Don't be "that DPS"

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Originally Posted by Enkonda

This! People get so up tight about doing their jobs that it seems as though they forget they're running in an actual party. Pop those enmity cooldowns and help the tank and the rest of the party out. Just today, I had to pop a few enmity cooldowns 'cause I kept ripping the aggro off of the tank 'cause that could cause a wipe if the healer has to then focus on healing the tank, me, and trying to keep aggro off of themselves as well but even then, the healer has enmity cooldowns as well...as everyone else. Please don't act like the tank is the only one responsible for aggro maintenance; you're in a party so working together in every aspect is recommended.

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I dont have any enmity Cool downs on SCH. Selene doesnt Generate/split aggro like Eos can. :C #BuffPLsScholartooWeak

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Originally Posted by Callback

As a Ninja, if I get bored and decide it's time to pull, you're pulling whether you like it or not. Shade + Huton and it's all yours.

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As a tank I pull certain enemies, in certain ways at certain times to certain places, all in the name of organisation. When DPS "get bored" and pull for me they almost always cock everything up. Like the BLM in DD earlier today who thought he'd speed things up by pulling a toad into the group we where fighting, as a result the DRG got knocked off the ledge and KO'd, slowing everything down more than if he'd let me do my job.

Just let the tank pull, he's probably more in tune with the healer anyway which might be why he's not pulling half the dungeon at a time. If you get tired of slow tanks then level one yourself and do it yourself.

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Originally Posted by Jim_Berry

Yeah, I hate that. I'm a PLD, so I only have Flash and Scorn, and Scorn being a CD makes it tough sometimes, only to then be flagged as a bad tank.

I had a NIN use B4B, Kassatsu + Raiton as I was running towards the Oppressor. Jeez, at least use Shadewalker first.

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I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I just thought I would say that any NIN who opens with Raiton and uses Kassatsu when ninjitsu is not on CD is a terrible NIN regardless.

Well, I main a PLD, and I just leveled up a NIN. As a tank, I always keep track of my CoS CD. If i see a trash mob is close to dead (or going to die before my CoS is reset) I simply save it. The reason being exactly this topic. I shield lob, flash, then CoS. This gives me a good hold on everything if I notice DPS are hitting everything hard immediately upon pulls. Sometimes even pop FoF before CoS as well if it's really bad. This usually gives me enough time to start going through my enmity rotation to hold (granted, i also STR tank, so that may help as well). Usually I can hold, but no doubt, it can be tough if DPS go with huge openers.

Now, the reason I brought up NIN is because I now understand their point of view as well. As a NIN in a lvl 50+ dungeon, I REALLY started disliking slow tanks who decide to wait a minute between every pull. Because my Huton only lasts 1 minute! It's really annoying that they wait JUST long enough for it to wear off, then I pop a new one (wasting my ninjitsu CD for a bit or forced to use kassatsu) and they pull. I can just continue my huton indefinitely (practically) if you move at even a semi decent pace. But I'm also a BIG proponent of mitigation as a tank... If the healer ain't putting stoneskins on the party, I will hold us up to do so.

And Raiton isn't that bad in comparison to a well placed sneak or trick attack with a suiton. I've ripped hate off tanks real quick with those when Shadewalker was on CD and I do it early.

Frankly I am tired of people being coddled. PLD does have issues with AoE threat, and yeah, sometimes people behave inappropriately in instances, but everyone is so quick to /soothe rather than address the issues.

It is important to be considerate of other peoples\\' time when you are running an instance, especially in duty finder. If someone is putting in effort and not quite measuring up, that\\'s okay. The issue is that about half of those people become angry when you try to give them some constructive critcism, or politely ask them to perform a basic function of their role.

This is not an elitist attitude, it is a courteous one. I am coming ready to play. I will do my best to make the run as fast and as painless as possible. I expect the same from everyone else. Yes people can act inappropriately, but 9 times out of 10 what I see are people who don\\'t even read the tooltips on their skills and expect a trophy for merely showing up.

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Originally Posted by Istede

Frankly I am tired of people being coddled. PLD does have issues with AoE threat, and yeah, sometimes people behave inappropriately in instances, but everyone is so quick to /soothe rather than address the issues.

