Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

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Originally Posted by Rongway

It doesn't.

If there's a pack of four, I'm going to LB if available, then spam Scatter, then flush my black and white mana on E.Moulinet. Then the pack should be dead.

If there's a pack of nine, I'm going to LB if available, then spam Scatter, then flush my black and white mana on E.Moulinet. Then the pack should be dead.

If a pack of nine is split into 4 and 5, it takes more than twice as long to kill them all because I don't have cooldowns anymore on the second pull.

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depends on what the other dps is, and the tank isnt just supposed to consider dps, but also surviability, cool downs, dps of the party, and what other pulls/mechanics will be involved afterwards.


also, all this optimal talk should not be the standard expectation for a random duty finder for casual content. A 4 man dungeon is not advertised to players as a time attack mode.

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Originally Posted by Physic

the effectiveness of pulling every monster is also limited based on what type of aoe dps your group has.

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This is not a critical concern at 50, and not a significant concern at 60. It's a non-issue by 70.

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Originally Posted by Physic

if you were joining a group with an advertised playstyle, i would say thats fair, but if you are joining a randomized group primarily in existence for all players to be able to complete basic content, i dont think its fair, or love.

They have a tool for people who want that level of control, its party finder. if the tank was using duty finder implies he did not want that level of expectation on him.

i would say its generally bad faith to use the tool that is meant to have less requirements and expectations, and then impose more requirements and expectations upon the players, enforced by kicking.


the burden for regular duty finder should be that the player seriously be attempting and capable of completing the content. Not that they perfectly match the plsystyle of the other 3, or be playing optimally imo.

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Is the bar really that low for the Duty Finder?

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Originally Posted by Physic

i'm not saying its endgame tactics, but is it reasonable to penalize a player for not being optimal in a random grouping situation. And it is penalizing because the one getting kicked loses the time they spent in duty finder, and the progress in the dungeon.

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think of it this way; if the tank doesnt like the party's playstyle, and the party doesnt like the tank's playstyle, wouldn't it be better to go your seperate ways sooner rather than suffer through the dungeon together not having fun?

Don't make this more complicated than it actually is.

You have three options to pick from. Your answer will depend on the type of person you are.

1) The party adapts to the weaker link, whether its a tank, healer or dps.
2) The option to kick the weaker link (In OP post it was the tank) because the party refuse to adapt to him.
3) You leave the party because you refuse to adapt to the weaker link while the rest of the party don't mind it.

My personal opinion, adapting to the weaker link is the better option out of the three. It is the one with least negative consequences.

I apologize for the confusion, I know I did articulate myself clearly. Yes this was a standard expert roulette with three people grouped together (healer + two dps). Thank for taking the time to explain the mindset to you, while it does seem like my view is in the minatory I do hold that no player inherently is above at the very least trying to fit within the collectives will in this case the group. While I do not recall who mentioned I do fall in lines with the mindset of majority rules in group situations. Granted, my view is slightly skewed since I do not see being removed from a party as a personal attack, more or a miss alignment of ideals. Which is fine, just means if I was removed from the group they were not the right group for me.

Though I do have more free time then the average person so maybe that is a factor. Either way I do sort of see why opinions differ greatly on such a topic, and while I do not agree with the double standard some have I can see where they are coming from since at the end of the day each player has their own goals and views of what is enjoy or efficient. In retrospect maybe if I found myself in a similar situation in the future I will recall back to this thread and not be hasty since some have brought up good points. Such as the intent behind the encouragement matters. Is it really encouragement if the group removes the player after the refuse to follow a standard of play set by the group.

Once again I apologize sometimes simple concepts have to be explained to me from different point of views since for me I see no difference in value between roles themselves yet those that I play with clearly do so I tend to get easily confused.

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Originally Posted by Nyvara

Sadly things seem to be leaning more and more more towards option 2 and we know what type of people those are.

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If I may ask what do you mean by this? Since I would fall in lines with option two, yet I am not certain as to what yo mean by the type of people.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

Don't make this more complicated than it actually is.

You have three options to pick from. Your answer will depend on the type of person you are.

1) The party adapts to the weaker link, whether its a tank, healer or dps.
2) The option to kick the weaker link (In OP post it was the tank) because the party refuse to adapt to him.
3) You leave the party because you refuse to adapt to the weaker link while the rest of the party don't mind it.

My personal opinion, adapting to the weaker link is the better option out of the three. It is the one with least negative consequences.

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Sadly things seem to be leaning more and more more towards option 2 and we know what type of people those are. I'm also glad I roll with at least one friend in DF.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

think of it this way; if the tank doesnt like the party's playstyle, and the party doesnt like the tank's playstyle, wouldn't it be better to go your seperate ways sooner rather than suffer through the dungeon together not having fun?

