Agreed. It's bad design. Enrage mechanics are lazy design, IMO. I prefer fights with flexible mechanics than can be mitigated in various ways. One such mechanic, for example, is a party-wide DoT that increases over time. You can either beat that by maximizing DPS or by optimizing heals. An effective mechanic I remember from WoW is an AoE attack whose damage was spread among everyone in a specific area. The idea was to assign players to zones so you'd always have a decent amount of players to soak the attack. Again, you can beat that by reducing the number of such attacks, you can beat it by being efficient with your zones, and you could beat it by having a tank solo-soak it with cool downs. I think that's far more exciting and just as challenging as a simple enrage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pepsi_Plunge
So, can we just ban damage meters already.
Printable View
-
08-23-2019, 04:37 AMRonduwil
-
08-23-2019, 04:53 AMRonduwilAgreed that this is FFXIV, but many of us with objections to openly allowing parsers have those objections because of our WoW experience. I have yet to encounter any toxic behavior in the duty finder, and I'm inclined to credit the lack of parsers as well as diligent moderation for this. I don't know what else could account for it. You're arguing that parsers make everything better, but those of us who come from WoW know for a fact that the opposite is the case. It's silly to disregard experience from a different MMO for the same feature just because it was a different MMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
The current don't-ask-don't-tell policy is optimal. Those who want to use parsers properly to improve their own performance can do so. Those who want to misuse parsers to belittle other players are prevented from doing so. Don't fix what's not broken. -
08-23-2019, 05:15 AMMiles064I started WoW right before Cata and I played on and off til BFA. The only times people got called out by parsers that I can remember were when it was really bad. Not low(people understood while lvling/gearing up some classes scaled differently) but legit "what are you even doing?" bad. That "what are you even doing?" bad was somewhat rare in WoW but is all over the place in FF14. I cringe whenever i see a NIN in my party now, not because NIN is weak(I'm told they can use some help? haven't leveled it yet) but because they are pretty much always trash. No aoe, rarely use muradas, spam throwing knife, just auto attacking for 4-5 seconds at a time levels of trash. And these are all level 71+.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronduwil
With public parsers these players would have real numbers showing just how bad they are playing. From there they can improve or the party can get rid of them. Because of this I'd argue parsers should be used from the moment you can go into your first dungeon to allow you to see with numbers how you are doing and how that changes for you and other players/classes as you gain levels and gear. It would give the player base a roadmap of how they should be scaling and the value of each new skill they gain. -
08-23-2019, 05:35 AMGranyalaI don't think they are. You have to push DPS players somehow.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronduwil
Would prefer the enrages not to be THAT strict and also I'd prefer soft enrages (adds overwhelm the raid, stacking debuffs, gradual speed up on mechanics etc) to "lul was just kidding until now, fun's over" instagib abilities. -
08-23-2019, 05:45 AMgalbsadiThis sounds much more like a bad tank rather than a parsing issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever_Learning
I mean, I maybe slightly off, b/c I've only leveled one tank to 80 (the others are all 75-76)...but for the most part most of the damage abilities on a tank are GCD, and all of the cooldowns are oGCD...so there's literally nothing stopping a tank looking to maximize DPS from using cooldowns.
In fact, in the case of Warrior at least one CD (Vengeance) would increase your DPS if used accordingly, so a WAR focusing on DPS would want to further ensure they were using their CDs.
The more likely scenario you're looking at here is a case of new (or newer) tanks that simply haven't learned about proper CD usage, be it due to thinking of CDs as something to use in emergencies rather than proactively (which is wrong, BTW, buttons are made to be pressed...even the invulns [yes, even Bolide])...or be it to simply not realizing how impactful those abilities can be.
I tend to come across 3 types of CD usage from tanks:
Tank A doesn't use CDs pretty much ever...and I, as the healer, am cursing them under my breath the entire run...but I don't believe this is a 'because of parsers' issue...they just don't use their CDs.
Tank B is almost as bad as Tank A. They use their CDs, but it's all or nothing. No CD, no CD, ALL THE CDs, no CD. It's great for the 20s where CDs are up, but sucks for the other 70 you're left waiting.