It is important to be considerate of other peoples\\' time when you are running an instance, especially in duty finder. If someone is putting in effort and not quite measuring up, that\\'s okay. The issue is that about half of those people become angry when you try to give them some constructive critcism, or politely ask them to perform a basic function of their role.

This is not an elitist attitude, it is a courteous one. I am coming ready to play. I will do my best to make the run as fast and as painless as possible. I expect the same from everyone else. Yes people can act inappropriately, but 9 times out of 10 what I see are people who don\\'t even read the tooltips on their skills and expect a trophy for merely showing up.

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http://cdn.makeagif.com/media/6-25-2015/uEzJlP.gif

Istede just ended the thread. That is all.

My favorite one is when tanks spend 5 minutes marking every mob before every trash pull thinking it will help them keep aggro, then they facepull the group and only attack a single mob so when I multidot and aoe, I become the tank.

Why not open with Flash?

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Originally Posted by Greedalox

Tanks learn nothing while leveling if everyone gave them a head start in threat. Leveling your class is indicative to learning it as well. Not everyone will be kind and give you multiple GCD's worth of threat, so you might as well learn how to deal with it while you aren't competing with 210's for threat.

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DPS learn nothing while leveling if everyone gave them protection by holding threat. Leveling your class is indicative to learning it as well. Not everyone will be kind and give you multiple GCD's worth of taunt, so you might as well learn how to deal with it while you aren't competing with endgame mobs that will 2 shot your irresponsible, lazy DPS *(#@/.

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Originally Posted by Enkonda

...Please don't act like the tank is the only one responsible for aggro maintenance; you're in a party so working together in every aspect is recommended.

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But this isn't the way "that" DPS (which let's be honest, is 99% of the DPS players because they are lazy and irresponsible. That's why they don't play a tank or healer, but that's another discussion) thinks.

"It's the tank's job to keep aggro, no matter how stupid, lazy, or irresponsibly I play."

Along with

"It's the healer's job to heal me, no matter how stupid, lazy, or irresponsibly I play."

This encompasses the entire litany of DPS issues, and why most tanks/healers don't like em and only tolerate them to get the dungeon done faster.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

My favorite one is when tanks spend 5 minutes marking every mob before every trash pull thinking it will help them keep aggro, then they facepull the group and only attack a single mob so when I multidot and aoe, I become the tank.

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I would surmise that the tank marked those mobs because (s)he wanted them attacked in an order, not AoE. Did you misunderstand?

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Originally Posted by nitaZ28

I would surmise that the tank marked those mobs because (s)he wanted them attacked in an order, not AoE. Did you misunderstand?

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Please reread my comment until you understand everything wrong with yours. It's too late for me to care to explain.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Please reread my comment until you understand everything wrong with yours. It's too late for me to care to explain.

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To be fair, if you did just attack one mob at a time it WOULD help the tank keep aggro. Should they get better? Yeah, they should. Maybe they're just learning, maybe not. Some people don't like trial by fire.

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Originally Posted by nitaZ28

But this isn't the way "that" DPS (which let's be honest, is 99% of the DPS players because they are lazy and irresponsible. That's why they don't play a tank or healer, but that's another discussion) thinks.

"It's the tank's job to keep aggro, no matter how stupid, lazy, or irresponsibly I play."

Along with

"It's the healer's job to heal me, no matter how stupid, lazy, or irresponsibly I play."

This encompasses the entire litany of DPS issues, and why most tanks/healers don't like em and only tolerate them to get the dungeon done faster.

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and the award for the most incorrect, sweeping generalisation goes to....

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Originally Posted by AskaRay

To be fair, if you did just attack one mob at a time it WOULD help the tank keep aggro. Should they get better? Yeah, they should. Maybe they're just learning, maybe not. Some people don't like trial by fire.

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And then the healer would be tanking the rest of the mobs because...like I said in my first comment, he facepulled every group and only attacked one mob.

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Originally Posted by nitaZ28

But this isn't the way "that" DPS (which let's be honest, is 99% of the DPS players because they are lazy and irresponsible. That's why they don't play a tank or healer, but that's another discussion) thinks.

"It's the tank's job to keep aggro, no matter how stupid, lazy, or irresponsibly I play."

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The multipliers on enmity skills are very generous. The burden of enmity is on nobody but the tank - you've seen the vast gulf of enmity between tanks and the rest of the party when enmity skills are used effectively. DPS and healers don't stand a chance unless the tank is undergeared, missing the targets or not using enmity skills/stance.