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no, not really. because one group forces a punishment upon the other.

it would be different if kicking a player cloned the instance, and put both groups at the top of the queue for replacements, but that is not the case.

considering on average we are talking a difference of a few minutes more for slow pulls, its basically pretty selfish.

basically the group of 3 is gambling to get their acceptable playstyle tank, but they make the tank pay the price if they lose the gamble. They knew theyd get a replacement easily.


if they spoke to the guy, and he said he would rather leave, that would be a different story.

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Originally Posted by Physic

there is no way minimum ilevel tanks all possess the ability to full pull with any healer, that is just false.

and it is not basic competence to expect a tank to full pull a dungeon if thier conal aoe hate tools cannot hit all the monsters if they do that. In fact i would call that incompetence.

Also, the capability of full pulling is not just based on the tank, but also the healer.

the effectiveness of pulling every monster is also limited based on what type of aoe dps your group has.

basically, at best you are oversimplifying, it is actually fairly rare that simply pulling everything is the best tactic for a tank with a minimum ilevel party.

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as an example, when SB came out, me and a friend full pulled ala mhigo in just the job gear given and leveling accs, not a single issue, the damage output of these dungeons arn't that high so if both tanks and heals are using their tools properly there shouldnt be an issue. Also the "type" of aoe dps doesn't matter, all aoe is a gain at 3+ mobs, and all classes do pretty good aoe, and is an even bigger gain with more enemies. Also talking about conal hate tools, Warrior has more than just overpower to draw aggro, they have equilibrium and steel cyclone too, which combines with overpower and target swapping, you can pick up all the enemies with ease

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Originally Posted by Awha

If I may ask what do you mean by this? Since I would fall in lines with option two, yet I am not certain as to what yo mean by the type of people.

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You seem like a genuinely nice person so I'll try to phrase this politely. In my experience the type of people that would kick a tank for such a reason strike me Impatient, and unforgiving. Though in your defense your group did tell the tank could pull more which in my mind changes the dynamics some. And so my comment was not so much directed to you as to those that would kick a group member with out first telling them.

Simply put, if you want to be in control of a certain aspect of randomized group content, play the job in control of that aspect or stfu. If you don't want to tank/heal/dps yourself then why do you deserve to tell someone willing to do it how they can cater to the lazy bum not willing to do it? IMHO you had 3 people unwilling to tank trying to force the one willing to play their way, yet none of them wanted to queue as tank.

If I queue as tank, I mostly chain pull, you have no downtime between pulls, bosses anything, mob is going to die without causing melee to have to chase it, I'm running to the next fight.
If I queue as a healer, only limit I care about is if I can keep the group alive, if I can't my opinion on how its done now matters, if I can't get 6s of safe time do DPS so be it, I just don't DPS.
If I queue as DPS, they pull enough mobs I AOE, they don't I single target rotation, I chose not to tank/heal even though I could.
I didn't want to play given role, since I didn't want to tank/heal/dps well why should I want them to play a way even I don't want to play atm.

I switch around because I don't like constantly being in charge of the same thing. If I'm pissed that SMNs/RDMs are being slow on the combat rezzes, whelp next DPS queue I go RDM/SMN and fix that, not kick the RDM/SMN for not watching MP leves, Swiftcast usage, how often deaths are happening, etc.

Choose your own responsibility, and deal with the ones you chose not to take.

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Originally Posted by Awha

I apologize for the confusion, I know I did articulate myself clearly. Yes this was a standard expert roulette with three people grouped together (healer + two dps). Thank for taking the time to explain the mindset to you, while it does seem like my view is in the minatory I do hold that no player inherently is above at the very least trying to fit within the collectives will in this case the group. While I do not recall who mentioned I do fall in lines with the mindset of majority rules in group situations. Granted, my view is slightly skewed since I do not see being removed from a party as a personal attack, more or a miss alignment of ideals. Which is fine, just means if I was removed from the group they were not the right group for me.

Though I do have more free time then the average person so maybe that is a factor. Either way I do sort of see why opinions differ greatly on such a topic, and while I do not agree with the double standard some have I can see where they are coming from since at the end of the day each player has their own goals and views of what is enjoy or efficient. In retrospect maybe if I found myself in a similar situation in the future I will recall back to this thread and not be hasty since some have brought up good points. Such as the intent behind the encouragement matters. Is it really encouragement if the group removes the player after the refuse to follow a standard of play set by the group.

Once again I apologize sometimes simple concepts have to be explained to me from different point of views since for me I see no difference in value between roles themselves yet those that I play with clearly do so I tend to get easily confused.



If I may ask what do you mean by this? Since I would fall in lines with option two, yet I am not certain as to what yo mean by the type of people.

