Tank dps harrasment

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LalaRu

Wrong on many levels. That data is private within the party.

---

It isn't private though. Anything that gets written to the battle log can be seen by anyone else around you, whether they're in your group or not (and did you know that everything printed to the logs is also saved locally on each machine's HDD?):

Example 1: Say we're in a 24-man raid together, but you're in Group A and I'm in Group B. I could still look at my battle log and see everything you do. As in, I can use my eyeballs and don't require a parser to see things like what buffs you used, what attacks you performed, how much damage they did, whether or not they crit, etc. That's how most parsers work in the first place: by reading the battle log and then displaying the information in a way that's easier to understand (but could still be done by hand if you had pen, paper, and too much free time).

Example 2: Let's say you're out in the world fighting a Hunt mob. I happen to walk by your group on my way to do something unrelated. Guess what? I could still look at my battle log and see everything that you're doing even though I'm not in your party or engaged with the same mob.

If you're grouped with other people or even remotely close enough to them that your information gets printed to their log, your information is not private and they don't require your permission to upload it or do whatever else they want with it.

Quote:

---

Because that data was uploaded without my consent, doesn't make it free to all.

---

Whether or not you want them to upload it is irrelevant because you don't get to claim sole ownership over something that was available to the public the moment it got written to everyone else's battle log.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Did you just copy your post over from the other thread? Lol

---

Yeah.. i need to make a few edits but more or less the same thing is said... ppl will be close minded. Knowing is half the battle for this. Know the class know what you can do. And do what you feel comfortable doing. If you feel you can do more... Great. Just... yeah.. It's your account. Play for fun.

Sad thing is I recall the pvp forums having fewer threads regarding toxic behavior, yet SE got involved. Prob rose tinted goggles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

Sad thing is I recall the pvp forums having fewer threads regarding toxic behavior, yet SE got involved. Prob rose tinted goggles.

---

Are you asking for SE to change all dungeon and PF chat to the same communication systems as Pvp?

My guess is the reason they aren’t doing anything is because it isn’t as large of a problem people as people think it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Sorry if this post sounds weird as well but re-reading this thread from start to finish made me feel like I just read a novel where pyrrhic victories and downer endings come abundant.

---

No, you about have the right of it. The PUG world is a business world, almost all formality with no familiarity. It was different back in older MMOs, since communities were like small towns; but now it's like big cities - cold, hard, and difficult to get yourself going unless you were pretty much raised there. You're just another face in a see of hundreds or thousands. Most won't ever remember your name.

You don't need a FC, even they can be cold; all about just having numbers. It's great just having a handful of folk who you get to know and enjoy being around, may end up starting your own FC together, which is nice. But don't let that stop you from looking. Even in a big FC you can find good folk who've found themselves there too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MeridaQ

Are you asking for SE to change all dungeon and PF chat to the same communication systems as Pvp?

My guess is the reason they aren’t doing anything is because it isn’t as large of a problem people as people think it is.

---

Not even sure SE can do much of anything expect maybe request FFlogs to make their site opt in instead of out or make it so the data is personal. Though SE is much smarter then I, pretty sure they can come up with something, lawl that chat ban did work wonders. :pensive:

Kicker is people on the pvp forums said the same thing that it is not as wide spread as people made it out to be. Though many parallels can be drawn.

Memes aside people said the pvp community was toxic as fuck, and toxic behavior in pve is mostly happens in a vacuum. Though rip with the amount of threads and length of said threads equates to a vacuum. Though my honest guess is due the sample size of the pvp community at the time the number of reports compared to active players that pvp was properly fairly large. Given more people pve, the reports numbers would have to be huge for their metrics to show a problem. Since I had doubt those that make such decisions read each report more like just got an overview of negative reports tied to active players. So for a purely ratio point of view yeah toxic behavior in pve is not much of an issue, but I would love to see the data in number form since idk for some odd reason I feel as if the toxic behavior in pve has a tad more reports. Now I know most will say well duh more people pve thus larger number of reports will be made. That is why going based off the overall data is best, that would only be fair if both elements had similar player base.

Also given the smaller sample size you will more likely to run into the toxic handful in pvp, and most the time said toxic people were only pricks if they were losing. So if you happened to know what you were doing they were as kind as could be. So if a player is more likely to run into a player that is toxic you might be more inclined to report them. While in pve most of the time you can avoid the toxic people.

Still none of this means the harassment in pve is any less an issue. Though clearly most people do not see it that way. What makes harassment an issue is frequency for people I guess, which is sad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SenorPatty

Welp

---

What I will say is, try to find a smaller more cozy FC. There's plenty big ones about that just care about the numbers because the more members they recruit and have in the FC doing stuff, the more FC points you'll get (which are then used to purchase things). Often times, the bigger FCs are very much about the numbers (I was an officer for one of those sorts of FCs, had ~200 members in it). Not all, but most. Smaller FCs (such as Fallen Arcadia on Odin), are very much like a family who will support you through all the things. One thing I will say is, while PUGs are very much business-like, don't be afraid to try and strike up some conversation. Most times, it'll go down well (some small talk like complementing someone's glamour can go a long way to making the run feel less business-like). You're on Sarg so I can't help, but hang in there. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SenorPatty

snip

---

I gave you a like because of your location information. xD

But yeah I would suggest joining an FC or getting a group of friends together for learning and clearing content. Not only is it typically a more supportive environment, but when working together as a group of friends/FC members those accomplishments create great bonds and understanding that helps tackle content in the future. I often set up groups for friends and FC members to teach new and old content. (If you were in my data center I would ask for you to come along) Once you have learned the content you are able to increase your DPS drastically something that is overlooked a bit in this whole thread. Which just means going with a group of people you know first is a great way to do content. Laughing and having fun learning the hard content is one of the best experiences I have in the game.

I think a big reason there has a "cold feel" is that people when learning/farming content think about themselves first, which is normal and nothing to be ashamed about. If you only have an hour to do something and someone is under performing they feel strained. (Such as: afking, not using aoes, not knowing mechanics etc) I personally don't mind if people are learning or not doing "good" DPS, if we have a whole lot of mobs I would just ask please use AOE's. (I have been yelled at for that when I say, "Hey can you please use AOE attacks on a bunch of mobs." I have also had people ask questions and learn). People want to get things done in the schedule they set for themselves and sometimes that doesn't line up with everyone else in the dungeon. Everything is based on perspective, if there is harassment report it. If there isn't keep doing you. xD Good luck with your learning parties I hope you have a great time making new friends. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

So strangely enough your post is attempting to silence those that have gone through such abuse, so you are sort of doing what you claim you dislike. So maybe my claim of your being disingenuous was a little on point.

---

No I am not. No where have I said to anyone that it is "silly" that they have posted their experience or opinion just because I don't agree with it nor have I told anyone they are undermining people just for posting their opinions and experiences.

I am also not labeling anyone "disingenuous" for just posting their experiences and opinions either which I guess you have clarified the definition you are using. You are accusing me of pretending? So in other words you are claiming I am lying in order to push my own opinion. Well, you're wrong. I have not lied about my experience so I am not pretending anything.

I mean instead of using fancy words that have multiple meanings why not instead just plainly say what you want to say? If you want to call me a liar then call me a liar. I mean I guess it adds to the list: silly, undermining, disingenuous/lying.....got any more? All because I shared what personally happened in my 4 years of playing this game which led me to the opinion I hold about the frequency of parser harassment?

All of these things seem like attempts to shame me into changing my opinion or to make me stop posting my opinion, which I already mentioned this in a previous post. To me that seems like you are trying to silence my opinion because you don't like it.

I mean honestly how does me saying "in my experience parser harassment doesn't seem to happen frequently" silence those who have gone through such abuse? I never said that the abuse never happens. THAT would be trying to silence them by pretending it never happens, but I have not once said such a thing. I have never claimed that it never happens; all I said, multiple times now, is that I doubt the "frequency" of it due to my own personal experiences. This does not silence anyone. It amazes me how ridiculous this has gotten. Ever since my first post that you responded to I have been talking about frequency so don't try to claim I was talking about something else to artificially flip the argument in your favour. I have clarified I have always been talking about frequency.