It's easy to keep hate, but it's even easier to go on a forum and blame everybody else for your enmity issues.

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Originally Posted by nitaZ28

DPS learn nothing while leveling if everyone gave them protection by holding threat. Leveling your class is indicative to learning it as well. Not everyone will be kind and give you multiple GCD's worth of taunt, so you might as well learn how to deal with it while you aren't competing with endgame mobs that will 2 shot your irresponsible, lazy DPS *(#@/.

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But... If you're doing end game the tanks should have no issue holding hate from you... If they do, they're bad sorry. Unless the dps attacks before the tank does that is, which isn't a dps thing, but a personal thing.

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Originally Posted by Almalexia

The multipliers on enmity skills are very generous.

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That's true for War's and Drks, but not Pld's. Their enmity multipliers are substantially lower than the other two tanks on ALL of their enmity generation moves. That's a fact. The numbers were outed a long time ago. As much as most of the Tank community understand why SE came to that decision, it doesn't really work as intended and definitely does not fit the current meta of the game.

Pld's also lack a spam-able AoE that does dmg. CoS is oGCD and pitifully weak, and Flash is a joke compared to Overpower or Unleash. It's the reason that Pld's often have the hardest time holding hate, especially if the Dps out-gear them by even a small amount.

That being said, you are right that if a level 60 player is using their tool kit correctly they should, most certainly, have no problems keeping enmity at equal gear levels. That includes Pld.

That aside, you are wrong to say that Threat management is solely the tank's responsibility. The tanks carry most of the responsibility for managing hate, that's true, but not all. Everyone can pull. Everyone generates threat. Everyone is responsible for their actions when in a party. There is no excuse for a Dps to be power focusing a mob that the tank has not even attacked yet, let alone blaming the tank for not holding hate on that mob. There's no excuse for 2 Dps to split their dmg output across multiple mobs (which slows things down considerably) and dividing the tanks attention instead of working together. There's no excuse for Dps to run off and face-pull mobs either by accident (in which case you are not paying attention to your position) or on purpose (in which case you're being a dick and should have Q'd as a tank). Just because you are Dps does not mean that you get a free pass to not pay attention.

This is a team-based game. You're supposed to work with your party, not against it. The Tanks and Healers should not feel like they are baby-sitting single-minded Dps who are only focused on themselves, especially considering the Tanks and Healers are the only thing stopping the Dps from getting ground up into red paste.

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Originally Posted by Februs

It's the reason that Pld's often have the hardest time holding hate, especially if the Dps out-gear them by even a small amount.

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idk, I have had all 3 tanks be able to hold hate without me getting past yellow on my i207 smn when they are barely breaking the i190 mark and then I have tanks that cant hold anything off my with a completely upgraded i210 set. So it really does just come down to skill in the end imo.

If you are learning (ie in a pre 50 dungeon) or really trying that's one thing and I will cut you some slack, but by the time you are in a lvl 60 dungeon, if you don't know how to play your job that's on you not me.

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Originally Posted by Februs

There's no excuse for 2 Dps to split their dmg output across multiple mobs (which slows things down considerably) and dividing the tanks attention instead of working together.

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This is not true. As a BLM I will do far lower DPS and have more missed spells if I target the same target as everyone else. A few lucky crits by the tank and a melee may kill the mob from more than half health during the time it takes me to cast Fire4. Which makes me miss a cast.
I specifically try and pick a mob the other DPS are not targeting to keep my DPS up. I do occasionally rip a mob away from the Tank, but I can handle it by myself. Just manaward/manawall and nuke it dead while the Tank can blissfully stay doing exactly what he was doing before.

The only problems I have are slow tanks taking each mob group one at a time (4 pulls from honeycomb to honeycomb I'm looking at your Arboretum).

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Originally Posted by Elkya95

But... If you're doing end game the tanks should have no issue holding hate from you... If they do, they're bad sorry. Unless the dps attacks before the tank does that is, which isn't a dps thing, but a personal thing.