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what she is implying is that option 1 is the best option for the health of the game and community as a whole. You are less likely to have players extremely upset, or feel they are being punished. And more people will feel comfortable using the duty finder tool.

although you may not see it that way, most people view getting kicked as fairly negative, and almost always you end up wasting a lot of time.

if most players thought that being kicked was a normal expected occurence within the duty finder, they would probably not use the duty finder, or seek to mitigate the potential to be kicked via premades. If less people use the df, it will be a less effective means of completing content.

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Originally Posted by Physic

no, not really. because one group forces a punishment upon the other.

it would be different if kicking a player cloned the instance, and put both groups at the top of the queue for replacements, but that is not the case.

considering on average we are talking a difference of a few minutes more for slow pulls, its basically pretty selfish.

basically the group of 3 is gambling to get their acceptable playstyle tank, but they make the tank pay the price if they lose the gamble. They knew theyd get a replacement easily.


if they spoke to the guy, and he said he would rather leave, that would be a different story.

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i dont really think having to immediately requeue (especially since in this case the person requeueing likely wont have to wait even two minutes) is much of a punishment. if they got a 30 minute penalty then i may see the punishment angle. as it stands there is no price paid.

i play an mmo to have fun, not to put up with others when i dont have to. if one of us feels so strongly about something, then one of us needs to leave; if not them, then me. (e.g. if i feel a few minutes longer with slow pulls is unacceptablely unfun and theres no visible reasoning or compromise i'll try to kick. kick doesnt go through? i'll leave instead then)

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Originally Posted by Physic

what she is implying is that option 1 is the best option for the health of the game and community as a whole. You are less likely to have players extremely upset, or feel they are being punished. And more people will feel comfortable using the duty finder tool.

although you may not see it that way, most people view getting kicked as fairly negative, and almost always you end up wasting a lot of time.

if most players thought that being kicked was a normal expected occurence within the duty finder, they would probably not use the duty finder, or seek to mitigate the potential to be kicked via premades. If less people use the df, it will be a less effective means of completing content.

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Yeah thanks. Phrased it even better than I did!

The whole " Difference in play style" Is bugging me. It seems kinda like a BS excuse to kick someone. Are we saying that there is no room for a difference in style? That we all must play the same? That a tank in every group needs to be the same as the tank in the group before? Just something about that isn't tracking right with me.

I personally believe that a competent tank is the one that will most likely set the pace.

I've been playing tank since 2.0 and I've been pulling even the walls and I rarely had an issue. Having all jobs to level 70, I know for certain that every job can help with the AoE. Some less than others but when said DPS read their tooltips, they will know how to execute it effectively. By no means that requires top notch optimization or savage level of performance, as AoE rotations are easier to pull than single target rotations. In my opinion "Action economy" is better in big pulls as you are using your cooldowns to damage a higher number of targets within its active window, as well as your consumable resources (TP/MP), mitigation skills and invulns (Yes, Hallowed Grounds and Living Dead ARE cooldowns, not emergency cooldowns). As some poster above mentioned, this is not an issue in level 50; 60 and 70 content. Leveling is debatable. I don't know which content they were running but I guess it's pointless based on what this debate is aimed at...

With that being said... *IF* ANY player/job gets paired up with a majority of people wanting to play in a certain way: They can either adapt, leave or get kicked. Either a competent/great players getting paired up with underperformers or the underperformer getting paired up with competent/great players. Underperformers don't have a free pass because it's DF, same with the opposite party. The run will proceed based on what the majority wants. No one is more entitled than the other.

The objective bottom line is that those players can and should be reported and warned/suspended for their behavior.

"Not going fast enough" isn't grounds for kicking someone from the group. Obviously if the tank is just standing still and afking, that's grounds for kicking, but just taking it group by group is not valid grounds for kicking. That's harassment.

So those people were in the wrong. If they want to set the pace, they can play tank. A tank should only pull what they are comfortable with, regardless of "assurances" made. For all they knew, the tank was new or inexperienced and was still learning. In that case, what they did amounted to blatant bullying. Not acceptable.

Pull size is one of the tank's responsibilities. It's not a democratic decision. You can ask a tank to adjust the pull size the same way you can ask a dps to AoE or a healer to do some damage when possible, but ultimately it's their choice to comply or not. If you are not happy with the tank's play style, you can kick them just like any other role. Personally I prefer the tolerant approach in dungeons.

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Originally Posted by OcieKo

Simply put, if you want to be in control of a certain aspect of randomized group content, play the job in control of that aspect or stfu. If you don't want to tank/heal/dps yourself then why do you deserve to tell someone willing to do it how they can cater to the lazy bum not willing to do it? IMHO you had 3 people unwilling to tank trying to force the one willing to play their way, yet none of them wanted to queue as tank.

