting at before when I pointed out that no matter what SE does, players will still complain.

If you don't like the Eukrasia system, that's fine. It's not for everyone and that's ok. But they did give us something different. If it doesn't fit your playstyle, there are other healers to chose from.

I am just genuinely baffled that after so many posts about how healers are being homogenized, you are suggesting a change that would further homogenize them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YarnMage48

[...]I am just genuinely baffled that after so many posts about how healers are being homogenized, you are suggesting a change that would further homogenize them.

---

I think ForsakenRoe was trying to give an example -just how little Eukrasia adds- into SGE's gameplay rather than actually suggesting SE to turn them into even more of a diet-SCH.

The thing is, we try to NOT interact with Eukrasia outside refreshing DoT twice a minute & it's disappointing. Kardia and Eukrasia combined has such comparatively small impact when you compare what the likes of Addersgall system, Panhaima, Haima, Holos, etc can provide for very little trade off. What they need to do should be the other way around: more impactful decision making attached to Kardia & Eukrasia system while toning down the rest in their kits. Addersgall gauge are usually the first in lines of suggestions to be reworked. There's a reason why Addersgall gauge are often meme'd with "They're the same picture"-gag with SCH's Aetherflow. Suspiciously similar effects, suspiciously similar and/or outright same potency, suspiciously same cooldowns, suspiciously same learning level. So? Remove addersgall but ensure its impact are integrated elsewhere---preferably the already existing Eukrasia & Kardion system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YarnMage48

Ok let's break this down. Dosis III, Eukrasion Dosis III, Dykrasia II, and Eukrasion Dykrasia II adds up to 4 spells. Counting Eukraisa, that's only 3 hotbar spaces to access all 4 of them.

But Eukrasia also impacts heal GCDs. So when you add in Diagnosis, Eukrasion Diagnosis, Prognosis, and Eukrasion Prognosis, that's 8 total spells that only takes up 5 spaces on my hotbar.

So yes. Eukrasia changes the amount of space needed for my GCD skills.

---

I replied to your discussion of their offensive place in single-target combat. Of those, only Dosis III and Eukrasian Dosis III are relevant, and are analogous to any other filler-DoT pair.

But by all means, let's run your example through more broadly.

Your means of performing your GCD spammable heals and attacks requires 5 keys (Dosis, Dykrasis, Diagnosis, Prognosis, Eukrasia).
SCH's means of performing their GCD spammable heals and attacks requires 6 keys (Broil, Biolysis, Art of War, Adloquiem, Succor, Physick), of which only 5 keys are actually used.
WHM's means of performing their GCD spammable heals and attacks requires 7 keys (Glare, Dia, Holy, Cure II, Regen, Medica, Medica II), of which only 6 keys are actually used.
AST's means of performing their GCD spammable heals and attacks requires 7 keys (Malefic, Combust, Gravity, Benefic II, Aspected Benefic, Helix, Aspected Helix), of which only 5 keys are generally used.

So its savings relative to other kit designs are, in effect... 1 in 32 keys.

And I'm not sure why this needs to be repeated after so many times, but since you're seemingly continuing to interpret critiques of healer same-ish-ness as if said critiques disliked what little distinction exists...

...none of this is to say that Eukrasia is bad. It simply happens to be laughable to say that hitting your DoT once per 30 seconds on SGE feels different just because you hit [2]->[1] instead of the normal [1] instead of just hitting [2] instead of [1] or that hitting your STHeal+ GCD feels different from AST hitting its STHeal+ GCD just because you hit [2]->[3] instead of just [3], etc., let alone that those fractional changes actually allow SGE gameplay to feel distinct from SCH (or even the broader basic healer template altogether).

I.e., that Sage's uniqueness could have been, was implied to be, and should have been far more than what we got.

And people trying to, say, put an [obligatory 1s GCD + 1.5s GCD pair] on a pedestal as if it were sufficiently unique from any [2.5s GCD with identical control and considerations] to make its job feel truly distinct... only makes it harder to get there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheDustyOne

Just because it's important doesn't stop it from being filler.

Every melee 123 combo is important, but it's still filler in that it's what your press when there's nothing else to press. Burst Shot on Bard is important, but it's still the filler button when you've got nothing else to press. Dosis is the primary attack button for Sage, but you still only press it because there's nothing else to press.

---

See the issue here is this idea that any skills in a kit are "filler". Damage spells aren't what I use when I have nothing better to do. I use them because I would like to do damage to the boss.

The way I see it, the more damage I do to enemies, the faster they die. The faster they die, the less damage they do to the team. In the words of Mr. Happy in his healing video, "The enemy cannot hurt you if they are dead". And really, what's more effective at mitigating damage? A shield? Or just killing the enemy before they can dish out that damage?

Every damage option we have is an opportunity to kill the boss faster. None of it is filler.

No, healers don't need to do any DPS to clear a fight. But we can help our team clear faster, and in so doing, we utilize our most powerful mitigative ability of all - killings things before they can hurt us more.

Nothing we do is filler. All of it contributes to the goal.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YarnMage48

Every damage option we have is an opportunity to kill the boss faster. None of it is filler.

---

No, there is a distinct and consistent definition of filler that absolutely does apply to each healer's standard acontextually usable attack.

What do you use when you have nothing else to use (e.g., no eHP checks to meet, nothing sufficiently nearing the end of its duration or with enough upcoming uptime requirements to be worth reapplying early, nothing at risk of wasting cooling time)...
....to fill the space between higher value-per-uptime actions?

Filler.

Which is that on SGE? Dosis.

Which is that on AST? Malefic.
Which is that on SCH? Broil.
Which is that on WHM? Glare.

What, then, do Dosis, Malefic, Broil, and Glare amount to? A shared, wholly interchangeable "filler" action.

______________________

Do not mistake "filler" with "zero-value". "Filler" has never meant that, and its actual meaning is obvious from the word itself. The latter is called (effectively) idling, or leaving time unfilled or wasted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

I think ForsakenRoe was trying to give an example -just how little Eukrasia adds- into SGE's gameplay rather than actually suggesting SE to turn them into even more of a diet-SCH.

