BLU for Duty Finder and Raids! Show your support!

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Originally Posted by Blueyes

If fans of the existing concept have nothing to lose, why not support those who wish to see Blue Mage gain access to all content?

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This is the part I don't understand. Outside of the people who are riding this train because they enjoy seeing other people upset (and there have been quite a few I've come across during this debacle, self-admitting no less) they have no reason to contest the idea.

I can only assume it's because some people despise group content but continue to play an MMO for some reason. There's been a surprising amount of that coming out of the woodwork. Even then you'd think they should be fine with the concept provided they don't lose any of their solo content, so it just feels like it loops back around to arguing against it for the sake of keeping people unhappy.

Honestly it's not something I can fathom. You would think everyone would want to be on the same page for BLU to be the best version of itself that it can be that most people on both sides of the line could enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Skyskip

This is the part I don't understand. Outside of the people who are riding this train because they enjoy seeing other people upset (and there have been quite a few I've come across during this debacle, self-admitting no less) they have no reason to contest the idea.

I can only assume it's because some people despise group content but continue to play an MMO for some reason. There's been a surprising amount of that coming out of the woodwork. Even then you'd think they should be fine with the concept provided they don't lose any of their solo content, so it just feels like it loops back around to arguing against it for the sake of keeping people unhappy.

Honestly it's not something I can fathom. You would think everyone would want to be on the same page for BLU to be the best version of itself that it can be that most people on both sides of the line could enjoy.

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That's why we keep saying that some people view it as a "us vs them" thing. They believe one side has to lose instead of pushing so most in this debate can get what they want.

And before this one poster tries to twist what I'm saying, "most in this debate" means those of us that want a full blu and those that want open world and side content.

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Originally Posted by Skyskip

This is the part I don't understand. Outside of the people who are riding this train because they enjoy seeing other people upset (and there have been quite a few I've come across during this debacle, self-admitting no less) they have no reason to contest the idea.

I can only assume it's because some people despise group content but continue to play an MMO for some reason. There's been a surprising amount of that coming out of the woodwork. Even then you'd think they should be fine with the concept provided they don't lose any of their solo content, so it just feels like it loops back around to arguing against it for the sake of keeping people unhappy.

Honestly it's not something I can fathom. You would think everyone would want to be on the same page for BLU to be the best version of itself that it can be that most people on both sides of the line could enjoy.

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Ironic of you to say this when you joined the forums just to make waves and attack anyone making positive posts about limited BLU.
You can't fathom it because you're too emotionally compromised by the idea of maining BLU and discarding any arguments of why the devs decided to make it anythinng but limited.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

That's why we keep saying that some people view it as a "us vs them" thing. They believe one side has to lose instead of pushing so most in this debate can get what they want.

And before this one poster tries to twist what I'm saying, "most in this debate" means those of us that want a full blu and those that want open world and side content.

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You've been doing the "us/my side" since the very first posts, even before there were people saying they like/are indifferent to limited BLU. You keep saying it for the purpose of looking a bigger group in the public eye, not because there's any side opposing you (I wouldn't call a majority opposing/being indifferent to a minority as a side vs side. It's too unfair of a comparison). One look at the threads (and being here for the posts/threads that got deleted) shows that it's just the same few individuals going into every BLU related thread just to make it look there's a big ruckus about it (like you and Skyskip being present in any BLU thread).

I mean, there was only one thread complaining about the White Raven earrings being given away and even that got more different people supporting it than "make limited BLU unlimited". Even people who weren't there for 1.X. Meanwhile, "Blu's defence force"? Just the same 2-3 people posting ad infinitum with a few more people posting here and there.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Ironic of you to say this when you joined the forums just to make waves and attack anyone making positive posts about limited BLU.
You can't fathom it because you're too emotionally compromised by the idea of maining BLU and discarding any arguments of why the devs decided to make it anythinng but limited.

You've been doing the "us/my side" since the very first posts, even before there were people saying they like/are indifferent to limited BLU. You keep saying it for the purpose of looking a bigger group in the public eye, not because there's any side opposing you (I wouldn't call a majority opposing/being indifferent to a minority as a side vs side. It's too unfair of a comparison). One look at the threads (and being here for the posts/threads that got deleted) shows that it's just the same few individuals going into every BLU related thread just to make it look there's a big ruckus about it (like you and Skyskip being present in any BLU thread).

I mean, there was only one thread complaining about the White Raven earrings being given away and even that got more different people supporting it than "make limited BLU unlimited". Even people who weren't there for 1.X. Meanwhile, "Blu's defence force"? Just the same 2-3 people posting ad infinitum with a few more people posting here and there.

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I don't tend to look at people's names when they say things, normally. Unless it's a really fun back and forth, like a play. You notice such things, eh?

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Originally Posted by ChaseNetwork

I don't tend to look at people's names when they say things, normally. Unless it's a really fun back and forth, like a play. You notice such things, eh?

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Good memory and they've been in every BLU thread, so it's hard not to notice.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Good memory and they've been in every BLU thread, so it's hard not to notice.

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I've got good memory, though it's resourced differently.
I remember the coordinates of every single mob in the game. Makes hunts super easy and quick.

Its funny in all these threads I seen not one person who is for blue mage being non limited has yet to lay out a constructive idea on how they could even achieve it, I get people are upset and fear the unknown but you have to try something before you can form an opinion, yes it sucks its not going to be 70 cap at day one but this is the first solo class being added to XIV are you not the least bit curious how that pans out XI had solo classes PUP and BST and they were OP when a skilled player was behind the wheel.

I have to wonder if people are more upset about not really knowing how this will work or the fact that they chose BLU to be the first Solo class for the experiment, honestly if that's the case you should count yourself lucky as it sounded like they weren't even going to bother considering blu at all and to quote the guy from mighty no.9 "At least its something".

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Ironic of you to say this when you joined the forums just to make waves and attack anyone making positive posts about limited BLU.
You can't fathom it because you're too emotionally compromised by the idea of maining BLU and discarding any arguments of why the devs decided to make it anythinng but limited.

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You know you're pointing a lot of fingers at me about 'attacking' people yet you're the one who's been insulting throughout this entire ordeal. It's really hard to take you seriously.

There is no good argument for making it limited, full stop.

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Originally Posted by Stigmar

Its funny in all these threads I seen not one person who is for blue mage being non limited has yet to lay out a constructive idea on how they could even achieve it, I get people are upset and fear the unknown but you have to try something before you can form an opinion, yes it sucks its not going to be 70 cap at day one but this is the first solo class being added to XIV are you not the least bit curious how that pans out XI had solo classes PUP and BST and they were OP when a skilled player was behind the wheel.

I have to wonder if people are more upset about not really knowing how this will work or the fact that they chose BLU to be the first Solo class for the experiment, honestly if that's the case you should count yourself lucky as it sounded like they weren't even going to bother considering blu at all and to quote the guy from mighty no.9 "At least its something".

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Is this attempting to make a malicious argument to poison the well? Where in all ideas suggested are not able to satisfy your requirements and therefore "nothing" constructive has been suggested? It really feels so, but I'm hoping you've just not read all the posts (which seems entirely likely since there are so freaking many lol).

I've made, most of my posts in these threads at least, and seen a number of suggested ways to go about making Blue Mage work without scrapping everything (as I personally don't want to see everything scrapped).

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

You've been doing the "us/my side" since the very first posts, even before there were people saying they like/are indifferent to limited BLU. You keep saying it for the purpose of looking a bigger group in the public eye, not because there's any side opposing you (I wouldn't call a majority opposing/being indifferent to a minority as a side vs side. It's too unfair of a comparison). One look at the threads (and being here for the posts/threads that got deleted) shows that it's just the same few individuals going into every BLU related thread just to make it look there's a big ruckus about it (like you and Skyskip being present in any BLU thread).