So you continue to label me all these things and you obviously don't like my opinion and my experience and you either want me to change my opinion or stop posting my opinion, it has to be one or the other. If it isn't one of those reasons then why do you insist on replying to me even though I told you you are arguing with a brick wall who won't listen to you and you have zero chance to change my mind on this? If I am wrong then tell me what is your true goal here? You say you are "fine" with my experience, but I honestly don't believe you. How can you be fine with it and in the same breath accuse me of "pretending"?

So what now? Got any new labels or accusations to throw at me? Keep them coming, it is highly entertaining.

PS. In my 4 years of playing this game as a very active player in all types of content, in statics, in PF pugs, in DF, I have not seen a single instance of a player being harassed with a parser. In my opinion this casts doubt on how frequently parser harassment occurs. This makes me believe that there isn't much else to be done to avoid said harassment since removing harassment 100% is a pipe dream. If harassment of any kind happens you use the tools available to you, you blacklist, you report to a GM, and you move on and not associate with those players. We should advocate people be nice to each other of course, but that doesn't mean everyone is going to listen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SenorPatty

This thread taught me when you're pugging, its all business first. Via a third party global parsing website of all things. I'd like to be parsed for sure. But I'd like to be parsed by the right people. Genuine people. People who won't sugarcoat but also won't shut you out from the start. That's pug business all right. I'd like to be parsed by people you know and want you to succeed at things, just as you want them too. Have a laugh at it too.

Pugs can't do that. And that's fine. But its a bit cold.

---

Based on my own pugging experiences, what you're describing here isn't an accurate description of pug raiding. I highly doubt it's a standard thing to check anyone's performance rating unless a person is joining extremely demanding content (my example from a while ago with OS4) or a group that specifically requires high performance. There are tons of casual progression groups available and for a big majority of even current raid content DPS simply doesn't matter much for the clear so no one cares. If you read the thread carefully, you notice people who are writing the horror stories aren't even basing them on their personal real experiences but something "they've heard in game from friends". I've been pugging current raids and extremes a lot and I have never seen a person get treated badly for their parse or FFlogs, and I've never seen anyone blindly excluded from a group. There are many other pug raiders who have said the same in this thread. I'm not saying PF is all butterflies and sunshine, and of course there are people with silly standards and bad behaviour out there, but from my experience those are more an exception than the norm. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

PS. In my 4 years of playing this game as a very active player in all types of content, in statics, in PF pugs, in DF, I have not seen a single instance of a player being harassed with a parser. In my opinion this casts doubt on how frequently parser harassment occurs. This makes me believe that there isn't much else to be done to avoid said harassment since removing harassment 100% is a pipe dream. If harassment of any kind happens you use the tools available to you, you blacklist, you report to a GM, and you move on and not associate with those players. We should advocate people be nice to each other of course, but that doesn't mean everyone is going to listen.

---

Exceedingly well said.

I haven't been in the game for 4 years, closer to two with a large break of about 8 months thrown in the middle, but I do have something of a unique perspective in comparison to a lot of people on the "parser/DPS harrassment doesn't happen much" camp because (comparatively speaking) I am new to any content beyond Expert dungeons. Omega normal was my first set of raids, Susie/Lakshmi/Shinryu were my first EX primals I did on content and I think as someone breaking into this setting for the first time you're more likely to bring out the worst in people due to your inexperience.

I can confidently say that despite my not-very-good non-dungeon healing experience the worst thing I've had happen was someone call me out on my lack of HoT usage in O1S in a Discord voice chat for a PF I joined. It wasn't done in a super friendly way but at the same time I can recognize the difference between someone being very cut-and-dry as opposed to the harrassment people love to screech about lately.

I think if you're going to call something harrassment you have to ask yourself a few basic questions before complaining.

• Was it respectfully delivered? Someone being cold is different from someone being rude.
• Is what they said going to help you improve? If so it seems kind if crazy to comolain about good advice.
• Is what they've brought up relavent to the current situation/does it effect them in a meaningful way? This could mean hitting enrage because you've slacked on DPS or letting a tank die in a dungeon because you've been too busy Holy spamming.

If you can answer any those questions with a yes, however begrudging that yes may be, you are not being harrassed. To claim that any unsolicited advice is harrassment is to live in a world where you're harrassed every day at work by your boss, at school by your teachers and by the weather channel when they tell you to bring an umbrella with you. Sometimes someone is in a position to help improve you/your experience and it's smart to sit back and listen even if you don't immediately love what's being said.

Tl;dr - The issue with the ongoing debate around harrassment feels (to me) more like an issue with what is categorized as harrassment than with the frequency with which real harrassment happens.

To draw a parallel with real life right now I see a lot of people talking about frequent instances of sexual harrassment irl. As someone who has worked in the service industry for the past 10 years (so since I could legally work) I can say instances of sexual harrassment for me have been incredibly few and far between.

When I read further into this apparent 'sexual harrassment epidemic' I see that the reason my opinion differs here is not because I'm experiencing these things less but rather because the things people arre categorizing as harassment are not things I think of in that light. Everything from whistling at a girl on the street to holding a door open for a woman to giving a compliment on someone's physical appearance is lumped into harassment.

Not to toot my own horn but pretty much every day I go out in public at least some of these things happen but since I'm not looking at them as some kind of grand conspiracy to insult me as a woman and rather just compliments or people being nice I'm not offended.

It's all about perspective people. If you stop looking for monsters maybe the shadows will seem less scary.

Edit: Wow that got ranty. Sorry, I had a long day o.o

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

never seen people complain about numbers in dungeons. Closest I’ve seen is after a tank pulls a large pack, dies because the mobs aren’t dying fast enough, and after we respawn, they say something like “I’ll just do smaller pulls; not enough damage going out”—and again, that’s something you don’t even need a parser to see. It’s easy to tell when DPS aren’t AOEing packs down, not only from how long they’re taking to die, but from the fact that their TP is basically full the entire time. So, again, not really something you need a parser to see.

---

Just yesterday, and not for the first time, I had a run where I said pretty much just exactly that and was threatened with a ban on suspicion of parsing, and repeatedly berated over the rest of the run by one of the DPS. My intent was simply to assure the relatively new healer, when he asked, that there was nothing he could have done better to have made the full size pull feasible for us; either at least a couple mobs die before we both run out of CDs, or we get crushed (35 seconds in and not one mob was dead, and one DPS still at full TP). It went so far as being harassed outside of the instance as well, being told repeatedly over whispers that I'm elitist and passive aggressive filth, all from the simple line "Don't worry, that's not on you; we just didn't have enough DPS to pull it off. We tested that, and you did good, but I'm going to do smaller pulls from here out."

It continually shocks me that people would hark so heavily on the ability for people to use player support tools like parsers in a toxic manner, yet cannot understand why parser's current "don't ask, don't tell" state already sanctions incredible toxicity.

It's gotten to the point that I scarcely communicate in dungeons anymore. If there's a Dragoon who won't use Heavy Thrust or won't reproc BotD between pulls, I say nothing, because no matter the specificity of the advice, I more frequently hear back that I must be using a parser and that they've just reported me, "see you later... or never." Unless the mood is light from the start, I either judge by the lowest common denominator and silently adjust accordingly or risk being threatened.

Not even sure what this thread is going about any more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

Snip . . .

---

You are not even answering the question or focusing the aspect that matters most. Frequency should not even be part of the equation, you still have not answered the question where do you draw the line that it becomes a problem and SE tries to do something about the toxic behavior like they did with PvP. You do not see how saying I doubt it happens as people make it out to be does not undermine those that come forward after facing such harassment? I mean at the very last I try to address what your points when I reply, you simply ignore them. The fact it happens means SE needs to try and do something, since clearly telling people to play nice is not cutting it.

Reality is bringing frequency into the equation does undermine the issue since it has to be a wide spread issue for people to look at it and try to solve the issue beyond. People just got to be nice, and report to the a GM and move on. That is clearly not working. It is not about flipping the argument, I bring it up it since I have been waiting for you this whole time to answer the basic question, how often does it have to become for it to be a problem?