---

Basically, yeh. If anyone thinks I want SGE to become even more similar to SCH, after all of what I wrote here... yeh, IDK

The point (though made not-very-well, possibly) is that, of all the possible designs SE could have used to make SGE 'feel different from SCH', they chose one with such small difference that it can be undone by simply tweaking a couple of numbers. There's also like... zero reason, once you have the Eukrasia button, to ever press Diagnosis or Prognosis. E.Prog/E.Diag at least restores part of their 'damage cost' via Toxikon, the MP cost increase is ignoreable due to MP economy being so strong (and the increase between Prognosis and E.Prog is literally 100), the MP you save by using the Toxikon charge given (400p saved) outweighs the 100p cheaper cost of Prognosis anyway, the extra healing that Diagnosis gives over E.Diag (or Prognosis gives over E.Prog) is easily covered by... literally anything else in the kit. The only thing that makes the distinction 'interesting' at all, is that the shields are instant and the heals are not.

What I'm trying to get at though, is 'why have a button that upgrades my 'Medica 1 button' into a 'Succor button' (E.Prognosis and Succor even have the same effective barrier potencies!)', when there are alternative ways that the two could have been made distinct in gameplay, such as 'attack which costs more MP than Dosis, deals same damage as Dosis, but applies the Kardia heal to everyone in an AOE instead of just one person'? Or 'attack which applies a barrier to Kardia target', or 'attack which applies a Regen to Kardia target', etc. Why not lean into the idea that SGE heals by attacking (via Kardia), and give it kit that allows it to perform more of the Healer Role Responsibilities via Kardia?

Imagine a new healer comes out, say they finally manage to come up with something for Chemist. If it has an AOE heal on the GCD that 'heals for X potency, and applies a barrier for Y% of healing done', nobody's going to care what small 'twist' they do to make it seem a little different, it's going to be referred to as 'their Succor'. If it doesn't have a Barrier attached and is just a pure heal, it's 'their Medica'. And it's okay IMO that they have a similar base kit, AST and WHM have incredibly similar base kits, Helios/Medica, Regen/Asp.Helios, Cure/Benefic, etc. It's the extra kit they have that distinguishes the two. WHM has Afflatus spells and a refund system to make them damage neutral, AST has a lot of 'delayed healing' whether via HOTs or 'literally wait to let the action become stronger' like Star, plus it also has an entire system to play around, the Arcana. SCH and SGE don't have enough distinction in that 'extra kit', IMO, hence they get the judgemental glare. Addersgall is Aetherflow, the spenders are similar enough that they have the same keybinds, and Toxikon is 'Ruin 2 with extra steps'

BTW, Eukrasia is just 'inverse Emergency Tactics'. Instead of 'remove Barrier to heal harder', it removes part of the heal (Prognosis goes from 300>100) to apply a Barrier. Which is funny, because SGE also has 'Actual Emergency Tactics, but also the inverse' with Pepsis, where you take an applied Barrier, and then purposely break it to cause instant healing. They could have at least made it so, when a barrier breaks from damage, a buff is left for a few seconds that Pepsis can work off of, allowing you to have a gameplay of 'raidwide hits, instantly Pepsis to get a 'healing-based counterattack' of sorts'. That alone would be pretty cool to see (especially if Pepsis had a shorter CD, 30s is ridiculous for what it does)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YarnMage48

See the issue here is this idea that any skills in a kit are "filler". Damage spells aren't what I use when I have nothing better to do. I use them because I would like to do damage to the boss.

The way I see it, the more damage I do to enemies, the faster they die. The faster they die, the less damage they do to the team. In the words of Mr. Happy in his healing video, "The enemy cannot hurt you if they are dead". And really, what's more effective at mitigating damage? A shield? Or just killing the enemy before they can dish out that damage?

Every damage option we have is an opportunity to kill the boss faster. None of it is filler.

No, healers don't need to do any DPS to clear a fight. But we can help our team clear faster, and in so doing, we utilize our most powerful mitigative ability of all - killings things before they can hurt us more.

Nothing we do is filler. All of it contributes to the goal.

---

I think you are getting mixed up, filler does not mean that it’s useless or only something that may or may not be worth doing. Filler simply means what you press when you have nothing else to press

Dosis is filler, cascade and fountain are filler, fire in red, aero in green and water in blue are filler.

Filler isn’t a bad thing it just has a pretty strict definition

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I replied to your discussion of their offensive place in single-target combat. Of those, only Dosis III and Eukrasian Dosis III are relevant, and are analogous to any other filler-DoT pair.

But by all means, let's run your example through more broadly.

Your means of performing your GCD spammable heals and attacks requires 5 keys (Dosis, Dykrasis, Diagnosis, Prognosis, Eukrasia).
SCH's means of performing their GCD spammable heals and attacks requires 6 keys (Broil, Biolysis, Art of War, Adloquiem, Succor, Physick), of which only 5 keys are actually used.
WHM's means of performing their GCD spammable heals and attacks requires 7 keys (Glare, Dia, Holy, Cure II, Regen, Medica, Medica II), of which only 6 keys are actually used.
AST's means of performing their GCD spammable heals and attacks requires 7 keys (Malefic, Combust, Gravity, Benefic II, Aspected Benefic, Helix, Aspected Helix), of which only 5 keys are generally used.

So its savings relative to other kit designs are, in effect... 1 in 32 keys.

And I'm not sure why this needs to be repeated after so many times, but since you're seemingly continuing to interpret critiques of healer same-ish-ness as if said critiques disliked what little distinction exists...

...none of this is to say that Eukrasia is bad. It simply happens to be laughable to say that hitting your DoT once per 30 seconds on SGE feels different just because you hit [2]->[1] instead of the normal [1] instead of just hitting [2] instead of [1] or that hitting your STHeal+ GCD feels different from AST hitting its STHeal+ GCD just because you hit [2]->[3] instead of just [3], etc., let alone that those fractional changes actually allow SGE gameplay to feel distinct from SCH (or even the broader basic healer template altogether).