Tank C...is my favorite type of tank. They know how to rotate their CDs, and they're also the tank I try to be when tanking myself (and comments and commends received while tanking would imply I do at least an 'okay' job at striving for such).
Note that none of these have anything to do with parsing or not parsing, either.
Here's where parsing does start to matter, if one cares:
If I cared about parsing first and foremost, I might want certain players in my group to boost my personal DPS outlook. No more WHM, give me SCH/AST instead (and have them buff me and only me). Also, that DNC better use CP on me, etc. That's caring about parses for the sake of parsing...not whether I do or don't use CDs.
If I cared about parsing first and foremost, I would never run with DF groups (or probably even PF groups). I can't guarantee I wouldn't get bad players that way, and bad players can screw up my parse.
If I cared about parsing first and foremost, I probably wouldn't enjoy the game as much as I do, because I'd be too focused on numbers (like a certain former member of my static who quit leading and tanking so he could focus on MNK dps :P) to the extent of missing the enjoyment of playing with like-minded people.
Part of this might be that I don't tend to parse too terribly once I've gotten a fight down...but I've almost never seen someone complain about my DPS numbers even if I knew for a fact that they were parsing....and that's here or in WoW. (Exceptions exist, ofc, but those are typically people I don't want to play with anyhow.) -
08-23-2019, 05:50 AMEnla
I think Construct 7 is a perfect example of the necessity of enrage mechanics. That fight can take upwards of twenty minutes of pure torture if people aren't actually paying attention. I still remember when that raid first dropped and almost every run was like that - just one arduous grind where bad players got the carry while every rez-capable role was working their tail off to get people up. It's easier /now/ but christ on a crack an enrage timer would have made that fight so much more manageable. An enrage timer isn't just punishment for bad DPS. It's a chance to stop, reset, and think over what's going wrong in a fight.
-
08-23-2019, 05:57 AMHyoMinParkMy argument here is actually that you can't blame everything on parsers. Learning is insistent that parsers and obsessions over damage are why tanks won't use defensive cooldowns. I'm asking for proof of this statement, because I think the two are unrelated. They keep bringing up unrelated statements about healer DPS, content creators, and WoW instead of answering my question.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronduwil
I think parsers are wonderful tools. But that's not what I'm arguing with them at all. If you think that, you haven't read what I'm actually saying. -
08-23-2019, 06:01 AMAndevomI disagree in that scenario. Enrage timer on that would've been frustrating. Think of how it'd be if you're three fights into your raid, and your group just can't get it done before enrage. Would you really want to drop and go through it all again? You've got 23 other players to worry about there, it's a totally different beast from 8 player content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enla
-
08-23-2019, 06:02 AMValkyrie_LennethWell, if those 23 other people were forced to actually look up guides and get better the playerbase as a whole would benefit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andevom
-
08-23-2019, 06:07 AMHyoMinParkOn the other hand, it's equally frustrating to be one of those 24 stuck in a 20-minute war of attrition because people aren't punished for repeated deaths and mechanical failures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andevom
-
08-23-2019, 06:14 AMAndevomI'd rather sit through the 20 minutes *once* than have to reset the fight over and over with a chance of us not being able to finish the raid. Not against enrage timers for the content they exist in, just wouldn't be enthusiastic about introducing them into this kind of content. DPS check phases exist in every one of the Ivalice raids, so the punishment for failing mechanics is already in place, just not as severe.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
-
08-23-2019, 07:11 AMAvidriaSee, I don't agree. I played WoW for more than a decade, and I dabbled in raiding (very very casually) BC through WoD and then did a bit of mythic in Legion. And I *loved* having a damage meter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronduwil
I loved instantly being able to see how well I was doing compared to where someone with my gear could be - loved having an easy way to see if I was doing something wrong. And you know what, yes, I also liked being able to see when someone in my party was doing something wrong too. Sometimes the wrong was very wrong - I'm talking auto attacking Hunter in a level 80 dungeon wrong, or healer doing zero dispels in a debuff heavy raid wrong here. I saw both of those more than once. I saw some downright baffling things, actually, but I only ever called out the serious problems (and yes I consider afk auto attacking for an entire dungeon to be a serious problem).