That is why I brought in sexual harassment. Since the main issue when someone brings frequency into the equation of harassment, where do you draw line for it to be an issue. Depending the issue people have different quotas so to speak. For some once a month in too much, or others may upwards of 30 times a month. That is why I am focusing on frequency. Since in end we agree on the same points, people should be nicer, but is probably not going to happen. Still don't you see how telling someone that has gone through such abuse that it has not happened enough for it to be considered a serious enough issue to warrant the issue to be looked further into.

More inclined to think that if this was another form of harassment we would not be having this conversation. Do you really not see how telling something that has gone through the abuse, I am sorry I know it sucks, but has not happened enough yet for us to take a deeper look at the problem, so just report them and move on? Tell that to someone that has been sexually harassed. I know you going to say the cannot compare, but in my eyes all forms of harassment are important, from bullying to sexual harassment. They all matter.

That is why I am focus on the frequency aspect, I am just trying to show you how heartless the comment is when it comes to harassment. I know it is your experience, but it is silly to bring frequency since that means that such abuse has to hit a threshold before it will be taken seriously. That is fucked if that is how we view cases of harassment. Has not happened enough to warrant resources going into further examine why such cases of harassment happen and what we can do to somewhat alleviate the issue. I am sorry simply report and move on, or other people would say get good so people to not mock your performance. (Please understand I am not saying for you it has to hit a threshold for it to be taken seriously, but for many it does and for those people they will latch on to that notion and not let gone. They will say do not worry it rarely happens just report and move on. You prob will not deal with that often.) That sucks since for some as stated it does happen a lot, and they are offered no preventive protection or reactive. So do you see how that may hurt someone that goes through such abuse fairly frequent. Remember silencing can also be diminishing the magnitude of an event, and not necessarily completely denying it.

The only line of defense people have to such abuse is to get harassed report and black list said player. So the person has to be harassed first for the tools we have in place to take effect. Silencing can also be diminishing the magnitude of an event

That is not fucked at all.

Since end of the day what percentage of the player base would it have to happen to for it to become a big enough problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

You are not even answering the question or focusing the aspect that matters most. Frequency should not even be part of the equation, you still have not answered the question where do you draw the line

Reality is bringing frequency into the equation does undermine the issue since it has to be a wide spread issue for people to look at it and try to solve the issue beyond. People just got to be nice, and report to the a GM and move on. That is clearly not working.

---

I draw the line at never.

We're never going to have accurate data on parser / fflogs harassment numbers. And we can't have any action on hearsay from either side. We will never know what the current frequency is, and I have doubts even SE has accurate numbers.

Also pvp chat is just an example that Square actively interfering only creates more problems than it solves.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

You are not even answering the question or focusing the aspect that matters most. Frequency should not even be part of the equation, you still have not answered the question where do you draw the line that it becomes a problem and SE tries to do something about the toxic behavior like they did with PvP.

---

All SE can do is react on harassment reports and punish harassers.

All we as players can do is speak up against harassment, remove harassing players from groups and send those reports.

This is certainly not an issue Miste can resolve so I don't understand why you keep demanding that from her.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dualgunner

I draw the line at never.

We're never going to have accurate data on parser / fflogs harassment numbers. And we can't have any action on hearsay from either side. We will never know what the current frequency is, and I have doubts even SE has accurate numbers.

Also pvp chat is just an example that Square actively interfering only creates more problems than it solves.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taika

All SE can do is react on harassment reports and punish harassers.

All we as players can do is speak up against harassment, remove harassing players from groups and send those reports.

This is certainly not an issue Miste can resolve so I don't understand why you keep demanding that from her.

---

Both of you are right, in case of PvP I do not like the changes, though I do see less topics being made about the toxic minatory in PvP. It still happens and it sucks we can no longer use chat, but it has been curbed, more likely it it was just a half measure to protect the willfully ignorant. Though I honestly do not have any data, but at the very least we have fewer threads regarding it.

Also not much anyone can do both of you are 100% just so happens when someone brings frequency into the equation when it comes to harassment, since really it should not play any part of the equation, no one is asking SE to make the impossible possible, but at the very least people do have to see how mentioning how infrequent it happens does sting a little to those that face said issues? Since for some it happens frequently, and that sucks. That is why it should not be part of the equation, since then it becomes about perspective.

I can realistic say no one is expecting a permanent fix, and I know the idea of requesting fflogs to be opt-in instead of out will not change much of anything, I do not have the intelligence required to figure out a viable solution that is more preventive in the sense that offers some form of protection that helps prevent the player from getting harnessed. Instead of a reactive one, since reactive measures only protect the player from future encounters with the person has already harassed them, offers no protection from future encounters from new people. Though those that have the intelligence to maybe come up with a stop gap will not look at the situation if we as a community try to equate how often a issue happens with relevance. That is why I feel trying to bring it into the equation is messed up, since for some it does happen frequently and the only protection SE has provided is report and ignore those that do it. Thing is for most of the people that this happens to it does not happen in bleeding edge content, just basic causal level content. Though at the very least if a person simply could not look up someones logs on FFlogs and they had to be given them at could act as a stop gap, and they just avoid that group when they request logs. As a last resort they could make it personal, and maybe FFlogs could add an option to sync the logs as a group if your static desires it.

I do not know just spit balling ideas, though if more people are brought to be aware of the issue maybe those that can find a decent solution will look into the issue, but until we stop trying to downplay how often it happens that will never be the case. That is why I am harping on the whole frequency aspect, overall I agree with her, just that tossing in frequency into the equation it in a way does downplay the issue, which in a way does silence those that may feel as if they do not have a voice. That is why frequency, should be part of it, and that is why I personal feel the system that protects these players should not be reactive.

I know there is no perfect system, I do not think anyone is asking for a perfect system just more options that help prevent it from happening even if it is only a little, and within reason. I do not think SE should remove chat, make enemies die in one hit, make everything a one button rotation or whatever far out example someone can come up with. We will never be done with harassment, but at the least we can try to offer some form of protection that does not request in them having to go through such abuse for it to be of use.

Deep down we probably all want the same thing, just sadly when it comes to issues of harassment how often it happens is one of the major factors taken into account before it is even looked at. That is why I say downplaying the whole thing does not serve to help anyone.

As I have said before silencing can also be diminishing the magnitude of an event, and not necessarily completely denying it. Which is what Miste and others are doing when they downplay the frequency. Which is not wrong since I understand for many it is a normalizing deviance, but still it sucks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NephthysVasudan

Well this thread certainly made me sit back and stare/research. Oddly enough FFlogs seems to be broken on my char (And I'm content with that :P ) - My 2 cents is this.
Tanks are supposed to tank. Period.
Healers are supposed to heal. Period.
DPS - need I say more?

If the tanks and healers can dps - great...bonus.

---

I’m just going to copy-paste something another poster said that says this far more eloquently than I can:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnnyDevo

My take on it was always this:

A tank can easily hold aggro by pushing just 3 buttons over and over.
A healer can easily keep people alive by pushing just 3 buttons over and over.

... Yet when the DPS pushes only 3 buttons over and over, they're being lazy.

This game, like it or not, is designed for people to push the damage. If you, as a tank or a healer, are doing the bare minimum and not using the rest of your effort to push the damage, I see you as just as bad as the black mage who only uses blizzard 2. You have abilities. You have tools. Not using them is basically saying you don't care about bringing as much to the table as you can.

---

Why is it okay for two roles to press, at most, 3-4 buttons, but not okay for another? It’s not. That’s the very definition of a double standard.

Quote:

---

So long as you are doing your job at its basic form - and the party is getting the job done...you should NEVER be kicked for that.

---

I get really tired of this argument. Again, how is it acceptable for one role to do absolutely nothing for over half of the dungeon, but for another be expected to do double or triple that? How is it acceptable for healers to “just heal”, but for DPS to press “more than 1-2-3 or else they are lazy”? Double standards.