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I don't totally agree with this. I do think myself a fairly good tank. With ilvl180 gear, I was able to keep hate from ilvl 205+ players, but they would always be on the cusp of taking back from me, especially if they had their rotations down pat. My flashes weren't enough to spread enough enmity in comparison to how fast they were hitting their combos. Gear differences can make it very hard to hold. If I had messed up my rotation even a bit, I definitely would of lost aggro on a few things. And honestly, may have it weren't for the fact that the high geared DPS were on point in burning the mobs quick enough.

Biggest issues I see if tanks not using their AoE to gain an enmity hold on mobs or simply not knowing priority in their enmity combos. I do tend to see MANY warriors who focus more on their DPS than their enmity and that can cause issues.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

This is not true. As a BLM I will do far lower DPS and have more missed spells if I target the same target as everyone else. A few lucky crits by the tank and a melee may kill the mob from more than half health during the time it takes me to cast Fire4.
I specifically try and pick a mob the other DPS are not targeting to keep my DPS up. I do occasionally rip a mob away from the Tank, but I can handle it by myself. Just manaward/manawall and nuke it dead while the Tank can blissfully stay doing exactly what he was doing before.

The only problems I have are slow tanks taking each mob group one at a time (4 pulls from honeycomb to honeycomb I'm looking at your Arboretum).

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To that arboretum part, that's purely dependent on the teams capability, not just yours. A single mess up from a healer or tank could mean the party wipes. Those wasps do final stings and usually, right in succession. They deal out enormous amounts of damage, to the point where it simply seems like an insta kill half the time. If you don't burn the honeycomb within seconds of the tank going down, you wipe. I hardly call being cautious there to avoid the wipe (which takes more time) as bad. However, a decent tank should be able to tell whether or not their party is up for the task by the time you reach the honeycombs.

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Originally Posted by Malicewolf

To that arboretum part, that's purely dependent on the teams capability, not just yours. A single mess up from a healer or tank could mean the party wipes. Those wasps do final stings and usually, right in succession. They deal out enormous amounts of damage, to the point where it simply seems like an insta kill half the time. If you don't burn the honeycomb within seconds of the tank going down, you wipe. I hardly call being cautious there to avoid the wipe (which takes more time) as bad. However, a decent tank should be able to tell whether or not their party is up for the task by the time you reach the honeycombs.

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I'm not talking about the honeycomb blast through method. I was talking about the individual wasps in between the honeycomb.
Even doing it as designed, you still run from the top honeycomb to the bottom honeycomb.
The only times I've ever seen anyone fail there is with the honeycomb only run, and even then very rarely.

As a tank who's not terrible, please do be that DPS. You don't need to hold back, holding hate in this game is so laughably easy I don't even understand how you could start a thread like this.

Erm... if you are having trouble to hold aggro against a dps then you'll hate a whm who's initial burst is one of the highest.

Best piece of advice GIT GUD,

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

idk, I have had all 3 tanks be able to hold hate without me getting past yellow on my i207 smn when they are barely breaking the i190 mark

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I did say that all tanks, including Pld, should not have a problem if they know how to use their kit properly.

Regardless, that does not change the fact that Pld's do have the lowest enmity multiplier. It's a tested fact. For this reason, Pld's have to make concessions to compensate when they are out-geared by the Dps. For example, they may have to spam Flash a few more times than normal. They may have to reduce their Goring Blade DoT application or Royal Authority potency in favour of strictly using RoH. Doing this is not really an issue of skill, because it doesn't take a lot of skill to cycle one combo and rotate Flash in-between. They'll hold hate just fine, but a Pld is not optimizing their role when they are forced to play like that.

That said, knowing when and where to prioritize a stronger focus on enmity is definitely a matter of skill and experience. Given how inefficient Pld threat generation is, all Pld's have to be constantly aware of their current enmity and make adjustments as necessary. Enmity constantly looms over that job.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

This is not true. As a BLM I will do far lower DPS and have more missed spells if I target the same target as everyone else.

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AoE Dps and DoT applications are an exception, and those exceptions do not really matter much for enmity, assuming you are swapping targets strategically.

You said that you have to swap around 50% of the mob's Hp. By that time the Tank should have at least used more than one AoE threat generating move or flat out rotated an enmity strike to the target you are swapping to. Crisis averted. The only problems are when Dps start their rotations on separate targets, or if the target you are swapping to is one that the Tank has not yet landed a hit on. Swapping targets is fine, but you should be conscious of how much hate the tank has on the target you are planning to attack. Carelessly going after the target that has the least threat gen from the tank is irresponsible, especially when there are other mobs with higher enmity in the group that you could have switched to.