I.e., that Sage's uniqueness could have been, was implied to be, and should have been far more than what we got.

And people trying to, say, put an [obligatory 1s GCD + 1.5s GCD pair] on a pedestal as if it were sufficiently unique from any [2.5s GCD with identical control and considerations] to make its job feel truly distinct... only makes it harder to get there.

---

Look mate. I said that Eukrasia reduces the amount of hotbar spaces needed for all of Sage's GCD skills. That's it. No amount of red herrings changes the fact that 5 is less than 8.

And there was another poster who literally said that they dislike having to hit Eukrasia and that it feels awful to them. By all means. Laugh at them. Since you think their opinion is laughable. I personally think that it's a completely valid opinion.

I'd love to see the Kardia and Eukrasia system expanded upon. There have been some really fun ideas put forward in their thread and I hope that we might see some cool changes in the future. But I also enjoy Sage in its current iteration. That's all there is to it.

Shurrikhan and Snow have more or less said what I need to say, filler doesn't mean useless, unimportant, or the like. Just that when you have nothing else to do (DoTs are still running, buffs are up, gauge is empty, procs are spent, people don't need healing, etc.), you resort to the basic attack until you have something else to do. In the case of healers, that's Glaroilificosis, in the case of every physical job, it's the basic combo, for RDM, it's Jolt > Verthunder/Veraero, etc.

If for whatever reason Square decided to remove Warriors combos and left it with nothing but Fell Cleave, Fell Cleave becomes filler by definition. Filler isn't a bad thing, it's a necessity, but much like having a plate of only potatoes, it's boring if there's nothing else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YarnMage48

But I also enjoy Sage in its current iteration. That's all there is to it.

---

That’s the thing though if you enjoy SGE in its current form then that’s totally fine, nobody said you can’t. This whole discussion started from you pointing out that you don’t feel like the “SGE is a worse SCH” topic is valid because you believe it comes from only looking at similarities and not differences. When we pointed out that to us by and large the CURRENT eukrasia system is difference for the sake of difference and not meaningful difference as every “thing” it confers SCH has an answer to then to you it seemed like we think eukrasia is bad

Eukrasia isn’t a bad system, it’s an under-utilised system that between it not doing anything terrible unique and the existence of Seraphism means that it doesn’t really act meaningfully different to what SCH does. Kardia is similar with its impact relative to the fairy. Addersgall is actually a blatant rip off of aetherflow and the rest of the unique skills have mirroring effects

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

snip

---

Yes there is in fact a reason I found your post to be quite baffling. Thank you for clarifying.

I think part of what we are running into here is that most, if not all of the people in this discussion have a pretty good idea of how to actually use their kit. As a result, we aren't using GCD heals very often. And maybe opinions on that differ but I do like that model. But, given that whenever a new raid tier comes out, the Devs wake up and choose piety for all the highest ilvl gear pieces, I can only assume that there is a large faction of healers out there who struggle with MP economy. And if you're struggling with MP economy you probably aren't utilizing your kit very well. My official position on the matter is that how much piety you want on your gear is an expression of skill. And well. Some players need the piety. I have played with some of them. So the current way Eukrasia works has more applicability to players who are leaning more on those GCD skills. To say it more broadly, the class is functional for players with a broad range of skill. But at the same time, it's also nice to have the pure heal options if a run gets really really bad. And hey it happens. But that also means that, in large part, the gimmick of Eukrasia losses the spotlight for players with more skill. And that is a little unfortunate. But I don't think that means that its a poor design choice.

It's also worth saying that Philosophia is essentially a party-wide Kardia for its duration, if you aren't using it for the heal buff. So they did expand the concept of Kardia in a way similar to what you've described. I'd love it if they did that more.

I am going to go back to my position that one of the main differences between Sage and Scholar is adaptability. Yes a lot of things are built very similarly and can be keybound using the same pattern, but there are a lot of subtle differences and in practice Sage can do more on the fly. Emergency Tactics and Pepsis are a great example of this. Because Emergency Tactics needs to be used before the heal GCD, your scholar is going to need to plan for that. But Pepsis is hit after, so a Sage can decide after the fact that they'd prefer the heal. However, the heal potential of Emergency tactics is higher, especially if you were to say, combine it with Recitation. So I still find them to be very different classes in practice, even if there are a lot of parallels in the way the class is set up. Could there be more? Absolutely. I'd love more. I just think that there's more there than SE gets credit for.

Philosophia is probably the perfect example of what we are talking about. Why ISNT it a party wide kardia. Because it isn’t it pops with regular healing actions as well as damage options, and you can’t buff it with soteria. The literal one modulation tool for kardia that SGE has and one that got a baffling CD reduction in this expansion

Literally one expansion in and they are already basically dumping kardia because they want everyone to be able to use philosophia

Then using your example of ET, sure the SCH has to think ahead and gets rewarded with potentially higher HPS but does that actually affect your decision whether to use it or not……..no you both just press it during a white hole/harrowing hell style mechanic and achieve the same thing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheDustyOne

Shurrikhan and Snow have more or less said what I need to say, filler doesn't mean useless, unimportant, or the like. Just that when you have nothing else to do (DoTs are still running, buffs are up, gauge is empty, procs are spent, people don't need healing, etc.), you resort to the basic attack until you have something else to do. In the case of healers, that's Glaroilificosis, in the case of every physical job, it's the basic combo, for RDM, it's Jolt > Verthunder/Veraero, etc.

If for whatever reason Square decided to remove Warriors combos and left it with nothing but Fell Cleave, Fell Cleave becomes filler by definition. Filler isn't a bad thing, it's a necessity, but much like having a plate of only potatoes, it's boring if there's nothing else.