I also dislike the “the party is getting the job done”/“it’s okay, no one died and you got the duty done” argument. Yeah, sure, no one died during an hour long Skalla run where the tank did baby pulls, the healer didn’t contribute to anything other than an occasional heal, and the DPS didn’t bother to do anything outside of single-targeting 1-2-3 for any group of 3+ mobs...but that doesn’t mean that an hour long Skalla run is okay.

Quote:

---

honestly I'm against this parser crap - It leads to opinionated elitist morons who judgmentally condemn random players. Yes - I don't deny that it can help greatly for players who need the help - but its akin to being utterly discriminatory. I have a mentor who uses one - and he's ALWAYS constructive. I'd say he's the exception to the rule. Unless you attack him - then he's got ammo lol. (very experienced and knows his stuff)

---

I just want to point out the blatant hypocrisy in this statement. You say parsers are the things that lead to “opinionated elitist morons” judging “random players”, but you, right here in this quote, are judging random players and making sweeping generalizations based off of your perception of parsers. It really doesn’t help that you refer to ONE PERSON as the EXCEPTION to your “rule”. That doesn’t really make you any better than the “opinionated elitist morons.”

Quote:

---

Not sure if what I said made sense....and honestly people who think otherwise can jump off a virtual cliff cause I play for fun and enjoyment...not for the speedrun addicts. (Pull more! (healer says this and promptly dies afterwards....yep..been there done that))

---

So does everyone else. For some, it is NOT fun carrying people that refuse to do the bare minimum. Why should they have to put up with it? Why should their gaming experience have to be ruined in favor of catering to the lazier types of players?

EDIT/ADDITION:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Just yesterday, and not for the first time, I had a run where I said pretty much just exactly that and was threatened with a ban on suspicion of parsing, and repeatedly berated over the rest of the run by one of the DPS. My intent was simply to assure the relatively new healer, when he asked, that there was nothing he could have done better to have made the full size pull feasible for us; either at least a couple mobs die before we both run out of CDs, or we get crushed (35 seconds in and not one mob was dead, and one DPS still at full TP). It went so far as being harassed outside of the instance as well, being told repeatedly over whispers that I'm elitist and passive aggressive filth, all from the simple line "Don't worry, that's not on you; we just didn't have enough DPS to pull it off. We tested that, and you did good, but I'm going to do smaller pulls from here out."

It continually shocks me that people would hark so heavily on the ability for people to use player support tools like parsers in a toxic manner, yet cannot understand why parser's current "don't ask, don't tell" state already sanctions incredible toxicity.

It's gotten to the point that I scarcely communicate in dungeons anymore. If there's a Dragoon who won't use Heavy Thrust or won't reproc BotD between pulls, I say nothing, because no matter the specificity of the advice, I more frequently hear back that I must be using a parser and that they've just reported me, "see you later... or never." Unless the mood is light from the start, I either judge by the lowest common denominator and silently adjust accordingly or risk being threatened.

---

Quite honestly, I remain silent most of the time as well, because of the very thing you said in your last paragraph. Though I can easily tell, especially when it’s a job I main like BRD or AST or RDM, when a player is doing something wrong, I have stopped giving out advice because I’m either told to “shut the **** up”, “**** off”, “you don’t pay my sub”, or I have concerns about being reported over suspected parsing, even though the problems I see are ones that do not require a parser to see. It really should not be that way.

I can clearly see, for example, when DPS aren’t AOEing—the full TP says more than enough, and the rate at which a pack of 10+ dying is a very clear indicator of that. You don’t need a parser to see it, yet people are so quick to jump the gun: “You must be parsing! Reported! Elitist!”

It’s ironically and extremely sad/hilarious the amount of toxicity that is directed towards parser users, or even people that aren’t parsing at all but that are merely suspected of parsing, yet parser users are constantly dictated as the “toxic” or “elitist” players that cause “problems for the community”.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StarRosie

Actively? No. Casually with FC and friends? Yeah. But I do sometimes wander into PUGs or PFs to fill a spot for a friend and I never know if there is a parser running in the group or not. I've known about parsers for a good chunk of my time on FFXIV and honestly flip flop on my thoughts about them. But whether I do the content where they 'matter most' or not doesn't really negate the point at hand

---

The picture I was trying to paint is the player who only does his daily roulettes and trial roulette. They maybe do some hunts and some triple triad. This type of player I can say with near 100% confidence doesn't know or care what type of shit shows on FFLogs. They are blissfully ignorant. Therefore any singular player who is in this category (which the community frequently mentions is the majority, so let's assume that for a second) really doesn't have a dog in the fight. They aren't affected by it. Good players aren't affected either. So that leaves the middle players. Likely a sizable element of the community, but helps give context to just how infrequent this really is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StarRosie

I can't outright say it is anything illegal, not without doing a ton of research that would involve some...risky searches. (Cause googling "Is it illegal to X?" never seems suspicious...) But overall, yeah I think if they did switch over to an opt in model, i.e, only people who sign up with FFlogs and use the parser are the ones whose data is recorded and posted to a third party site for a bunch of other people to browse and scrutinize are the only ones whose data is recorded. Yeah, I think that would be a much better option. One that would most likely settle some people's grievances with this stuff. It would settle the harassment argument to a hefty degree, since only people who WANT to be parsed are being parsed and those who don't are left alone. As it stands now though? The whole thing is kinda...squicky to me.

---

It's not illegal at all.

Opt in model would defeat the entire purpose of it and the fact that you aren't aware of that further contributes to my point above about being blissfully ignorant. That just leaves the notion that you feel 'slighted' over something that doesn't even affect you, which hopefully sounds as ridiculous to you as it does to me.

Tell me exactly with specific examples how your data being public on FFLogs is negatively impacting your play experience. You personally. Not your friend's mother/brother/sister cousin, or some guys forum post. You personally.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

This why people are asking for SE to reach out to request FFlogs to be opt in instead of out. This choice has no impact the usefulness of the tool, and if those running FFlogs refuse then SE can look into further options such as making the data gathered only be personal as a last resort. Having that data is not going to make the player want to improve, if the player is in the bottom 20% they prob do not wish to improve and to be frank that data is useless to any outside of those wishing to mock or ridicule a player. I am not saying you personally though I just do not get why people do not want SE to at the very request that FFlogs makes their site opt in instead of out.

I mean and if they are in the bottom 20% and wish to improve their play awesome, they can use the data and work on openers, rotations etc . . .

---

Opt in would destroy the tool. That's why it nor Warcraft logs are that way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Misurugi

You were hit by a tank buster when not in tank stance. Or, Tank grabs lots of mobs and dies because as a healer I have to wait until tank has command of aggro before I do anything or... OOPS. I died by trying to keep the tank alive... STUPID HEALER WHY DIDN'T YOU WAIT FOR ME TO GET AGGRO. You had less then 20% health left. I didn't have a choice but to bene you. I been on every side of this argument. Job comes first. Everything else secondary. If the healer is having a hard time keeping you, THE TANK, alive while you decide to stroke your micro sized E-pen. Put tank stance on. Healers. Find a compromise. If their's a lul in damage being delt do a bit of dps. rather have mp incase the shit hits the fan. Dps... Go nuts. Do what you do best. Don't make it your priority. Make a point. Ok you have less then... 40% mp left. Ok time to start thinking about conservation tactics via letting your dps go and think about healing. Shut the fuck up you don't know how to play healer... Dude... I play every class. You want to give constructive criticism after you see me at work... Go for it. My job comes first. If I'm the tank. I'll tank. I'll stance dance during lul points after a tank buster and I know I have time to switch back to tank stance for the next one. As a healer.... I'll do both healing and dps tell my mp gets to about 50%.. Then.. I drop my dps for healing until my mp gets back to about 80% then I'll dps again. And dps.. Do what you do best. Flame em if you want that's just how I play. And so far. No one has bothered to contradict my style. If it works for you. Go for it. I just wish this whole toxicity of put your balls to the walls for dps would stop.

---

I can literally solo every single boss in current end game dungeons as a tank. I don't need tank stance to survive tank busters that barely hit me for ANYTHING, even in Savage/EX.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Opt in would destroy the tool. That's why it nor Warcraft logs are that way.