You're also confusing personal Dps for party Dps. You're right that keeping your cast alive is the correct decision for maintaining your personal Dps. However, if you are grabbing peripheral hate from the tank by attacking targets that the Tank has yet to establish enmity on, then you are forcing the tank to split their dps (yes, tanks do deal damage). Further, the combined Dps potency of multiple players is higher than any one player can generate on their own, especially if you account for buffs. For example, a Drg's piercing buff from Impulse Drive does absolutely nothing for a Brd if they are attacking a totally different target from the Drg.

Now, if you are simply switching targets strategically to maintain your combo, then that's totally fine. It means you are being conscious of your environment and optimizing your role. However, 2 Dps who start Dps'ing on 2 different targets at the start of a pull are not optimizing the party dps or overall time. They might be optimizing their personal dps, but that doesn't mean they're going any faster.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

The only problems I have are slow tanks taking each mob group one at a time (4 pulls from honeycomb to honeycomb I'm looking at your Arboretum).

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This is often a Dps issue as well.

When I tank Arboretum, I am all for pulling the whole hallway and skipping the adds, but not all Dps are good enough to make that pull. These days, almost every Dps team I run into thinks they're amazing, but the sad fact is that most of them cannot burn the adds fast enough to avoid Final Stings. Tanks can hold those stings off by using their ultimate defense (Hallowed Ground, Walking Dead, Holmgang), but that defense lasts a maximum of 10 seconds (much less if you are War, and a Drk's Walking Dead can be instantly canceled if the healer doesn't notice it and heals them to full). If the Dps are slow, then there is no point to trying to make a full run.

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Originally Posted by Februs

These days, almost every Dps team I run into thinks they're amazing

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I agree with you on this. Saying that the only scenario where tanks can have aggro issue is pre-50 duties.

Beyond that tanks have more than enough skills to generate snap aggro. your comment about DPS not being effective in a party can be turned around and argued against a tank who fails to not understand how to engage a group of mobs and how to hold aggro.

I have seen many scenarios where the DPS have held back, the tank blew through all of his CDs, the mobs are still alive and the healer is OOM

A tank that cannot hold aggro is not the responsibility of the DPS, it is just as likely the healer will sooner or later rip aggro simply by healing as well.

I tend to pop cd after the pull starts and I still out threat the tank.

If DRG then it was normally because the tank is excessively switching targets to hit individually instead of using flash/OP/AoEs. This ends with me tanking the tanks original target or #1 target. And no I don't start with dragonfire dive.
If SMN, then it switching targets does not matter, we always AoE.
If BRD. . .. .any combo of the first two and that is it.
If BLM. . . . ^
If MNK. . . .. . . .^

You all have the space to shield lob then flash assuming you used lob from a distance. Circle of Scorn being a oGCD will help a ton as you can use it between lob and flash.
And I hate to sound mean but I and many others will NOT throttle back for the things you simply can AND refuse to do. And sorry if there is nothing you can do (if it is clear you are underpowered).

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

I and many others will NOT throttle back for the things you simply can AND refuse to do.

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Well YOU could always cycle the mobs if you start getting too much hate, but I guess you only apply this logic to others but not yourself. The tank must be perfect and manage hate on multiple mobs but you can tunnel vision on one mob and desregard everything else. Alternatively, you could just work with your party instead of against it and be a good DPS.

Hate is a group effort, anyone who has a clue about how to work as a team will already know this and I don't care how bad ass you think you are if you're constantly pulling hate and making your healer and tanks life more difficult then you're a bad DPS. Sure the tank might be bad too but that's no excuse.

If I pull hate straight after shield lob with a thundercloud or firestarter proc and screw the pull up then that's my fault, not the tanks. If I start pulling hate with sustained damage then I have to throttle back or change target because a little less damage is better than hate being a mess and one DPS laying KO on the floor.

Sure, some tanks are awful and can't really do the job properly, but if we're talking about a competent tank that does flash and that does use the right rotation then it's up the the DPS to work with what they've got, not cause chaos and blame the tank.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

Alternatively, you could just work with your party instead of against it and be a good DPS.

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What part of " . ..for the things you simply can AND refuse to do." do you not understand?