---

I mean if you want to use the term filler to mean that, then go for it I suppose. But also, for a lot of DPS classes, its about building gauge and spending gauge. You aren't falling back on filler, you're using your skills to build gauge. If that constitutes as "filler" to you... well I won't argue semantics. But it doesn't make sense to me at all. And maybe you don't mean it that way but "filler" often carries a strong negative connotation. I.e. "The last season of Naruto isn't worth watching, it's all just filler". And since there are a lot of comments that express dislike towards healer "filler" skills, it reads a lot to me like filler is being used as a negative expression. But if that's all you mean by it, then sure.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YarnMage48

I mean if you want to use the term filler to mean that, then go for it I suppose. But also, for a lot of DPS classes, its about building gauge and spending gauge. You aren't falling back on filler, you're using your skills to build gauge. If that constitutes as "filler" to you... well I won't argue semantics. But it doesn't make sense to me at all. And maybe you don't mean it that way but "filler" often carries a strong negative connotation. I.e. "The last season of Naruto isn't worth watching, it's all just filler". And since there are a lot of comments that express dislike towards healer "filler" skills, it reads a lot to me like filler is being used as a negative expression. But if that's all you mean by it, then sure.

---

Filler only has those negative connotations in story telling to mean time-waster. Fair enough if you're looking at the word "filler" with that lens, but filler simply means something that fills time, whether that be time-wasters like beach episodes or something you do when there's nothing better to do, it's only negative if you see those things as negative. I'd rather be pressing a button in spare time than idling, so as far as I'm concerned, filler isn't negative here.

Everyone else is more or less using filler in this thread not to mean something negative, but just to describe what something is. If you can get past the bias you have of it being negative in this context, you'll more or less get what we're trying to say. Filler doesn't mean unimportant like the 10 minutes of recapping last time on One Piece, but just that time is being filled with something meaningful like dealing damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

That’s the thing though if you enjoy SGE in its current form then that’s totally fine, nobody said you can’t. This whole discussion started from you pointing out that you don’t feel like the “SGE is a worse SCH” topic is valid because you believe it comes from only looking at similarities and not differences. When we pointed out that to us by and large the CURRENT eukrasia system is difference for the sake of difference and not meaningful difference as every “thing” it confers SCH has an answer to then to you it seemed like we think eukrasia is bad

Eukrasia isn’t a bad system, it’s an under-utilised system that between it not doing anything terrible unique and the existence of Seraphism means that it doesn’t really act meaningfully different to what SCH does. Kardia is similar with its impact relative to the fairy. Addersgall is actually a blatant rip off of aetherflow and the rest of the unique skills have mirroring effects

---

No, I've been saying from the very beginning that Sage and Scholar are simply different, and that neither one is better or worse than the other.

I have also laid out what I consider to be meaningful differences between the classes.

I also discussed barriers for further differentiation.

You say that Eukrasia isn't bad, but then you lay out all the reasons you don't like it. Usually when something is referred to as a "blatant rip-off", that means its considered bad. If all you do is criticize, then I'm going to reach the logical conclusion that you think it's bad. If you don't think its bad, then tell me what you like about it.

The general design split of the four healers is

Reactive Pure - WHM
Reactive Barrier - SGE
Proactive Pure - AST
Proactive Barrier - SCH

The Reactive healers tend to be a safer choice if incoming damage is less predictable, but the Proactive pair are generally the better choice otherwise, and are usually seen as better since this game's fights are so rigidly scripted. Extremes+ enforce the script so heavily that they often don't allow recovery, which Reactive healing excels at.

Moreover, the Proactive healers are still given plenty of tools for Reactive healing that tend to be more than enough to cover the emergency heals needed in skilled hands, so ultimately they kinda end up being able to offer more to the party. Not to mention they're also the ones with raid buffs, which makes everyone's funny numbers look bigger.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YarnMage48

No, I've been saying from the very beginning that Sage and Scholar are simply different, and that neither one is better or worse than the other.

I have also laid out what I consider to be meaningful differences between the classes.

I also discussed barriers for further differentiation.

You say that Eukrasia isn't bad, but then you lay out all the reasons you don't like it. Usually when something is referred to as a "blatant rip-off", that means its considered bad. If all you do is criticize, then I'm going to reach the logical conclusion that you think it's bad. If you don't think its bad, then tell me what you like about it.

---

I said that addersgall is a rip off- because that’s what it is. I have zero positive to say about addersgall, it is the worst healer system by a country mile

Eukrasia isn’t bad, it’s under-utilised. I like the augmentation angle and I like the fact that it COULD be used to meaningfully reduce button space, the sound of eukrasia is also 11/10 SFX design, one of the best sound designs in the entire game.

My problem comes from the fact that eukrasia doesn’t add anything to SGE IN ITS CURRENT FORM. You refresh your DOT once per 30 seconds and if you want to GCD shield you basically always want the eukrasian version…………making it exactly the same as how SCH refreshes thier DOT and presses succor/adlo. I think that CONCEPTUALLY the eukrasia system controlling the DOT is interesting, in practice it adds nothing to the class. And that’s my wider problem with SGE/SCH. There is a lot of “differences” if you ignore the fact that when you are using these skills the differences end up functionally meaningless. Pressing eukrasia to access a DOT you were going to press anyway is not a meaningful difference, putting a buff on the tank and then healing when you press your damage button is not meaningfully different to summoning eos and having her cast embrace

Think of this way I transplanted my mitigation plan 1 for 1 from SCH to SGE in multiple savages and had literally zero problems, if I pressed holos I pressed expedience, if I pressed indom I pressed ixochole and so on. I shouldn’t be able to transplant a mitigation plan with zero changes and have it not just work, but work near flawlessly: this tells me the classes only have superficial differences

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Philosophia is probably the perfect example of what we are talking about. Why ISNT it a party wide kardia. Because it isn’t it pops with regular healing actions as well as damage options, and you can’t buff it with soteria. The literal one modulation tool for kardia that SGE has and one that got a baffling CD reduction in this expansion

Literally one expansion in and they are already basically dumping kardia because they want everyone to be able to use philosophia

Then using your example of ET, sure the SCH has to think ahead and gets rewarded with potentially higher HPS but does that actually affect your decision whether to use it or not……..no you both just press it during a white hole/harrowing hell style mechanic and achieve the same thing

---

Functionally it is a party-wide Kardia. It works similarly to Tech Step granting everyone a buff, even though there's only 1 dance partner. I can see the argument for having it be buffed by Soteria, if they want to go that direction with it.