---

Not really you would still have the ability to use it with like minded players. So how does it destroy that. Adds an extra hoop, but far from destroys the tool. While the data has no impact on me, I love FFLogs. Still does not change that for some it does have a negative impact and that the tools SE has put in place does not protect players from the abuse of said data only provides them the tools to further prevent such abuse from the same player.

An opt-in would make it so you would not have data on the tank that barely pulls 2k dps. For your static or for groups that request them you show them your logs world keeps moving. All the opt-in feature does is that no one will be able to pull the logs on random joe.

The people that kick you for not tanking in sword oath are the same people that then log onto the forums to bitch about the long queue times caused by a lack of people wanting to tank.

What's funny is I got skalla again on expert and I was warrior. I pulled first set without a healer because he dced, and I never died. I pulled second and third set which are larget set of adds, I didn't die. I solo'ed the boss too actually until a new healer came back. And there is healing required every 3 seconds? LOL. Please give me a break
https://i.imgur.com/yVwX4oA.png Just another proof people who plays healers and say they have to heal every 3 second is a big liar.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

-snip-

---

Ya know...I had a large post plotted out in my head, filled with rebuttals and all ready to verbally duke it out over this point and while typing it out and thinking on what responses I would get. I started getting all stressed out and wound up. I then asked myself "What's the point?" and I couldn't answer. Wound myself up for something that generally doesn't effect me much and such, over a point that I doubt I could change minds so thoroughly made up about. So...yeah, heck it. I concede, you're right, I'm wrong. Just want to get rid of this stressed feeling. I mean, I still believe in the points I made but...I just don't wanna argue it anymore when the stress from the argument, combined with work stress, starts causing me actual, physical pain in my shoulders and neck. So, yeah. Again, I concede.

I hope you have a nice day and I hope you have fun with the game. Take care.

StarRosie over and out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

You are not even answering the question or focusing the aspect that matters most. Frequency should not even be part of the equation, you still have not answered the question where do you draw the line that it becomes a problem.

---

Fine you want an answer then I'll answer you. I already told you why I was ignoring your questions, multiple times, but whatever.

I always think harassment is a problem, so that is why I cannot answer you as to "where to draw the line"; harassment should just never happen, but I am being realistic that we cannot ever fully remove harassment from the internet and therefore MMOs as well. Due to my experiences I have formed an opinion that we already have it quite good and I don't know how we could make it better than now so I have nothing to add to debate with you about this.

You continually insult me just because I have an experience and an opinion you don't like so why do you expect me to actually debate with you? That is why I ignore your questions and most of what you reply to me. That should be obvious by now as I have explained this multiple times now in different words.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

Still don't you see how telling someone that has gone through such abuse that it has not happened enough for it to be considered a serious enough issue to warrant the issue to be looked further into.

---

You just don't get it. No where did I say that people cannot ask for the issue to be further looked into. I just have my own personal opinion due to my experiences that we have already have the best we can hope for since it is pipe dream to get rid of harassment on a MMO.

That doesn't stop you from asking for what you want. I've said this before as well. Go for it. Ask for it to be looked into further. I am not stopping you and if anyone came up with a breaking news idea that would solve a lot of human interaction harassment then I would be all ears.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

That is why I am focus on the frequency aspect, I am just trying to show you how heartless the comment is when it comes to harassment. I know it is your experience, but it is silly to bring frequency since that means that such abuse has to hit a threshold before it will be taken seriously. Has not happened enough to warrant resources going into further examine why such cases of harassment happen and what we can do to somewhat alleviate the issue.

---

Instead of coming up with ideas you sit there and insult me because of my experiences and personal opinions and continually ignore the fact I told you I won't listen to anything you say. If you had been less hostile then I would have happily had a nice debate with you, but you constantly throw negative labels and accusations at me, what were you expecting at this point? For me to happily discuss with you? lol

Now the list is: defensive, hostile, silly, undermining, disingenious/lying/pretending, and now heartless.

Gee, you really know a lot about me over text on a forum, your assessment must be accurate even though you have never met me. /sarcasm

But again do continue, I enjoy wondering what you'll label me or accuse me of next. Highly entertaining.

I already do the best I can in-game to defend people if they get harassed in an open chat where I see it and I will also report people who harass. I cannot solve your issue so stop using me as a soapbox to stand on. You can easily post all your opinions and ideas without replying to me and continuing to insult me over and over.

Just because I have my own experiences which give me an opinion about the frequency of parser harassment specifically does not mean that I do not openly denounce harassment of all kinds, because I do denounce all kinds of harassment and I always have. Being realistic though I realize there is only so much that can be done to stop it, even still I am not automatically against ideas that may help alleviate more of it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

The only line of defense people have to such abuse is to get harassed report and black list said player. So the person has to be harassed first for the tools we have in place to take effect

---

So what other defensive mechanisms can we think of to stop harassment dead before it starts? As an example, you insulted me multiple times thus far and while I don't consider it harassment...what could we have done to preemptively stop those insults from happening before you did it? Got a solution?


PS. In my 4 years of playing this game as a very active player in all types of content, in statics, in PF pugs, in DF, I have not seen a single instance of a player being harassed with a parser. In my opinion this casts doubt on how frequently parser harassment occurs. This makes me believe that there isn't much else to be done to avoid said harassment since removing harassment 100% is a pipe dream. If harassment of any kind happens you use the tools available to you, you blacklist, you report to a GM, and you move on and not associate with those players. We should advocate people be nice to each other of course, but that doesn't mean everyone is going to listen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taika

This is certainly not an issue Miste can resolve so I don't understand why you keep demanding that from her.

---

Thank you for helping me out by explaining this, it is too bad they still seem to think that just because I doubt the frequency due to my own experiences I am a terrible person and I should not post those experiences or opinions because they happen to be against their opinions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Opt in model would defeat the entire purpose of it and the fact that you aren't aware of that further contributes to my point above about being blissfully ignorant. That just leaves the notion that you feel 'slighted' over something that doesn't even affect you, which hopefully sounds as ridiculous to you as it does to me.

---

While I ultimately don't see a need for opt-in, as one can simply say "this parse is one that's actually representative of what all I can do" and just link that if it somehow came down to it, there's no reason, especially in an official tool, that an opt-in model would break the system. You still publish your own battle log, encounter time, and thereby raid dps, which is likely all that matters to you, but if anyone else wishes to also publish their information, they can choose to do so, or perhaps even contextually automate that decision (opt-in to all parses with these players, and out of any others). Unless you wish to argue that including parse publications that the player is not aware of makes his metrics more authentic or relevantly informative, neither would the purpose be in any way lost by making the publication optional.

:: Just in principle, I hugely dislike the idea of "opt out". It means inconveniencing yourself each and every time, especially if the choice cannot be automated, and still possibly losing the choice by lack of notice or notification. If it's benign enough to be "opt out", it really needn't be optional at all. But if reasonably perceivable, in whomever's eyes, to be in whatever way threatening enough to need to be optional, then it should be opt in, not out. Just my personal preference in these regards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

Snip. . .

---

Was never my intent to insult you by calling you disingenuous. Also you still missing the point, the whole point I have been trying to make is silencing can also be diminishing the magnitude of an event, and not necessarily completely denying it. Now you can say you are not, though by downplaying it with your anecdotal experiences, you sort of are. Also if you felt I insulted you by calling you disingenuous I am sorry, and I do not think you are a bad person. As I have said before at the core we in agreement. I know nothing can be done, and I can see you clearly would like something to happen if it were possible. All I am trying to address is that anecdotal such as yours are what many people use to keep the issue from reaching the boiling point of change to happen. Look at hackers in other games, most players hardly ever run into a hacker while playing, so you run into those players that are dismissive of the claims because from their experience they never saw a hacker so clearly it is a non issue.