I mean, there was only one thread complaining about the White Raven earrings being given away and even that got more different people supporting it than "make limited BLU unlimited". Even people who weren't there for 1.X. Meanwhile, "Blu's defence force"? Just the same 2-3 people posting ad infinitum with a few more people posting here and there.

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There were clear sides before I even got into the debate. I was taking part in the debate on reddit the day after the live letter and then here on the official forums three days later. Should actually check my post history before making such a claim. It's mostly the same people on both sides debating all of this. There's a handful of more outspoken people on both sides, some on both sides that post more sporadically, and then some that just made a few posts at most towards this issue. And yes, there are some that share our viewpoint that have left the discussion. That would be because they unsubbed and it's been longer than two weeks since they logged into the game. I can't say for sure how many since no one can. I did have some on reddit that got into this on these boards before me that told me their "forum time" would be running out soon. WoW is seeing a similar thing with it looking like those against things like azerite gear and the rng with loot conceding in the debate when it's really that they have quit the game and can't post anymore.

One of these blu threads was quiet for two days before Fyce (someone that is pro limited blu) bumped it back to the front page.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

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I didn't make any of these threads where the debate is taking place in.

As for the whole sides thing in the first place, I think it's in a response to people that are saying most of us can't get what we want. That it's "us vs them" and that one "side" has to lose so people are picking which outcome they would prefer if it came down to it. If that mindset was dropped, then I bet the sides would mostly vanish.

At least you're not the worse person from your side that I've talked with anymore. You're in second place now.

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Originally Posted by Stigmar

Its funny in all these threads I seen not one person who is for blue mage being non limited has yet to lay out a constructive idea on how they could even achieve it, I get people are upset and fear the unknown but you have to try something before you can form an opinion, yes it sucks its not going to be 70 cap at day one but this is the first solo class being added to XIV are you not the least bit curious how that pans out XI had solo classes PUP and BST and they were OP when a skilled player was behind the wheel.

I have to wonder if people are more upset about not really knowing how this will work or the fact that they chose BLU to be the first Solo class for the experiment, honestly if that's the case you should count yourself lucky as it sounded like they weren't even going to bother considering blu at all and to quote the guy from mighty no.9 "At least its something".

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http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...l-Blu-Concepts <----- would like to say Hi!

Like Shougun said, there have plenty of posts for how they could see blu work in the full game. Not all the details hammered out but that's not out job.

We don't have to try out a job built around soloing to know that we would have preferred a job that is available to be used in all the same things that the current combat jobs can. BST and PUP were not designed to be strictly solo jobs on XI. They could participate in ALL the same content as any other job. It was the player base that pushed them to be mostly solo as many players didn't want to drop gil into dismissing their pet before the party killed something to just call out another jug pet or spend the millions it would take to get the important pup attachments. Pretty sure PUP was never OP in the 75 days and yes BST was capable of soloing some things but was no where close to what RDM and NIN were capable of.

Blu being the first in this experiment wouldn't change much. Those of us against a job having these types of restrictions would still be saying the same thing. There would be some people that are upset because they wanted to main blu that would be swapped out with people that wanted to main bst if that was the first limited job.

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Originally Posted by Blueyes

If fans of the existing concept have nothing to lose, why not support those who wish to see Blue Mage gain access to all content?

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What if they do have something to lose?

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Originally Posted by Skyskip

This is the part I don't understand. Outside of the people who are riding this train because they enjoy seeing other people upset (and there have been quite a few I've come across during this debacle, self-admitting no less) they have no reason to contest the idea.

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Originally Posted by Skyskip

There is no good argument for making it limited, full stop.

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Maybe you would understand if you tried, instead of stating your opinion like a fact.
You don't get to decide if people's concerns about what you ask for are justified or not.

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Side tangent:

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Originally Posted by jon041065

One of these blu threads was quiet for two days before Fyce (someone that is pro limited blu) bumped it back to the front page.

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I'm not on the forums 24/7, and it's not because a thread gets in the second page that I'll refrain myself from answering to someone who have thrown ad hominems at me, used strawmans, put words in my mouth, and assumed that I was being disingenuous because I asked my question too aggressively for their tastes.
The post you quoted from me wasn't even about BLU itself. It was me defending myself from someone who just wanted to attack me. So don't use that as an excuse for "my side" keeping up the debate. If that dude kept it shut instead of flaming me, I'd have not answered.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

I'm not on the forums 24/7, and it's not because a thread gets in the second page that I'll refrain myself from answering to someone who have thrown ad hominems at me, used strawmans, put words in my mouth, and assumed that I was being disingenuous because I asked my question too aggressively for their tastes.
The post you quoted from me wasn't even about BLU itself. It was me defending myself from someone who just wanted to attack me. So don't use that as an excuse for "my side" keeping up the debate. If that dude kept it shut instead of flaming me, I'd have not answered.

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You're more than welcome to post when you can and in response to what you want. I brought your post up to show that it's not just the same "2-3" of us that are keeping these threads active. New people or people that post infrequently will bump the thread back up and then people from both viewpoints make responses.

And I will agree with you somewhat about the person you responded to in that thread. I don't believe it was quite as bad as you view it but do feel he did alter some of the points you were trying to make in order to make them easier to argue against. I've said many times that there is plenty of toxicity on both sides and I wish there wasn't a post limit so I could do more to stop it on our side.

Remember that we don't have a bad history with one another.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

I actually thank jon041065 for engaging with me the way he did, trying to answer honestly to my question. And while the end paragraph was a bit shady and the post had some contradictions, it helped me grasp what could some people consider as the job's identity.

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Am still curious about what you thought was shady and what contradictions there were but maybe you can explain in that thread.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

What if they do have something to lose?

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Any examples of what could be lost if SE were to make blu unlimited in a way that left the Carnival content alone? I haven't seen many that have just said "lift the restrictions and let it run free" which I'm sure you will also agree would be bad. So I'm curious if you feel there is more than that.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

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If people want proof that I can disagree with other people fighting for unlimited blu. Again, I'm in support of many things that players want if it's not at the cost of what others want.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

You're more than welcome to post when you can and in response to what you want. I brought your post up to show that it's not just the same "2-3" of us that are keeping these threads active. New people or people that post infrequently will bump the thread back up and then people from both viewpoints make responses.

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I've no complaints about these threads staying alive so long as people are postings in ways that further the discussion or in response to other posts. However, you, Skyskip and other "Unlimited" BLU supporters have frequently just posted "Bump" posts when the threads were dead, dying or being buried so that they'd pop up back on page one, without adding anything further to the thread or responding to anyone.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I've no complaints about these threads staying alive so long as people are postings in ways that further the discussion or in response to other posts. However, you, Skyskip and other "Unlimited" BLU supporters have frequently just posted "Bump" posts when the threads were dead, dying or being buried so that they'd pop up back on page one, without adding anything further to the thread or responding to anyone.

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I know I've done one "bump" in one of my own threads. There is possibly 2-3 total times I've done that though. I wouldn't say that is frequent.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

-snip-

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The debate was being slow lately because everyone is tired of seeing and writting the same arguments over and over again. Heck, even when I read that Skyskip admitted that he didn't actually understood why people were arguing against his opinion, I started writting a post to explain what were the reasons why people doesn't share his view, but I grew tired of writting it because there is already so much to read on the matter. So, instead I simply reminded it that his opinions are not a fact, and implied that the answer to his lack of understanding had already been given plenty of times.
People simply don't have anything else to say on the matter. Everything has been already written mostly. Now, most answers are "visibility bumps" or people casually walking in to post their opinion on the matter.

But this debate is far from over, as long as some people will not be satisfied with it, and I wouldn't be surprised if it started again once more after this week live-letter if they talk about BLU (and funny enough, I actually don't know if they will... of even if they should).