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

Hate is a group effort, anyone who has a clue about how to work as a team will already know this and I don't care how bad ass you think you are if you're constantly pulling hate and making your healer and tanks life more difficult then you're a bad DPS. Sure the tank might be bad too but that's no excuse.

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Wow, this one gets it.

Good answer to the "it's the tank's job to clean up after me" attitude of yet another lazy, irresponsible DPS.

I actually think these clowns should spend some time playing a tank. Certainly I wouldn't expect them to learn much. That requires responsibility, and insight, which they lack. That's why they are DPS in the first place. But at the minimum they could transfer some of the (granted, small amount due to their limitations) gained knowledge of what it's like being a tank---> over to their job as DPS.

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Originally Posted by FunkyBunch

The only problems I have are slow tanks taking each mob group one at a time (4 pulls from honeycomb to honeycomb I'm looking at your Arboretum).

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Here's an easy solution: Play the tank yourself. Then you can go at whatever pace you want.

Protip: You will find that your pace will be more determined by your group's capability than by your own personal needs and wants. But then, only tanks and sometimes healers understand such limitations. DPS can be carefree, lazy, and never worry about such things except to rail on the tank or healer that isn't going fast enough for their armchair-quarterbacking selves.

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Originally Posted by Februs

You said that you have to swap around 50% of the mob's Hp. By that time the Tank should have at least used more than one AoE threat generating move or flat out rotated an enmity strike to the target you are swapping to. Crisis averted. The only problems are when Dps start their rotations on separate targets, or if the target you are swapping to is one that the Tank has not yet landed a hit on. Swapping targets is fine, but you should be conscious of how much hate the tank has on the target you are planning to attack. Carelessly going after the target that has the least threat gen from the tank is irresponsible, especially when there are other mobs with higher enmity in the group that you could have switched to.

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I'm gonna be honest with you here, Februs: What you just said would require thought, consideration, and mindfulness by a DPS. That's harder to find than a virgin at a bar.

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Originally Posted by nitaZ28

Good answer to the "it's the tank's job to clean up after me" attitude of yet another lazy, irresponsible DPS.

I actually think these clowns should spend some time playing a tank. Certainly I wouldn't expect them to learn much. That requires responsibility, and insight, which they lack. That's why they are DPS in the first place. But at the minimum they could transfer some of the (granted, small amount due to their limitations) gained knowledge of what it's like being a tank---> over to their job as DPS.

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Good answer for someone who doesn't get how teamwork works.
"Let's make DPS understand Tanks, but let's not make Tanks understand DPS. It's always DPS's fault."
You can't just flip everything on DPS just because they're not tanks.
Everyone has their own responsibilities. Sure the other can help in some way but ultimately your responsibilities are your own.

What about when a tank refuses to use AoE, doesn't mark a thing, and switches targets every 2 seconds to fast blade one thing, savage blade another, rage of halone another after that and fast blade the first one again? That's ineffective vs. a DPS who is attacking whomever the tank attacked first and to DPS who frequently AoE. Nobody's going to guess every 2 seconds, that lack of focus and leadership leads to chaos on its own. But of course lets blame DPS for what the tank did not do to easily prevent that mess. It's almost if not just as bad as saying it's DPS's fault for not being able to get their positionals while the tank is randomly and constantly spinning the mobs.
Oh wait, I bet you wanna tell the summoner to wait before taking the time it already takes to set up their DoTs, even though by the time you get to level 52 you ought to be used to lobbing from a distance and flashing when you get close by then. And don't you lie to me about how that doesn't happen. And if you've been starting pulls with provoke, then it's not them who's the problem, YOU are the problem. Provoke does nothing when nobody has threat, which means even a card or eye for eye will draw attention.
It's extremely irresponsible to not mark and expect them to attack your targets, especially when you constantly switch targets or if the first one dies, at which point is resolved by using AoEs like you should have in the first place. That doesn't mean you can't expect them to not attack the bees first and other similar targets of priority.

What about when a tank comes there underpowered? Are you really going to conform to the tank's low standards when a piercing talon does as much threat as the tank's shield lob? How is that really fair, fun, or nice to DPS to blame them for coming there even barely prepared unlike the tank?

That's among other things by the way.