So do you see how anecdotal experience can hinder progress, it clearly is not your intent. I would love to come up with ideas, but as I said before I am not smart enough to come up with viable solution, though if this issue does gain enough ground maybe those that have the intelligent required to come up with a viable idea will work on it. Also remember you may not be outright saying it, just remember this silencing can also be diminishing the magnitude of an event, and not necessarily completely denying it. All I am trying to say is say if someone comes across a post regarding parser abuse, and then notices how some people make the claim I have never really seen it, though it does suck when it happens. If it does happen to that person a lot they might feel as if it is their fault, since clearly people are stating that they do not see it happen all that much. For those type of players not sure if it does feel alienating, but if I was in their shoes I would feel alienated. Once again not saying this was your intent or that you are a bad person, just that it is how some could persevere it.

Though you are right this is going nowhere, Once again I am sorry that you feel as if I think you are bad person, or felt as if I insulted you. Was not my intent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The thing about anecdotes is that they cannot be used as any sort of quantifiable or quantitative evidence; they are already skewed in the fact that they are a personal experience, so emotions are going to get in the way as opposed to if the data presented by either side were cold, hard numbers. They cannot be used as a reliable source of data for either side. So, while they cannot be used as an adequate reason to slow/deny change, they also cannot be used as an adequate reason to prompt swift/sudden change. Because they’re anecdotes. There’s a reason why they are never used in serious research and/or debates.

---

You are right anecdotes should not have an influence and in a perfect world they do not. Sadly people still use them a base points to help support their claim. Which is why I say it does hinder progress. I mean it would be great if no one used anecdotal evidence, but we all know that is not going to happen. This discuses should be based around does parser abuse happen yes or no. If it does something should be done about it, if not we can ignore it. No one should be using their years experience of never seeing it as a means to formulate an opinion on the subject. Just as I have been trying to avoid using the cases were I have ran into parser abuse since that is moot, the fact of the matter is if we can agree it does happen, and if it does happen shouldn't something be done about it. Or do we have wait till it reaches a boiling point before we enact change. So thanks you were able to articulate what I have been trying to say. Appreciate it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Miste

I mean you do realize you are doing the same exact thing right? You mentioned hearing from your friends their personal experiences so you are using those as a basis to form your opinion that more needs to be done right? So why can you do it but I can't?

---

After that dropped it, I have done my best to avoid using my own encounters with parser abuse and simply focused on the act of harassment in itself, does it happen yes or no. Most would agree it does happen. Why do you think I was trying to move past how often the issue happens. since that should be a factor only factor should be if it does happen, and if it does happen something should be done, what I do not know. Throughout this whole thing my bases has always been that it does happen and as such shouldn't we do something about it. Since remember you did mention that the amount it does happen is negligible. That is when this turned into a cluster fuck, since we do not have the data to determine if the effect is negligible or not. You are using your personal experience formulate that conclusion. Which I do it do, but I did do my best to leave personal experience out of this and try to tackle it from the perspective of does it happen, not how often happens. Since to get the frequency we would have to gather that data from our own events. I do agree at times I do fail at it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

I'll stop you here because this is an inherently flawed perception and contributes to the "safe space" mentality I mentioned earlier. Say harassment through parse abuse happens 1 out of every 1,000 encounters. You do not take a nuclear approach and treat it as though harassment is wide-spread. Your solutions essentially demand we snuff out even the slightest possibility even in a literal 0.1% example. That leads to the oversensitive mess we're seeing everywhere else, and why you perceive Miste's stance "heartless." She can't win under your scenario because you've created only a single "solution." So... how do we address harassment? You report the person for their behavior, blacklist if you feel it necessary and move on with your life. Call me callous all you fancy but the world isn't sunshine and rainbows. You are going to meet shitty people. Better to learn how to funnel out their nonsense than have us try and shield everyone from everything.

---

How is offering some base line protection that is not 100% reactive a nuclear approach? The only protection people have at the moment only comes in effect after the deed has been done. So they have already been negatively effected. While I am not sure what they can do, having some line of defense that at the very least offers minimal protection from it happening all together does not seem like a nuclear approach.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paladinleeds

The only way to do that would be to mark people as "harassers" and have them banned from entering duty. But, for people who want the story, that means we can't progress because of multiplayer duty if we get marked that way. May as well just ban us from the game (which they already do ban people for harassment by the way). And even then, that's reactive because the only fair way to do it would be to mark someone who has a history of it that way, so people have already been affected. Without a history to go off, you'd just have to assume everyone is a harasser, and therefore you'd have to take out the chat (they did that in PvP btw). But then how do you handle communication in a duty? Instead of getting harassed in-duty, the harassers will just make an alt on the server (unless it's a locked server like Balmung), and use that to harass them over it. It wouldn't stop harassment, just shift where it happens.

---

I do agree we will never get rid of said behavior all together, and certain elements of the game should not be touched such as DF. Though we can limit the more personal encounters, that are more localized on the server. As someone pointed out opt-in might not work, but if SE and FFLogs could come up with a way to make so your personal data cannot be shown so a player does not have to run the risk of requesting to join a group and they look up their logs only be told GTFO you fucking suck, and issue akin to what the op went through at one point. At the very least people should have some protection from such treatment on the server they are on. Now if a player willingly provides logs and said groups finds them sub-par and berates them then go forth a blacklist / report. Though I do not see any reason why someone who has no clue what FFLogs are should be told when trying to join a group you only did 2k dps in your last run? kill yourself xd. It is an overexertion, just meant to serve as an example. It is not a lot of protection, but is it something and in the end that is all most people are asking for. I have said before I do not want blanket bans or removal of the tool I simply would like some protection in the areas they can offer it without greatly effecting people. If that is considered extreme so be, guess I am extreme.

What I am trying to say is some protection is better then none, and in some cases being asked to provide logs may likely provide enough of a warning telling them not to join said group and look for another. This will not fix DF, and I do not know how to fix that, but it is something.

Though really not my intent to insult anyone, I am a little strange since I do not view a forum as a person more so an idea, so when say callous or disingenuous not referring to you as a person. Pretty sure you can tell language let alone English is not strong suit, though I am trying. So yeah once when I refer to a post made I try my best to avoid using words like you or I. I do fail horribly at it times, so sorry not intent to insult anyone as a person. I articulate it poorly at times.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

I can literally solo every single boss in current end game dungeons as a tank. I don't need tank stance to survive tank busters that barely hit me for ANYTHING, even in Savage/EX.

---

While things definitely do not hit that hard in this game, tankbusters do still need at least cooldowns to survive. Tank stance, no. Cooldowns, yes. I fondly recall one of the tanks in my static forgetting to CD for Exfaust’s Thunder III in V4S, dying, and then Exfaust turning around to finish the job on the poor unsuspecting melee. Always amusing when that happens, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

Was never my intent to insult you by calling you disingenuous. Also you still missing the point, the whole point I have been trying to make is silencing can also be diminishing the magnitude of an event, and not necessarily completely denying it. Now you can say you are not, though by downplaying it with your anecdotal experiences, you sort of are. . . .All I am trying to address is that anecdotal such as yours are what many people use to keep the issue from reaching the boiling point of change to happen.. . . .So do you see how anecdotal experience can hinder progress, it clearly is not your intent.

---

The thing about anecdotes is that they cannot be used as any sort of quantifiable or quantitative evidence; they are already skewed in the fact that they are a personal experience, so emotions are going to get in the way as opposed to if the data presented by either side were cold, hard numbers. They cannot be used as a reliable source of data for either side. So, while they cannot be used as an adequate reason to slow/deny change, they also cannot be used as an adequate reason to prompt swift/sudden change. Because they’re anecdotes. There’s a reason why they are never used in serious research and/or debates.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

So, while they cannot be used as an adequate reason to slow/deny change, they also cannot be used as an adequate reason to prompt swift/sudden change. Because they’re anecdotes. There’s a reason why they are never used in serious research and/or debates.

---

Hyo <3

Thanks for explaining that as well. I was going to mention the problem with that as well, anyway you explained it much better than I could have ^^

My opinions and experiences do not do anything to this topic since they are only anecdotes. SE isn't going to ignore problems just because of my singular personal opinion. So no, I am not hindering progress just by posting my own personal experience or opinion -_-

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

No one should be using their years experience of never seeing it as a means to formulate an opinion on the subject.