And I even do encourage people to voice their opinion and keep this debate alive. It's just that I think there is a good and a bad way of doing it. And so far, there was quite a lot of misunderstanding coming from either "side", so I can't really consider it a good debate. Curious to see how it will evolve. Not sure that I'll still want to be a part of it though.

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Edit: "Quick" answers for these points:

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Am still curious about what you thought was shady and what contradictions there were but maybe you can explain in that thread.

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For the "shady" arguments, it was about that part:

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No other main FF title had more that 30 blue magic spells besides FFXI. No other main FF title let you make builds besides FFXI. No other main FF title excluded blue mage from the full game after it was unlocked besides FFXIV.

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The "30 blue magic spell" was not put in context. A flat number without a context or a ratio is meaningless. For example, FFV had 30 Blue Magic, 18 Black Magic and 18 White Magic, which shows how much Blue Magic there can be compared to other forms of magic.
When it comes to "builds", while I understand what you mean, we still have the core aspect of the choice being given to the player in regards to what skill they want to learn/use. You were being nitpicky about one single aspect, while the rest was still relevant.
Also, excluding FFXI didn't make sense. It's the closest FF title that we can use as a comparison, so putting it aside is a bit unfair. Besides, speaking about "BLU identity" across the franchise doesn't mean excluding one title simply because it didn't fit your point. FFXI BLU is still a BLU, and still contributes to BLU's identity in its way. No reason to consider it more or less legitimate than any other kind of Blue Magic.
Finally, the last point is quite hard to swallow as it doesn't serve any purpose and has no weight. I could as easily say that no FF title than VIII made "Blue Magic" as a Limit Break thing. So what? What if BLU is a limited job in FFXIV? It's especially hard to read since "your side" loves to bring the argument that FFXIV BLU could be its own interpretation and doesn't have to be exactly like what it was in the previous titles. Well, that's pretty much what they did. But somehow, that argument only applies as long as it's an "unlimited job"...

As for the contradictions, you started by linking a reddit thread showing a BLU concept. This concept was for a Tank role, and got its skills simply by leveling, like other jobs.
But you then spoke about the "learning" methods for BLU, which contradicts with the way this reddit thread was presented in great details with each skill being learned at specific levels. No special "learning method". You also spoke about you liking the idea of a job not being tied to the trinity system, which -again- contradicts with the BLU concept you linked which was stricly a Tank. Finally, you spoke about Trine and Grand Delta to "AoE down mobs"... When only Trine was described in that post, and was an AoE mostly used for enmity and damage reduction to be used in the "tank stance". I don't know if you could "AoE down mobs" with great effectiveness with such a defensive move.
In short, while you said that you were "really hoping for a tank like this person's write up", the rest of your post didn't felt like it shared a lot of ideas with that reddit thread. I guess you simply liked the "general concept/idea", but it wasn't clear what you actually wanted out of that reddit post and your own expectations.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Any examples of what could be lost if SE were to make blu unlimited in a way that left the Carnival content alone? I haven't seen many that have just said "lift the restrictions and let it run free" which I'm sure you will also agree would be bad. So I'm curious if you feel there is more than that.

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Three things:
- Making a regular job is -and we've seen it with Heavensward's balance and the fact that they reduced to two jobs for Stormblood- something that requires a lot of work. The ressources invested into making BLU as a regular job are ressources that wouldn't be put somewhere else.
- People say "I've waited 5 years to main that job!", but they have absolutly no idea how regular job BLU would actually play and if they'd have enjoyed it. So, to continue on the previous point, there is no way to say that the ressources invested would have produced a good and balanced BLU. Would you personally main it if you didn't enjoy its gameplay? A lot of people put gameplay first.
- While you and others are actually advocating for a regular BLU that wouldn't change anything to the aspects of the limited BLU as we know it, there is absolutly no guarantee that SE wouldn't choose a solution going that way.

It's all about risks & ressources management and acceptation. Most people who are in favour of keeping limited BLU as it is would be totally okay if SE was to come to us saying "we managed to work on a good and enjoyable non-limited version of the Blue Mage fitting the mold and that leaves the content of the limited BLU absolutly unchanged, while also not using any ressources that we would've used somewhere else". But that's a really big and unrealistic 'if'. So while people satisfied with limited BLU obviously would want everyone to be happy, the risk seems too big for them (me included), while limited BLU is a good compromise for a job that otherwise had very little chance to ever come in FFXIV. These are the concerns Skyskip failed to understand or willingly dismissed, while they are legitimate.
It's a "good enough & better than nothing" approach. What "your side" disagrees on is the "good enough" part and the fact that you are indeed willing to take the risk. That's basically all of what separates our opinions. You see the risk and ressources investment as acceptable, "we" don't. It's as simple as that, really.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

The debate was being slow lately because everyone is tired of seeing and writting the same arguments over and over again. Heck, even when I read that Skyskip admitted that he didn't actually understood why people were arguing against his opinion, I started writting a post to explain what were the reasons why people doesn't share his view, but I grew tired of writting it because there is already so much to read on the matter. So, instead I simply reminded it that his opinions are not a fact, and implied that the answer to his lack of understanding had already been given plenty of times.
People simply don't have anything else to say on the matter. Everything has been already written mostly. Now, most answers are "visibility bumps" or people casually walking in to post their opinion on the matter.

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Are you talking about when he said this?

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Originally Posted by Skyskip

There is no good argument for making it limited, full stop.

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I think he meant it as "there's no good argument to keep it limited only" but I could be wrong. I can understand how others could view it as him saying that there is no argument to be made in favor of the content if those people believe that limited jobs are necessary for that content. He will have to clarify as it can be taken in more than one way. I've definitely been guilty of wording things poorly in this debate.

As for his other recent post in this thread, it was the three of us wondering why people are opposed to a middle ground. It's one thing to believe it can't happen but there have been people saying they don't want there to be an unlimited blu AND for there to still be the limited blu game play. So those that are excited for the side content would still have it, those that think limited blu is the best interpretation of the job could still have it, and those of us that want to main a job that is true to what blu is to us can get that. I don't know what to say for those that feel the limited job concept is the best thing to be announced for the game and the one person that did say they are fine getting a caster that is named blue mage and that's all that mattered to them.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

But this debate is far from over, as long as some people will not be satisfied with it, and I wouldn't be surprised if it started again once more after this week live-letter if they talk about BLU (and funny enough, I actually don't know if they will... of even if they should).

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I also think it will build up again after the live letter no matter what happens and again around the patch and then just keep going after that. I do think that it could die down due to some of us that want an unlimited blu feeling strongly that limited jobs are a bad direction for the game that we are unsubbing and won't be able to post anymore. That it will become more and more one sided until the debate is over. This is already happening to some degree and I'll be gone soon as well.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

And I even do encourage people to voice their opinion and keep this debate alive. It's just that I think there is a good and a bad way of doing it. And so far, there was quite a lot of misunderstanding coming from either "side", so I can't really consider it a good debate. Curious to see how it will evolve. Not sure that I'll still want to be a part of it though.

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There is definitely misunderstanding and toxicity coming from both sides and it's sad. I'm getting bummed out that we are unable to come together instead of risking so much and we are all end up disappointed or angry. I feel that for some that are pro limited blu, that they fear giving up anything now that they have this kind of focus from the devs and that they will lose the content if they do. I think they are risking the content ending up like Diadem by not trying to compromise.

At this point, how do we know it would be viable without being broken or overpowered, and that making it unlimited would result in it getting nerfed to take too much away to where the class was no longer fun?

I think it'd be far wiser to let the class come out and see how it functions before automatically assuming either that SE is 'right' or 'wrong' on this matter in making it limited.

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

At this point, how do we know it would be viable without being broken or overpowered, and that making it unlimited would result in it getting nerfed to take too much away to where the class was no longer fun?

I think it'd be far wiser to let the class come out and see how it functions before automatically assuming either that SE is 'right' or 'wrong' on this matter in making it limited.