If I queue as tank, I mostly chain pull, you have no downtime between pulls, bosses anything, mob is going to die without causing melee to have to chase it, I'm running to the next fight.
If I queue as a healer, only limit I care about is if I can keep the group alive, if I can't my opinion on how its done now matters, if I can't get 6s of safe time do DPS so be it, I just don't DPS.

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this literally doesnt make sense lmao. of course if im doing a dungeon as a healer i didnt come on a tank. you cant queue for multiple roles. im not gonna shut up and just take it if i feel the tank isnt playing well and it affects me.

"oh dang the tank lost hate on the boss and now its ripping the samurai's face off. but i didnt queue as tank so guess im not allowed to say anything"

"healer's standing around casting medica 2 every 20 seconds then going afk but i didnt queue as heals so im just gonna keep my mouth shut :/"

I'm not a fan of the mindless big pull - there are always going to be just certain groups where I will never big pull either because there are large mobs that are a pain to control or certain stuff just hits too hard. I'm a healer main, so I'm mindful of the stress I'm putting on my healer.

Now, if the group as a whole politely requests larger pulls, I will likely give it a try. The key word being "Politely".

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

as an example, when SB came out, me and a friend full pulled ala mhigo in just the job gear given and leveling accs, not a single issue, the damage output of these dungeons arn't that high so if both tanks and heals are using their tools properly there shouldnt be an issue. Also the "type" of aoe dps doesn't matter, all aoe is a gain at 3+ mobs, and all classes do pretty good aoe, and is an even bigger gain with more enemies. Also talking about conal hate tools, Warrior has more than just overpower to draw aggro, they have equilibrium and steel cyclone too, which combines with overpower and target swapping, you can pick up all the enemies with ease

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different dungeons have different numbers of damage in a pull everything scenario. in stone vigil, pull everything means you could go all the way to the first boss. in other dungeons pull everything means 6 monsters until you kill a specific monsters.

there is no way to say for every scenario pull everything is the right answer.


also, your aoe does matter for size of pull. if you have primarily conal aoe, and the pull is large enough, monsters will walk outside the aoe. If you are a tank this means it is likely certain monsters will peel off you and attack dps/healers. Repositioning constantly moves monsters and is not optimal is you are a tank, because moving monsters can mis align aoes, line attacks or ground targeted attacks

Also, if your group has an aoe size that basically only hits 5 mobs reliably, pulling more than 5 monsters is not that effective. Rockbreaker on monk for example is not a large aoe, getting 10 enemies is not that effective in this case and more chaotic for little benefit.

steel cyclone is 5 yalms, its not that big, if you pull the whole dungeon, you wont hit all. also when you pull large numbers the monsters constantly squirm, making it more chaotic. equilibrium is 60 seconds and not primarily for enmity.

all of this is overall irrelevant anyway because expecting optimal gameplay in random duty finders is imo foolish.

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Originally Posted by Lilseph

I personally believe that a competent tank is the one that will most likely set the pace.

I've been playing tank since 2.0 and I've been pulling even the walls and I rarely had an issue. Having all jobs to level 70, I know for certain that every job can help with the AoE. Some less than others but when said DPS read their tooltips, they will know how to execute it effectively. By no means that requires top notch optimization or savage level of performance, as AoE rotations are easier to pull than single target rotations. In my opinion "Action economy" is better in big pulls as you are using your cooldowns to damage a higher number of targets within its active window, as well as your consumable resources (TP/MP), mitigation skills and invulns (Yes, Hallowed Grounds and Living Dead ARE cooldowns, not emergency cooldowns). As some poster above mentioned, this is not an issue in level 50; 60 and 70 content. Leveling is debatable. I don't know which content they were running but I guess it's pointless based on what this debate is aimed at...

With that being said... *IF* ANY player/job gets paired up with a majority of people wanting to play in a certain way: They can either adapt, leave or get kicked. Either a competent/great players getting paired up with underperformers or the underperformer getting paired up with competent/great players. Underperformers don't have a free pass because it's DF, same with the opposite party. The run will proceed based on what the majority wants. No one is more entitled than the other.

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your saying majority is entitled to steal the time of the other player based on whatever arbitrary decision they like.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

For all they knew, the tank was new or inexperienced and was still learning. In that case, what they did amounted to blatant bullying. Not acceptable.

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so, when does the excuse "new and inexperienced" fall flat? when should your party be able to criticize someone without them going "im new its not fair to expect me to try to meet any sort of expectation or standard or request"


not liking something someone did does not mean you were bullied.

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Originally Posted by Physic

your saying majority is entitled to steal the time of the other player based on whatever arbitrary decision they like.

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and you're saying the minority is entitled to steal the time of the other players based on whatever arbitrary decision they like. if someone is unwilling to even try, they shouldn't be so offended if the group removes them.