Obviously I have to mention when some hardcore hubris twit gives you a hard time. But I'm not because there's more important things to worry about that those worthless twits.

Hate is the tank's responsibility. This isn't an equal effort for threat, you most of all have to have the most threat. You have the tools, the multipliers, and the options to make it happen when DPS has none of that, and healers do 1/2 threat with healing. And the only times it's the DPS's fault is if they attacked during long pulls, somehow ruin pulls before any real fighting start, pull before tank pulls, attacks the wrong targets when marked and I mean single targets, if DPS fail to beat mechanics they are responsible for, fail to evade which causes problems for all of you, die excessively which causes problems for all of you, among other things.

By the way, as a main tank player in this game. It's easy. All you have to do is strike and flash, strike and flash, strike and flash, strike and flash, strike and flash. Flash does not interrupt combos, so it is a constant stream of threat and blinds. None of this complicated fake junk that the meta might have you believe. It's not even complicated to see that having to compete with DPS who are better geared than you will be a you problem YOU have to deal with as well. Easiest solution to that is to invest in some strength until you get better gear, and a lot of those threat problems will be go away. You got the time and space to shield lob, circle of scorn and flash before any good DPS hammers them.

DPS has to deal with timers, delays in their own moves, random procs, positionals, every new wrench to their long list of chores to deal high amounts of damage, more mechanics than a Tank will EVER be responsible for, being randomly targeted by bosses most of the time, and having to depend on the tank to do their job. But no, let's just pretend DPS is so lazy and free of responsibilities.

The best part about your responsibilities as the tank is so that you can make it easier on them, NOT to be pushing YOUR responsibilities onto them. If you can't understand that, then it won't be a wonder why you struggle to be a good tank or at any job for that matter.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

What part of " . ..for the things you simply can AND refuse to do." do you not understand?

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The part where you make out you take hate all the time on different jobs and blame the tank for it. It's your responsibility too yet you refuse to throttle back, you even apologise if the tank is undergeared meaning you do it to new tanks too. That's a bad DPS. For further information, read my previous post again ;)

Honestly, as a BLM main I could tank as much as I wanted and the tank wouldn't be able to do much about it, especially DF tanks. It's not about me being a bad ass, it's about working together and showing each other a little respect.

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Originally Posted by Artemiz

The part where you make out you take hate all the time on different jobs and blame the tank for it. It's your responsibility too yet you refuse to throttle back, you even apologise if the tank is undergeared meaning you do it to new tanks too. That's a bad DPS. For further information, read my previous post again ;)

Honestly, as a BLM main I could tank as much as I wanted and the tank wouldn't be able to do much about it, especially DF tanks. It's not about me being a bad ass, it's about working together and showing each other a little respect.

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No competent tank should lose threat to a responsible black mage.

Being a responsible black mage doesn't mean throttling yourself because everything's orange. It means you you give a few seconds of leeway before going balls to the wall. The only tank that might have an issue with this is the Paladin. Dark Knights and Warriors have no excuse, assuming gear is equal.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

No competent tank should lose threat to a responsible black mage.

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For the most part I completely agree with you, though it's worth pointing out the BLM opener can be pretty spicy and quelling strikes becomes mandatory at some point. The key word for me though is responsible, I was trying to point out that DPS also have a responsibility where hate is concerned. I can't just focus one mob with a RR enhanced Fire 4 rotation in an AoE pull and blame the tank when it causes problems, I can't pick a mob that the tank has clearly not focused on yet and pull it away and blame the tank. When playing my PLD I do see this a lot, in a pull of 3 mobs and both DPS pick a different one to go balls to the wall on, I can always use voke obviously but I'd argue the team synergy isn't exactly brilliant in that situation and could be better. What we end up with is two mobs dying slowly instead of one dying twice as fast, resulting in more work for both healer and tank.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Being a responsible black mage doesn't mean throttling yourself because everything's orange. It means you you give a few seconds of leeway before going balls to the wall. The only tank that might have an issue with this is the Paladin. Dark Knights and Warriors have no excuse, assuming gear is equal.