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For the first question I'd say you could say that about anything, many said the same thing about Summoner but I feel seeing Demi-Bahamut was well worth the "what if?".

And for the later, yes and no. Yes we can wait and see if the content is fun, certainly we should probably wait a bit before saying it's 100% awful, no way I can enjoy it - unless you know you hate gathering things but like.. I think you were guaranteed to dislike blue mage then lol. Also, then no because if you know you don't like something, for example gathering, then you don't really need to wait and see if that's a core tenant of the design (you don't like red, next gear set is locked to red exclusively, all of it, safe to say you're like "....but why? at least let me dye it").

Example: Not only do you hate cilantro but you're allergic to it. Now I add cilantro into a dish and you're like "uh.. serious? no thanks" and I respond with "just wait and see, I'm sure this time it'll taste great!" lol. Of course it's not a perfect example (some hyperbole for fun :3) because you could say "I've had it before and I know I don't like it" while we've not had exactly this blue mage before, but we are all easily capable of imagining not being able to play our favorite theme'd job in end game content (which is the current state of things). Doesn't mean you have to agree with others but it should be easy to temporarily equip empathy job stone here and see that you don't have to wait and see to not like the news of something.

Maybe a better example SE: next three patches will be gatherer only content, we've really outdone ourselves and invented some really engaging new gatherer content! Gatherers: OMG YES, MY BURFDAY!!! Everyone who doesn't like gathering/DoL: ..................... It is unnecessary for the non-gatherers to wait and see to know that this is not going to be their favorite decision lol.

The arguments are getting muddled at this point, well a long while ago... but even if you don't think blue mage needs to be end game available I'm sure some people can find some empathy and reason in that you don't need to try every single thing to know it wont be to your personal liking. And before "the game doesn't need to be designed to you", yes of course obviously but we do have the forums to voice our desire for somethings to be that way. So.. here we are with that lol.

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

At this point, how do we know it would be viable without being broken or overpowered, and that making it unlimited would result in it getting nerfed to take too much away to where the class was no longer fun?

I think it'd be far wiser to let the class come out and see how it functions before automatically assuming either that SE is 'right' or 'wrong' on this matter in making it limited.

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There hasn't been many that are suggesting to just lift the restrictions and that's it. Most of us advocating for unlimited blu know that there will be a lot of work done to have it be balanced and not break the game. Especially if SE leaves the content that people are excited for as again a lot of us are in favor of that type of content as well. This is why there have been posts saying for them to make it part of the 6.0 expac.

The compromise that some of us would like to see the community get on board with is the unlimited blu people supporting the people that want solo content. The solo content people supporting the unlimited blu people. The solo people getting blu first and those of us wanting unlimited blu would get it later. Then maybe after that we will have to accept patches and/or some content coming out at a slower rate but more types of players getting the content they want.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

many said the same thing about Summoner but I feel seeing Demi-Bahamut was well worth the "what if?".

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Because even then we didn't know. There were a multitude of complaints, some of which turned out to be valid, others which turned out to not be relevant...because we really didn't know. (I believe the ones that were found to be valid were mostly fixed in early 4.1 IIRC)

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Originally Posted by Shougun

And for the later, yes and no. Yes we can wait and see if the content is fun, certainly we should probably wait a bit before saying it's 100% awful, no way I can enjoy it - unless you know you hate gathering things but like.. I think you were guaranteed to dislike blue mage then lol.
..snip..

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Okay so are you implying that people won't like BLU at all, or that they'll only like it if they can play the class in random non-premade group content? The former is possible (I mean, I still don't particularly enjoy MCH)...but irrelevant, because making the job limited or not would have zero impact either way. The latter is simply incorrect. There's not a single class that I only enjoy if I can play it in a random dungeon group and could never enjoy in a premade group or solo. I dislike MCH solo, I dislike MCH in premades, I dislike MCH in random group content. On the flip side, I highly enjoy SCH solo, I enjoy SCH in premades, and I enjoy SCH in group content. If SCH became a limited class tomorrow that could no longer do non-premade duty-finder content...I'd still enjoy SCH.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

Maybe a better example SE: next three patches will be gatherer only content, we've really outdone ourselves and invented some really engaging new gatherer content! Gatherers: OMG YES, MY BURFDAY!!! Everyone who doesn't like gathering/DoL: ..................... It is unnecessary for the non-gatherers to wait and see to know that this is not going to be their favorite decision lol.

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That's really not relevant. It's not like they're making BLU and skipping a new dungeon and skipping a new alliance raid and skipping a new race, etc. They're doing that in addition to all these other things. Your example is more akin to deciding that you don't like Stormblood because they added spearfishing and you don't like Fisher (or you think they should have added a 'Looking for Fish' queue to the Duty Finder instead) so everything else that happened this expansion is moot.

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Originally Posted by Shougun

but even if you don't think blue mage needs to be end game available I'm sure some people can find some empathy and reason in that you don't need to try every single thing to know it wont be to your personal liking.

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I actually don't know at this point. Maybe I'll hate it like I don't particularly care for MCH, maybe I'll play it and want to do everything in it, maybe I'll love it just how it is....it's not out yet, I haven't been able to try it yet...I don't know. (And that was kinda my point.)

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Originally Posted by jon041065

There hasn't been many that are suggesting to just lift the restrictions and that's it. Most of us advocating for unlimited blu know that there will be a lot of work done to have it be balanced and not break the game. Especially if SE leaves the content that people are excited for as again a lot of us are in favor of that type of content as well. This is why there have been posts saying for them to make it part of the 6.0 expac.

The compromise that some of us would like to see the community get on board with is the unlimited blu people supporting the people that want solo content. The solo content people supporting the unlimited blu people. The solo people getting blu first and those of us wanting unlimited blu would get it later. Then maybe after that we will have to accept patches and/or some content coming out at a slower rate but more types of players getting the content they want.

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That's actually a huge part of why I'm saying 'maybe wait before demanding.'

Imagine this: They release BLU and it's the most awesome class ever and you love it in everything you do and want to take it everywhere so you push really really hard to get them to make it unlimited because by golly we should be able to raid as BLU and do DF queues ans BLU and everything.

SE does something most MMO companies are bad about...and listens to us, and goes 'okay, let's make BLU unlimited.' So they take away our favorite spells because they're too powerful for premade group content and take away our method of gaining spells because it's too hard on new players to the class and take away or stop updating the Masked Carnival (akin to Gold Saucer) because it's no longer something they have dev hours to focus on and within 1-2 expansions it's basically red mage with different animations. If you think that can't happen, I invite you to look at 4.0 SMN/SCH/WAR after they were 'too powerful' in late HW...yes, they're mostly fixed now, but they're not what they were. Or think about all the things that they just barely added in 4.0 for SMN that people have been asking for since before 2.0 (like Bahamut). Or think about the changes they made to 4.0 MCH that made it so people who loved 3.0 MCH hate it now.

Or let's say they go really extreme...and decide to not add the class until such a time that they feel it fits the model the other classes have in unlimited content...and we never see BLU in FFXIV at all...ever. Wouldn't it make more sense to see if what they're offering us now is better than some of the potential alternatives before we throw a fit just because it can't access one small portion of the game?

edit: Example for taking away spells because too powerful...they nerfed SMN to be weaker without Bahamut in 4.0 than it was without in 3.0...basically made it so a more complicated rotation does basically the same percentage of damage.

Example for taking away ways of getting abilities because it's too hard for new players: remember when 'role actions' used to be 'cross-class' abilities and PLD could cast Protect and Stoneskin? Remember when Stoneskin existed? Remember when WAR could use Flash?