Generally when I run a 50/60/70 dungeon as my PLD I pull based on how well the healer is geared, if we're killing really slow with big pulls for whatever reason I'll switch to pulling small. However if a healer asks that I pull small I'll respect the request and do it. For leveling dungeons I don't like the pull as big simply cause there's less of an advantage to doing so and pulling too big in a leveling dungeon can also make things really hard on the healer though mostly cause higher ilvls don't give as much advantage as they do in 50/60/70 content.

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Originally Posted by Physic

different dungeons have different numbers of damage in a pull everything scenario. in stone vigil, pull everything means you could go all the way to the first boss. in other dungeons pull everything means 6 monsters until you kill a specific monsters.

there is no way to say for every scenario pull everything is the right answer.


also, your aoe does matter for size of pull. if you have primarily conal aoe, and the pull is large enough, monsters will walk outside the aoe. If you are a tank this means it is likely certain monsters will peel off you and attack dps/healers. Repositioning constantly moves monsters and is not optimal is you are a tank, because moving monsters can mis align aoes, line attacks or ground targeted attacks

Also, if your group has an aoe size that basically only hits 5 mobs reliably, pulling more than 5 monsters is not that effective. Rockbreaker on monk for example is not a large aoe, getting 10 enemies is not that effective in this case and more chaotic for little benefit.

steel cyclone is 5 yalms, its not that big, if you pull the whole dungeon, you wont hit all. also when you pull large numbers the monsters constantly squirm, making it more chaotic. equilibrium is 60 seconds and not primarily for enmity.

all of this is overall irrelevant anyway because expecting optimal gameplay in random duty finders is imo foolish.

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OH, I thought we were talkin about endgame dungeons here, leveling is a entirely different kettle of fish.

Also I think you just need to be better at positioning if thats the case, cos most of the time when I play War, the cone hits pretty much everything I want, and steel cyclone as hits everything if you're positioned right. Also equilibrium being means its up for basically every mob pack at some point, and its a shit tonne of free aggro and healing. Dunno if you've raided either, but equilibrium is primarily an aggro tool first, a healing tool second.

Also I've never had problems hitting things with rockbreaker on monk so I'm not sure, but "little benefit" isn't exactly right because every extra enemy you hit his a tonne more potency overall, so its worth positioning it right.

As a tank and healer myself When tanking I will always bite a small pull first to see how my PuG handles it if it's smooth and easy, I'll pull more. If it's grating and people aren't even trying to AoE or move out of stuff, or the healers overfocused on damage to the point that my health drops into danger levels with a CD Popped to the point that I gotta clemency myself twice in a row? You're darn straight they aren't going to get big pulls out of me.

I wont claim all tanks do this TBH since I heal more often than tank I rarely ever get a Tank that even tries to mitigate or move (Looking at you DRK Not all of you but most I've gotten stuck healing are culprit)

I also pop potions and do what I can to stay alive but I'll be honest theres alot of bad healers out there too all it takes is a couple of times of a healer or two trying to push out that one last damage spell while the tanks self heal is busted and CDs recharging and that's all she wrote. Newer tanks are gunshy from that point on.

Myself I dont really care one way or another I know Tanks and Healers come in good and dren varieties.

As to the kicking bit *shrug* I think that premades should stay out of roulette and go with PF instead.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

i dont really think having to immediately requeue (especially since in this case the person requeueing likely wont have to wait even two minutes) is much of a punishment. if they got a 30 minute penalty then i may see the punishment angle. as it stands there is no price paid.

i play an mmo to have fun, not to put up with others when i dont have to. if one of us feels so strongly about something, then one of us needs to leave; if not them, then me. (e.g. if i feel a few minutes longer with slow pulls is unacceptablely unfun and theres no visible reasoning or compromise i'll try to kick. kick doesnt go through? i'll leave instead then)

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if you dont want to put up with others, its up to you to create that situation in an MMO. You can, through party finder group with like minded individuals with specific specifications. The fact that you didnt use the tool made for that means its unfair of you to penalize players for not meeting those specifications.

if they only have 30 minutes to play, and they queued for a specific dungeon, they could have wasted a queue time of 10 minutes, and like 6 minutes of dungeon progress. Its a group activity aimed at normal completion with average players. I think people should set their expectations accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

this literally doesnt make sense lmao. of course if im doing a dungeon as a healer i didnt come on a tank. you cant queue for multiple roles. im not gonna shut up and just take it if i feel the tank isnt playing well and it affects me.

"oh dang the tank lost hate on the boss and now its ripping the samurai's face off. but i didnt queue as tank so guess im not allowed to say anything"

"healer's standing around casting medica 2 every 20 seconds then going afk but i didnt queue as heals so im just gonna keep my mouth shut :/"

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The tank one, either the tank or the better skilled DPS isn't doing their job and watching enmity, that's not the discussion here.
The healer one is annoying, not grounds for kicking.