What do you mean by saying that they are "dumping Kardia"?

For Harrowing Hell I'd be more inclined to utilize Panhaima and Holos, and focus more on maintaining shields. Since I have a co-healer, it would make more sense to let the shields stay as shields rather than dumping them for direct heals. Pepsis is more of a "I need to heal on the move" sort of situation. But, especially combined with other skills, Emergency Tactics could restore a lot of party HP very quickly. I'd find that more useful for healing in between hits of Rotten Honey in M2S, where's there's still time to get another shield out for the next hit. I mean I didn't play Scholar in M2S so maybe that's not as good in practice. I just don't think a HH type of mechanic is the best use for Pepsis/Deployment tactics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YarnMage48

Functionally it is a party-wide Kardia. It works similarly to Tech Step granting everyone a buff, even though there's only 1 dance partner. I can see the argument for having it be buffed by Soteria, if they want to go that direction with it.

What do you mean by saying that they are "dumping Kardia"?

For Harrowing Hell I'd be more inclined to utilize Panhaima and Holos, and focus more on maintaining shields. Since I have a co-healer, it would make more sense to let the shields stay as shields rather than dumping them for direct heals. Pepsis is more of a "I need to heal on the move" sort of situation. But, especially combined with other skills, Emergency Tactics could restore a lot of party HP very quickly. I'd find that more useful for healing in between hits of Rotten Honey in M2S, where's there's still time to get another shield out for the next hit. I mean I didn't play Scholar in M2S so maybe that's not as good in practice. I just don't think a HH type of mechanic is the best use for Pepsis/Deployment tactics.

---

When I say “dumped kardia” I mean literally one expansion after SGE launched they introduced the most natural extension of the kardia system………spread kardia. THEN THEY DIDNT EVEN MAKE IT KARDIA. What does that say about their faith in the kardia system? There is zero justification for why philosophia isn’t kardia itself

If you want to take that thought even further why does SGE even have physis? Physis should have been spread kardia as SGE was sold to us as the healer that heals by doing damage. But instead of making this logic baseline conclusion they instead did a cheap copy of whispering dawn……and whispering dawn only exists because without it succor was the only AOE heal SCH had in ARR so its position within the kit actually makes sense

They seem to have no faith in their design choices for SGE, instead blindly copying SCH without understanding what people want out of SGE’s design

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Azurarok

The general design split of the four healers is

Reactive Pure - WHM
Reactive Barrier - SGE
Proactive Pure - AST
Proactive Barrier - SCH

The Reactive healers tend to be a safer choice if incoming damage is less predictable, but the Proactive pair are generally the better choice otherwise, and are usually seen as better since this game's fights are so rigidly scripted. Extremes+ enforce the script so heavily that they often don't allow recovery, which Reactive healing excels at.

Moreover, the Proactive healers are still given plenty of tools for Reactive healing that tend to be more than enough to cover the emergency heals needed in skilled hands, so ultimately they kinda end up being able to offer more to the party. Not to mention they're also the ones with raid buffs, which makes everyone's funny numbers look bigger.

---

I would say that's a good summary of the design split.

One thing I will point out is that, unless you are playing with a very good, very consistent team, you are going to have a not-insignificant amount of unpredictable damage to react to. Having the extra adaptability can be a huge boon in that scenario. But inversely, if everything goes to script, the reactive healers can manage just as well.

As far as damage is concerned, its a balance between higher overall damage potential, and party buffs. Which one is more useful to the team is going to depend on the individual party. But on average, it seems to balance out as far as damage contribution.

They all have their strengths and weaknesses, and situations that they do better or worse in.

Weeeellllll technically Eukrasia do have exactly one update in DT: E.Dyskrasia—a low bar to clear, I know. Sadly that one variant which existed in media tour build didn’t even survive the dawn of the expansion’s launch because apparently losing out 80p/minute would be so stressful… RIP media tour E.Dyskrasia. You never had a chance.

Now we’re left with an impotent variant that’s only beneficial in the nichest of niche cases. All because of the bloody 80p/minute gain.

Something to note about SGE, that I think might be important to understand why people have such strong views on its implementation, is this line from the announcement back at the EW Fanfests:

https://i.gyazo.com/0dd1382dc762d691...2beca1ad81.png

People have very different perceptions of what 'augments abilities' means, I expect. For example, while some might argue that Zoe counts as this, because it empowers the next heal to be stronger, or Eukrasia counts, because it modifies the next ability's effect, I'd personally argue that 'if you're going to use the line to show how the new class is cool and hype, it'd better be something that other jobs don't do'. Zoe empowers the next one action, like Recitation does on SCH. Eukrasia modifies the effect of the next one ability, as is the case with Emergency Tactics. So, IMO, they're very lackluster displays of 'augments abilities', when compared to the high hurdle of 'this is a defining feature of the class, enough to be put on the Fanfest info slide'. For comparison, RPR's slide has this:

https://i.gyazo.com/63bf199e49fd7314...646603b9dd.png

We can debate whether it is as dynamic as the slide claims, but it definitely does summon a voidsent to help in combat, and sometimes fuses with it. And these are things that no other class does, so it's new and hype.

When I look at 'augments abilities' on the SGE slide, one ability stands out as feeling like it does something unique, something that would set the gameplay of SGE apart from the other healers: Soteria. It's unfortunate that the balance of the job's overall kit renders Soteria a bit overshadowed, but I think that Soteria, augmenting the ability Kardia, fulfills the definition of that slide's bulletpoint the most accurately. Which is why I would like to see SE just add more Soteria-like actions to SGE, with a much shorter CD, and make SGE's defining gameplay be 'it augments Kardia to help it handle healing requirements, without having to let up on the offense'. Philosophia is a nice addition in terms of 'Kardia style heal but AOE', but A: it doesn't benefit from Soteria and B: It's got a ridiculous 3min CD. As shown in the thread I linked, I'd much prefer to have the 'augment' actions be a very low CD (eg 5s), and instead gate their use via another method, such as MP costs. That allows Kardia, and augmenting its effect, to be a much more front-and-center part of the gameplay loop, a much more active contributor to the overall healing profile of the job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

Now we’re left with an impotent variant that’s only beneficial in the nichest of niche cases. All because of the bloody 80p/minute gain.