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

Because even then we didn't know. There were a multitude of complaints, some of which turned out to be valid, others which turned out to not be relevant...because we really didn't know. (I believe the ones that were found to be valid were mostly fixed in early 4.1 IIRC)

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Oh yeah, I don't mean it as in like "BLUE WILL NEVER HAVE ANY BALANCE ISSUES!!" lol. I meant it as in anything can have balance concerns. Of course if we suggest blue comes into duty finder with a working level 5 death.. well.. ... hah. Balance destroyed lol. But the people who are asking for Blue to work in duty finder, usually, say ways for that to work. Some ways to work more or less complicated than others but I just meant to say just because there are (and will be for everything that has to do with combat) balance concerns doesn't mean we shouldn't ask if we can do it or not. That's all :D

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

Okay so are you implying that people won't like BLU at all, or that they'll only like it if they can play the class in random non-premade group content? The former is possible (I mean, I still don't particularly enjoy MCH)...but irrelevant, because making the job limited or not would have zero impact either way. The latter is simply incorrect. There's not a single class that I only enjoy if I can play it in a random dungeon group and could never enjoy in a premade group or solo. I dislike MCH solo, I dislike MCH in premades, I dislike MCH in random group content. On the flip side, I highly enjoy SCH solo, I enjoy SCH in premades, and I enjoy SCH in group content. If SCH became a limited class tomorrow that could no longer do non-premade duty-finder content...I'd still enjoy SCH.

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I'm implying people who don't like cilantro don't need to try cilantro bread to know they wont like it (doesn't have to be food based lol). I am definitely not implying that all people wont like it though, or that there wont be some people who like some of it. For example you said you were making me cilantro bread but I also love cheese, so if you could please slap some cheese on the side and I'll roast it myself that'd be awesome. (I don't know why I'm using food so much, must be hungry). So for myself I think I WILL like the blue mage solo aspect and weird spells, but I also know that I WILL always want to have blue mage in duty finder and will always be sad that they didn't find a way to make it happen. And I'm not just asking for them to make it happen without attempting to suggest ways that I think would work/satisfy me (not suggesting I've satisfied everyone).

So I think perhaps my example made you mistake my point, could be my fault.. food? lol. To reiterate I'm implying that it is very possible with high accuracy to judge how you'll respond before you've tried it. Like if you're into women, or men, with long hair and then they say "what if I shaved it all off"... It's not hard to be like "you know what, you do you but.. I don't think it'd be my favorite haircut..... since you're asking..".

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

That's really not relevant. It's not like they're making BLU and skipping a new dungeon and skipping a new alliance raid and skipping a new race, etc. They're doing that in addition to all these other things. Your example is more akin to deciding that you don't like Stormblood because they added spearfishing and you don't like Fisher (or you think they should have added a 'Looking for Fish' queue to the Duty Finder instead) so everything else that happened this expansion is moot.

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It's relevant in that you can know you don't like something or not..... That is entirely relevant. If you like battle content and SE says "next year is ONLY gathering content" then you will be annoyed... I'm not sure how you were reading that (probably fault to the silly metaphor I used again :3).

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

I actually don't know at this point. Maybe I'll hate it like I don't particularly care for MCH, maybe I'll play it and want to do everything in it, maybe I'll love it just how it is....it's not out yet, I haven't been able to try it yet...I don't know. (And that was kinda my point.)

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I know your point, that is whether you'll like SE's version or not and it's not fair to say there wont be merit to it without trying it first. I was saying you don't need to know if you'll like SE's version to know if you will be happy or sad you can't play with others (in end game, current content - when it's no longer current even in SE's you may).

From reading their info I think I'll like SE's version, but I will also believe it to be a mistake to make Blue Mage exclusively limited and have suggested ways to maybe possibly make it work under both systems. That I've said before that I would like to see them work on the concept of Advanced Job rather than limited job (I'm not really in love with the wording "unlimited" lol).

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Originally Posted by Fyce

Maybe you would understand if you tried, instead of stating your opinion like a fact.
You don't get to decide if people's concerns about what you ask for are justified or not.

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I've tried. I've been in this fight since day one bouncing from reddit to here. I've seen everything. I remain unconvinced.

You don't get to decide what I can and can't do either. Look, I understand there's a desire for more solo content, but to actively fight against a middle ground where both sides can be happy is unjustifiable to me. And this is coming from me- someone who is, for the most part, a solo player.

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

SE does something most MMO companies are bad about...and listens to us, and goes 'okay, let's make BLU unlimited.' So they take away our favorite spells because they're too powerful for premade group content and take away our method of gaining spells because it's too hard on new players to the class and take away or stop updating the Masked Carnival (akin to Gold Saucer) because it's no longer something they have dev hours to focus on and within 1-2 expansions it's basically red mage with different animations. If you think that can't happen, I invite you to look at 4.0 SMN/SCH/WAR after they were 'too powerful' in late HW...yes, they're mostly fixed now, but they're not what they were. Or think about all the things that they just barely added in 4.0 for SMN that people have been asking for since before 2.0 (like Bahamut). Or think about the changes they made to 4.0 MCH that made it so people who loved 3.0 MCH hate it now.

Or let's say they go really extreme...and decide to not add the class until such a time that they feel it fits the model the other classes have in unlimited content...and we never see BLU in FFXIV at all...ever. Wouldn't it make more sense to see if what they're offering us now is better than some of the potential alternatives before we throw a fit just because it can't access one small portion of the game?.

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I think the overall solution to avoiding this problem is the 'two job stone' mechanic that's been kicked around since this job has been unveiled. Let BLU have two crystal types, one for solo content and one for group content and balance the group content abilities to be usable as such. There's already precedence for this mechanic in the same way that jobs change mechanically when brought into a PvP area, and it appears that BLU's own lore comes down to you just buying the stones straight up from some potential charlatan anyway. So it's not like the stones themselves are terribly rare.

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

That's actually a huge part of why I'm saying 'maybe wait before demanding.'

Imagine this: They release BLU and it's the most awesome class ever and you love it in everything you do and want to take it everywhere so you push really really hard to get them to make it unlimited because by golly we should be able to raid as BLU and do DF queues ans BLU and everything.

SE does something most MMO companies are bad about...and listens to us, and goes 'okay, let's make BLU unlimited.' So they take away our favorite spells because they're too powerful for premade group content and take away our method of gaining spells because it's too hard on new players to the class and take away or stop updating the Masked Carnival (akin to Gold Saucer) because it's no longer something they have dev hours to focus on and within 1-2 expansions it's basically red mage with different animations. If you think that can't happen, I invite you to look at 4.0 SMN/SCH/WAR after they were 'too powerful' in late HW...yes, they're mostly fixed now, but they're not what they were. Or think about all the things that they just barely added in 4.0 for SMN that people have been asking for since before 2.0 (like Bahamut). Or think about the changes they made to 4.0 MCH that made it so people who loved 3.0 MCH hate it now.

Or let's say they go really extreme...and decide to not add the class until such a time that they feel it fits the model the other classes have in unlimited content...and we never see BLU in FFXIV at all...ever. Wouldn't it make more sense to see if what they're offering us now is better than some of the potential alternatives before we throw a fit just because it can't access one small portion of the game?

edit: Example for taking away spells because too powerful...they nerfed SMN to be weaker without Bahamut in 4.0 than it was without in 3.0...basically made it so a more complicated rotation does basically the same percentage of damage.

Example for taking away ways of getting abilities because it's too hard for new players: remember when 'role actions' used to be 'cross-class' abilities and PLD could cast Protect and Stoneskin? Remember when Stoneskin existed? Remember when WAR could use Flash?

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1. Why would they have to take away favorite spells? Not all of us believe they have to do exactly the same things they did in previous FF games. Most asking for unlimited blu understand that the spells won't be exactly the same. Fyce asked about this in another thread and several of us said we are fine with spells feeling similar when they are used when compared to past FF games. It won't be what everyone wants but neither will a gunblade job, dancer, puppet master, beast master, etc. Also don't forget that many of us are asking for limited blu and the Carnival to not be removed.