Not changing your playstyle for people who CHOSE NOT to play that way is not the leftover's problem, it's the one's who think they dictate how things they DON'T want to do are played.
I hate big pulls as any role, but if I'm healing, I deal with it until it causes wipes, if I'm DPSing I use my AOE Rotation until 2-3 mobs are left. I don't screech for "PLAY MY WAY" simply because I don't like it.
I change my playstyle to make what's being done work. Monk doesn't want to AoE when I'm tanking, I'll reduce pull size. Healer doesn't want to DPS in large windows of no-healing (I use 6s windows personally, I accept up to about 9-12s) then I increase my pull size and use weaker CDs. Since more often not I queue roulette as a duo, I can pretty much kick every tank who mass pulls because we don't care for it by your logic, in my opinion it's wrong, so I don't. I/we chose not to tank right when we queued I sacrificed my opinion on how they play, they keep pulling without huge downtime/stalling and aggro is generally on them, I deal I chose that the instant I queued.

If my opinion is asked, yep it'll be given. If tips/tricks/hints etc. are requested I'll give it. If no one asks for a boss explanation, I assume everyone knows or wants to enjoy it the first time.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

As a tank and healer myself When tanking I will always bite a small pull first to see how my PuG handles it if it's smooth and easy, I'll pull more. If it's grating and people aren't even trying to AoE or move out of stuff, or the healers overfocused on damage to the point that my health drops into danger levels with a CD Popped to the point that I gotta clemency myself twice in a row? You're darn straight they aren't going to get big pulls out of me.

I wont claim all tanks do this TBH since I heal more often than tank I rarely ever get a Tank that even tries to mitigate or move (Looking at you DRK Not all of you but most I've gotten stuck healing are culprit)

I also pop potions and do what I can to stay alive but I'll be honest theres alot of bad healers out there too all it takes is a couple of times of a healer or two trying to push out that one last damage spell while the tanks self heal is busted and CDs recharging and that's all she wrote. Newer tanks are gunshy from that point on.

Myself I dont really care one way or another I know Tanks and Healers come in good and dren varieties.

As to the kicking bit *shrug* I think that premades should stay out of roulette and go with PF instead.

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I more or less agree here.

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Originally Posted by Physic

if you dont want to put up with others, its up to you to create that situation in an MMO. You can, through party finder group with like minded individuals with specific specifications. The fact that you didnt use the tool made for that means its unfair of you to penalize players for not meeting those specifications.

if they only have 30 minutes to play, and they queued for a specific dungeon, they could have wasted a queue time of 10 minutes, and like 6 minutes of dungeon progress. Its a group activity aimed at normal completion with average players. I think people should set their expectations accordingly.

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Same here, pretty much agree.

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Originally Posted by Awha

Hey,

Earlier today within discord a group of us got into an disagreement around tank entitlement vs group entitlement, which inherently holds more value. What started this conversation within our discord is that group of players within our discord removed a tank that refused to do larger pulls despite the group offering encouragement, and telling them not to worry if things go south that they have their back. The tank refused, so the three removed the tank from the group.

Reason the debate started within the discord was because certain people felt that they were in the wrong that tanks inherently set the pace of the run no one else end of story. The provided reasons that removing someone for not doing large pulls is selfish since it will overall not speed up the group. When I posed the question why does a tank deserve special treatment over any other role? If the group wants to do the large pulls the tank should at the very least try. If this go south so be they can adjust after.

It strikes me as odd since I know for a fact the same group of people that were upset about the removal of the tank refusing to try something new with larger pull despite the group in question telling them that they will be fine and they will support them through it. Have in the past removed dps for refusing to AoE, or healers that do not feel like doing damage and just stand around between downtime.

I am autistic so I tend to have a black and white view on many things, and they did point this out that I am missing the context but no one was able to show me within the context how the tank role is granted a certain level of entitlement that say a dps that refuses to aoe is granted.

So long story short, why is it that a tank role itself seems to be granted a greater degree of entitlement over say three other people in the group. Should the three cater to the desires of the tank simply because they are the tank, or were people right in saying that the tank role itself sets the pace end of the story. Overall just confused since for longest I have been told everything is a group effort enmity control, dos, but pace seems to be a different beast for some. Pace is considered a group effort in the sense that it is expected for DPS to AoE, yet if the overall group is capable of larger pulls and the tank says otherwise then in that case the tank is correct is dictating the pace, but I thought pace was a collective effort.

Agonizes for the spelling and grammatical mistakes.

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The following excludes tanks who can mass pull but just won't because they're intentionally and behaviorally trolls. Yes they exist and they just want to watch the whole world burn.