---

Ah but you are completely incorrect

... its actually 60p/min, Dosis is 370p nowadays. Over the course of a 12min enocunter, that's (slightly less than) two whole Dosis casts you'd lose! /s

On the topic of it though, if they really had to make the two DOTs not stack for whatever reason, wouldn't it feel so much better if, instead of 40p for 30s, E.Dyskrasia applied the regular E.Dosis DOT (75p per tick), but for 15s? You wouldn't ever use it in single target, still (due to it overwriting), but it'd at least be worth pressing it in more AOE pulls, as it stands I find it hard to find a trash pack that actually lives for 30s

Their fear of making it a gain in single target has functionally made it useless even in AOE, since you DOT targets while running it’s a bigger loss to override those ticking dots by using e dyskrasia than it is to actually use e dyskrasia

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

When I say “dumped kardia” I mean literally one expansion after SGE launched they introduced the most natural extension of the kardia system………spread kardia. THEN THEY DIDNT EVEN MAKE IT KARDIA. What does that say about their faith in the kardia system? There is zero justification for why philosophia isn’t kardia itself

If you want to take that thought even further why does SGE even have physis? Physis should have been spread kardia as SGE was sold to us as the healer that heals by doing damage. But instead of making this logic baseline conclusion they instead did a cheap copy of whispering dawn……and whispering dawn only exists because without it succor was the only AOE heal SCH had in ARR so its position within the kit actually makes sense

They seem to have no faith in their design choices for SGE, instead blindly copying SCH without understanding what people want out of SGE’s design

---

I think you're making some... rather negative assumptions about how SE makes their design choices.

I'm thinking maybe this has to do with lore? Kardia, in greek, means "heart". "-ion" is a suffix that means "an act, state, or result of doing something". So, in game, when you cast Kardia and give someone Kardion, you are connecting your heart to theirs, and they receive healing from you as a result of that connection. Its described as the residual aether from damage spells being given to the connected person as healing.

Eudamonia comes from "Eu" - "good", and "daimon" - "soul" or "self". From a greek philosophy standpoint, its a about a state of being your best self. I mean its more complex than that but I don't wanna type out a whole essay on it. So lets just stick with "being your best". Since you are in a state of your best, your healing magic is boosted, and you can increase the reach of the residual damage aether.

I can see an argument that this should be seen as an extension of Kardia. But for me, I feel like going from a connection to just one heart to everyone's heart is... just not right. I can see it making a certain amount of sense. But I think it makes more sense that you can only have that heart connection with one person in the party at a time. Everyone can benefit from the residual attack aether. But only one person gets to be connected by the heart.

SE put a ton of thought into the lore and naming for Sage skills, so I think that makes the most sense for why it works that way. Or maybe its a programming thing having to do with the way partner statuses, like Dance Partner, work in the code. But I think the lore side of it makes a lot of sense.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YarnMage48

I think you're making some... rather negative assumptions about how SE makes their design choices.

I'm thinking maybe this has to do with lore? Kardia, in greek, means "heart". "-ion" is a suffix that means "an act, state, or result of doing something". So, in game, when you cast Kardia and give someone Kardion, you are connecting your heart to theirs, and they receive healing from you as a result of that connection. Its described as the residual aether from damage spells being given to the connected person as healing.

Eudamonia comes from "Eu" - "good", and "daimon" - "soul" or "self". From a greek philosophy standpoint, its a about a state of being your best self. I mean its more complex than that but I don't wanna type out a whole essay on it. So lets just stick with "being your best". Since you are in a state of your best, your healing magic is boosted, and you can increase the reach of the residual damage aether.

I can see an argument that this should be seen as an extension of Kardia. But for me, I feel like going from a connection to just one heart to everyone's heart is... just not right. I can see it making a certain amount of sense. But I think it makes more sense that you can only have that heart connection with one person in the party at a time. Everyone can benefit from the residual attack aether. But only one person gets to be connected by the heart.

SE put a ton of thought into the lore and naming for Sage skills, so I think that makes the most sense for why it works that way. Or maybe its a programming thing having to do with the way partner statuses, like Dance Partner, work in the code. But I think the lore side of it makes a lot of sense.

---

That’s a seperate argument. SGE has well designed naming conventions for its skills for their connections to the origin of the medical field (side note I’m a doctor so you don’t have to explain to me the meaning of SGE’s names. Not saying that in a rude way just that I’m aware) but naming design doesn’t mean near anything when it doesn’t really translate into meaningful design expression

Plus when you really break down SGE’s names a lot of them don’t make a lot of sense anyway. “Haima” means blood as a representation of the 4 humours theory (of which phlegma for phlegm is another though black and yellow bile are not represented) but blood has nothing to do with stacking shields and then “panhaima” means “the blood of the collective” which doesn’t make any more sense than haima other than “pan” being a shorthand to represent everything within a group. Holos means “whole” which again………mitigation, not really seeing the contention. Even your example of kardia and kardion being a short hand for “heart to heart connection” is it not strange a heart to heart is only activated by doing damage.

If the only argument for why physis/philosophia is not pankardia is naming conventions then that’s a pretty flimsy argument. The design of the class should come first and then the names from there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I said that addersgall is a rip off- because that’s what it is. I have zero positive to say about addersgall, it is the worst healer system by a country mile

Eukrasia isn’t bad, it’s under-utilised. I like the augmentation angle and I like the fact that it COULD be used to meaningfully reduce button space, the sound of eukrasia is also 11/10 SFX design, one of the best sound designs in the entire game.