2. Advance jobs or jobs that have some barrier to entry are a thing in FF games and a lot would be fine with that. They could keep the learning method they decided on. We don't know the chance of learning a spell yet besides that it will be "rare". They could make it something like a 20% chance to learn a spell and I think that would be fine.

3. There's some saying there's no point in the Carnival and it was a waste of resources. Most on the unlimited blu side have said the Carnival looks great and hopes SE leaves it in if they were to listen to our requests. As for the dev hours thing, that's why I said we would possibly have to accept a slow patch pace. Give them the time to work on these various things.

4. Why would an unlimited blu end up as a reskinned rdm? Are all the casters just reskins of each other? Two points here. First being that there are still other mechanics for casters beyond what we already have in the game. Second is that we don't know how they would make unlimited blu. They could make it the first multi role job for example.

5. I still remember when BRD was the best overall job for raiding in 2.0. SMN has taken a long time to get to be a spot it is in now but 3.0 smn was still accepted more than it was in 2.0. It started to become something more than a WoW warlock clone. Not everyone is going to like every iteration of jobs. Should they not add the gunblade job because it might be changed in a way people don't like in the 6.0 expac?

6. Yoshi P said that he wasn't sure how to make rdm work in the game before but they ended up making it work to mostly positive reception. I personally would like it to have some more melee in the game play but it's a fun job.

Limited blu can't access a large portion of the game.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/a...8&d=1543360586

For some of us, this is the most important type of content. So the Carnival can be amazing and we could want to see more of it. That still won't make up for not being able to play as blu where it matters the most to us.

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

edit: Example for taking away spells because too powerful...they nerfed SMN to be weaker without Bahamut in 4.0 than it was without in 3.0...basically made it so a more complicated rotation does basically the same percentage of damage.

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What spell did they remove in this example? If your point is that they added new game play but had to balance out SMN to keep the same output that the devs were happy with then I'm not seeing the problem. It is unfortunate that there is probably some that loved SMN before 4.0 but that's the nature of mmos.

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

Example for taking away ways of getting abilities because it's too hard for new players: remember when 'role actions' used to be 'cross-class' abilities and PLD could cast Protect and Stoneskin? Remember when Stoneskin existed? Remember when WAR could use Flash?

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There's a difference between "go level up these jobs to have access to all your potential abilities" and "here's a lot of abilities you can go learn". We don't know if all spells will be necessary to finish the Carnival and which ones will be part of a "mandatory" build for soloing. There's a large chance that players won't learn all the spells because they don't view them as being important to what they are wanting to do with the job.

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Originally Posted by Skyskip

I think the overall solution to avoiding this problem is the 'two job stone' mechanic that's been kicked around since this job has been unveiled. Let BLU have two crystal types, one for solo content and one for group content and balance the group content abilities to be usable as such. There's already precedence for this mechanic in the same way that jobs change mechanically when brought into a PvP area, and it appears that BLU's own lore comes down to you just buying the stones straight up from some potential charlatan anyway. So it's not like the stones themselves are terribly rare.

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Or even just a toggle that can be changed within like a city or inn room. I'm not a programmer but I'd imagine that it would be possible to take the automatic switching of abilities when you go into PVP and make a manual switch that can achieve the same thing of swapping between limited and unlimited blu.

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Originally Posted by Asheilin

Not able to read every post since I last visited but do we know what the JP forums are saying about this topic, if they are?

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Last I heard, the JP forums had a similar split of close to 50/50 in how they are viewing limited blu. Just that the discussion is less abrasive and not in multiple threads like we have.

It's been even longer since I heard someone mention how it's going on the German and French forums but it was a similar situation back then.

Not able to read every post since I last visited but do we know what the JP forums are saying about this topic, if they are?

I'd like to see BLU able to do all the things, like every other job. Keep the learning mechanic, but have BLU just gain all of its abilities for its level when you do group content. Give the BLU a job limiter option. Job limiter on means abilities are balanced for group play and all abilities are available based exclusively on level. Job limiter off means abilities are at full power for solo play and require learning first. There could even be abilities that are only usable with the limiter off and don't have a limiter on counterpart, which allows for countless learnable abilities without cluttering up the balance of group play. Job limiter would just be a toggle ability that is forced on during normal group content, but with the option to toggle it at any time during solo play or uncapped group content (such as entering a low level dungeon as super high level characters).

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Originally Posted by jon041065

1. Why would they have to take away favorite spells? .

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Spell too powerful, too hard to obtain but necessary, etc. I'm not saying they *would* do it, but they could decide that they had to. Of course there are ways around this that others mentioned, such as two job stones.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

They could make it something like a 20% chance

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Sure, they could. Or they could make it equivalent to bird drops from prior expansion trials. Or anywhere in between. Or worse.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Are all the casters just reskins of each other?.

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To an extent many classes are basically reskinned versions of another. Cure = Physick = Benefic, Succor = Aspected Helios = Medica/Medica II, Rage of Halone combo = Butcher's Block combo = Power Slash combo. What currently makes BLU unique, as far as we can tell, is learning monster abilities and using them. If not for that, for all we know it could be like SMN without the pets and dots or RDM without dualcast, etc. Not saying it WOULD be, but it's a risk you're taking in trying to tell them to convert something with unlimited potential into something that fits the balance aspects of the game.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

6. Yoshi P said that he wasn't sure how to make rdm work in the game before but they ended up making it work to mostly positive reception. I personally would like it to have some more melee in the game play but it's a fun job.

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And Yoshi P who figured out how to make RDM work said he couldn't figure out how to make BLU work as unlimited. That carries more weight than somebody who'd never done it before, yes?

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Limited blu can't access a large portion of the game.

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Limited BLU can't troll duty finder without having any abilities like the 272 tank in another thread did his group in Castrum, you mean?

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Originally Posted by jon041065

That still won't make up for not being able to play as blu where it matters the most to us.

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Would not being able to play BLU at all make it better?

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Originally Posted by jon041065

What spell did they remove in this example?

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They removed Sustain (brought it back in 4.1 after they realized how much it screwed people over), removed cross-class abilities in favor of 'role actions' (it was pointless, but OUAT SMN could cast 'Blizzard'), etc. In similar breaths they took 'Protect' and 'Stoneskin' away from PLD (took 'Stoneskin away from everybody, actually).

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Originally Posted by jon041065

We don't know if all spells will be necessary

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There's also a chance that, if unlimited, certain abilities might be seen as 'mandatory' and players get greifed for not bringing them (or hold back entire groups by not bringing them). Tell me what you would do in O12S with a WHM who only cast 'Cure' the entire run, or, more closely, a BLM who only cast 'Blizzard'? In the case of BLU, they might only KNOW Blizzard (well, the equivalent).

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

To an extent many classes are basically reskinned versions of another. Cure = Physick = Benefic, Succor = Aspected Helios = Medica/Medica II, Rage of Halone combo = Butcher's Block combo = Power Slash combo. What currently makes BLU unique, as far as we can tell, is learning monster abilities and using them. If not for that, for all we know it could be like SMN without the pets and dots or RDM without dualcast, etc. Not saying it WOULD be, but it's a risk you're taking in trying to tell them to convert something with unlimited potential into something that fits the balance aspects of the game.

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There are reskinned abilities and guess what? Most of the blue spells will be reskinned abilities even as a limited job. What's the difference between a spell that does water damage and one that does wind damage throughout most of the game? It's only in the Carnival were most of the blue spells will be allowed to work with a different rulebook. That's not saying it's good. I rather they use blu to expand systems in the rest of the game instead of putting it in its own separate box. What you said makes blu unique is what pretty much everyone in this debate is saying is blu's identity. Some have added a few things but almost every one (there was one person that said just slap the blue mage name on a caster) has stated that keeping that identity is important. For some, what the spells have done in past FF games is of very high importance or they just have to feel similar to how they were in the past for others like myself. Those of us that want to main blu would have accepted a full job that learns enemy abilities and uses them as a major part of its game play. It might not be a tank like I was hoping for or how others would have liked to see it but at least it would be something we could main. And if it was just awful, we could give feedback on that and watch what SE would do with it.