---

I can have my own opinions on anything I want. Sorry, but you are going to have to deal with that.

I mean you do realize you are doing the same exact thing right? You mentioned hearing from your friends their personal experiences so you are using those as a basis to form your opinion that more needs to be done right? All of your information in this topic is anecdote as well. So why can you do it but I can't?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

only factor should be if it does happen, and if it does happen something should be done

---

I'll stop you here because this is an inherently flawed perception and contributes to the "safe space" mentality I mentioned earlier. Say harassment through parse abuse happens 1 out of every 1,000 encounters. You do not take a nuclear approach and treat it as though harassment is wide-spread. Your solutions essentially demand we snuff out the slightest possibility even in a literal 0.1% example. That leads to the oversensitive mess we're seeing everywhere else, and why you perceive Miste's stance "heartless." She can't win under your scenario because you've created only a single "solution." So... how do we address harassment? You report the person for their behavior, blacklist if you feel it necessary and move on with your life. Call me callous all you fancy but the world isn't sunshine and rainbows. You are going to meet shitty people. Better to learn how to funnel out their nonsense than have us try and shield everyone from everything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Say harassment through parse abuse happens 1 out of every 1,000 encounters. You do not take a nuclear approach and treat it as though harassment is wide-spread.

---

Yep. I'm going to add that while harassment does suck, taking the thermonuclear option doesn't work out. For example with my stream, I do take the thermonuclear option (and very well known for it on the site I stream at). Viewers are forever walking on eggshells because even the most minor sleight and I will permantly ban them. For even the most minor things like asking how to tip my stream. I am callous and heartless about it. Viewers therefore are scared to interact. Chances are, if you start taking the thermonuclear option, it will put even genuine non-harassing players off because "What if I accidentally make someone feel like they're being harassed?" (even though they aren't harassing). It creates a very slippery slope and one I'm sure SqEx are wont to avoid. I can get away with it on my stream because I'm not trying to rack up lots of viewers, I literally stream just for entertainment value. SqEx on the other hand are a profit-driven business. They can't afford this slippery slope.

Also, Awha can call me callous, heartless, etc, all he wants. Why? Because I already know I am all the things he's called Miste. He'd only be telling me stuff I already know. I'm used to being insulted IRL, so it'll be like water off a duck's back to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

How is offering some base line protection that is not 100% reactive a nuclear approach? The only protection people have at the moment only comes in effect after the deed has been done. So they have already been negatively effected. While I am not sure what they can do, having some line of defense that at the very least offers minimal protection from it happening all together does not seem like a nuclear approach.

---

The only way to do that would be to mark people as "harassers" and have them banned from entering duty. But, for people who want the story, that means we can't progress because of multiplayer duty if we get marked that way. May as well just ban us from the game (which they already do ban people for harassment by the way). And even then, that's reactive because the only fair way to do it would be to mark someone who has a history of it that way, so people have already been affected. Without a history to go off, you'd just have to assume everyone is a harasser, and therefore you'd have to take out the chat (they did that in PvP btw). But then how do you handle communication in a duty? Instead of getting harassed in-duty, the harassers will just make an alt on the server (unless it's a locked server like Balmung), and use that to harass them over it. It wouldn't stop harassment, just shift where it happens.

Quick question about FFLogs functionality...


If someone has set their profile to not show, eg opt out...
What happens when another player uploads a parse that contains that player?


Do they just show up as an anonymous person on the log?
Is the log even visible?
Does the site still track the anonymous player in the global meta data?


I could see issues with data validity if it doesn't take anonymous player data into account.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

Quick question about FFLogs functionality...


If someone has set their profile to not show, eg opt out...
What happens when another player uploads a parse that contains that player?


Do they just show up as an anonymous person on the log?
Is the log even visible?
Does the site still track the anonymous player in the global meta data?


I could see issues with data validity if it doesn't take anonymous player data into account.

---

Anonymous players are anonym and they will be displaayed as anonym in the logs unless the person himself looks at the log, of course he isn't anonym for himself.
They are tracked equally to all other tracked players, just the link to their real character name is hidden.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TaranTatsuuchi

Do they just show up as an anonymous person on the log?
Is the log even visible?
Does the site still track the anonymous player in the global meta data?

---

If you type in their character name, you'll be given this message: "At the request of this character's owner, all parses involving this character have been hidden."

Their name will still appear on any individual log, provided you have the link, but you won't be able to look up their profile directly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

How is offering some base line protection that is not 100% reactive a nuclear approach? The only protection people have at the moment only comes in effect after the deed has been done. So they have already been negatively effected. While I am not sure what they can do, having some line of defense that at the very least offers minimal protection from it happening all together does not seem like a nuclear approach.

---

Because offense is reactionary. What you deem harassment or offense another may argue otherwise. Your approach takes away all individual input or objectivity and essentially says, "I've decided this needs to be fixed because it offended someone, somewhere." It's coddling. Call me callous, but we're all adults here. I think we should be capable of shrugging some mean comments from a random jerk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

Not really you would still have the ability to use it with like minded players. So how does it destroy that. Adds an extra hoop, but far from destroys the tool. While the data has no impact on me, I love FFLogs. Still does not change that for some it does have a negative impact and that the tools SE has put in place does not protect players from the abuse of said data only provides them the tools to further prevent such abuse from the same player.


An opt-in would make it so you would not have data on the tank that barely pulls 2k dps. For your static or for groups that request them you show them your logs world keeps moving. All the opt-in feature does is that no one will be able to pull the logs on random joe.

---

I said this earlier, who is negatively impacted? If you never set foot in any form of challenging content you will never (.000006% chance) be harassed. That's already the largest subsection of the playerbase by the community's own statement.

If you do participate in said content, but want to hide stuff, it's because you know you want a carry and don't deserve it.

If you do participate in said content and are decent you don't care because your numbers speak for yourself.

There's LITERALLY only one subset of player that is affected by this and frankly they're just upset that the gravy train ended. No more getting carried through EX's or Savage when they can barely press buttons.

The tools value is as high as it is because of how open and easy it is to view the data. As soon as you start forcing people to opt in, participation can drop, and now selection of data for people to compare against drops and you end up doing a lot of damage to the tools usefulness. If I'm a 40th percentile player and want to get better I can't just look up the rank 1 log and get good. It doesn't work that way. I need to peruse the middle section of say 80th percentile logs to find a good player with a similar comp and kill time. If you start removing all these people from searches you run into issues for anyone looking to get better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by StarRosie

Ya know...I had a large post plotted out in my head, filled with rebuttals and all ready to verbally duke it out over this point and while typing it out and thinking on what responses I would get. I started getting all stressed out and wound up. I then asked myself "What's the point?" and I couldn't answer. Wound myself up for something that generally doesn't effect me much and such, over a point that I doubt I could change minds so thoroughly made up about. So...yeah, heck it. I concede, you're right, I'm wrong. Just want to get rid of this stressed feeling. I mean, I still believe in the points I made but...I just don't wanna argue it anymore when the stress from the argument, combined with work stress, starts causing me actual, physical pain in my shoulders and neck. So, yeah. Again, I concede.

I hope you have a nice day and I hope you have fun with the game. Take care.

StarRosie over and out.

---

Going forward my advice to you would be to make sure when debating/discussing topics don't get emotionally invested or mad. Not only does it completely ruin most people's flow of logic, but it prevents you from ever being open to changing your mind. Try to focus on specific examples and quantifiable data so it's logic driven instead. These two things can really mess up a healthy discussion.

Hopefully your work situation eases up. We may be on opposite sides of the discussion, but we are not enemies. Best of luck and happy thanksgiving!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

While I ultimately don't see a need for opt-in, as one can simply say "this parse is one that's actually representative of what all I can do" and just link that if it somehow came down to it, there's no reason, especially in an official tool, that an opt-in model would break the system. You still publish your own battle log, encounter time, and thereby raid dps, which is likely all that matters to you, but if anyone else wishes to also publish their information, they can choose to do so, or perhaps even contextually automate that decision (opt-in to all parses with these players, and out of any others). Unless you wish to argue that including parse publications that the player is not aware of makes his metrics more authentic or relevantly informative, neither would the purpose be in any way lost by making the publication optional.