My problem comes from the fact that eukrasia doesn’t add anything to SGE IN ITS CURRENT FORM. You refresh your DOT once per 30 seconds and if you want to GCD shield you basically always want the eukrasian version…………making it exactly the same as how SCH refreshes thier DOT and presses succor/adlo. I think that CONCEPTUALLY the eukrasia system controlling the DOT is interesting, in practice it adds nothing to the class. And that’s my wider problem with SGE/SCH. There is a lot of “differences” if you ignore the fact that when you are using these skills the differences end up functionally meaningless. Pressing eukrasia to access a DOT you were going to press anyway is not a meaningful difference, putting a buff on the tank and then healing when you press your damage button is not meaningfully different to summoning eos and having her cast embrace

Think of this way I transplanted my mitigation plan 1 for 1 from SCH to SGE in multiple savages and had literally zero problems, if I pressed holos I pressed expedience, if I pressed indom I pressed ixochole and so on. I shouldn’t be able to transplant a mitigation plan with zero changes and have it not just work, but work near flawlessly: this tells me the classes only have superficial differences

---

I see I see. Well we like the same things as least.

Do you also hate Aetherflow? If not, what makes you hate Addersgall specifically? Not being critical just curious.

I am curious too about the transplantation of your heal plan. Holos also has a heal, did you not utilize the heal, was it not needed? Did you hit something else to replace it, or did your co-healer have to adjust? Did you use Pnuema and Panhaima? What did those transfer as?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YarnMage48

One thing I will point out is that, unless you are playing with a very good, very consistent team, you are going to have a not-insignificant amount of unpredictable damage to react to. Having the extra adaptability can be a huge boon in that scenario. But inversely, if everything goes to script, the reactive healers can manage just as well.

---

Had a run of M3 normal earlier (for a friend's alt character). Must have been like, 14 deaths across the team in total? Enough to lose count, and to need a Healer LB, at least. But, I was, at multiple times, one of four players still alive in the run as one of the Healers (SCH). We scraped by long enough to get a Healer LB out and clear. There was a moment (about 30s before LB3 came up) where we had to take an 8man stack mark with just 4 people. I had to think fast, and throw out a Swiftcast>Adlo>Deployment combo (there was also an active Sacred Soil I used for the regen), and the team lived with sub-5k HP left. Without that, we'd have wiped, 8mins or so into the fight. That would have been pretty tragic

Point is, I think that the 'Proactive/Reactive' label doesn't really add anything, because we can be VERY Reactive with one of the more Proactive healers (SCH), but we can't be as Proactive as one of the Reactive healers (WHM). In the above scenario, if I were a WHM, we'd be done for. Temperance and Divine Caress would likely have already been used at that point, and WHM has no other mitigation they can offer. Even if Temperance/Divine Caress were miraculously available, DC is 400p and my Deploy Adlo was 540p, so it wouldn't have even been enough without something extra. As a WHM, I could keep everyone's HP at max more easily, yes, but once that stack marker comes, WHM-me wouldn't have anything I could do to save us. Can't out-HPS a oneshot. But as a SCH, I almost always have access to something. In a normal mode like that, when everything's going swimmingly, I don't need to use Expedient, or Deployment Tactics, or Seraph, or Seraphism. So, when things DO go wrong, I have all of those actions on standby to salvage the situation.

Every expansion, SE makes it easier for all the healers to be 'Reactive'. But this comes at the cost of making the so-called Proactive healers, more Reactive too, so they end up with the potential to be Proactive and Reactive, and the originally-Reactive healers end up being... still just 'Reactive'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

“Haima” means blood as a representation of the 4 humours theory (of which phlegma for phlegm is another though black and yellow bile are not represented)

---

I don't remember which of the two is which, but I do know that one of the two biles is 'Melainachole', from which we get the word 'melancholy', and -Chole is referred to by the Addersgall spenders

The other bile I don't know the name of, but was thought to be produced by the Gall Bladder. I'm sure we can all guess what part of the SGE naming refers to that

(edit: wikipedia says Melainachole is the black, and that means the Gall bile would be the yellow)

As a side note, I hear more often than I need to from someone I know who does Fencing, that some of RDM's actions have nonsensical names. For example, a Fleche is more akin to the animation we see for Corps-A-Corps (the dash in), and Zwerchau is a longsword technique, not a rapier one. Guess they just wanted a word that began with Z, that is sorta kinda sword related, so they could have the Zorro slashes as an animation

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YarnMage48

I see I see. Well we like the same things as least.

Do you also hate Aetherflow? If not, what makes you hate Addersgall specifically? Not being critical just curious.

I am curious too about the transplantation of your heal plan. Holos also has a heal, did you not utilize the heal, was it not needed? Did you hit something else to replace it, or did your co-healer have to adjust? Did you use Pnuema and Panhaima? What did those transfer as?

---

I hate addersgall because it’s just aetherflow. Aetherflow was designed as it is and is balanced well against energy drain and dissipation, the skills aetherflow offers are diverse and have good niches (sacred soil is too strong but that’s a different argument) but my problem with addersgall is that it’s just aetherflow with none of aetherflow’s nuance, 2 of its skills are completely identical, a third is functionally identical and one has a slightly different niche but still broadly used in the same situation. Also dumping druachole stacks for mana is probably the worst mana economy decision this game has ever given birth to. The skills also just don’t fit well into SGE’s kit, like indom exists because in ARR SCH had almost no AOE healing outside of succor. So it was given indom because SCH’s lack of AOE healing was damaging WHM’s mana economy, why does SGE need indom? It’s arguable these days that even SCH needs indom

And with the heal plan panhaima is just seraph and pnuema can be substituted with recitation indom. It’s rare I use holos heal rather than its mitigation but if needed that can be subbed with blessing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

That’s a seperate argument. SGE has well designed naming conventions for its skills for their connections to the origin of the medical field (side note I’m a doctor so you don’t have to explain to me the meaning of SGE’s names. Not saying that in a rude way just that I’m aware) but naming design doesn’t mean near anything when it doesn’t really translate into meaningful design expression

Plus when you really break down SGE’s names a lot of them don’t make a lot of sense anyway. “Haima” means blood as a representation of the 4 humours theory (of which phlegma for phlegm is another though black and yellow bile are not represented) but blood has nothing to do with stacking shields and then “panhaima” means “the blood of the collective” which doesn’t make any more sense than haima other than “pan” being a shorthand to represent everything within a group. Holos means “whole” which again………mitigation, not really seeing the contention. Even your example of kardia and kardion being a short hand for “heart to heart connection” is it not strange a heart to heart is only activated by doing damage.