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

And Yoshi P who figured out how to make RDM work said he couldn't figure out how to make BLU work as unlimited. That carries more weight than somebody who'd never done it before, yes?

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He didn't say he couldn't figure out how make BLU work as unlimited. The limited version is how he say how it could be fun. Same as how him and his team once thought 2.0 smn and bow mage could be fun.

For rdm, he had said that he saw it as a buffing/debuffing job but there wasn't a support role in the game. I wish that they had used rdm to add a support role or break the trinity in some other way. They didn't but what they gave us is still pretty fun and most players seem to enjoy it.

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

Limited BLU can't troll duty finder without having any abilities like the 272 tank in another thread did his group in Castrum, you mean?

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When did I say to just lift the restrictions and let blu into everything?

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

Would not being able to play BLU at all make it better?

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It would still let those of us that want to main blu have more hope that we could one day than what we have right now. I would have preferred if SE announced BLU as a full job and that the Carnival would be the first in a new type of solo content that would be accessible by all jobs. That this new content would be the Diadem/Eureka of Shadowbringers. Then for an extra bonus, that the Carnival would be coming out in the 4.5 patch. It even would have been fine if they said that BLU would still be capped at 50 to start off with and then brought up to 70 over the coming months before the 5.0 launch.

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

They removed Sustain (brought it back in 4.1 after they realized how much it screwed people over), removed cross-class abilities in favor of 'role actions' (it was pointless, but OUAT SMN could cast 'Blizzard'), etc. In similar breaths they took 'Protect' and 'Stoneskin' away from PLD (took 'Stoneskin away from everybody, actually).

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Sounded like you meant they removed some part of SMN damage ability toolkit to balance out the fact they were getting Bahamut. SMN losing Sustain for awhile did suck but I don't believe their intention was to lower SMN dps with it and that's why the put Sustain back in.

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

There's also a chance that, if unlimited, certain abilities might be seen as 'mandatory' and players get greifed for not bringing them (or hold back entire groups by not bringing them). Tell me what you would do in O12S with a WHM who only cast 'Cure' the entire run, or, more closely, a BLM who only cast 'Blizzard'? In the case of BLU, they might only KNOW Blizzard (well, the equivalent).

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I'd have to kick a person that is playing like that. If they didn't know a spell then would have to tell them it would be a good idea about it. Doesn't mean these interactions have to be done in a rude way. I would try to avoid being rude unless I felt that player was acting in a way that warranted that type of behavior from myself.

Once more, most of us are not asking for the restrictions to just be removed and SE stop there. Unlimited blu could still have the same spell learning method and could be the game's first advance job that takes more work to get up and running. Get that sense of pride and accomplishment. We already touched that the chance to learn spells wouldn't have to be such a rare thing.

Gonna bump this back to the first page. Please consider changing BLU for 6.0, SE.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

And if it was just awful, we could give feedback on that and watch what SE would do with it.

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But for now you need to assume it's going to be terrible and give feedback that it's terrible when you haven't even played it yet?

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Originally Posted by jon041065

He didn't say he couldn't figure out how make BLU work as unlimited. The limited version is how he say how it could be fun. Same as how him and his team once thought 2.0 smn and bow mage could be fun.

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2.0 SMN was fun. I played as 2.0 SMN and enjoyed it, TYVM.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

When did I say to just lift the restrictions and let blu into everything?

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My mistake if you weren't implying that. It seems to have been implied enough in this thread that I was of the belief you were.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

Sounded like you meant they removed some part of SMN damage ability toolkit to balance out the fact they were getting Bahamut. SMN losing Sustain for awhile did suck but I don't believe their intention was to lower SMN dps with it and that's why the put Sustain back in.

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Sustain doesn't do damage. It heals your pet. In group content it'd have zero effect. All it did was make life painful for leveling SMN.

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Originally Posted by jon041065

I'd have to kick a person that is playing like that. If they didn't know a spell then would have to tell them it would be a good idea about it. Doesn't mean these interactions have to be done in a rude way. I would try to avoid being rude unless I felt that player was acting in a way that warranted that type of behavior from myself.

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So you'd have to spend 5min waiting and praying to then kick a BLU that didn't bother to learn any abilities...and then hope they didn't bring a friend who wanted to troll you further. You don't see the problem here?

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Originally Posted by Oreos

Gonna bump this back to the first page. Please consider changing BLU for 6.0, SE.

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You didn't add context so I can't say for sure how much I agree with you so I'll go with "partially".

I'd like to see BLU be a full job that can be mained in the 6.0 expac. I would not like to see the Carnival just left to rot at that time and would prefer SE used it as the framework for solo content for ALL jobs. That this new solo content system be built up into something that that is a pretty good size and have a larger scope of game play. I've put out ideas that would be "diablo-lite" in nature and think would be a lot of fun.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...44#post4825844

The tiered leaderboards was an idea someone from reddit had in a discussion with me.

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

But for now you need to assume it's going to be terrible and give feedback that it's terrible when you haven't even played it yet?

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I never said that BLU would be terrible and have said the opposite actually. I've stated it does look fun but no matter how fun it is doesn't make up for not being able to main it. I'd like to have it as a full job AND the side content.

I get excited seeing the XIV blue spell book and it's similar to how I felt before BLU came to XI. I was thinking of leaving that game and the leader of a LS I was in started to share with me images of how BLU would work in that game. I started to feel excited for the game again and can understand why some are excited to have a "job" that works differently in XIV. I'm not fighting to have what they are excited about to be removed but I would like to be able to have that same excitement I once had that I would be able to main my favorite FF job.

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

2.0 SMN was fun. I played as 2.0 SMN and enjoyed it, TYVM.

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I didn't play it in 2.0 besides leveling a bit. Did get it to 60 during 3.0 so it still had most of the 2.0 gameplay before hitting 52 and I thought it was fun. I also liked bow mage but also like 4.0 brd more.

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

My mistake if you weren't implying that. It seems to have been implied enough in this thread that I was of the belief you were.

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No worries. I think you might be mistaken on what others are trying to say as I don't see many at all pushing for JUST the restrictions to be removed. That would be absurd and a disaster.

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

Sustain doesn't do damage. It heals your pet. In group content it'd have zero effect. All it did was make life painful for leveling SMN.

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I meant in that you might have to heal your pet to prevent it from dying in group content. Having to resummon your pet would be a dps loss.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

So you'd have to spend 5min waiting and praying to then kick a BLU that didn't bother to learn any abilities...and then hope they didn't bring a friend who wanted to troll you further. You don't see the problem here?

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I see it as a problem but not one SE should be solving or at least solve in a way that takes away a choice. I would like them to just handle possible ToS violations and give us more tools to have more control over our choices. Some DF settings like "relaxed", "intermediate", and "serious" settings for what type of players you want to be matched with. Could still mark all three to have what we have now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by galbsadi

So you'd have to spend 5min waiting and praying to then kick a BLU that didn't bother to learn any abilities...and then hope they didn't bring a friend who wanted to troll you further. You don't see the problem here?

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Lots o different opinions here so can't speak for everyone (lol :P), but my personal favorite to work with these issues (and others) is:

Two sided job stone, or two stones literally (I think two sided is conceptually more fun though).

One side is unchained releasing and relying on a particularly dangerous aether in the environment (blue aether?). Lore here is that those not prepared to handle this type can be damaged, and that this type of aether, this mist or fog will you (FF reference), grows over time such that older content has more of it and newer content less. Therefore unchained / untamed mode here is lore'd to work only in party finder / solo and only in content that isn't current.

The other side is chained / tamed. Both sides reference the same book and gear. However because it is a different job stone you can easily have two sets of gear in your armory managed, including your hot bar. That way you don't have to reorganize everything from going OP mode / not, just flip your stone.