Were some people jerks? Absolutely. Did people abuse it? Yeah, that and a whole lot of other things about the game/other add-ons. That happens when you've got thousands of people equipped with the shield of anonymity in a random player queue. I will say, my personal favorite were people spamming meters in low level dungeon... That type of thing was honestly nothing but hilarious and sad.
The only time I saw people getting a big boot for low damage was after LFR wipes... and a lot of times low meant *really freaking low.*
Vast majority of groups though, it either never got mentioned or somebody would ask for a meter link to see how they were doing. This is wild for me to say considering how I feel about Blizz and WoW lately (read: not good), but for this particular topic? I prefer Blizzard's way of handling it. -
08-23-2019, 07:18 AMHyoMinParkI’d rather have more enrage mechanics at level cap so that people learn they can’t just faceroll and war of attrition the content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andevom
If Construct 7 had a 10m enrage and you cleared him on the second pull, you would have actually spent less time starting the fight over and trying again than you would have in the 20m pull you described in your initial post. -
08-23-2019, 07:26 AMAbelArchaniEA
You soundalike a diva. Either report them or move on. Removing Damage meters won't make people nicer to you.
-
08-23-2019, 08:42 AMAndevomMy initial post didn't mention the 20 minute pull (I don't think I ever experienced it lasting that long personally), but rather the post I was responding to did.Quote:
Originally Posted by HyoMinPark
And yes, in ideal circumstances, it'd be much faster. Realistically though, is the player base really going to take consistent failure at a 24 player raid as an indication that they need to get better? No, they're going to say the devs messed up and made it too hard. The threads that appeared here when Weeping City came out give a good idea of how well this would be received.
I understand where you're coming from and the desire for the player base to work towards improving their performance, and I don't fundamentally disagree with that sentiment. I would say we have content for that. I think of the 24 player raids as a stepping stone towards trying out harder things, so I expect them to be a little more forgiving than a raid or EX trial, but harder than a dungeon. The rewards obtained from them tend to reflect that. -
08-23-2019, 09:12 AMRaven2014Same thing can be said about without a tool to hold people accountable, bad players will never have the need of improved and good players will be forced to carry. Ignorant is a bliss, and many will choose to stay that way. I already gave the example, a group of 7 people kept demanding the best player among to improve more because they were ignorant to the fact they are worse player than him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Forever_Learning
And like I said, while it's true that it can causes some people to be overzealous about their performance, these people would normally already have a high skill level to begin with. While neither extreme is desirable, and I would like to group with people who are conscious and take their performance serious but not to the point of killing themselves and others over it - if you ask me to choose between two extreme: bad players who are ignorant of their performance and elitist players who play selfishly, I can assure you it won't be a hard choice.
To be frank, the current state is probably the most balance state right now. I don't believe the dev will ever be brave enough to have an official parser in the game. At the same time, they know parse is an invaluable tool that benefit the majority of the people who they design the specific content for (savage/ultimate raiders). So they will forever remain on the sideline with a tacit approval on the unofficial, they will turn away as long as people don't overstep (harassing others). So really if that's what you're arguging for, then you are spending needlessly effort, the status quo will not change.Quote:
I made the remark originally to explain why I prefer the status quo rather than having parsers be an official part of the game.
Are you arguing that parsers should be an official part of the game?
A good solution for me will be the game has an official parse but only display your own performance, and no one else. You will be told how well you did in relative to people playing the same class, but not of others in your party (so you can't harass them for it). But when I think about it, it won't happen. Because if it happens, I bet it'll take 2 days before complaining post of certain nature will surface, like "this is a game, I don't play a game for it to tell me how bad I am!! It causes me mental distress!". Like I said, ignorant is a bliss. 9/10 times, complains about parsing are from people who got called out by it, you don't hear parsers complaining about parsing, except for asking it to be an official tool. Whether you think it's a desirable behavior or not, it serves as the example to show the average different skill level between who parse and who don't.