Thought I should put a TL;DR here: A tank's past experiences may prevent him/her, in the form of a mental roadblock, to mass pull and the game's social rules and the way dgns were designed may make us feel like tanks have greater entitlement

There's not a real right or wrong to this. There are so many factors to consider: the duty in question, the group skill levels, the gear (things awkward when people show up in a i250+ instance with i100 gear) and so on. To answer the bolded, there is one factual aspect to the answer: they're the least played role in the game and what does that have to do with group entitlement? It's not as much about the entitlement and rather the consequences that aspect brings about. Socially - when it comes to mmorpgs - the tank role is the most criticized role. In this game where most content can be done with only one tank, when that person falls, things fall apart fast. In older games, a tank dying meant that a more robust dps, like the equivalent of a drg, could come and substitute for a bit until the tank was back up and running but in this one, unless you're doing 8man or 24man content, the greater the amount of enemies that are being pulled, the closer to a wipe you get if the tank dies. This might be one of the things at the very least that troubles people who are inexperienced at tanking in this game or just have not gained enough skills to be confident in their "mass pull game".

So going back over the greater entitlement tanks issue, with what I've said above, tanks usually have to deal with three immidate concerns, which might as well be a checklist:

-Do I know this place inside out?

-Can I trust my party members to play decently?

-Am I confident enough in myself to do it?

Although not asked out loud and they're in no particular order, I feel that this is more or less what tanks fall back to in order to determine if they're going to mass pull. If I were to take myself as an example, since I'm up to date with all the dgn content, I don't need to checklist the first question. This is turns bolsters my confidence and in regards to the 3rd question, having gone through much "trial by fire" situations in mass pulls, I'm usually very confident to initiate the mass pulls. But question #2 was, for a very long time, a big, BIG obstacle to me when I first started learning the ropes. It is not as much as my trust in my party member's skill level that I go by but rather their behavior. There is a lot of party behaviour I can say with utmost confidence would not only deter me from tanking but even if I did, I would probably relegate to the safest tanking playstyle possible: the one pack at a time pull. In my opinion, I firmly believe that question #2 makes or break tanks and unless you tank for a very long time like I did and learn to shrug off the most banal and unbelievable playstyles you'll ever encounter, there is a fair chance that up and coming tanks may just withdraw into their own playstyles, even if it doesn't agree or make sense to do so just to ensure maximum survival and clear rate.

At that point, what comes after that is what happens when you can't even meet in the middle of the road? Although an update regarding the rules of playstyle differences emerged some time ago, neither side (if they were speaking to one another civilly) is inherently right or wrong. There are no rules supporting majority or minority. All that's left is negotiations purely based on many gameplay precedences:

-Tanks have mass pulled before successfully, so it should be done

-Healers have kept mass pulling groups alive before, so it should be done

-Dps have killed mobs quickly enough to avoid the above running out of resources, so it should be done.

All the while forgetting at times that these precedences are contingent on all three roles reaching the needed skill levels to pull those off. When a tank has not reached this, or cannot meet the questions that I've asked above, then things breakdown and one side must submit: either the rest of the party goes along with it or the tank is excluded. Either way, the impact that both situation has makes the playerbase really feel like the tank has the greater sense of entitlement because the moment he/she's gone, most of the time, there's no moving forward. If the trio that's left goes on to kill each pack at time to make headway, then they ultimately ended up doing the very thing they did not want the tank to do. And if they end up at a boss, most of the time, they can't go further because the game was designed so that bosses will wipe a tankless party.

Hence, the "factual" aspect of why a tank has greater entitlement than the rest of the party.

I mean, telling people not to boot people is kinda the same as telling people to pull more, telling someone how to play. I've heard of plenty of people booting for "playstyle differences" so, kinda just do what you think is right kinda situation.

Edit: If it is indeed the majority of a party vs just the tank, why should 3 people be inconvenienced in the pf to "find what they want" rather than the tank who obviously is in need of hand holding?

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

and you're saying the minority is entitled to steal the time of the other players based on whatever arbitrary decision they like. if someone is unwilling to even try, they shouldn't be so offended if the group removes them.

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there is a fair expectation which depends on the content being attempted, and what the agreement was going into that content.

dungeon duty finder only expects that you be a person in the right role, capable of completing, and actually attempting to complete the content.


what i am saying is it unfair to come into a random casual duty finder and expect optimal play on penalty of time wasted, just because there are more optimal players than not optimal players.

yeah i know, people in duty finder arent great, sometimes its annoying, but if i signed up to play with people of random skill level and experience, i accept they are likely to have random skill level and experience, and i'm not going to punish them for attempting to play the game.

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Originally Posted by Physic

your saying majority is entitled to steal the time of the other player based on whatever arbitrary decision they like.

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I always do what it's best for the majority within reason. You can't please everyone, but at least if you do, aim to please the majority. It sucks that your time got wasted, but you had a choice and you decided to not think of the group when making that decision.