---

See above for my response to breaking the system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

:: Just in principle, I hugely dislike the idea of "opt out". It means inconveniencing yourself each and every time, especially if the choice cannot be automated, and still possibly losing the choice by lack of notice or notification. If it's benign enough to be "opt out", it really needn't be optional at all. But if reasonably perceivable, in whomever's eyes, to be in whatever way threatening enough to need to be optional, then it should be opt in, not out. Just my personal preference in these regards.

---

I'm only 46% sure (because I've never personally done it), but once you opt out, it's a one and done thing. All further logs are always opted out. If I am wrong please let me know. I am no expert on that bit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

While things definitely do not hit that hard in this game, tankbusters do still need at least cooldowns to survive. Tank stance, no. Cooldowns, yes. I fondly recall one of the tanks in my static forgetting to CD for Exfaust’s Thunder III in V4S, dying, and then Exfaust turning around to finish the job on the poor unsuspecting melee. Always amusing when that happens, though.

---

Agreed, that's specifically why I mentioned tank stance and not CDs :). Although I may or may not have one time taken an Aero 3 to the face completely unmitigated and lived (#shoutout to my healers).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

The thing about anecdotes is that they cannot be used as any sort of quantifiable or quantitative evidence; they are already skewed in the fact that they are a personal experience, so emotions are going to get in the way as opposed to if the data presented by either side were cold, hard numbers. They cannot be used as a reliable source of data for either side. So, while they cannot be used as an adequate reason to slow/deny change, they also cannot be used as an adequate reason to prompt swift/sudden change. Because they’re anecdotes. There’s a reason why they are never used in serious research and/or debates.

---

On one hand I agree that anecdotes aren't super quantifiable, but on the other I quite like reading anecdotes. It really helps me understand WHY someone holds the stance they do. It can help lend credence to the facts they supplied, or draw attention to holes in a persons argument and help me guide them to better see my POV.

I don't need to change someones mind. I really don't (unless it's hilariously and obviously wrong). I just want to understand WHY they hold their view, and have them understand WHY I hold mine. I think that's why I like anecdotes.

With respect to this discussion, I tend to have a really hard time understanding where "FFLogs is bad" type of people are coming from.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KaldeaSahaline

Snip . . .

---

Here is the thing not many reasonable people will say FFLogs are bad, they are tool depends on how it is used. Thing is some players are nice the kindest bunch and will use whatever tool they have at their disposal to belittle and berate another. Now there is nothing we can do to eliminate such behavior, but we make little tweaks that do not impact the core game play to at the very least provide some protection that is not reactionary.

Will an opt-in add an extra hoop and potentially skew the data? Yeah, but as a whole the tool can still be used to improve ones play. Thing is SE does not officially support the use of parser, so from a logical perspective why should someone have to opt out of a feature that SE officially does not support?

It will not protect a player from all cases of parser abuse, but at the very least it will remove one aspect of it without having any effect on the core game experience. If a one tweak like that can even limit one case of harassment I am all for it. Now in practice I am not sure how much effort would have to go into making FFLogs opt-in, though I do think FFLogs would gladly comply if SE did request that they made so players had to opt-in to use a tool they officially do not support.

Once again FFLogs are not bad, it is just data just so happens that some people like to mess use said data, and while an opt-in feature will not solve all the issues, at the very least it will remove that one aspect when people look up your logs to mock a player simply because they did not know FFLogs was a thing. Sure it is one aspect of it, but it is one aspect they will no longer have to worry about unless they choose to do so by opting in.

Though in the end if people truly value the tool they will continue to support it. While state people can simply opt out, main question I have is why should they have to? Shouldn't it be the other way around since SE does not officially support parser.

I truly enjoy running parser even for basic content and while I do not raid much in FFXIV, I did do my fair share in WoW. Mostly shifted back to PvP. I truly do understand the value the tool provides, personally I just wish people did not abuse the data to mock others, but that will never be a thing so at this point I am just trying to limit certain instances that lead to such harassment without having too much of an impact on the game itself.

The thing about opt-in is that it will not get rid of the harassment that does occur. If someone wants to be a jerk, they will be one regardless; FFLogs be damned. It will not remove the aspect of players looking up logs; any logs that show up as hidden, like others have said, will still carry a negative connotation--e.g., "you've hidden your logs because you have something to hide" is the basic mentality people will probably use. Opt-ins and opt-outs will not fix that issue.

Of course, all of this is speculation and cannot be proven--and I do mean my post and yours. I honestly did not know about FFLogs until I started posting on here; I'd never heard it mentioned in-game before. The best way to limit harassment in a way that will not negatively affect the game is to do what others (and GMs) have suggested: report harassment, blacklist, and move on. Rather than start crusades against a group of people all because of one bad apple.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Snip . . .

---

As I have said it will not get rid of all harassment that occurs, but if it has the potential to limit even one case of harassment how is that a bad thing? For examples not sure if it was this thread or another but someone asked to join a group and instead of just being told no, they mocked them because of their numbers they had on FFLogs.

According to this person they had no idea what FFLogs were. Sure they can report and blacklist, but if FFLogs were opt in, said player may have never had to experience it. We do not know you are right.

I know it is silly, but I just did not see what is so wrong with trying to take preventive measures where it is reasonably possible. Also does not make sense how a feature that is not supported by SE has to be opt out of instead of in. As I have said before it will not fix everything but if it does prevent issues like the above example and has no real effect on the game experience that SE has crafted then why not.

Also if a feature is not integrated into the game by SE why should one be expected to go out of their way to not take part of it. I mean to hide your data on the site you need to register an account with the site, claim your characters then go to settings to hide your logs. According to https://www.fflogs.com/help/hidingcharacters

Leaving the risk of abuse aside, why is that reasonable for a player to do that does not wish to take part in something that is not part of the base game?

There are already measures in place: report harassment and blacklist. After that, cases are handled by GMs. If there is obvious evidence of in-game harasssment, punishment is dealt. Creating a "safe space" is not the way to go. I don't support the idea of any type of "safe space", because it won't solve anything. It will just coddle people and that's not going to do much. I don't see the need for coddling. Someone's being a jerk? Report, blacklist, be done with it. Don't demand safe spaces.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

Snip . . .

---

I know I am naive and to some stupid which I am. I know many of you will never see my point I do not think I will ever see the majorities point. I understand where you are coming from, I just do not see how if something has the potential to prevent one negative experience and has very little impact on the overall game I do not see why we shouldn't do it.

I understand the position may of you share, leaving that aside. As I mentioned at the end leaving the idea of abuse out, why is it a feature that is not integrated into the game by SE why should one be expected to go out of their way to not take part of it. I mean to hide your data on the site you need to register an account with the site, claim your characters then go to settings to hide your logs. According to https://www.fflogs.com/help/hidingcharacters

Why should the everyday common player be expected to do that do for a feature not officially supported by SE?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Awha

...[it is] a feature that is not integrated into the game by SE...[] why should one be expected to go out of their way to not take part of it. I mean to hide your data on the site you need to register an account with the site, claim your characters then go to settings to hide your logs. According to https://www.fflogs.com/help/hidingcharacters

Why should the everyday common player be expected to do that do for a feature not officially supported by SE?

---

On principle I absolutely agree with you in this regard. It might not be asking much of a player, but I feel it should not be asking at all. No one should have to research potentially esoteric rule-sets of third party tools just to maintain their knowledge or consent over publications of information including them that would otherwise be indistinguishable from publications they, themselves, produced.

I don't think it's a major concern, as I haven't even once seen harassment based upon tools like fflogs, but on principle, I absolutely agree.

But as for other concerns you've mentioned as to harassment and countermeasures therefore, no countermeasures are entirely "free of cost", even if not at direct cost to the game experience, as they still cost development time at the expense of some other, likely more warranted, creation.