Not sure what this even supposed to mean. But I assure you, I don't care who is the person behind the character, only the skill that they display. And I do not condone the harassment of other players for their performance (in fact I look down on it). But while I don't call out bad players, but I would like to have the tool to excuse myself from their presence.Quote:
On the topic of people from different walks of life coming together, I hope they converse in a polite manner.
-
08-23-2019, 09:43 AMMhaericI like this option as well and have posted this suggestion myself. The only difference I would add would be to make it optional and default to off which would handily solve the scenario you brought up in that last sentence I quoted. Additionally, people who want the full parse can still do that using the tools that are already available, and policy regarding discussing parses would not need to change at all since it is all still covered under the harassment and 3rd party tool parts of the ToS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raven2014
More specifically, the features I would like to see from an official parser are:
1. My personal DPS for the run.
2. The average or mean DPS for that content across other players of that job. Although it wouldn't be as preferred, a star rating here would be acceptable as long as we see a specific number for our personal DPS since star ratings are not specific enough on their own to be able to fine-tune your performance.
3. The option to turn the parser on and off, with it defaulting to off.
4. It does not display any information about other players except indirectly via the average or mean DPS number for that content.
That is all that is necessary for an official parser for a DPS job.
I have some additional wishlist items for an official parser which I know are not going to happen, but one can dream:
1. For tanks, the official parser keeps track of how many tank busters the boss uses and keeps a count of how many times tank cooldowns (e.g. Sentinel) or enemy damage reduction cooldowns (e.g. Reprisal) were in place at the moment you were hit by one of them. This would the number of times at least one cooldown was in effect when hit by a tank buster rather than a count of the number of cooldowns active when hit by a tank buster. Both of these counts are okay to have, but the first one is more important.
2. For healers, the official parser keeps track of how much overhealing was done and compares it to the average for your job. -
08-23-2019, 12:51 PMGranyalaA moderately strict enrage time would have made that thing basically unkillable and would lead to tons of aborted runs and huge heaps of frustration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enla
-
08-23-2019, 12:52 PMValkyrie_Lenneth"unkillable".... really?Quote:
Originally Posted by Granyala
-
08-23-2019, 12:54 PMGranyalaThey won't. That's the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
You cannot force people to play well. WoW tried that back in Cataclysm and failed very hard with the whole concept.
The majority of the community isn't interested in "playing right" or "challenge".
Not in a mathematical sense, mind you, but you'd have a high probability of failure, yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
I'd rather not have to start 24man raids over and over again while hoping to get paired with semi competent people just to get my weekly token.
Rezzing butts for 15m on one boss once and being done with it is the lesser evil here. -
08-23-2019, 02:10 PMHash_Browns
I dunno, I think having steadily harsher and harsher enrage timers would be a good thing.
Having the first few dungeons/trials not have enrage timers, and then each dungeon boss/trial boss slowly getting stricter, and stricter - forcing players to actually do their part. -
08-23-2019, 02:24 PMBillythepancakeI wouldn't mind that, personally, but you have to consider the casual players who only see this as another final fantasy game, and not as an MMO. They don't have an interest in "gitting gud", they just want to experience the story and the world the game has to offer, which is fair for fans of the series. So I dont think normal content needs to be difficult, hell, when it is difficult *cough* *cough* aurum vale*cough**cough*, people complain about it being too difficult and beg for nerfs to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hash_Browns
-
08-23-2019, 02:53 PMHash_BrownsIf putting an enrage timer on bosses makes the game too difficult then their is a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billythepancake
Aurum Vale isn't even a difficult dungeon. None of the dungeons in the game currently have much difficulty to them. -
08-23-2019, 03:07 PMBillythepancakeFor a lot of people, sure, I agree. Now I'd say aurum Vale isnt too bad, but I've also invested 3000 hours into this game and have progged ultimate fights as well as do savage content. But I remember my first run of bardams mettle, or Aurum Vale, shit was rough, I could barely keep up. I kept with it because I like a challenge though (clearly, right?) But not everyone does, and again, a lot of people only play this game for the story, which is completely fair, so locking the game away from them because they dont want to git gud hardly seems fair. Savage content is there for people who want to push themselves, normal content is meant to be for everyone, including the casuals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hash_Browns
-
08-23-2019, 03:11 PMRoyalBeefGo join Suzaku "farm" party in PF... as soon as Colour mechanics kick in and peole have to multitask, your casual level 80 DPS player drops from 6-7k, which in't good but more than enough to clear anyway, to 2-3k instantly lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth
-
08-23-2019, 03:16 PMHash_BrownsI don't think expecting a certain level of play has anything to do with the "git gud" mentality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billythepancake
Players wanting to experience the story, and not get into the end-game high level content, or just play casually? That's fine. But this is a two-way street. I'm not saying we should expect EX/Savage levels here, but their needs to be a point where you have to learn about your class rather then pushing buttons, and willing.