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Originally Posted by Physic

if you dont want to put up with others, its up to you to create that situation in an MMO. You can, through party finder group with like minded individuals with specific specifications. The fact that you didnt use the tool made for that means its unfair of you to penalize players for not meeting those specifications.

if they only have 30 minutes to play, and they queued for a specific dungeon, they could have wasted a queue time of 10 minutes, and like 6 minutes of dungeon progress. Its a group activity aimed at normal completion with average players. I think people should set their expectations accordingly.

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why should i go to party finder if i dont have above average expecations? not to mention why would i use party finder for a regular dungeon, period? at level caps, and i do mean all 3 level caps, big pulls are the norm, not small pulls. obviously that is not necessarily the case in leveling dungeons.

if someone only has 30 minutes to play, why is that my concern? why does it matter to me if they queued specifically for this dungeon for whatever reason? what do i care what they did to get in the dungeon?

again im not advocating that everyone plays one specific way or dont play at all. simply that if you and your party are in disagreement for whatever reason, and the minority is unwilling to compromise or hear the majority out, they should not be surprised of they are removed from the duty.

Also I'd like to add it's odd that people are playing an RPG (and a final fantasy one, no less) without an interest in their stats and their character's abilities. I thought RPG players liked to read and test things out to break the game as much as they could?

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Originally Posted by Mavrias

so, when does the excuse "new and inexperienced" fall flat? when should your party be able to criticize someone without them going "im new its not fair to expect me to try to meet any sort of expectation or standard or request"


not liking something someone did does not mean you were bullied.

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Wow, talk about strawman from left field.

Context my friend. Stay within it. In this case, the tank was pulling single groups rather than gathering multiple groups. They are meeting the dungeon's standards of design, and thus perfectly within the bounds of reason and thus kicking them was blatant harassment.

As I said, if the tank is AFKing or going ridiculously slow for no reason, then that is a completely different story.


EDIT: Furthermore, if it's their first time tanking the dungeon or they are otherwise inexperienced, they aren't going to improve if you kick them. They're just going to get pissed off and never tank again (making dps queues that much longer).

You asked about the "line"? The line is when someone is obviously trolling/wasting time vs taking it slow (read: not unreasonably) due to lack of experience or lack of confidence.

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Originally Posted by cicatriz313

I mean, telling people not to boot people is kinda the same as telling people to pull more, telling someone how to play. I've heard of plenty of people booting for "playstyle differences" so, kinda just do what you think is right kinda situation.

Edit: If it is indeed the majority of a party vs just the tank, why should 3 people be inconvenienced in the pf to "find what they want" rather than the tank who obviously is in need of hand holding?

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what i am saying is its not about what the majority wants, its about what is a fair expectation for the content.

the expectation will vary depending on the content, and what you agreed to going into the content.

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Originally Posted by Physic

what i am saying is its not about what the majority wants, its about what is a fair expectation for the content.

the expectation will vary depending on the content, and what you agreed to going into the content.

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I dunno about you, but maybe 85% of dungeon runs I've been in in the past like.. 3 years have been pulling to the wall aoe grinds. Like so much so that it's a complaint people have about the design of the game. So if it's all about fair expectation, we should expect people to do the norm, not be terrible. But of course that's not what you're saying.

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Originally Posted by Kaedan

Wow, talk about strawman from left field.

Context my friend. Stay within it. In this case, the tank was pulling single groups rather than gathering multiple groups. They are meeting the dungeon's standards of design, and thus perfectly within the bounds of reason and thus kicking them was blatant harassment.

As I said, if the tank is AFKing or going ridiculously slow for no reason, then that is a completely different story.

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lmao i didnt make up "what if they were new and inexperienced" it was literally in the comment i replied to. thats not a strawman.


being kicked is not being harassed. the party thinking i dont want to play with this person (for whatever reason) and then removing them from the group is not harassment.

As a Warrior, massive pulls are the only way to actually feel any satisfaction in dungeons. That said, this is a really peculiar subject cause I feel pull rate has to vary on a bunch of things. Some dungeons force wall stops, or have mobs you want to keep separated, some dps Jobs are better with AoEs than others, even DPS with good AoEs may be played by people with terrible ability, I have Comcast and there can be days, albeit rarely, that my ping is abysmal and missing a cooldown or mob can happen.

In general, I feel a Tank SHOULD pull as much as they can by default as it sets a baseline and then adjust depending on the above. Always have that first large initial pull.

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Originally Posted by hydralus

Also I'd like to add it's odd that people are playing an RPG (and a final fantasy one, no less) without an interest in their stats and their character's abilities. I thought RPG players liked to read and test things out to break the game as much as they could?

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Single player rpgs provide the most optimal environment to do all this at no one's expense. MMOs do not.


I could go in-depth but I feel like this short and direct answer covers all the bases.