Finally in tamed mode there are a set of spells easier to tame into the presence of others and require less blue mist/fog in the dungeon to cast, these spells are highlighted gold (or whatever color). These are skills allowed into duty finder. You may not use duty finder for a level of content you don't have a spell for. Better example you're level 20, at level 18 you learn hip thrust and at level 22 you learn 1,000 needle. Both of these skills are highlighted gold mean you could use them in duty finder. When you queue for the level 21 dungeon you are required to have everything level 21 and below (that's highlighted gold), including hip thrust, before entering but you are not required to have 1,000 needle as it doesn't apply to the dungeon.

Now in this way you will /never/ see a Blue Mage who doesn't have a skill he needs, at least in duty finder. You could still easily find blue mages that don't have X skills in the party finder when unchained, so you'd just need to make sure they're not being in the wrong mode lol (like if your tank was in their sub job "gladiator" for some reason and not paladin). Also to note the does your Blue have X skill in party finder issue is the same for SE's current version.

So Blue Mage in duty finder is balanced around a specific set of skills, just like other jobs, that is derived from their list of abilities they must go out and learn. It is important to note at level 50 they will already have access to near 50 spells. So if you imagine a full book of blue at level 80 is like 100 or so skills. I'm sure SE can make a "tamed" version of 24 skills from that 100 and make it both fun and balanced.

Other thing to note is lets say at 7.0 there is a new level cap increase. Obviously blue mage will be getting a lot of new spells, but at patch intervals. The unchained (non-duty finder) skills can be developed at a later date while the chained ones can be made available just like other jobs. So as soon as new levels come out blue mage is there able to keep playing with their friends, but they will have to go back later and learn the other skills once SE makes them available (for their unchained side at least, they don't "have to").

Not suggesting any of the above is easy, or free - definitely not free lol. But I believe it could work so that everyone gets the blue mage they wanted (if you don't want to main blue mage but would like to do side content then do so, if you want to do both then do so, if you want to just main blue.. then do so). IMO the biggest issue with the above (besides not being free lol) is that it might make Blue Mage seem too cool, as it has so much to do with it. Although like I said before I would be a fan of seeing other "advanced jobs" like puppet master being able to craft unique featured minions and also of course craft their own toolkit (puppet master's puppet), meanwhile beast master having a sort of DoL Sheppard side feature.

We got our first look at BLU and it is hilariously underpowered. So mcuhfor having a ton of OP spells and completely breakign the game? They don't even get LVL 5 Death.


Reddit Comment with some info:

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sundriedrainbow [score hidden] 20 minutes ago So to review:

• Level 5 Death, the exact example given as a reason why BLU is too OP to be allowed in raids, isn't even going to be available (yet)
• Bad Breath is going to do a whopping 50 poison damage plus aoe silence/heavy/slow/paralyze/damage down. Bards had AOE damage down in 2.0, so really the only totally wild thing here that a boss isn't likely to be immune to is the aoe silence. Arcanists already have AOE slow, WHMs have aoe stun. I don't think there's an aoe heavy attack, though, so that's "new".
• Yoshi, in full artifact gear, took multiple hits to kill a level 30 wind sprite, including using the big Shiva Bow Attack
• FATE exp won't be good compared to just grinding on regular mobs, because someone was really offended by the NM train in anemos, I guess
• Potencies shown are hilariously low - 10 potency fish throw/GCD silence, for example. Shiva's Bow didn't seem to do much more than the Water Cannon, which was shown at 120 potency.
• So they intentionally cut BLU off at the knees and it's only intended for the carnivale, sure. Fine. I can accept that. There are no rewards from the carnivale except poetics, gil, and allied seals!

I'm not even angry anymore, I just don't understand what's going on.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

We got our first look at BLU and it is hilariously underpowered. So mcuhfor having a ton of OP spells and completely breakign the game? They don't even get LVL 5 Death.


Reddit Comment with some info:

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Yiiikes. This don't look too good, boss.

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

We got our first look at BLU and it is hilariously underpowered. So mcuhfor having a ton of OP spells and completely breakign the game? They don't even get LVL 5 Death.


Reddit Comment with some info:

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This comment is missing some context from the actual translation Reddit post (err... Discord.)

Level 5 Death is indeed coming, just not until the lvl 60 cap increase.

Yes as of right now we aren't getting any "amazing" rewards just yet, but Yoshi said once people try out the job for the jobs sake, he will be implementing gear and mount rewards later into harder parts of the Carnivale.

https://i.imgur.com/LrpUczF.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/bQumGgh.jpg <<Taken from the Reddit live translation Discord.

Not exactly a vote of confidence that BLU is somehow too OP for party content.


Also, finally was able to get on discord and look at what was there and it's still pretty terrible.


Weapon damage has little to no bearing on your actual damage dealt. It's straight up no designed for normalization at all. Further cements the fact that it will never be let into current content unless it's changed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

Not exactly a vote of confidence that BLU is somehow too OP for party content.


Also, finally was able to get on discord and look at what was there and it's still pretty terrible.


Weapon damage has little to no bearing on your actual damage dealt. It's straight up no designed for normalization at all. Further cements the fact that it will never be let into current content unless it's changed.

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Yeah, I can't exactly say I'm happy with this either. At least it shows that SE's arguments that "BLU would be too powerful" are complete nonsense. Live and learn, I suppose. I pray they realize that the idea of limited jobs isn't a good one and that people, by and large, are responding negatively. I'll play it when it comes out, but I can't say I'm exactly psyched.

If what you say is true that BluMage is underpowered, that is probably a signal that this Blue Mage can be too powerful at some point.

Remember this is a nice surprise patch before Shadowbringer and I don't anticipate this character will be in a dungeon situation until then. But, maybe I am wrong, maybe the point SE is making by releasing this character underpowered is to get him to a point where he is the right level of power so he doesn't dominate the dungeon experience.

Remember those of us who intend to be BLU Mages are really taking this journey together. So, of course, the Blue Mage starts weak but grows over time. I'm not really concerned at all, I just don't want people to be discourage from trying this character. To me it is just the most interesting character.

Remember I played very little of FF7 and I did not play FF11, so for me the point of this game and what makes it interesting are not stats. But I recognize many people do play that way; I think what you are all signaling is this is not the character for you.

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

Weapon damage has little to no bearing on your actual damage dealt.

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Instead the damage comes from your gear, accessories, and how you combine monster abilities.

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Originally Posted by Videra

At least it shows that SE's arguments that "BLU would be too powerful" are complete nonsense.

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There's another job that can inflict, Poison, 10% Damage Down, 40% Heavy, Slow, Blind, and Paralysis that lasts 15 seconds, with a 1 second silence, using one GCD (and it's ON the GCD as well, its recast time is 2.5 seconds)?

And that's off one ability out of 24 possible ones equipped?

Seems pretty clear to me that once you start factoring in a fully established BLU with a solid collection of abilities, you're talking about a job that does in fact become too powerful for normal play.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BubblyBoar

We got our first look at BLU and it is hilariously underpowered. So mcuhfor having a ton of OP spells and completely breakign the game? They don't even get LVL 5 Death.


Reddit Comment with some info:

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So SE why exactly arent they then able to go into recent content? Was it really so bad to just give them certain skills as a simple rotation for recent content and the rest for solo play? What fun will it be to slowly kill the same trash monsters again and again, since even Fates wont give the best exp? If the death skill even just comes later (or maybe not if they decide to take it out before they raise the cap) why not make it so that certain spells are simply not allowed in certain content?

About adding more mounts and stuff later: This can just be a useless promise too. Remember how they said that we would get more egi glamours in later patches? Its not 100% sure that it will happen and who knows, maybe people wont play it long enough and they drop it anyway..we should not have these: "but it might get better later" things, we should have great things now.