If the only argument for why physis/philosophia is not pankardia is naming conventions then that’s a pretty flimsy argument. The design of the class should come first and then the names from there.

---

As see that's an interesting take. Someone else who chimed in before had the opposite opinion, that lore should drive the design. To them that was a big part of maintaining class identity. I would agree that lore should indeed play a part in design, and that it would help with making the classes more distinct. I mean the symbolism will always break down at some point but at the very least I don't think it should be completely cast aside when bringing in new skills.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I hate addersgall because it’s just aetherflow. Aetherflow was designed as it is and is balanced well against energy drain and dissipation, the skills aetherflow offers are diverse and have good niches (sacred soil is too strong but that’s a different argument) but my problem with addersgall is that it’s just aetherflow with none of aetherflow’s nuance, 2 of its skills are completely identical, a third is functionally identical and one has a slightly different niche but still broadly used in the same situation. Also dumping druachole stacks for mana is probably the worst mana economy decision this game has ever given birth to. The skills also just don’t fit well into SGE’s kit, like indom exists because in ARR SCH had almost no AOE healing outside of succor. So it was given indom because SCH’s lack of AOE healing was damaging WHM’s mana economy, why does SGE need indom? It’s arguable these days that even SCH needs indom

And with the heal plan panhaima is just seraph and pnuema can be substituted with recitation indom. It’s rare I use holos heal rather than its mitigation but if needed that can be subbed with blessing

---

How exactly are the addersgall skills lacking in nuance compared to aetherflow? Why do you think using addersgall stacks as the mana regen system is bad?

As far as heal plans go, it sounds like you've made things fit your play style, but I wouldn't say that those are all equivalent skills used in equivalent ways. Pnuema is on its own CD, and can be paired with Zoe for extra potency. Using Recitation to boost the potency of Indom into matching Pneuma's base potency is way to make a similar effect, but they are in no way the same skill. If you aren't using the full potential of Holos, well, that's your own choice. But again, that doesn't make it the same as Expedient. Were these clears around the same time and/or near release, when differences in heal plans will be felt more?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForsakenRoe

Every expansion, SE makes it easier for all the healers to be 'Reactive'. But this comes at the cost of making the so-called Proactive healers, more Reactive too, so they end up with the potential to be Proactive and Reactive, and the originally-Reactive healers end up being... still just 'Reactive'

---

Well I'm glad you were able to salvage a clear. But seriously, one anecdotal example of a very specific situation, with literally no mention of what class the other healer was and how they contributed, only proves that you and your co-healer did a good job of reacting to that situation. Every healer will run out of resources eventually. How long that takes is more dependent on how well you can utilize the kit than the kit itself.

The labels proactive and reactive, just like barrier and pure healer, are referring to overall design. You can be proactive, reactive, shield, and direct heal with all of them.

I've gotten into this topic before but a large part of this is so that any healer class, or pair of healer classes, can go into any content and handle the healing. But what this does lead to is toolkits that are flexible, rather than rigidly centered around the functional design idea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YarnMage48

How exactly are the addersgall skills lacking in nuance compared to aetherflow? Why do you think using addersgall stacks as the mana regen system is bad?

As far as heal plans go, it sounds like you've made things fit your play style, but I wouldn't say that those are all equivalent skills used in equivalent ways. Pnuema is on its own CD, and can be paired with Zoe for extra potency. Using Recitation to boost the potency of Indom into matching Pneuma's base potency is way to make a similar effect, but they are in no way the same skill. If you aren't using the full potential of Holos, well, that's your own choice. But again, that doesn't make it the same as Expedient. Were these clears around the same time and/or near release, when differences in heal plans will be felt more?

---

They are lacking in nuance because they are COPIES, I don’t know how to make this any clearer. The skills were added to SCH’s kit over time to fulfil particular niches then SGE just dumped them in their kit with almost nothing changed for no reason than to fill out its kit. Let me ask you this. Why does SGE need the skills SCH learned overtime to fill out its kit rather than them actually introducing unique skills (and tying them to SGE’s actual unique systems). Why when they made addersgall did they go

1) direct heal 600 potency no CD check
2) 400 potency AOE direct heal 30 second CD check
3) 10% mitigation bubble that gets a 550 potency regen at 78 30 second CD check
4) single target higher potency than 1) with additional effect 45 second CD check
5) extra gauge generator on a long CD check
6) 3 per minute + extra gauge generator check

Like they didn’t even TRY to pretend they didn’t just rip off aetherflow. And this extends to other skills as well. Like soteria, it’s SGE’s answer to aetherpact, but aetherpact wasn’t there to be a heal channeller of a higher potency than embrace, it was a replacement for the fact that embrace used to be targeted. So soteria has completely missed the point of what aetherpact exists Is it really so strange to fondly remember the original and hate the blatant rip off? Mana regen on addersgall feels bad because it removes the nuance of SCH’s cost based system. Aetherflow actions cost something you have to actively have a reason to want to press them. SGE lacks that. Because pressing them for no other reason than to put them on CD confers a benefit……namely mana regen. It’s the same problem as the modern lily system. You shouldn’t be rewarded for wasting your healing. Now personally I preferred when regen was tied to energy drain not aetherflow but regardless a system designed to confer benefits to wasting your healing is bad because the mana regen is never the difference on whether you throw out a heal or not……unless your intention is only the regen and the healing is useless

These were week 2 clears on both classes and yes the skills aren’t identical but like I said, the fact that the mit plan remotely works is the problem. Critdom+blessing equals pnuema, or expedient+blessing equals holos, whispering dawn+illumination equals physis. In a savage mit plan these tiny differences in nuance make little to no difference. SCH just splits a lot of its buttons functions while SGE combines them but they lead to the same end result