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I'd say giving a few seconds leeway is throttling back to be honest. The point you make about gear (and skill) being equal is very important, an undergeared tank needs to be treated with kid gloves by a better geared DPS, especially if it's one of the big hitting burst types like BLM. As long as someone meets the minimum ilvl requirement for the instance and is obviously trying then I try to work with them and see their hate level as the ceiling I have to get close to but not go over. That to me is a good, responsible DPS.
I mean sure, I don't like it when WAR's don't use Overpower or PLD's don't flash but the amount of tanks I come across that are that bad are quite rare and I use DF a lot, usually after the first pull (where hate can be a little messy) they get the picture and raise their game a bit. That said I'm not above spreading thunder around before going full AoE if they're really struggling with hate, or even sticking to single target if it's really that bad.

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

By the way, as a main tank player in this game. It's easy. All you have to do is strike and flash, strike and flash, strike and flash, strike and flash, strike and flash. Flash does not interrupt combos, so it is a constant stream of threat and blinds. None of this complicated fake junk that the meta might have you believe.

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For a person who mains Tanking, you don't seem to understand how to use a Pld correctly. So I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume that you just don't use Pld very often ... If ever. I wouldn't worry about it though. These days, most "main tank" players don't use Pld very often, let alone correctly.

In case you're interested though, Flash spamming is not how to tank mobs on Pld. Flash spamming is how you face-roll derp tank on Pld. You'll hold aggro like this, sure, but you are far from optimizing your roll. Flash should be cycled in accordance to the number of mobs being tanked and coordinated with the use of CoS, not just added willy-nilly between each attack. Given that party dps is the responsibility of the entire party, tanking using additional and unnecessary Flashes (which deals a whopping 0 dmg) is actively working against the party. It doesn't interrupt your combo, that's true, but it delays the combo for approximately 2.5 seconds (depending on personal skill speed). That's 2.5 seconds in which the Pld could be applying a DoT (Goring Blade) or reducing incoming Dmg (RoH, which also has the added benefit of having a much higher enmity generation than Flash). The Blind debuff is also wasted, because spamming Flash overlaps the timer of Blind, and Blind is resisted after 3 applications. There's more to it than this, but the short hand is that using additional Flashes past the minimum required is a waste of enmity, dps, and mitigation ... Of course, this would not matter to someone who thinks that the current Tank meta is "complicated fake junk," so I guess I'll just leave it there.

That aside, I do find it strange that you seem to have such difficulty with monitoring enmity, especially for someone who supposedly mains a Tank. Last I checked, the enmity meter is view-able to every player who is in combat, regardless of them being a tank or not. So, I'm not sure where all this guess work is coming in for you. I mean, the enmity bar is even colour coded for ease of use and convenience, and it's not like swapping targets is all that difficult. Pressing Tab or cycling on a D-pad seems pretty straight forward and doesn't throttle back a player's Dps at all. Given that maximizing party Dps is the sole responsibility of the Dps (something you seem to be advocating strongly), I would have thought that knowing how to cycle targets fluidly for proper DoT and Buff/Debuff applications would have been an essential skill for a Dps player. At the very least they might want to avoid accidentally turning a mob by stealing enmity and losing out on those positional potency bonuses you mentioned. I did not realize that it was so much harder for them to manage that ...

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Originally Posted by RiisWolf

What about when a tank refuses to use AoE,doesn't mark a thing, and switches targets every 2 seconds to fast blade one thing, savage blade another, rage of halone another after that and fast blade the first one again? That's ineffective vs. a DPS who is attacking whomever the tank attacked first and to DPS who frequently AoE.

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DPS should not blindly assist tank. Depending on the tank class, most are gonna be switching around. Especially on PLD.

It's simply a more efficient use of your resource to be landing your chain enmity skills on extra mobs (as possible, depending on the status of aggro on central target) than it is to be using your AoE enmity generators.
Poor resource spending isn't always a visible thing, and may not matter depending on gear/levels vs. content. But when it DOES matter, it matters a LOT. It can be the difference between comfortably controlling a bad situation or extended fight, or your group getting wiped.

That's not to excuse the tank that isn't telling his DPS who the central target is (via marks is easiest), or isn't remaining aware and alert about the status of aggro on that mob.

When tanking, I prefer to make it as idiot-proof as possible for the rest of the group. Years of experience at this has taught me. Running a group, especially after the invention of the "dungeon finder" system for MMORPGs, is a lot like herding cats.

If I had a nickel for every time the mob marked with the big "1" over it's head was the LAST MAN STANDING? I'd be running for PoTUS.