As it stands right now, why can someone know nothing about the class they are playing, go into a dungeon, and I have to deal with that hot mess, and I'm the bad guy for not putting up with it, and kicking them?
This falls even flatter on the fact that in any game you are expected to learn, and get better in order to progress. That's a single player thing - in this situation you are holding 3/7/23 other people back because "Lol, I just wanna experience the story, calm down, I play for fun."
End game dungeons, and content in general should require actual team play, not what it is now.
As it stands - as long as the tank can self-heal (PLD, WAR), they can clear level 80 dungeon bosses without a healer.
Sad truth being that those players probably don't know they are pushing low numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyalBeef
-
08-23-2019, 03:47 PMRoyalBeefAt some point we need some more gating tho. Ilevel requirements don't work at all, because you get "welfare" tomestone gear for trivial activities that is only slightly worse than top notch raid gear, and allows you to queue up for that endgame content. You could literally do MSQ roulette every day to hit level 80 with 450/460 gear, clear Eden by tanking the floor and having the other 7 ppl do it and then hop right into savage, wondering why people yell at you for doing 2k DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Billythepancake
Of course normal story content shouldn't be gated, problem is high end stuff isn't really gated either. As soon as people are able to queue up for it,they will. Put in a solo duty with a Boss that doesn't really do much damage but has an enrage timer, so you need to hit X DPS in order to clear and unlock the next Ex/Savage or something. -
08-23-2019, 03:59 PMBillythepancakeSome sort of requirement for savage I'm fine with, I've certainly seen people hop in there that arent ready for what savage entails, but normal content I think is fine as.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyalBeef
-
08-23-2019, 04:43 PMAmeliaVerves
I had a 23min E4 NM run the other day and at the end the DPS who did less damage than I did (on whm) wrote GG in chat. No. That was not good game, friendo.
We need enrage timers in NM 8 man raids, please. I don't want my weekly NM raids take longer than Ultimates and need more HPS... :( -
08-23-2019, 04:48 PMSturmChurroYep, you are the equivalent of an "elitist" for expecting the bare minimum of acceptable play from another player. It's actually ridiculous. Like, is it so hard to use aoe skills? It's brain dead easy, literally. You can even stand still in most situations. Just press that button instead of that one. Lordy lordy, it's not like expecting some sort of high level play here, every time I read coddle posts or see some trash in duty finder, all I do is roll my eyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hash_Browns
Apparently, people think I'm a liar when I say I don't kick, but I totally understand where people are coming from when they don't want to put up with it and kick. Other players should be taken into consideration too - the ones who don't want to, or don't have the time to wait out the timer on someone who can't grasp the basics. -
08-23-2019, 05:33 PMForteNightshadeThey are less severe, they're downright trivial. Only just this week, I had an Orbonne run with just twenty people; at least four died during adds. We still made the DPS check, albeit just barely. That's essentially a full Alliance worth of players and it's still passable. With regards to Weeping City. People complained because the dev team has a persistence for caving in. Ironically, they didn't for Weeping, Nidhogg and even Shinryu later on. Eventually, people stopped whining when they knew it wasn't going to change.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andevom
While I do not think 24 mans, trials and the like should be insanely hard or any such thing. I don't think demanding people be halfway decent is asking too much here. In fact, Death Wing has an enrage. It worked just fine.
They sheer amount of people I've seen absolutely shocked at this damage when they ask about parsers really highlights this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hash_Browns
-
08-23-2019, 07:26 PMRyuSaarvaat least you cleared it and did not get a vote abandon party.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves
-
08-23-2019, 09:06 PMGranyalaNo, instead you want to queue 5x to fish out a competent group to actually clear the thing and spend upwards of an hour in the queues alone... yeah that sure sounds a lot better than having a somewhat lengthy encounter.Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves
-
08-23-2019, 09:25 PMLalaRuRequiring to pass its SSS before unlocking the actual duty, will be something interesting to look forward at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barraind
-
08-23-2019, 10:05 PMLiam_HarperThey'd never do it. It'd be WoW with Proving Ground Silver all over again, some players would actually never beat it and would quit over it. Rather than improve or admit to any fault, we'd have walls of threads about how overtuned it is. Even now people claim SSS is overtuned, while I'm 40 sec or so left on the timer for EX and consider myself a fairly average player with a lot to improve on in actual fights. Or those players who rant about groups with ilv requirements over the minimum when the game is raining 450 on you and they can't be bother to put minimal effort into a character before joining an endgame content group.Quote:
Originally Posted by LalaRu
It's a sad fact that MMO's are intentionally designed that the good players carry the bad ones who can't be bothered, so they happily keep paying a sub. -
08-23-2019, 11:10 PMwdeschainIt is job dependent, but SSS is and has been overtuned. Google "are ffxiv SSS dummies overtuned," and it will return plenty of posts--some with SE admittance(source citations peppered about even).Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
-
08-23-2019, 11:24 PMAndevomWell sure, *now* they're all much easier. Take that same situation when the fight was relevant and I doubt your group would've made it. But yes, once the clears started coming in, people stopped complaining. I'd argue that's because, ultimately, these encounters were designed well and the devs saw that people were clearing at rates that fell within expectations. For me, Weeping City's situation was revealing in that people who thought they were much better at the game and demanded "midcore" content got something close to that and couldn't tackle it right away. Rather than consider they needed to improve, they immediately complained it was too difficult.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
It's not asking for too much, but the implication seems to be your group can be brain dead and clear 24 player raids when that has been demonstrably untrue in the past. And Deathgaze Hollow's enrage worked fine because it was the first boss of the raid, not three fights in when you've already invested a good chunk of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForteNightshade
-
08-24-2019, 01:49 AMGranyalaI think Ghostcrawler put it best: If you ask people to raise to a challenge, most will try a few times and then quit instead of actually working on improving themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
https://twitter.com/ghostcrawler/sta...396162?lang=en
https://twitter.com/Ghostcrawler/sta...93830291095553
Cataclysm has proven that pretty effectively. While it was tons of fun for us in guild groups, it was SUPER painful in random groups.
I can understand SE learning this lesson and not trying it again themselves. -
08-24-2019, 02:11 AMNora_of_MiraI think it's more accurate to say that MMOs are designed with human behaviors in mind and the format of difficult/easy content is a response to these human tendencies to avoid things we dont like. casual players dont want to have to try to get better for the content so they either avoid it altogether or keep lying to themselves and hope they get carried.Quote:
Originally Posted by Liam_Harper
-
08-24-2019, 04:10 AMRonduwilWho says we don't agree? I loved having a damage meter, too. What I didn't love was running through random on-level Deadmines with a jerk decked out in heirlooms spamming the meters after every boss fight and complaining about how he's carrying the group through all 20 seconds of it. Maybe it's because I love to level alts, but that wasn't a one-off experience. I saw it all the time. I'm just saying that the current don't-ask-don't-tell policy is just fine. If you want to have your damage meter, you can have it, but don't advertise it unless it's with your FC in Discord.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avidria